People Before Profit Alliance

by Davy Carlin Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:36

Anon 'some' good points - although the 'real thing' bit - Well?

by mags - none Thu Dec 29, 2005 06:03 magscurley at hotmail dot com

what u were fuckin mesmerised or summit, sent in ! What r u like, r we supposed to believe the swp put u in a stupor or what

by chose to remain anon Tue Dec 27, 2005 03:36

The SWP over the last few years has a serious problem, one that it's message is being lost as more "real" organisations already cover the areas they are trying to build from

On the one hand they are trying to engage with the new layers of "grass roots" activists, and making an unholy mess of it. If one was to try and influence a group of activists already suspisous of political parties they could not possibly go about it in a worse way. Some of these activists were brought into Globalise Resistance and haven't returned since. Another layer went into the IAWM and even on such a limited progam (oppose the war in Iraq) the swp managed to alienate most indepentdently minded members, especially the more radically minded youth. Ironically enough in trying to win these activists the swp diluted themselves so much the activists themselves became more radicalised than the revolutionaries and split with them for two reasons, one democracy (or the lack of) and two because the swp were being too conservative, especially when it came to protests at shannon airport.

And although the SWP does it's best to try and win them over actual Grass Roots organisations such as Grassroots Gathering and more youthful ones like Dissent will always be more attractive. Why join a stale diluted version when the real thing is available.

When it comes to the socialists the SWP have trurned a very pale pink when compared to their Socialist Party rivals, while the swp has been toneing down their rhetoric and softening up their image the spers are going the opposite way if anything. So again why join the pale imitation when the real thing is right there. While the Sp seem to be moving away from community campainging into more generalised political work the SWP is moving away from more political work and into community campaigning. So to any aspiring young socialist why join the softer swp when the better established Socialist Party are there anyway?

As for electoral politics, Sinn Fein are a serious contender and even the Socialist Party has a TD and a handful of councillers, so again why bother with the pale imitation,

Enviormentalism ditto, The pale and dilluted SWP has gone from being the "real revolutionary party" to something so dilluted, they have even lost their student base, which today is alot more militant and seems to be attaracted to anarchist ideas. Then agian why join the SWP when the WSM and Dissent exist.

Ironically by trying to be all things to all people the SWP is becoming nothing and elbowed out by the "real thing" and finding less and less room in the political market.

Alliance after Alliance and front after front is not the sign of a healthy political group. Its not the sign confidence if anything it reeks of desperation. Maybe this the latest alliance will work out but I think even the SWP in their hearts doubht it.

When may ask why the swp are doing this, for recruitment? for electoral reasons but then that just begs the question why again? With the politics of the party diluted so much maybe they should ask themselves that question.

by D Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:49

Markin -

You call me dishonest - for simply giving facts, to which I have asked you as to what is not factual, to which I find no reply

You have stated 'I am axe grinding' for giving an uncensored account of what I had experinced at the event,

Then you attempt to mis - interput what I say, while in tandem attempting to patronise me,

Then you state, the conference had 'real representation from activists all throughout Belfast and further--migrant workers, anti-racists, trade unionists' Where else would you get a chance to pull together immigrants and community workers from the Village?


All this without stating that they had attended the ARN meetings and events, which has a proud history off doing so, not only in tens but in hundreds and thousands. And as stated, to which it was then eventually advertised as been hosted as an ARN conference, rather than the SWP global justice thingy – due to the ARN’s credibility. {Dishonesty?}.

{Indeed only very recently. a few weeks ago, it was I who had sent on the details of such community workers who dealt with the Village area on to the ARN steering committee and de facto to the SWP. Indeed it was again I who against much criticism at the time that had had much of the direct contact with such representatives in the Village.

{And although I have since stood down from the ARN steering group as a founding member I nevertheless am still an active member and send on various details to the ARN steering group of those who contact me.

{THE SWP} They are on to something'

On to what exactly, given that the SWP organiser, who also organised the thing, who also had sat at the table to collect tickets {and the lists etc} had said that only around 100 people had attended the conference overall, in which the majority came to either the ARN meetings or where students?

Again as I said it was a good initiative, but after stating I was dishonest, while attempting to patronise and mis - interrupt me{revise}, and while making accusations – and so seeing me ask you as to what is not factual, with still no reply, you then further state -


'Davy: move on. You’re better than this crap'

Give me a break.

As for Indymedia being -

'home of the most sectarian anti-sectarians on this island'

Well I have heard it called many things from similar minded people, but the reality is that many many genuine activists write and participate in it. {Indeed I know 'Markin' that not only does the SWP leadership read it but some of their members write on it as 'Anon's' etc

I had once said while still in the Belfast SWP that why such leaderships told their members it was a swamp - a thingy for sectarians etc, is that they feared the debate, Indeed they use such words and attacks as an avenue to attempt to keep their members away from it.

In reality, as I have always stated it is used to attempt to brush genuine concerns under the carpet or to attempt to side step them. {Because if their members know not of what is being raised by genuine activists against them – then how can they question}

Indeed the very thing you are doing now - as when I have asked you to state what I have said that is not factual, your response is to attempt to brush it under the carpet or to the side {with the use of attempted attacks etc}

Authoritarianism and Dogmatic mindset will be shown up on such sites as Indymedia and that is what is also feared.

Open access to open debate should not be feared, and more especially not censored,

{ but such organisations and individuals do and will fear such as they do not want to see questions that they fear to which they cannot answer} –

- Indeed Indymedia stands on shoulders when it comes to providing such open access.

And therefore all I can say finally is -

'Markin, Move on and over' there are still some SWP members who are better than this crap you are spouting. D.

by kvm Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:30

Happy to reply to your question, socialist. No of course I don't think that it is only the SWP who fight in broad based campaigns. Don't be silly. As a socialist I support anyone fighting against capitalism. That would be the difference between us. Sometimes that means you end up supporting some people, whose politics and methods you don't care for too much, but that is the essence of the non-sectarian approach. Another aspect of non-sectarianism is that you should try to avoid personal abuse. You were very quick to arrive at the conclusion that I am arrogant and delusional. Try being a little more friendly, comrade.

by markin Mon Oct 24, 2005 23:05

his ghost would have been a lot more coherent than the poser above--not merely a badman, but a very stupid one apparently. and if i can read through the gibberish, in this and in the previous post addressed to 's', you both seem distressed that the swp considers indymedia a swamp. but almost this entire thread confirms just that. the home of the most sectarian anti-sectarians on this island.

socialist: what exactly is it in ann's assessment of the swp that you disagree with? she doesn't write in it that the rest of the left is shit, just that the swp is there when there' a fight to be hand. problem with that?

davy: move on. you're better than this crap.

by Trotsky's Ghost Mon Oct 24, 2005 19:02

Dear comrades of the swp,

I note that your keen revolutionary senses have unerringly detected the petite bourgeoise and counter-revolutionary instincts of the reformist running dogs who flock to this place, mensheviks and Kautskyites to a man.

Yes, the foul stench of the swamp permeates this place. You are right to leave it to the sectarians, lest it blunt your revolutionary virility, discipline and clarity of purpose. You have real work to do, masses of ordinary workers to lead. It is the fields, factories and workshops where your revolutionary steel will be put to the test, where your unparalleled mastery of the dialectical method will prove itself, not in this swamp of sectarianism and deviationism.

In truth, while the sectarians may give the appearance of being many in number, they are in fact only a handful. The statistics and traffic may give you the impression that there are countless thousands of them, but that is nothing more than a sign of the inherently anti-dialectical nature of this petit bourgeois technology. Do not trust these counter-revolutionary numbers, for what are they when compared with the mastery of the dialectical method wielded by your leaders? When your leaders deduce, through a thorough knowledge of Marx and Lenin, that this place is a swamp, inhabited by a handful of bitter sectarians, there is no need to consider the matter further, for they have understood the scientific laws of historical materialisml. Compared to these 'iron laws' of history, the weight of observable and testable reality vanishes into the night, as false consciousness wilts under the vigour of the true marxist revolutionary.

by C Mon Oct 24, 2005 18:17

S [SAP], I am not sure who you are talking about but the 'sanctuary of indymedia', shows that you have now bought the SWP party line, hook line and sinker. Slan.

by Badman Mon Oct 24, 2005 15:26

"Funny how none of the activists involved considered indymedia a good place to promote the conference. "

When you're running an event that is designed to con neophytes into thinking that they are involved in something that is not just another front (and a pretty lame one at that) it doesn't make sense to promote it on a public forum where lots of people with previous experiences of the dishonest and manipulative cult like recruitment techniques of the SWP will be able to respond to it.

The scientologists and the moonies don't promote themselves on indymedia either and there's nothing funny about it.

by socialist Mon Oct 24, 2005 15:26

"The SWP, for all its warts, has a decent record of fighting broard based campaigns in the labour movement. When workers strike, when racists come out of the woodwork, and when the wars start, they join in the struggle. You should too."

I really wish somebody from the SWP would pass comment on this sort of guff. On several occasions SP posters have come on and had a pop at their own members for spouting rubbish. Does this delusional person really think that it is only the SWP who fight in broad based campaigns?

A question for this person to ponder if they are in anyway open minded- if they have the decent record that he/she thinks why do so many people involved in the same campaigns have a problem with their methodology?

by s Mon Oct 24, 2005 14:56

I attended the conference on fri and most of saturday. "Most of the young people were from SY". And what about the meeting that students agaist ppoverty held on coke and columbia which was attended by 30 ppl? Its unfortunate that the people who are criticising the conference didnt get involved in any of the fantastic debates and had to run back to the sanctuary of indymedia. Funny how none of the activists involved considered indymedia a good place to promote the conference.
Great conference anyway. Day of action on climate change was called for DEC3rd i think. This was originaly put forward by green action i think who had a meeting of about 15 on sat.

by kvm Mon Oct 24, 2005 14:49

Well, I recall one gent who kept coming along to an SWP branch meeting to explain to anyone who would listen that the SWP was full of sectarian headbangers. He was expecting us to tell him to f off, but as a few of us had old fashioned ideas about socialist interaction, we simply ignored his boorish conduct. After a few months of this I bumped into him sitting on the beach and explained to him that the way he was carrying on was the real sectarianism. We had no objection to him selling his paper and organising meetings, we would not dream of disrupting his political activity, why did he have this compulsion to disrupt our efforts to organise?
I was delighted when he finally grasped the point that his conduct was really sectarian, he pissed of and left us alone of his own volition.

The SWP, for all its warts, has a decent record of fighting broard based campaigns in the labour movement. When workers strike, when racists come out of the woodwork, and when the wars start, they join in the struggle. You should too.

by D Mon Oct 24, 2005 14:45

'but your dishonest reporting on the conference leaves no other option.

Once again confirm what is not factual,

On the ARN {now now don't be dishonest} - yep the 'Belfast SWP' where involved in the ARN -indeed I have written on the formation of the ARN at the time - it will give you the full details of its initiation and our mobisations and bringing together of thousands of Catholic Protestant and Dissenter.

On the ARN, as stated, the ARN name of course ensured a better turn out for the conference due to our credibility - Indeed, as stated, that is why it was then advertised eventually as being 'Hosted by the ARN' {which had the largest meetings}rather that the SWP thingy Global justice. the ARN has being doing this for years, pulling around not only tens of people but hundreds and indeed thousands.

'Second, you suggest with typical modesty that YOU pull together such diverse forces with regularity. Is that right? And what do you and this crowd decide?

Reepeat - ' Yep I do, loads of forces have, are and do with regularity in this respect.

-Again if you want to see what we have been up to then read the recent issue of my diary, where with others, hundreds and thousands have been mobilised onto the Streets - {on various issues} Catholic, Protestant and Disenter and good victories won, over the last year.

If you want to we can go into want the SWP etc have been doing over the last year in Belfast

'and no one else on the Left seems to be capable of rising to the challenge'

I am not going to even answer that as I am now begining to think that this is a wind up.

Will respond only to SWP in future if they put their names.

Finally as stated again it was a good initiatve but state what is factually incorrect.

by Dzerzhinzky Mon Oct 24, 2005 14:06

It's funny. On indymedia, there seem to be an endless supply of non-aligned activists who have nothing but good to say about the SWP, who insist that they get a hard time from the rest of the left, who feel that they're "onto something" that the rest of us are missing.

But I've never met ONE non-aligned/independent socialist in the flesh who says anything of the sort.

Funny that.

Funny.

by markin Mon Oct 24, 2005 13:24

Davy:

I'm not interested in having a go at you, and I rarely say anything on IM, and I won't be reading your diary anytime soon, but your dishonest reporting on the conference leaves no other option. Everything you've said confirms that you're on an axe-grinding mission. First, you want to pretend that the success of ARN is somehow independent of the SPW's work within it. Bullshit, as any of the serious non-SWP activist within it will gladly acknowledge. Second, you suggest with typical modesty that YOU pull together such diverse forces with regularity. Is that right? And what do you and this crowd decide? How do you intervene in events?

As I said I would have no hesitation in stating if the meeting was little more than an SWP rump. In some ways I went along expecting that. But you are wong. They are on to something, and no one else on the Left seems to be capable of rising to the challenge. Like it or lump it.

by T Mon Oct 24, 2005 01:33

Well now lets not underestimate the intelligence of the non swp'ers on this committee but they may not have experience of swp's MO, we should buy em stab vests.

by redz Mon Oct 24, 2005 01:02

Committee of People Before Profit formed, 5 from SWP, 7 innocents/fellow travellers, none from any other socialist organisation, no well known names. No ones in the club except the SWP and those they can manipulate. Pure front!

by confused Sun Oct 23, 2005 21:38

How many people were at the meeting in Dublin?

Who spoke?

Did anyone from the SWP speak?

Did anyone who isn't from the SWP speak?

by D Sun Oct 23, 2005 15:20

Ann , again as I stated there where 50 at the open rally - fact,

As for the afternoon I was addressing a similar type conference in South Belfast of between 150- 200 at the address so could not make all the afternoon.Although I did go to a meeting before which got started at 12 noon at which Kieran Allen spoke at and although there was only seven people there {mostly SWP and supporters from, Dublin, Derry and Belfast} I did though enjoy it


Markin - 'on where else would you get chance to pull together community activists, minority ethnic community, trade unionsts and people from loyalist areas etc'? - well the ARN had been doing that for years already.

'What other force on the left is capable of pulling together a discussion about sectarianism that draws in such a mixed crowd? You know the answer' {your sounding more and more like SWP]

Yep I do, loads of forces have, are and do with regularity in this respect.




On you other points of who was in attendance all such events over the last week I will give a detailed update in my diary. and make the comparisons with simlar hosted events.

The ARN meetings I was in briefy and they where the best attended which is not a surprise given the credibity of the ARN and genuine activists within in, and that it was advertised as being hosted by the ARN.

As stated, I thought it a good intiative, but will give what I think of it with experineces of other such conference.

As for who else could pull in such a 'mixed crowd'? Are you being serious? Do you live in the North?

As for honest reporting, I gave a report asked for, and I reported excatly on that that I could attend, and if you want to dispute those facts then tell me what is not factual.

As stated a full record of all such conferences recently I wil detail.

by markin Sun Oct 23, 2005 09:14

Yup, Davy, you're letting your axe-grinding get in the way of honest reporting. Missed the Friday night meeting, but was there all day today and it was brilliant, with real representation from activists all throughout Belfast and further--migrant workers, anti-racists, trade unionists. I would have no hesitation to state that this was an SWP rump if that's what it was, but that is definitely not the case. Where else would you get a chance to pull together immigrants and community workers from the Village? What other force on the left is capable of pulling together a discussion about sectarianism that draws in such a mixed crowd? You know the answer. Move on Davy, for you own sake. SWP deserves credit for pulling this together, and if the moaners in the South have no more reason to complain then they should get on with theirs.

by Ann Sat Oct 22, 2005 20:43

Davy, I've just come from the last session of the Global Justice conference and I think you are more than a bit unfair about it. Last night's opening session was in competition with Robert Fisk. I went to see Fisk and there were 800 people there, many of them people who were going to the Global Justice conference today.

I didn't see you there this afternoon, so maybe you had left before I arrived (hungover this morning!) but there were over 50 in the workshop I was in and a similar number in the one my friend was in. There was another meeting going on at the same time, but I don't know how many were in that one. Certainly, in both the sessions we were at, there were ten or so SWPers and then the rest were a mixture - not all socialists or political activists. There were a good few anti-poverty campaigners, people who had gone to MPH in Edinburgh and community activists, for example, there were a few community workers from loyalist areas in my workshop and there was a really good vibe. There was no attempt by the SWP or anyone else to dominate at all - I think everyone involved in organising it thought it was a success and many of us left thinking we need to have more events like this that allow us to network and build something alternative in Belfast, something that is not about anyone ego or any organisation's profile but about standing up to the scary privatisation and criminalisation agenda of the direct rulers.

by Bean Counter Sat Oct 22, 2005 16:19

D I think that the questioner was asking about the meeting in Dublin for the Davitt League / PBPA. Some SWPer above was claiming that it had 90 people there with only a few SWPers. The rest of us want to see a more detailed and perhaps more reliable report.

by D - mate Sat Oct 22, 2005 15:44

to be percise. Came around this morming and meetings nearly 1 hour overdue due to lack of numbers.

by P Sat Oct 22, 2005 13:16

Were their really 90 people there??

by D Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:25

'As for the earlier post about the - Global Justice Conference tomorrow in Belfast, - that is just a conference and is backed by Belfast Trades Council, the Anti Racism Network, One World Centre etc'

It is not just a conference as the SWP have set up Global justice as 'announced' at the opening rally, which calls for much of what the SEA stands for.

The open rally itself was attended by 50 people with about half students, {I think most actually from the SP!}. Indeed apart from a few from the ARN I seen no other key activists I knew from around the host of Movements, apart from those in Street Seen.

Ironically in the Belfast SWP in the late 90's we had held our first conference {Belfast SWP, this with no such high profile speakers} - which had more in attendance at the opening rally with wider representation even then - but where severely chastised by the SWP in London for being 'insignificant.

I note though with Interest that it is now being couched as being hosted by the ARN - an organisation due to its actions on the ground which had won local credibility.

The reality is that the SWP, presently still sees the dogmatic mindset in ascendancy and therefore still with so much resources and monies {etc} put into this it reminded me {in many ways} as stated of the first Belfast SWP conference held all those years ago.

Again as I stated time and again that there are still genuine activists in the SWP and I believe some limited change is being affected.

There was though a wee bit of revisionism by one who introduced its opening {SWP}but once that was out of the way the speakers though drew the local and global and I really enjoyed their input.

'Now, I cannot help but think that any party that is so active but is given SUCH a hard time by so many anonymous posters - many of whom I suspect are police spies - must be doing something right'

An SWP member could not have written that better, for me I think that most of the people who give the SWP a hard time do not do so because they are 'police spies' so 'therefore the SWP must be doing something right' -

but are actually giving them a 'hard time' because they are doing something wrong'
Indeed if all the movements, campaigns, and activists who will not work with or criticised the SWP are police spies - Jesus then we are fucked.

Deal with the reality - and the criticism.

‘the SWP would be in a minority so we could just outvote them’

I do think that is a tad simplistic and naïve giving previous experience

And as for people who endorse an event - well there is a world of difference between endorsement and activist support.

I to believe in unity and indeed despite my criticism I have still, and had at times almost been the only one outside of themselves or their calls - who stood with them over the last year locally, as the issue was bigger than my problems with them {this shown in real terms}.

I believe though that some change is being effected within the SWP but presently, as stated that some of the dogmatic mindsets are still in the ascendancy, one can only hope though that that changes further.

by Little Birdie Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:15

Dunno about Maura Harrington. But little birdy told me there was about 90 people and there were only a handful of swpers in attentance. Sounds good.

by Ní hea an ra leis an bhunreacht seo Fri Oct 21, 2005 23:36

So how many turned up? Was it just a room full of SWP'ers? Is Maura Harrington in the SWP now?

by Gerry Fri Oct 21, 2005 23:17

I agree with Mary and think we need left unity and I thougth that the Seamus Healy initiative would bring that a step nearer anyway but then they said they wouldn't allow the SWP in and Dermot Connolly said the same. Now I have no problem working with anyone. I judge them on whether they pitch in and do their bit or not. In any real left unity grouping, the SWP would be in a minority so we could just outvote them if they wanted to do some of the awful things people are always telling me they have done in the past but when the rest of the left says they want unity, they are as bad as what they complain about the SWP for always only wanting it on their own terms only. I think we need something where everyone - SP, SWP, WSM and people who aren't part of any of them can work together against FF, FG, Labour and the other neo-liberal bastards. I'm from the North and I'd include SF in that list of privatising bastards.

by Mary Fri Oct 21, 2005 19:13 Derry

And that's why it's been asked again. I think alliances on the left ARE a good idea. The SEA has worked very well here in Derry - it's far broader than the SWP, although it is true that it was they who pushed to set it up. As for the earlier post about the Global Justice Conference tomorrow in Belfast, that is just a conference and is backed by Belfast Trades Council, the Anti Racism Network, One World Centre etc. - so could hardly be described as an 'SWP front'.
I'm beginning to take the SWP more seriously since I started reading Indymedia. I already admire the energy and commitment of their members here in Derry. So much that happens here - especially in relation to anti-war activity - simply would not if they did not push for it and, often, do all the work. I had always thought though that they are just a bunch of dreamers who have no hope of ever fundamentally changing anything - nice peopIe but basically pissing against the wind. Now, I cannot help but think that any party that is so active but is given SUCH a hard time by so many anonymous posters - many of whom I suspect are police spies - must be doing something right.

by Me Fri Oct 21, 2005 16:59

Didnt we get that question already?

by Michael Fri Oct 21, 2005 16:19

Are people in favour of Alliances per se, or are they a bad idea?

by B Fri Oct 21, 2005 15:31

Yes and while the SWP has the SEA in Derry, they are now launching the 'Global World Justice mass movement ' in Belfast. this wekend'To bring together all the Movements'. Well that makes the SEA stated aims redundant and what about the People before profit. It all so confusing but fun to watch.

by Amused Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:56

The CPI are pushing the Davitt League and the SWP are pushing the People Before Progit Alliance and both are launching/meeting at the same time/same place. That should be fun.

by Harry Pollitt Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:47

Dear all,



Meeting Cassidy's Hotel, Parnell Sq. tomorrow enening, 21st at 8.00pm to inaugurate discussion on Davitt League/ People before Profit alliance of grassroot/left movements. Would appreciate if you could pass on message and be there if at all possible.



Best wishes, Maura Harrington, Shell to Sea

by Michael R. Thu Oct 20, 2005 17:55

Are people in favour of Alliances per se, or are they a bad idea?

by Confused Thu Oct 20, 2005 14:12

Is the Davitt League meeting in Parnell Square tomorrow part of the People Before Profit Alliance?

by Allen Key Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:51

A little birdy told me that the SWP have downgraded the meeting from a launch to just talks because no one would join if they went ahead and launched the Alliance but some (how naive can you be?) are willing to talk to them. They will continue to set up the local 'branches', next ones due in Ballyfermot, contact Brid Smith, who just happens to be a member of the SWP.

by intrigued Thu Oct 20, 2005 01:26

a 24 hour housing picket of the County Council
where and when would this have been?

by History Channel Thu Oct 20, 2005 01:03

A correction to JK's list of fronts above. 'Rank & File Trade Union Solidarity Network', actually 'Trade Union Rank and File Solidarity Network' (c 2000), was a genuine if short-lived broad initiative with real potential (don't get me started). JK is probably thinking of 'Rank and File Solidarity Network' which immediately preceded the above body and which was launched at an SWP trade union conference.

A compleat list of SWP flags of convenience or subsidiaries requires long memories and a large sheet of blank paper. I stopped counting long ago...

The true nature (good or bad) of the People Before Profit Alliance (should it be launched) will emerge in practice and over time. At this stage it is probably only through activity that all of our bona fides will be tested. Presumably those not IN the PBPA will be open to working alongside it, and its constituent parts, on particular issues. Meanwhile it is time for those on the rest of the left who are for unity and a new left to take SOME visible collective step in that direction.

by Other Left Wed Oct 19, 2005 23:34

Fair enough d, I dont agree with much of what you say but at least you have put it forward in a reasonable manner, this time. I happen to agree that most SWP members are genuine people who do a lot of hard work, but so are most members of other left groups that I know, including the SP, WSM etc etc. The problem is, though, that none of the other left-wing groups, for all their differences, will work with the SWP in a broad alliance. Dont you think there is a genuine reason for this? Isn't there some serious problem wiht the SWPs activities if groups as divergent as these all refuse to play ball with you. Maybe this requires a bit more analysis of your strategy, tactics and methods than just the 'we're all human, we all make mistakes' admission. It just can't be the case that the SP, WSM, ISN, WCA etc are all wrong and the SWP alone is right.

by d - swp Wed Oct 19, 2005 20:47

At least soundmigrations comments are considered and genuine. I accept the sincerity of her involvement in the movement.

However her comments are still highly coloured by her own political perspective. I am guessing she is an anarchist/libertarian. Maybe I'm wrong.

The swp does not claim to be perfect and, because we are human beings constantly trying to engage with to an ever changing world, we are bound to fuck up from time to time. We have certainly often been guilty of not being what you might call 'good listeners'. We have often been over zealous in trying to spread our genuinely held convictions
However my experience of the anti-war movement in Ireland, the esf, genoa, edinburgh etcis very different to hers. These are the largest mobilistations of dissent in the last few years. In each of them the SWP has played an important and honourable role in contributing to mobilising for the events and taking part in the debates surrounding them.
We hold different opinions to the anarchists (and others) and we employ our democratic right to argue for these opinions and organise around them. For this we are routinely sacrificed on the alter of self-rigteousness on various wesbsites by the hosts of anonymous inquisitors. The accusers choose to see a dark satanic impulse to control the universe behind our different approach to changing the world. The SWP believes difference is good. That is why we work with many many people who do not agree with all of our ideas or our goals. As for autonomy and creativity. The swp is full of strong , creative, and independent people.
These are all the characteristics you need when you are involved in a serious way with trying to effect social change. IN my branch this week alone we are involved in a huge anti-privatisation campaign, mass dumping in the backs of bin trucks with communities in the area 4 mornings a week, industrial agitation around an post and irish ferries , a 24 hour housing picket of the County Council, and a public meeting about climate change (and I'm only mentioning about fifty per cent). In teh course of the week our local branch will engage in political activity with dozens of people outside of us
TO do all this without the trust and creative imput of everybody involved would be impossible.
Everybody is welcome to come along to the dozens of public meetings and events our party holds around the country on a weekly basis and discuss any of the issues raised above on a face to face basis. You mightn't agree with everything we do or say but you will certainly find us different to the way we are sometimes portrayed here

by Badman Wed Oct 19, 2005 18:26

Kudos to soundmigration - very well put.

by soundmigration - personal capacity Wed Oct 19, 2005 17:08

ohkkily dohkkily...
so i guess im a little cynical of the SWP's continuing moves to co-opt grassroots social movements and claim them as their own, as the result purely of their initiatives etc etc. Personally for me this cyrstalissed round the time of the mayday 2002 when i saw a SWP represenative sitting on a panel, condemning the actions of the guards at the RTS event. fair enough to condemn such actions and welcome indeed, but it was uncomfortable to note that the SWP under the name glovbaise resistance where attempting to link themselves to such events as if they had some had in organising them ...they didnt and they don’t.

Right across Ireland, the UK, europe and beyond, it has become cliched within ‘activist´ circles to slag of the SWP. Whilst this used to bore the fuck out of me personally when I first moved to Dublin and got involved with stuff (why spend time bitching about a group you don’t want to work with!!!) it has become increasingly clear that some factions of the SWP are intent upon coat tailing the work of grassroots and /or community activists (for want of a better term).

Perhaps this is too sharp or perhaps it misses the point a little. Just what is the SWP:
I mean, its pretty hard to argue against the parties rhetoric and slogans, stolen as they are usually from grassroots movements across the world. Its hard to disbelieve that the SWP are a force for good, as they often are the first foray for many individuals who desire to take back their own lives and who want make radical schanges in how society is organised. The party is also a party propoganda and as such have a very strong visual ´presence´ be that banner flags or paper sellers at each event. It is an obvious choice for people to get involved with. They are a big organisation per se.

However as recent experiences within the IAWM, Bin Tax campaign, Irish Social Forum and a catalogue of personal tales of woe illustrate is that the SWP as a party have great difficulty accomodating individuals who disagree with the party leadership. Dissent within the ranks is not tolerated, individuals have little atonomy to bring their own ideas to fruitition. Many activists I work with felt isloted and impotent and trapped by dictates upon high focussing on selling papers and recriuting more and more individuals.

This fundemantal attitude (or reason for being) of maximum membership is not just a problem of the SWP. It is one that is at odds with participative democracy, where the leadership of an organisation does not trust the members to take decsions for themselves. This is why on the previous thread about the people before profit alliance speaks of LEADING the people, explicitily not about maximising involvement and participation in decisions of the alliance

This rigid control was illustated by the expulsion of those on the Steering Committee (whos in the driving seat eh?) of the IAWM who disagreed with the tactics of the SWP party leadership. This quasi totalitarian attitude, as well as making it difficult (though not impossible) for anarchists and libertarians to work with mutual trust with any of the SWP intitiated party vechiles, also illustrates a weak confidence in the very human beings whom the SWP seeks to emancipate. The ESF in london last year was another example of european dissillusion with vanguard political ownership, masquerading as


more recently we have seen the SWP big up talk of direct action surrounding the shell to sea campiagn, quite funny when you consider that they condemned grassroots activists for the 'violence' of attempting to break into shannon airport in the past. on a more postive perspective perhaps its good to see that the old vanguard party that see its role as "leading the people" embracing such tactics....so when will the SWP/IAWM organise a public attempt and/or covert attempts to take such actions.

This is not about a secarian rant about the SWP or other vanguard parties who exploit each political campighn for a short term to suit their own needs. indedd i have no doubt that there are many in the ranks of the SWP who are committed human beings with a sincere desire to create menaingful and lasting social changes. It is about critically looking at how the party functions, particularly in coalitions. My arguments arent served by simplistic sectarianism

having spent some time working within the irish and UK Dissent network in the build up to the mobilisation of the G8 in stirling this summer, it has become increasingly clear that particular institutions, and within this i include the working practices( and not the individuals per se) of the SWP, of Oxfam and other NGO's are serious inhibitors to the creation of a culture or participatory democracy, in the first instance in organising round issues and campaigns and secondly in society in general.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/10/300072.html
http://www.g8alternatives.org.uk/g8bb/viewtopic.php?t=366&
i dont say this lightly and do so only because it is increasingly apparent that not only do many NGO's and parties like the SWP refuse to work in coalitions in a particapatory capacity, but actually view real grassroots activity and growing networks as a threat to thier own existence. If this is the view held by such parties how is it possible for them to create and ferment the real and immediate societal changes needed. One glimmer of light around the G8 this summe was the refusal of G8 alternatives, a relatively braod coalition inc the SWP, to condemn the actions of activists taking part in the decentralised blockades which shut down the summit for most of wednesday morning. We had yet to see such solidarity from the SWPO in ireland when it comes to supporting the direct actions of activists here....kinda funny when they give blanket support for 'Iraqi Reistance' as if this resistance was centrally organised. Personally i cant see how you can support those wishing to organise a totalitarian state under the pretense of 'islam' but the SWP see no problem with this
see link below for very goos critique of the SWP and their involvement with the Stop The Wsr Coalition
http://www.mikemarqusee.com/index.php?p=41

also the timeing of this annoucemant is funny as it comes hot on the heels of the last Grassroots Gathering which focussed on strethening the growing links between grassroots campaigns across the island and the increasing amount of libertarian ideas in this process. Also recently we have seen real attempts to increase conectivity within all ares of DIY/community struggles/libertarian politics in Dublin. These are relationships that only grow and develop in an atmosphere of mutuality respect and trust.

It almost feels that the SWPas a party (and again not the all the individual members)are riding on the coat tails, trying to guess the direction of the wind and hoping to claim kudos for the political agendas that are increasingly being forced by grassroots activism

so i hope this is a sincere effort by SWP, though i hope i am forgiven in my aging cynicism. If your staring piont is to 'lead the people' then ya might as well be the pied piper. However meaningful links and working practices will continue to grow, without fanfare. Will the move by the SWP further left unity….time will tell but don’t ley it stop ya acting yourself

by Peter Wed Oct 19, 2005 16:59

From what you are saying its only talks about talks. But thanks for the info anyway.
FWIW it doesn't seem like a good way to start. Your paper states that the Alliance is up and running in Ballymun and Dun Laoghaire. But it seems your initiative is only a select 'People Before Profit Alliance' in other areas. It seems perhaps unintentionally you are fuelling the fires of your detractors.
But that's only my five cents worth. Hope to be proven wrong.

by d - swp Wed Oct 19, 2005 16:20

Thanks for your positive and constructive comments
There's a lot of stuff happening in the noggin that we can hopefully campaign together on.
On the alliance- all that is now happening is a few people meeting to discuss if such an alliance can be launched. I hope it can. The swp is involved and so are other important campaigners. Other organisations on the left have their own ideas about left unity. some are adopting a wait and see attiTude ti the alliance. That's fair enough. I think that what really matters is not who does something, but if its the right thing to do. And I the swp firmly believes that it is time for a new alliance on the left. I believe their are many others, often not among the usual suspects, who agree with us. We'll see I suppose.

by Noggin Boy Wed Oct 19, 2005 15:23

I acknowledge the good work done by the SWP on the baths issue in Dun Laoghaire, where I live, and I think a lot of this negative slanging has no purpose, but I want to take you up on one point. My question is: if People Before Profit is a genuine initiative for 'fighting left unity' as you say, would'nt it , by definition, have to include more of the left than SWP members and supporters ? But from what Ive heard no other left group/party or independent lefts have agreed to join it. Now if thats the case, then you have to admit that, from the outside, this looks like the launch of another front, since it will just be the SWP and friends under another name and that a lot of people, like myself, who want to see left unity, will be very wary of it.

by Peter Wed Oct 19, 2005 15:11

Is there an initiative along the lines of what the original poster talks of? Where is this People Before Profit Alliance meeting taking place? Can anybody get involved?

It is my firm belief that the left needs to come together and put petty squabbles behind it. I'm interested - how do I get involved?

by JK Wed Oct 19, 2005 13:03

In what way will PBPA be different to all the other 'broad fronts' set up and controlled by the SWP like
Globalise Resistance
Irish Civil Rights Association
North City Health Action Group
various 'branches' of the Dublin anti-bin tax campaign which only ever sent SWP members to meetings (I'm reliably informed that one fellow called Donal 'respresented' three different localities in the space of two months)
Rank & File Trade Union Solidarity Network
SIPTU Grassroots
SIPTU Activists for Change
African Social Forum
Another Europe Is Possible
Pro-Choice Campaign
Rebel Alliance
etc.

fool me once, shame on you
fool me twice, shame on me
fool me dozens of times, not a bloody chance

by W Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:40

I'm not, and never insinuated I was, the swp-bots have a hard time actually reading what people write.

This is hilarious, you guy wait and see the swp are going to launch something huge and then we'll all go up against the wall.
At least they admitted to taking over and running the IAWM (into the ground).

by Joe - WSM 1st of May (personal capacity) Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:20

'W' above isn't a WSM member.

by ReSect Watch Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:43

"The members of the swp in Britain support the idea of a workers wage . Others in the respect coalition do not. If members of the SWP in Britain are elected they will take a worker’s wage."

Isn't Michael Lavelette a member of the SWP. Wasn't he the leading speaker against making an issue of the workers wage?

"A coalition means working together with people who do not share your whole program. The SWP retains its independent existence inside the framework of respect. See how that works out by reading their paper at www.socialistworker.org.uk"

Care to give a breakdown of the balance of forces within RESPECT. When the SWP decide that RESPECT has outlived its usefulness, do you think there would be much left in RESPECT? What happened when the SWP got tired of the Socialsist Alliance.

"In Ireland we work with numerous individuals and organisations in a whole range of local and national coalitions.
In Dun Laoghaoire for example we are part of the extremely successful Save Our Seafront Campaign which recently stopped the privatisation of the Dun Laoghaire Sea baths. There are many other examples to be found on our website at www.swp.ie and in our fortnightly paper on the same website"

None of them ever of course hyped up.

"The SWP has a long and proud tradition of supporting gay rights, many members are gay etc."

Remind me, who said gay rights weren't a shibboleth?

"The RESPECT constitution explicitly supports the right of freedom of choice in ones personal affairs."

Yes it allows George Galloway, Anas Altikriti and others all speak out against abortion.

"You can read that at www.respctcoalition.org"

You can look at the womens right to choose campaign's statements on RESPECT

"The SWP has never told anyone the revolution is around the corner."

Great, so you aren't totally mad.

"Obviously slanders replace substance when the point of the thread is not to engage in constructive debate but to undermine a genuine initiative for fighting left unity."

Pot-kettle-black. That's right the SWP never engage in slanders. Those people in RAR are just imagining things.

"To repeat a point one of our branches does more work in one week than most of the bullshitters on negative threads like this do in their whole lifetime."

Enjoy your fantasy world.

"Finally there are some excellent larger articles about left unity around Europe and beyond to be found in the latest issue of our tendencies quarterly journal."

I could equally post many excellent articles which also espouse left unity but would warn people about having anything to do with the SWP. I wonder why?

by Jesse James Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:39

Questions to SWP:

Do you deny that at Respect conferences SWP members and activists have voted AGAINST a worker's wage and have been specifically instructed to do so by the party?

Do you believe that deliberate and premeditated targetting of civilians, which a large number of resistance factions in Iraq use, is a legitimate form of revolutionary violence?

Do you agree with Lindsay German's description of gay rights and women's rights as 'shibboleths' that should not prevent the coming together of political alliances?

Do you deny that SWP cadre voted against and were instructed to vote against a motion calling for the common ownership of multinational corporations at Respect Annual Conference 2004?

As for the SWP never claiming revolution is 'just around the corner, not only does the party do it but comrade, I was sent to branch meetings to do it, especially post Genoa.

by Amused Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:59

"To repeat a point one of our branches does more work in one week than most of the bullshitters on negative threads like this do in their whole lifetime."

Does that include the phantom branches?

by d - swp Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:48

AS far as I know Lindsey German doesn’t have any children. If she did I am sure the would be going to state schools.

The members of the swp in Britain support the idea of a workers wage . Others in the respect coalition do not. If members of the SWP in Britain are elected they will take a worker’s wage.

A coalition means working together with people who do not share your whole program. The SWP retains its independent existence inside the framework of respect. See how that works out by reading their paper at www.socialistworker.org.uk

Other affiliates of the Irish party have taken part in very successful coalitions like the victorious no campaign against the EU constitution in France, and the left party in Germany.

In Ireland we work with numerous individuals and organisations in a whole range of local and national coalitions.
In Dun Laoghaoire for example we are part of the extremely successful Save Our Seafront Campaign which recently stopped the privatisation of the Dun Laoghaire Sea baths.
There are many other examples to be found on our website at www.swp.ie and in our fortnightly paper on the same website

The SWP has a long and proud tradition of supporting gay rights, many members are gay etc.

The RESPECT constitution explicitly supports the right of freedom of choice in ones personal affairs.

You can read that at www.respctcoalition.org

The SWP has never told anyone the revolution is around the corner.

Obviously slanders replace substance when the point of the thread is not to engage in constructive debate but to undermine a genuine initiative for fighting left unity.

To repeat a point one of our branches does more work in one week than most of the bullshitters on negative threads like this do in their whole lifetime.

Finally there are some excellent larger articles about left unity around Europe and beyond to be found in the latest issue of our tendencies quarterly journal. They are:

France: the triumph of the political
Stathis KouvÉlakis
Germany: the rise of the left
Stefan Bornost
A note on the Dutch referendum
Pepijn Brandon
Poland and the new Europe
Jane Hardy and Andy Zebrowski
The rise of Solidarnosc
Colin Barker
Respect: the view from below
Ian Taylor
Bolivia: the rising of the people
Mike Gonzalez
The left and the crisis of the Lula government
Paulo Trinidade, Rui Polly and Sérgio Dominguez
Imperialism and global political economy
Alex Callinicos

Find these at http://www.isj.org.uk/

by M - SWP Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:23

It really doesnt matter if people in the WSM call the SWP state agentsetc etc, they are irrelevent and have no links with real action on the ground. The SWP, have made a real impact in places like Ballymun, Ballyfermot and Dun laoghaire and that was shown in the recent local People Before Profit Meetings where large number of non-SWP people attended. What is really getting at our critics is that we can mobilise such support in the broader movement. This will be clear to see when this broad alliance takes off.

by M - SWP Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:22

It really doesnt matter if people in the WSM call the SWP state agentsetc etc, they are irrelevent and have no links with real action on the ground. The SWP, have made a real impact in places like Ballymun, Ballyfermot and Dun laoghaire and that was shown in the recent local People Before Profit Meetings where large number of non-SWP people attended. What is really getting at our critics is that we can mobilise such support in the broader movement. This will be clear to see when this broad alliance takes off.

by The Correcter Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:17

I think Jesse is confusing German with Yvonne Ridley, one of Respect's leading lights.

by Mark P Wed Oct 19, 2005 01:22

W said:

"The simple and terrible truth is that the swp might as well be agents of the state for all the damage they do to the left, taking young people in and promising them the revolution is just around the corner then burning them out - most of these people never come back to leftist politics. Look at how the SWP have swelled the ranks of the WSM over the last few years"

I'm not a huge fan of the WSM but now you are just being unneccessarily insulting!

by guydebordisdead Wed Oct 19, 2005 01:06

Was "people not profit" not the
slogan of Globalise Resistance?

The front group the SWP used
to cash in on the new global resistance..

The group that every radical organisation in Ireland pulled out of leaving just Aoife, Rory and the others all alone.

by W Wed Oct 19, 2005 01:02

The simple and terrible truth is that the swp might as well be agents of the state for all the damage they do to the left, taking young people in and promising them the revolution is just around the corner then burning them out - most of these people never come back to leftist politics.

Look at how the SWP have swelled the ranks of the WSM over the last few years by alienating and using so many UCD activists.

The worst thing about this is some genuinely nice people join the swp and argue bitterly about how great they are only to turn around months later and realise how foolish they were or disappear from the scene totally.

I for one haven't forgotten the dirty tricks they pulled on Mayday last year or on March 1st 2003. They're a sinking ship - get out while you can.

by michael - swp Tue Oct 18, 2005 19:46

jesse have you actually got proof that lyndsey sends her kids to a posh scholl or are you confusing her with Diane abbott.

by M - SWP Tue Oct 18, 2005 19:25

So now out comes all the usual rubbish from people who have noting better to do. As d has said a quick look at the SWP website shows that all of what we are accused of are lies pure and simple. The only people who come up with this stuff are members of small groups who could'nt organise a piss up in a brewery. You might just be in for a bit of a shock when you see who will affilaite the new alliance. Already, a lot of independent socialists and community activists have agreed to get involved.

On the question of Iraq, the SWP does support the right of the Iraqi people to resist the imperialist occupation, what kind of anti-imperialists wouldnt. It is a tradegy that so many civilians have been killed, most by the occupation forces and their allies, but ultimate blame for that is with the Americans, who invaded and occupied the country. It would be very arrogant of us to dictate to the Iraqi people how they should resist and it smells like Islamophobia to me when western left-wingers start sounding like Blair and Bush when theyre condemning the resistance. The bottom line is: the cause of violence is the occupation and the only solution is immediate withdrawal of the occupation forces.

by D not SWP Tue Oct 18, 2005 18:04

but will bite my tongue - Presently -as I read with amusement

{M must be either taking the piss or is a new face to politics in the SWP - in relation to some things that he - she states}

As for people before profit - well the SWP reasoning is also a bit deeper but much is covered above, -

and it will indeed muster little support I believe amongst the wider movement.

Signing off - away to watch some paint dry.

by Bul$51t Tue Oct 18, 2005 18:02

How many times have we heard a new front being set up by the SWP and then words like "this could be the beginning of a new left". What crap it is the same tired old SWP tactic. I am sure the few people who read the paper were deeply inspired at the thought of a new left . However they will soon realise that if their is a new left it will never involve the SWP.

by Jesse James Tue Oct 18, 2005 17:56

Some members of the SWP in Ireland should pay attention to what your party is doing in Britain, remembering that the way the IST is structured, it's actually your parent organisation.

SWP cadre were instructed to vote against a worker's wage in RESPECT (Lindsay German, who sends her kids to a posh private school spoke passionatelky against a worker's wage), against homosexual rights for fear of alienating Muslim support won through the anti-war movement (Same on abortion as it happens though they've u-turned again on that), opposes free speech for political opponents it claims are fascist or racist and also opposes free speech within RESPECT btw, voted against the common ownership of coroprations at RESPECT Annual Conference 2004 with my darling Lindsay leading the charge (She actually used the phrase: 'This motion is calling for socialism, and this is neither the time nor the place for socialism'), supports the 'resistance' in Iraq with no criticial position at all thus support for suicide bombings, beheadingsd and all such joyful experiences. And anyone who has attended Marxism here or in Britain can tell you about those positions.

And let's face it, claiming the SWP has no internal democracy is like claiming the sun rises in the east. Proof is everywhere, further debate unnecessary.

D: I'm a former member of the SWP from Britain. I worked my arse off before leaving to join Britain's largest political party: Former and Disillusioned Members of the SWP.

Reports of Respect conferences and Marxism debates on these issues can be found in the Weekly Worker published by the CPGB. Don't agree with CPGB politics, but if you want to know what the SWP is up to in Britain, and as a consequence Ireland, it's essential reading.

by d - swp Tue Oct 18, 2005 17:46

Everything jesse says about us is a lie
as a look at our website will confirm
One of our branches does more real activity and works with more real people in a week than jesse and his ilk will ever do
pathethic bullshitters

by Fritz Lang Tue Oct 18, 2005 17:41

we criticise the SWP no matter what they do because no matter what face they pull, they're still a bunch of spineless opportunists, more interested in signing up kids in Che Guevara t shirts then actually challenging capital.
face it, the authoritarian left is dead in Ireland today, parroting KA's slogans doesn't change that. consider these endless threads as a metaphoric circling of vultures, not that there'll be much to salvage from your dead wrecks.

by Jesse James Tue Oct 18, 2005 17:28

Having had to change my pants after being overcome by laughter from M - SWP's comments I feel able to reply.

The SWP is opposed to a worker's wage for elected representatives, a basic principle of socialism and one adopted by Sinn Fein and the Socialist Party.

It supports Islamic fundamentalism, opposes free speech, supports the killing of innocent civilians, opposes homosexual rights, opposes common ownership of corporations and is fundamentally opposed to internal democracy.

Most credible party on the left? You're not a left wing party as left wing parties have the opposite positions to those above and the SWP's lack of credibility is evident not just in those policies, but in the complete distrust and contempt genuine Irish leftists in Greens, SP, Sinn Fein, Left Labour, Independents like Healy and McGrath have for you.

People Before Profit is not a broad front, it is a rebrand on the same people. It is as different to the SWP as the UFF is to the UDA.

by Curious Tue Oct 18, 2005 15:48

What does that mean?

by Joe Tue Oct 18, 2005 15:47

But as I'm probably not the only one who was mislead you might want to leave your response up for a while. In this sort of case where the original stays up a long time maybe it should be replaced with a correction for a similar period?

by seedot Tue Oct 18, 2005 15:35

The sections you specify as for 'internal consumption' were actually additions to what seemed to be a real release.
Since this was pointed out on the ed list and no copy of the original was forthcoming despite requests, the article was hidden.

as will this ed discussion in a bit.

by Joe Tue Oct 18, 2005 15:28

I'm puzzled - there was previously a long discussion on this as a result of someone posted what looked like an internal SWP article (I say internal because it had a few 'not for public consumption' references that made it clear that the SWP would lead this new front). However I can't find the article anywhere on indymedia.ie now. Does anyone know the URL for it?

by X-swp Tue Oct 18, 2005 15:13

Ah bless...isn't it a wonder everyone else on the left isn't beating down the door, desperate to form an alliance with your wonderful organisation?

by M - SWP Tue Oct 18, 2005 15:10

The SWP is the most inflential organisation of the left in Ireland. In the IAWM we have built a genuinely broad organisation that is recognised as the leading anti war organisation in the country. The SWP did more work in the Shell to Sea campaign than all the rest of the left put together. The results we got in the local elections surprised our enemies and the success of the People Before Profit Alliance will surprise them again.

by Mark C - Teacher Tue Oct 18, 2005 14:56

Does the SWP have any influence on the broad movement (or any worth speaking of)?

by M - SWP Tue Oct 18, 2005 14:45

When the SWP would not work with other groups everyone criticised the party as ultralefts now that we want to bring together a broad alliance we are accused of turning right. You can't have it both ways. The only thing I agree with in the the article is that most of the people who criticise the SWP belong to little sects who have no influence on the broad movement.

by Jesse James Tue Oct 18, 2005 13:25

Some interesting thoughts there. The notion of it being an electoral alliance is a curious one for a party that claims not to be electorally minded. It might be enough to get Brid and IAWM Boy elected in 2009 at the locals but it's irrelevant as far as the Generals are concerned unless Joan Collins can be signed on in which case they wouold have one candidate with some credibility.

It's also interesting the 'Davitt League' element of it seems to be quietly dropped. There were some complaints about the whole thing in the Shell to Sea campaign with the Shinners and the Anarchists crying foul along with at least two of the families. Cowley as well ran a mile from it after the launch in Mayo.

Oh, and the SWP have as much chance of recruiting McBrearty as a candidate as they do of outselling the Sunday Independent with the Socialist Worker. At last count McBrearty has been approached by Labour and by Sinn Féin, either one of which would offer him a lot more support, credibility and organisation than the SWP.

by Paul Moloney Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:29 paul_moloney at hotmail dot com

According to Wikipedia, Mike "City of Quartz" Davis is a member of SWP Ireland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Davis

Did he live in Ireland at any point?

P.