To protest or to advertise your political party

by redcow Thu Jul 28, 2005 02:44

some parties had been strangely quite of certain affairs until they became media circuses, now every party in ireland appears to want to jump on board. people are dying, people are in prison, people are fighting for just causes and its sickening to see the usual shower or politrickers turning up once the camera is on a campaign in the hope they'll be 'remembered' next round at the ballot box!

by count me in (im a utopian) Thu Jul 28, 2005 09:17

last time i checked the reason i went to any protest, picket and/or event i went for personal reasons of showing my solidarity but also to show the solidarity of the political party iam a member of (the socialist party).

i made a conscious political decision to join the sp sorry if you want to be a sheep (eehh remember the make poverty history demos with their non-political colouring and white t-shirts bands etc for all)!!! people who aremembers of political parties are not sheep (well most arent!).

while i completely understand your not wanting to be a member of a political party and your genuine feeling of not wanting whatever protest march etc to be hijacked by political groupings do you not realise your advocating censorship?!?!

finally and this is meant in a critical but fraternal way, your entire attitude is utopian to think that critiscising political groupings will somehow make them change their mind and change the way they operate (sure isnt that what paisley is doing with the provos just asking nicely?!). your attitude is the same patronising middle class attitude which in the north amounts to yelling at the top of your voice while society is divided "why cant we all just get along?wont somebody think of the children?!?!"

by By Any Means Necessary Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:56

Respect to any political party that believes in advertising itself...its frightening when individuals or political groups try to sanitise protest by keeping party politics out of it...smacks of censorship...if political parties try to hijack and control a protest when the majority of the mass are against it...and there are some parties with a history of wrecking movements..then they will be discredited as the opportunists they are...

by Bonzo Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:00

Hey I know alot of the groups mentioned above (SP, SWP, Labour, Sinn Fein) whose party banners are bigger than the main campaign banners, do alot of good work but it is a reality that they put off alot of ordinary people who are attracted to a campaign. Now I'm not advocating a law to prevent this from happening I'm just expressing this point of view in the hope that yis will all take it into account. This is not censorship.

Its really annoying to set up for example a blockade of a shell garage with lots of carefully prepared shell to sea banners and then one guy comes along with his Shinner Banner or his trot banner and all of a sudden in the eyes of the public we're all Shinners or swappers or whatever.

As for us being middle class whingers as the above SP member states. Well I know personally alot of members of the SP and 90% of them are from very rich middle to upper class backgrounds. So stop labeling people whom you don't know as middle class just cos we have the audacity to criticise your activities.

by Joe Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:02

I can sympathise with those who are annoyed when a party turns up with hundreds of branded placards which can make a demonstration look likes its own unless people have brought their own. And I can see why people are annoyed with the 'rush to the front' of political party banners that is common at demonstrations so that the picture on the news that day will have the parties banner in it.

But protests are political events so of course political parties are going to be at them. And if they are there they should be as free to make their presence felt as any other group who might be there. Who complains about a 'Dundrum against this sort of thing' banner.

by Michael Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:11

I think it is understandable the objections being raised to party political banners. I do think they should be toned down a bit and attempts should be made (where resources are available) to make appropriate banners for the protest in question.

However, saying all that, I do not object to political parties advertising or promoting themselves. I believe that parties primarily go along to protests becuase they genuinely believe in the cause and want to support it. But while they are there I do not object to they promoting themselves as well. Left wing parties do not have the resourses available as do the right wing parties and hence must use other means to promote themselves. They are also a million miles behind the right wing parties at present.

In order for the left movement in Ireland to grow and consequently in order for the size of protests to grow (and for the opportunity of not having to protest in the first place!!), left wing parties need to grow.

If they attend these protests I believe they help to serve at least five purposes:-

1. To bolster the number of people at the protests.
2. To bring colour and placards to the protests. These placards would often not be available to the general participants but for they being brought alone en mass by the political parties.
3. To promote themselves and hence grow and hence grow the whole left movement in general.
4. By they growing and the whole left movement growing, numbers at future protests will be bigger.
5. As I mentioned earlier, by this growth, the chances of eliminating the cause of the protest in the first place is reduced.

Just my opinion.

by Ciaron Thu Jul 28, 2005 15:37

People go to rallies for all sorts of reasons. Some to support the issue, socialise or to market and recruit. People bringing their banners from the Quakers to the socialists can offer a visual pluralism. It's hard no t to view these mass produced labelled posters for distribution to non-party members as anything more than visual conscription and an attemp to get thebrand name on the teev or in the straight press. A lot of what passes as left activism has more to do with matketing, branding, profile enhancement.

I think around court scenes folks should take direction from the defendants (who are in a much vulnerable postion) about visuals and behavior. If they can't, they should leave the court scene and carry on the stuggle somewhere else (eg. in Rossport 5 Case at a Shell station etc)

by mayoman Thu Jul 28, 2005 15:49

I think in fairness that most people are sensible enough in this campaign. Like it or not members of various groups do like to be identified as such on protests and as someone else said it proves the range of support. It was interesting to watch people picking placards on Saturday. Some were happy to take SF or SWP placards persumably because they support one or other. Particularly popular were the generic ones printed by SF (i think) but having no "brand" on them. Also at the courts I have seen members of all groups and none standing behind the yellow shellto sea banner.

by No logo just priciples Thu Jul 28, 2005 16:36

I think we should go back over the last year of Indymedia and give an award to the party who consistently turns up with the biggest banner promoting themselves and distracting attention from the real point of protest marches. The "Blatant advertising at a protest march" Award.

I wonder if business logos will start turning up at protests - Texaco might turn up with their banner at the anti Shell marches to win support for their own garages and do damage to their competitor Shell! Individuals might start wearing t-shirts with their company website printed on the front or hold banners about the protest with their company details on it too. And protest marches would then become just a big mess of distractions and instead of clear communication!

I do remember the Make Poverty History march - it was the biggest since the anti Iraq march in Feb 2003. Perhaps because so many ordinary people came out to march on the issue and there were no political parties pretending to own the demo (which puts a lot of people off turning up to protests).

When there are a lot of banners at a march the photos that then appear in the press can really be twisted to make a campaign look like its owned by a political party. That can really alienate a campaign in the public mind.

Sinn Fein had a massive banner outside Mountjoy Jail the evening the Rossport 5 went in. I’m sure some people driving past thought there was a republican prisoner inside.

Just as there is strength in numbers, when it comes to communication there is strength in having one clear message and not distracting from that message with irrelevant, selfish advertising.

Its very sneaky to print up banners for a protest march with a political party’s logo on it - I think that practice should be stopped. It plays on people's desire to hold a banner when they turn up to a march while they might have no interest in promoting a political party.
Perhaps another award could be made to the "best home made banner" to encourage and acknowledge people's creative time spent voicing an original opinion? These personal banners are often the highlight of protests. I remember "Jesus said got to mass, critical mass" at one of the bike events.

If political parties want to show their support for a protest then their leaders should turn up and march and perhaps make a speech but not try to turn the whole march a certain colour and use it as a publicity event.

Fair balls to the party that starts printing banners for protest marches with out any party logos - I dare you!

While its important to get lots of people along to a demo the motivation of a political party to make their party’s' presence felt is a selfish one and doesn’t benefit the protest, its just to try to win votes for itself in the next election.

This also hands the mainstream media the means to brand a protest with a certain political party which does cause a lot of people to be put off.

What if political parties could make a donation to the protest specifically for the making of banners/placards etc - that would be a very clear way to support a protest and get banners made.

I’m not interested in growing the left movement as "Michael" seems to assume in his post - I’m talking about keeping the focus on a campaign's core message and not trying to hijack a campaign to turn it a certain colour and in doing so damaging the campaign by turning people off it because of the political party it is associated with.

The best campaigns and marches were successful because of how many people turned up not because of how many political party banners there were! Keep it mainstream, keep it massive, make a difference.

by Ciaron Thu Jul 28, 2005 17:36

There's nothing more dangerous than an invisible ruling class. To think that Make Poverty History march was free of political agendas because they went for the inflatable Loch Ness Monster (go figure?) is wrong. You can't blame people for turning up with visuals to disaccociate themselves from the moderate spin one size fits all bullshit NGO agenda masquerading as common sense.

I think you're kind of stuck in single issue protest politcs here and confusing it with a critique of left opportunism. In Briz Vegas, anarchists always gather at the end of the marches.

Always better to be the guard van than the vanguard!

by No logo just principles Thu Jul 28, 2005 17:59

What I am talking about is attracting MORE people. The bigger the march the better. So the less reasons people have to feel alienated (If I join that march I will be associated with that party) then the more likely people would be to come out and march at a protest

Then when people read news papers and see reports and photos from a previous march they arent going to form an opinion like "Oh Im not labour, or socialist or green so Im not going to support that campaign"

Im talking about the numbers turning out to marches and doing other things for campaigns like writing letters etc.

Im sure there were loads of political agendas in the crowd at the make poverty history march but they were in the minds of the marchers and messages on banners were not political party adverts

I have never heard of a protest where only Finna Failers or only Labour were asked to come out and march

a public demo is about getting as many people as you can out on the streets so doing anything that could alienate them or make them feel in anyway uncomfortable should be avoided for the sake of the specific protest campaign in question

by By Any Means Necessary Thu Jul 28, 2005 18:07

This smacks of censorship.

You cannot sanatise protest and the different parties represented are a reflection of activist power and solidarity.

What is the problem with a broad based, political alliances on issues which different parties agree on ?

by R. Isible Thu Jul 28, 2005 18:10

QUOTE: "What I am talking about is attracting MORE people. The bigger the march the better. So the less reasons people have to feel alienated (If I join that march I will be associated with that party)"

You're pushing that idea and I don't know that there's much evidence for it. Personally I'm not going to be put off turning up at a march because I resent a particular group that's also present at it. I'd agree that it's irritating when a group/party prints up a pile of placards with their "brand" on them and hands them out to people just there for the issue, thus trying to give a misleading impression that they've had a 600% jump in membership since last Tuesday. But I don't know that you can show that a significant number of people are put off by it, or that MORE people would turn up if there were no party banners.

I also think Ciaron's point about hidden leaders and censorship is important.

by hs - sp Thu Jul 28, 2005 18:16

I can understand the view that parties shouldn't try to hijack a protest, they shouldn't. And any that try are discovered pretty quickly. but if no political parties turned up to dublin protests you would loose the best part of 80% of protesters. I don't necessarly mean the big ones, but the day to day ones that don't make as much of a splash. A lot (if not the majority) who keep up the protests and the campaigns going are members of political parties or in organised groups , we'd all prefer if it weren't so. but the truth is if the parties didn't turn up (in this I include organised anarchists), the protests would probably be very small if exist at all. And we'd all be wondering where the hell they were.. And how could we call ourselves socialists or anarchists if we didn't turn out to support the rossport five or the like.

I know we'd get a serious hammering on indymedia (quite rightly) if we missed one!

On the other hand if a campaign wishes no political banners to be brought they only have to say so and as far as I'm aware it's always respected. I'm thinking of the nurses campaign for the last time this happened.

by On the One Road Thu Jul 28, 2005 18:59

I can see were your comeing from but personally think the better marches are the one's with a mix of groups and mybe iam just lazy but instead of stopping every single peron on the march and asking so do you support the idea of a 32 county democratic socialist nation state achived by any means nessicary or not, would everthing be better if leon wasn't stapped in the back of the head, do you love jeasus or what ever think signs and banners add colour imo

by LOL Thu Jul 28, 2005 21:19

you could always get together with your pals, and make little posters and placards, or a really big banner- "not X but on side". Then you could go stand with the SF, or SWP, or SP or whomever with your little poster in the middle "I am not SF! but I am onside".
Or you could have a big banner - "non political party members of the public in support of this march", and you could bring it to every demo, and if it was eye catching enough, it would do the trick for everyone.
Either that or you could just take up the rear of every demo. with a van of thumping hardcore teckno and a bunch of i-t-a-l-i-a-n-s on drugs vomiting during the speeches at the end.



*no actual italian was harmed during the writing of this comment.
** this comment is fictional no similarity with any living or dead italian is intended and completely unintentional.
*** some of my best friends are i-t-a-l-i-a-n

by Mark P - Socialist Party (personal cap) Thu Jul 28, 2005 21:37

Someone said:

"Fair balls to the party that starts printing banners for protest marches with out any party logos - I dare you!"

The Socialist Party often prints placards for protest marches without our party name and using the slogans of the campaign as a whole. We also bring placards with our name and with our slogans. People are free to take either or to bring their own home made ones.

by No Logo just principles Fri Jul 29, 2005 01:43

fair play

by Republican Fri Jul 29, 2005 01:59

The Patients Together were quite agressive about their march being non-political (unless you were of a particular persuasion) but then it was refreshing to see that it's not only trots who are into fronting.

by By Any Means Necessary Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:57

Is not the point of this thread about what the protest movement wants to achieve and how the engagement of political parties aid or ninder progress ?

My experience of pseudo-trot groups is that they always try to push the agenda towards their central democratic method of organisation, which means that they tend to alienate non-political supporters or use protest as simply a recruiting exercise..and individuals who do not subscribe are deliberately left out of the loop..which is why they are seen as elitest or at worst agents of the state.

Hence the well documented fall-out and the fear that trot / leninist groups are there to wreck in the name of their revolution.

I myself have had more heated arguements about tactics with the trots...when solidarity in action was needed.

Don't argue about tactics cos the oppressor loves our bickering.

.

by m.m.mccarron - osi Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:44

The manner of expressing support has drawn a very extensive response.

As someone who brought the Ogoni issue to the public of Ireland in 1995 to try to save the lives of nine men who were later hanged, I was very grateful for the wide spectrum of support. for the central message from all and sundry.

As long as the Free the Rossport 5, Shell to Sea or similar slogan is the dominant message on a banner or poster then a bottom line telling what party/ NGO/person/group is supporting the slogan would be very welcome. In fact it is great to see such a true variety and I have to trust the integrity of intention.

It can also recognise possible political affinities of those in prison and assure them that they are not being forgotten by their own.

Shell to Sea should take and have the central position at all rallies and outside the Court as it bears the message from Mayo and is the identity of the campaign for the general public and the media and which we all support. Groups could augment the supply of Shell to Sea posters as a mark of genuine commitment and as a free offering. This arrangement can express true solidarity and promotion at the same time.

Lots of people are giving time and yes there is a very dedicated group of 'others' at work everyday on the campaign and who have to work out of their own limited resources of time and finance and organization.

by No Logo just principles Fri Jul 29, 2005 15:51

What message does mondays coverage in the Irish Times of last saturdays demo send to the Irish Public?

Perhaps "This is a Sinn Fein campaign"? "You would have to be a republican to join this campaign"

The photo that was chosen was of Gerry Adams talking to Mitchell McLoughlin, with Nicky Kelly in the foreground etc etc

Is that balanced or honest journalism?

WHY out of all the photos to choose did they choose that particular one? Are they trying to pigeon hole the Rossport 5 campaign in the public mind? Are the Irish Times trying to alienate the campaign from the mainstream/grassroots people of Ireland?

Why did the Irish Times photo editor not choose photos of the massive crowd as it went down O'Connell st or photos of some of the speakers, god know there were enough of them to choose from!

Why werent there pictures of the families and all their children who are now holding banners. There was a 5 year old boy on stage for most of the time outside the gpo with a homemade white tshirt saying "Free the Rossport 5". That would have been a better photo to run with the article.

That is if Shell were sympathetic with the Rossport 5 case or is it that have they realised that this story has the potential to rock the corrupt foundations of this state and they are scared to let the truth out and cover the story properly?

It must have been the most unsympathetic piece I have seen the Irish Times do on this case!

Any other thoughts?

by eeekkkk Fri Jul 29, 2005 16:02

These have proven baseless:

Here's her smarmy editorial which Dr. Crowley - good on him picked up on

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=70672&type=otherpress&results_offset=90

by hs - sp (per cap) Fri Jul 29, 2005 17:22

"My experience of pseudo-trot groups"

what experience was that then and who were the groups and what is your own political ideology?

by hs - sp (per cap) Fri Jul 29, 2005 17:24

..you couldn't possibly have an agenda?

by By Any Means Necessary Fri Jul 29, 2005 17:31

To answer your questions

Lots of experience in the six counties with swp & sp...talking the talk of revolution with out any base in the working class communities...

my politics are simply republican socialist

my only agenda is a personal hatred of nazis and their racist allies.

by No Logo just principles Fri Jul 29, 2005 18:37

When it comes to a protest march it should be about the protest's core message.

What am I about? Clear and effective communication leading to a successful campaign result - thats what Im about.

Thank you for asking.

Im not promoting the party I BELONG to.

Mainly because I dont belong to a party and dont want to belong to a party.

by Rob Speare Sat Jul 30, 2005 14:17

Nothing wrong with the political parties turning up to protests. We must understand that members of these parties usually agree with the reasons for holding protests and that there are many at these events who agree with a lot of these parties, which means that this environment is one conducive to recruiting for these parties. It is up to those at these marches and demonstrations whether or not they choose to join any given party. I content myself with being merely a champagne socialist and not allying myself with any one party.

by LOL Sat Jul 30, 2005 23:32

Carry plackards saying "Floating Voter".
Or get a big banner, "floating voters like us support this issue".
Now you'll appreciate I've moved a lot in my suggestions the last in comment number 16 above.
I'd like to think though that you're all politically aware enough to realise some of the floating voters are liars and don't vote @ all.

by Masters Voice Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:33 mastersvoice at dublin dot ie

Apart from the political pointscoring that certain parties attempts with their branded placards it is the waste of the paper and resources that often offends me. Instead of wasting valuable resources why dont these sectarian parties merely donate the funds or resources to the protest or campaign concerned. Often these campaigns dont have the megabuck budgets of the sects to produce their 'look at us arent we great' propoganda. Maybe this would be too far a political act of solidarity for the partybots?
with wespect,
MV

by Ciaron Mon Aug 01, 2005 14:35

If your movement has deteriorated to rallies and marches where parties jostle for paper sales, profile and recruitment you know its over...an unburied corpse.

This was pretty much the case with the anti-war movement in Ireland months into the (yes still ongoing) U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq (yes still using Shannon Airport as its main stopover).

Rallies and marches in the context of an ongoing grassroots campaign (blockades, vigils, pickets, haunting pollies, nvda) may have some value...as shows of strength and affirming lateral mutual solidarity.

Without that context rallies and marches are lilke MPH - an NGO Hollywwod set with little substance or some weird left ritual replacing the vaccum left by holy days of obligation in the agnostic calender.

Once you got 100,000 out for the war on Feb 15th.'03. the idea of continuing to call ever shrinking rallies as shows of strength was pretty fucking sturpid and actually undemined the significance of the 100,000. But a movement leadership bereft of courage or imagination (and prioritising party agendas) was domed to beat that well worn path, in the hope another mainstream media prioritised ambulance chasing issue would present itself to kick off the Ground Hog Day scenario all over again.

So I think in this discourse you're over rating rallies and marches. That so much what passes for socialist activity here is about branding, ,marketing and sales is kinda ironic.