Garda Shoot to Kill

by Santy Claus Fri May 27, 2005 15:38

They were scum who were robbing the post office! But they couldve been taken alive easily enough. If our armed response unit were as good as people make out they would've been able to take these guys out without killing. Its obvious that these lads have been given the right to shoot at will. Public opinion has been flowing against the Garda because of the amounts of armed robberies over the last couple of years. A scalp was needed and a scalp has been taken! Two actually!
If the ERU arent able for it then why not bring in the Rangers who are one of the most elite forces in the world to lend a hand!

by jeff Fri May 27, 2005 15:45

Coming to a post office near you!

by Al Fri May 27, 2005 15:58

"slanted as they are, Paul McWilliams the garda spokeperson oops journalist stated that an exchange of gunfire had occured" No he stated that they hadnt even gone for the gun. Get your facts right.
I see no reason for two threads on the same subject but anyway....Who do you think caused this? the Gardai for stopping an armed robbery or the gang for commiting the armed robbery? Who are you concerned for more? the safety or armed robbers or their victims?
Get over Mayday, it was over 3 years ago and its still all you have.

by Al Fri May 27, 2005 16:20

Jeff, see santas comments? see what i mean about idiots with no experience? Not a Guard, not a soldier but yet he knows the solution.

by Johnny Rotten Fri May 27, 2005 16:29

i couldnt give a shit about the robbery. However as Camus said- one should not kill if they are not prepared to die- Live by the sword, die by the sword.

by Al Fri May 27, 2005 16:32

Whos Camus?

by Jeff Fri May 27, 2005 17:05

...one Albert Camus ( your Xtian namesake) French novelist associated with existentialists, but not overtly. Wrote

The Fall

The Outsider( his most famous novel, about a bloke in 1950s French Algeria, thinks a lot, gets depressed, has a scrap with an Arab on a beach and kills him, gets guillotine.)

The Cure wrote a song about the last novel, Killing an Arab

The Fall are a brilliant band named after the first novel there of same name.
Also wrote The Plague, and other plays/novels with their titles emphasising nouns.

Years since I read the guy. Now, use your Templemore training and investigate by schticking his name into internet search engine.!He is actually a good read. I gave up on the Fall,(I was only 14 at the time) but loved the Outsider. Despite his intellectual pretensions, Camus is a very accesible novelist. Go! Recommended!

by Reader Fri May 27, 2005 18:12

[extract]
Meanwhile, Eugene Larkin, who owns the shop adjoining the post office, expressed concern that his staff and customers were put in danger and that gardai did not inform him that they were carrying out the operation.

He said there were about four customers in the shop at the time and that there was shooting inside the shop. His manager had been confronted by armed and masked men shortly after she arrived at the shop. A gun had been put into her face and she had been ordered to "hit the ground". The events became "a blur" to the four deli staff after the point where they were threatened by the raiders. "It was all over in about 30 seconds," Mr Larkin said.

"My concerns are that my staff were left there. The guards knew about this operation, this robbery was taking place. They had armed guards in the post office with the post office staff but yet left my staff unprotected in the shop and the customers as well. And I'm just not very happy with it. I'm not happy with the answers I got from the guards when I finally spoke to them at about 5 o'clock yesterday evening."

Mr Larkin claimed the post office knew about the Garda operation but that his staff had not been told.

Speaking on RTE's Morning Ireland programme, he said that if the gardai knew in advance about the robbery, they should never have allowed the gang to enter the shop.

His staff were very annoyed to learn last night that the gardai were in with post office staff and had known about the operation. It had increased the trauma for them that they had been "left exposed".

"They are very upset because they were lying on the ground and the people that were shot fell just feet from them. They were observing all this from the ground. I don't think it's right. If the guards knew that this operation, this robbery was going down, I think they should have had staff out there and maybe armed guards in posing as staff members. I'm just not happy."

Mr Larkin said he eventually got to speak to a senior garda at about 5 o'clock and he had made his unease "very clear".

by jeff Fri May 27, 2005 18:21

The only time the Gardai would inform a member of the public that they were performing a sting would be in a script from friggin SouthPark...

Try harder, guys...

by Reader Fri May 27, 2005 18:23

Mr Larkin was the owner of the shop that housed the post office. Don't think any of his concerns are justified?

by Dozzey Fri May 27, 2005 18:28

The gardai should be applauded for stopping a robbery in progress and foiling yet another attack on decent people.

The fact that the two robbers were killed is entirely their own fault regardless of whether one of them was armed or not - the fact is that the gang were armed robbers - if this was any other country apart from this tip toeing criminal biased society there would be no problem - the gardai should brandish their arsenal more often - this should act as a deterrant to anyone seeking to rob shops, pubs, delivery vans, securicor vans etc etc...

by Gerry Fri May 27, 2005 18:32 gerry.gerbil at gmail dot com

The report above, about the cops waiting until the robbers had entered the store before they opened fire, thus putting the innocent people in the PO and the deli at risk, doesn't surprise me. Years ago I worked at a betting office in London, and there'd been a spate of armed robberies of betting offices in the area in the last couple of weeks, so we were all told to keep a sharp eye out for dodgy characters behaving dodgily (well, more dodgily than yer average punter).

So one day this couple of guys we'd not seen before came into the shop, hung around looking the place over, then left without placing a bet, so we called the Met, who then promptly sent over a carfull of armed cops, two of whom were posted behind the counter out of sight, two in the car outside. When we asked WTF we should do if robbers did come in waving shooters, the cops said just duck behind the counter and let them get on with it. Isn't that grand? A betting office counter's hardly likely to stand up to a sawn-off blast, and the punters in the shop would have been completely exposed.

Luckily no-one turned up before closing time, but I was a very relieved man to lock the shop door and get the fuck out of there. It's just what I'd expect from the cops, though - a bit of 'collateral damage' is a price worth paying for a 'result'.

Gerry

by Con carroll Fri May 27, 2005 18:56

Who?were they
These were known in the drugs trade of cocaine, who couldn't give two dams about people from the working class and flats complexes in Dublin
Griffins in Sherriff street are well known. How many families in working class communities had to bury their loved ones because of the heroin trade while barons. lived in luxury of the backs of families and addicts.
One of these gang members were involved in sexual abuse against a child. and intimidated people not to give information
How many of the liberals who were shouting to the media live in the reality of the consequences of the drugs trade. are? we now to be ashamed of been working class proud of our history and fight back. or are we to bow when these parasite scum intimade people living in communities. how?many of you see the reality in Essex street, Thomas street Mercants quay. stand up and be proud and stopbowing to parasites.

by Sense Fri May 27, 2005 19:32

First of all I don't think that you can accuse someone of abusing a child when you offer no evidence and that person is not online to defend himself.

My next point is that you cannot turn a blind eye to the Gardaí killing people even if the people killed are 'scumbags'. The State will kill be able to kill 'scum' one day and then ordinary people the next. The facts are not out yet about the incident. It may well be that the Garda had to defend himself. Or it may be the case that the Gardaí did abuse their position Abbeylara style. We don't know yet we've not got the facts yet.

My final point is about Con's view of the working class. Working class people are not only those living in bad conditions. The working class are all people that work for a living. I think that to have narrow workerist type views is incorrect. Yes, there is great poverty in the places Con mentioned. It is an disgrace that there are areas in such a state. But that's still no justification for going into a post office and threatening other workers.

by Billy Jack Fri May 27, 2005 23:37

"Thursday's killings in Lusk if they occured in the north before the ceasefires and if the RUC or the Bristish army had been involved would have brought immediate public questioning by many prominent political figures and many media commentators. The silence here is deafening."

Strange, I must have imagined today's disgraceful Times editorial, and other knee-jerk reactions from the usual suspects ... Amnesty ... the Greens .... Labour. Its been a day of armchair generals and hand-wringing. Hardly 'silence'.

"McDowell gave the signal earlier with his "Operation Anvil" launch. Frankly as I discussed this with a friend we both felt that it meant the ERU would kill someone."

Yesterday's operation was part of operation Discovery, not operation Anvil.

(The Times bizarrely felt the need to call it "so-called operation Anvil" ... which is in itself interesting. Their skepticism extends even to the naming of Garda operations)


"It is evident from the reports(slanted as they are, Paul McWilliams the garda spokeperson oops journalist stated that an exchange of gunfire had occured) that one unfired gun and a sledge hammer were recovered. Two dead in a hail of bullets."

Does two bullets, both delivered to the centre of the target's body mass, count as "a hail of bullets". I would argue not, personally.

The fact that the robber's firearm had not been discharged does not in itself indicate anything beyond he was prevented from doing so. After (according to civillian witnesses) having been directed to surrender the weapon. Continuing to hold the weapon afterwards, let alone pointing it, is tantamount to asking to be shot by Gardai doing their job according to the most basic safety concerns for themselves and the public.

Likewise, anyone who thinks that a man with a close quarter weapon like a sledgehammer is someone who does not merit shooting when he charges towards you is someone not closely acquainted with the realities of violence.

"The ERU strikes again not for the first or unfortunately the last time."

As long as they are as accurate as they were yesterday, then that's no bad thing.

by jesus Fri May 27, 2005 23:52

can you not see that a monkey killing another monkey over the post office, and the green post boxes, and the whole noble "an post" tradition is wrong?
where does "don't kill" begin?
Iraq?
oh if it were a northern bank the notes would be traced.
Hath not Bill Gates and allied industries not offered thee&thee like all of you fuckers, the prospect of a computerised note and serial number scan at the hatch window of every post office every where?
Hath not science offered you a world free of those degenerates and faulty genetic types who miss when they fire, or who don't get away properly from the hit?
Hath not Television and copious amounts of computer game technology not offered you all ample experience in the killing of other monkeys?
hath not indeed.
If you go robbing post offices, get away before the local plod turn up. If you go responding to post office armed robberies, think twice how it will look on your "before Jesus now" CV.

Other than that, this is a family website,
we don't post 400,000€ bail,
we occasionally help each other out with opening squats, building websites, arguing with the social services people, solving the crossword, choosing the right private school, dealing with a robbery, avoiding the filth. of which there are many many many many types, but that's something to do with losing your innocence, which all the monkeys have. Now tomorrow we'll look at stem cell research, or so the boys don't get left out - "irresponsibility regards one's own personal sperm count", and ask, naturally did garda al (the security man in the local supermarket with ambitions), really form the most dangerous fluid-organisation terrorist, extreme right group of abusers of garda information and selection of civilian targets in the twenty first century history of the irish state.


stuff like that.
(if muhumad is weeping, you can be sure Fatima is too).

by Al Sat May 28, 2005 20:41

I dont think some of the above comments deserve a response.
I presume I am the security guard in the shop? I have given enough information on this site for people to realise I am a Garda however I am not going to give out my shoulder number so stop trying to push me.

As for the original topic, the boys did good. The vast, vast majority of people back the action and I spent all day today being congratulated and explaining it wasnt actually me that did it. Rememer me posting that he was involved in more than just armed robberies? What did the papers say?
The papers have reported on it and the CCTV will be available eventually. Unless someone here can explain how they know more about it than the papers or the Gardai I think this debate is finished.

by Pete Sat May 28, 2005 23:24

These doo gooders love the sound of their own voices, Philip Voucher Hayes from 5-7 live was pathetic on the evening radio going around lusk trying to qoute people and putting words into their mouths and create another anti Police story for his own pathetic dwingling career but he under estimated the public as has Vincent Browne who immediately saw another oportunity to try and boost the sales of his "Village rag". It is so predictable at this stage he should just change the date on the top of it each week. Give us some real stories dont be re heating old stuff and trying to create bullshit, You live by the sword you die by it, the police operation was a great sucess. These doogooders need to become victims of these vicious thugs and then they might change their views and the would be very glad to see armed Police coming to their assistance and they wouldnt give two fucks if the police shot and killed the thugs who were threatening their lives - they'd probally complain about the delay in shooting the raiders dead, Joe Duffy is another asshole

by Martha - Personal Sun May 29, 2005 00:21 catholicclone at yahoo dot ie N/A

The Gardai could have, and should have maimed and not killed the would-be robbers. History repeats itself, when people ignore and deny the facts: this Lusk incident was a repeat of the John McCarthy murder...

The reason why there is an epidemic of so-called gangland murders is because we have elected a gang of dehumanised thugs to govern our country. Its that's simple.

Only when when the Irish people come out of their collective catholicised coma will they elect normal human beings to run the country!

by Isolde Sun May 29, 2005 00:40

For those of you who are prone to solving your problems with violence, why not join the cops and help them to beat yourselves up? Better still, why not go and live in America???

by rooster Sun May 29, 2005 01:09

Want to try and explain that to us Martha, how would you go about doing this, I'd love to hear this theory.

by Wedgy Sun May 29, 2005 03:51

What?
by Al Saturday, May 28 2005, 7:41pm


I dont think some of the above comments deserve a response.
I presume I am the security guard in the shop? I have given enough information on this site for people to realise I am a Garda however I am not going to give out my shoulder number so stop trying to push me.

As for the original topic, the boys did good. The vast, vast majority of people back the action and I spent all day today being congratulated and explaining it wasnt actually me that did it. Rememer me posting that he was involved in more than just armed robberies? What did the papers say?
The papers have reported on it and the CCTV will be available eventually. Unless someone here can explain how they know more about it than the papers or the Gardai I think this debate is finished."



Sorry Al, but what proof have you got that the 'boys did good'. You have asked others, including myself to back up statements with proof so where is your proof that they did good. Were you involved in this ambush? Did you witness it? ]

I'm not suggesting for one second that the Gardai acted improperly, but I wasn't there and dont know that as a fact and neither does Al. Did the Guards murder in cold blood these two men? Maybe they did. Maybe they decided they were scum and needed to removed off the streets. Its possible, but I cant prove that so I couldnt call those Gardai murdering bastards with any more conviction than Al could suggest they donea good job.

However, I do remain suspicious that the Gardai and Government continue to prevent INDEPENDENT investigationsof such incidents. Why? Why? Why/

by Al Sun May 29, 2005 16:50

Read the papers and see the official line and the witness accounts. The CCTV while not yet in the public domainyet will also prove me right.
As for the comments about wounding. Its been explained why its not an option. Its in the papers and I have explained it, why do I have to repeat myself? If you have an opinion, thats fine, we are all entitled to that but back it up with a viable method of how your preference would work. If you think shooting to maim was plausable then explain why, thats all Im asking.

by Lusk Man Sun May 29, 2005 20:54

I live in Lusk and was woken on the day of the raid by the garda helicopter hovering overhead.

Even within the village there has been a shocking failure of compassion regarding the killing of the two men. The throw away comment of one local was that "the police should have killed them all", another that "it was no loss".

These shootings should be considered a most problematic event. Obviously the ethics of the situation depend upon the facts and an eyewitness recalled the events as follows.

The eyewitness was a customer who was standing by the deli counter reading a newspaper when the raid occured. He turned around to see a man in a balaclava pointing a handgun at him. He was told repeatedly to get on the floor by this man and did so. This ringleader then shouted encouragement to other members of the gang who were attacking the door and/or security window of the post office with a sledgehammer. Meanwhile two police men with drawn pistols advanced up the aisle of the shop, which due to the layout would have been hidden from the post office counter area. They turned the corner confronting the gang at close quarters. They announced that they were armed guardai and asked the raiders to put down their weapons. The ringleader turned on the guards with his gun at the ready and was shot by the guards (allegedly four times). The second raider (who did not have a gun) was (allegedly, according to this witness) shot once in the back as he ran for the back door. A third raider dropped to the floor where he was cuffed and shouted loudly about his helpless proximity to a growing pool of blood from one of the shot raiders.

The national media has taken to such slurs of the facts as describing the event "two men armed with a pistol were shot by guardai"...was this some sort of time share agreement? You have the gun this raid, I'll have it on the next?

Even assuming that shooting the armed ringleader was neccessary and fair in the situation we have to consider the role that the guardai played in generating that situation...why did they advance into the shop during the raid, putting staff and customers at risk when they could have made an arrest outside before or after the raid? The innocent lives of staff and customers cannot easily legitimise the killing of the raiders when these lives were jepordised partly the decision of the police to initiate a confrontation when and how they did. Just as the 'guilty' lives of the raiders cannot easily legitimise the employment of extra judicial lethal force against them.

The endorsement of this countries most senior politicians for this execution would be cited in other countries as a symptom of a police state and is of grave concern. As is the widespread lack of compassion for those that lost their lives without trial or appeal.

by Darko Sun May 29, 2005 21:17 hehe

to much talking on this matter. The Gardai at last are willing to fight back against these people. I say fair play and next time they should use assault rifles and mince them. Wingers are the reason we have so many criminal for to long the outspoken minority have had their way.

Should be an automatic death sentance for anyone who kills a garda or raises a weapson to them (no need for it to be a firearm) Look at the norm here garda cars getting rammed. If this was stateside do that and they don't care you will have 50 holes in your body should be same here. I support giving the gardai more power

by eeekkk Sun May 29, 2005 22:02

?

by donegal danny Mon May 30, 2005 00:03

look I am sure people would be happy if Donegal gardai were allowed to investigate this whole thing. You could have complete cofidence in our honesty and integrity.

by Al Mon May 30, 2005 00:26

I dont know if post mortems are too be carried out. Some examination is standard but full post mortems are usually to decide cause of death. i think its pretty obvious on this one.
The Gardai did not stop the men in advance for the reasons stated in the papers. If people wont even read the papers then one must wonder where your facts are coming from.
the witness account above differs to those in the papers. How reliable is the witness as the layout of the shop differs as well.

by Phil Boylan Mon May 30, 2005 01:04

Dr Marie Cassidy has already carried out the post mortems on the two bodies. She found nothing that she considered suspicious or out of line with what has already been announced. If the second man had been shot in the back, he would have shown that type of injury, and Cassidy would have noted it.

Dont feel any pity for these two. I guarantee these two guys were not innocent people who took a wrong turn and ended up driving up a one-way street on the wrong side. They were breaking the rules of this country by robbing the bank. They were endangering the lives of the staff and customers for their own greed. They were armed with an illegal weapon. When asked by the cops to relinquish the weapons, they were neutralised. What the fuck did they think was gonna happen??? Someone points a gun at you and you are out-numbered, most sane people would drop the weapon and accept defeat. Griffin was involved in Cocaine dealing, would be interested to see if maybe he wasnt also under the influence of it when the robbery happened.

Either way, the majority of the statements made here are biased and unfounded. I have yet to meet a person who thinks the ERU were in the wrong. Good work, now lets start getting the rest of the scumbags. (and that includes corrupt politicians!!)

by Al Mon May 30, 2005 01:12

Good call Phil.

by mr. pedantic Mon May 30, 2005 12:28

And now let's hope that the Gardai will pursue the white-collar criminals INSIDE the banks with the same diligence.

(I seem to remember a line from Berthold Brecht to the effect that robbing a bank is no crime to owning one.)

by Al Mon May 30, 2005 18:11

If they commit criminal offence they are investigated but I dont think a gun would be required.
There is a big difference between a man with a gun robbing a bank and threatening staff and a company making profits.
Why not drop the kids into the station later and I can raise them while Im at it.

by aunty neo liberal Tue May 31, 2005 01:38

Everyone on the ground knows who these vicious parasites are and the terror and oppression that they inflict on atomised and powerless communities. except of course the out of touch middle class contributers above.

by bewildered Tue May 31, 2005 11:41

People have referred to the lack of compassion for the scum killed at Lusk.

They don't deserve compassion - they wreaked havoc and untold misery on already burdened communities for years. They got what they deserved. Dublin is a small bit better for it.

by Paddy Whacker Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:07

Nice mix of views here. Some common sense some absolute shite.

If I am working in a post office and a raider runs in with a gun and they don't drop it when told by the guards, I say take him out. What sympathy would a guards family get if they hesitated and waited for a radier to shoot.

Guards have been too soft. More gardaí should be armed but not openely. If a raider thinks there is a chance of an armed unit being anywhere near one of their raids, they would think twice and not even a shot fired.

There is something to be said for non-lethal weapons being introduced but at the end of the day, TOO many gardaí and members of the public have been killed by thugs who think it is they who run the county.

Of course it doesn't susprise me that some of the ramblings here are from clowns who have no idea what they are talking about.

The Sunday World reporter Paul Williams (garda spokersperson, I like that one) is not Paul McWilliams.

Who is John McCarthy? Oh you mean John Carty.

Oh, this shoot to kill crap...don't go there....what a load of bull. If you don't want to be shot, don't put yourself in that situation don't put other peoples likes in danger.

There is always some crusty jumping on the bandwagon.

Wait for it. A garda car runs down a rabbit on the M50....they will scream: Drive to kill....drive to kill.....the rabbit was innocent.

by R. Isible Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:30

The kneejerk "they deserved it" responses miss an important probably result of this type of Garda action: a predictable escalation in the level of weaponry and violence on the part of both the armed robbers and the Gardai.

All you have to do is to survey what has happened in other countries. I look forward to the bleating moans about tragedy and lives cut short etc etc when the next gang uses armour piercing bullets and kids get caught in the cross-fire.

We'll be reading about it in five or so years if the current garda incompetence continues.

Anyone that thinks that the headbangers that do this type of thing are deterred by anything is fooling themselves. We're not dealing with people that have good decision making processes.

by Vinny fan Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:27

Journalism has changed here in the last 30 years. If in 1975 gardaí had killed two people, one of them unarmed, the media would have been in hot pursuit, writes Vincent Browne.

It would not have mattered that the two persons killed were engaged in a serious criminal act. Neither would it have mattered that one or both of these persons had been convicted previously of serious offences.

The taking of human life would have been regarded as serious and the circumstances would have been investigated. But now, who cares? Gardaí have eliminated two "scumbags" and society is all the better for having two fewer on the streets.

There was always an element of society that thought like this, mainly associated with the extreme wing of Fine Gael. The law and order brigade, although what they approved of was, in some instances at least, neither lawful nor orderly. But at least in the media there were people who thought this was an outrage, that human life deserved a modicum of respect and that when life was taken, especially by those charged with protecting life, then it was obligatory to inquire into the circumstances surrounding that.

Journalists, at one stage, regarded themselves as "adversarial". That is, adversarial to the institutions of power and those who exercised power. It wasn't that there was a belief that all who exercised power were corrupt or that the institutions of power were corrupt, but that a function of journalism was to hold those people and institutions accountable to the people and that the exercise of holding them accountable involved an adversarial stance, a critical stance, a sceptical stance.

And this was particularly appropriate in relation to the police force. Everywhere in the world police forces are invested with considerable powers vis-à-vis the ordinary citizens for reasons largely necessary and acceptable. But precisely because police forces are invested with such enormous powers, the requirement of accountability is all the more pressing.

However, as is also true for police forces around the world, the institutional accountability mechanisms are invariably lax, which imposes a special responsibility on the media to hold police forces accountable.

Therefore there is a special need for an adversarial relationship between the media and the police.

Where this applies, this is very often perceived by the police force in question as evidence of subversion on the part of the media. The media is regarded as the "enemy" and sometimes the journalists involved in such reporting are subjected to police surveillance.

Unfortunately, the media here have become largely the handmaidens of the police force, entirely co-opted by the police force, or almost entirely co-opted. The RTÉ television news, for instance, on the night of the Lusk killings could have been a promotional video for the Garda. The obvious questions were not raised and certainly not pursued.

The most obvious one being: why did the gardaí kill two people, when only one was armed? I am not saying there is not a reasonable answer to this question, perhaps there is. But if there is I have not heard it so far .

On Friday's Morning Ireland some of the obvious questions were approached, but timorously approached. The Irish Times did raise some of the critical questions in its lead story and in its editorial (perhaps the advantage of not having a full time "security" correspondent) but the Irish Independent exulted. "A job well done" it proclaimed and its security correspondent poured scorn on the "usual suspects" who demanded an inquiry. Now, the issue seems dead.

To be fair to RTÉ, however, let me acknowledge a brilliant piece of reporting by Philip Boucher Hayes on Five-Seven-Live on Thursday evening.

He reported on the extraordinary Garda conduct at the post office in Lusk - failing to notice there was a back as well as a front entrance to the post office, failing to remove innocent bystanders from the scene, and then the central question: how was it that two people were shot dead when only one was armed? Others raised these questions subsequently but Philip Boucher Hayes raised them on the day of the killings.

There is a market explanation for the media's failure to investigate these matters. It is that the public mind is now so set in the belief that "scumbags" deserve what is coming to them that to take an opposite line is to invite marked rejection.

When The Irish Times carried the "heavy gang" stories by Peter Murtagh and Joe Joyce in 1976 the paper suffered a decline in sales. Some advertisements also may have been withdrawn. That's the way it is in our free-market media world.

Another reality of the media world is that if a media outlet publishes material critical or questioning of the gardaí stories dry up from the gardaí.

This is the reality for "security correspondents" or "crime correspondents" - they can't bite the hand that feeds them.

by ipsiphi .:. Wed Jun 01, 2005 13:35

(who will guard the guards)
it's quite a humdinger as latin mottos go.
Thank you Mr V.B. and of course G.K. for that very interesting article and telling admittal :- " That's the way it is in our free-market media world."

Aren't you glad we're here.

Juvenal wrote many books, did theatre reviews, translated menus for small business folk, wrote letters for the illiterate, knocked up a few pamphlets, the usual sort of stuff. But his real speciality was satire. The line "quid custodiet ipsos custodes" occurs in his 6th book of satires at lines 347 and 348.
How Curious!!! I hear you well educated quick as lighting mercurial types cry, for it is surely too short to make two lines.
But then you'd be thinking of de Villepin still, and musing on the alexandrine. Juvenal's quippette is in fact two lines of iambic pentameter, but it stretches the rules, in that the same word, or rather the same root, "custod~" carries the end of the line.
Now as Dominique de V. would have realised by now, that means Juvenal's oft qouted lines are only part of the picture. For the rules or rather conventions for using the words of the same root, are the same in alexandrine (iambic hexameter) or iambic pentameter. And indeed, "tasty morsels on the left-overs tray for the parlour", those conventions carried over into French prosady in the XVI and XVI centuries, and they concern the nature of the final "feet" of the couplet. A "female" line may only folow a "male" line. If the same root is used as the final foot we are talking a quatrain! No civilised reader of poetry, no citizen of Rome worth their salt, in the first century after christ, would have commissioned juvenal to translate the menu, on the strength of that rather meagre and bland rhyme, they'd be demanding the whole four lines, and here's the trick, one line above and one line below brings you into other quatrains! They'd want the whole stanza. Before you could say, "rosa, rosa, rosam, rosae" they'd be promising to buy the whole book and learn how to read.

Were Dominique de V. reading this comment he might reflect that his "in-house" nickname of "Neron" connects directly to the forming tyranny of which Juvenal was savagely mocking.

Who shall guard the guards indeed?

Was quite a problem for the caesars of juvenal's day. So they created yet more and more layers of guards to guard the guards. And yet quite a few of those new tippy toppy guards still managed to get the knife in, "coz they were trusted with the sharpened implements". The fact is, the guards do need to be guarded, everywhere, and in everything. We "in indymedia" role can not do this.
But we can help keep the "opinion" rolling on. For we _do_ have our own axes to grind. & sure you know, there are others who guard the guards, which brings me to the question-

quid custodiet gutter profundum?
= who shall guard the deep throat.

by Barra Ó Gríobhtha Thu Jun 02, 2005 04:48

Both of my parents are bank officials and I am also a relative of Gerry McCabe, therefore there are no prizes for guessing the perspective I'm going to take on this.

First of all, I reject the concept of free will. If I was born Colm Griffin rather than Barry Griffin, I would have died last week in Lusk while attempting to rob a bank. At the same time I don't believe in the idea of putting innocent people's lives at risk simply because of the misfortunate circumstances a certain individual finds themselves in.

I believe it would be great if we could eliminate inequality, but unless a miracle happens in this ever more capitalist inclined nation of ours, we are left with little choice but to deal with violent crime in an appropriate “cure”-like fashion. Appropriate for me is putting the lives of innocent people first.

Bank and post office staff have their lives shattered on a regular bases in this country. My parents worked with a young man who along with his wife was taken prisoner by an armed gang in their home. Both spent over a year out of work after the incident. Last year one of the banks in my town was raided, during which the bank manager had his face smashed in before being locked in a drawer for half a day. The Credit Union across the road from my house was robbed last week. I also had a relative riddled to death by greedy pseudo-Republicans while robbing Irish people’s savings from a Limerick post office. If there were sharp shooter present that day should they have thought twice before opening fire? Should they have taken the chance and hoped for a bluff? Should they have aimed for the arm rather than the chest?

I don’t buy this whole “shoot to injure” rather than “shoot to kill” notion some people advocate. I personally think a guard shouldn’t be expected to put his live in danger, even a tad, to satisfy such a demand. When all's said and done, guards are just doing their job and they have families to return to at the end of the day just like the rest of us.

I also have to laugh at this naziesque iron-man image that people paint on behave of McDowell. It’s so typical of the type of person who has to find an antichrist to blame the ills of our society on. When I think of McDowell, I think of a man with his knickers down around his ankles struggling to keep up with the even increasing mess that this country is so insistent on pursing. And folks, please! Poverty is not the government’s fault. It is the collective responsibility of us all. For example, our choice as consumers – where we decide to shop – influences poverty. Spending your money in a store that offers poor wages, rather than spending a few Euros more in your local corner shop, helps widen the gap between rich and poor.

by how shallt thou kill? Thu Jun 02, 2005 14:19

good comment.
But on the idea of "shop local", have you not realised that not only Thatcherism but Thatcher herself grew up in a corner shop?
Inequality may not now be staved in 2005 by choosing your greengrocer, the supply of almost all consumer neccesities is in corporate hands, and the "life shattering" effects, which your relatives suffered after armed robberies, are only barely comparable to the non-starter life options, which to take just one commonplace example, the vast majority of families whose daily work it is to provide the material of your car. From the rubber on the wheels that go round, to the petrol in the tank. It is all tainted by blood and suffering and exploitation, and it doesn't take a miracle to change that, it takes consistent affirmation of the facts. Of the products in your supermarket or local shop, which you buy, less than 8 have established "fair trade" markets, 50% of "fair trade" is taken by coffee producers, and when you go look at the coffee in the kitchen or the canteen, or in the bar on the way to work - do you see "fair trade coffee"?
Throughout Europe, men and women drink the same coffee, and work in the same conditions in the local supermarket and we call this "precarity".
Precarity means the "life shattering" lack of security, a "social wage" that means increasing food poverty, ill health and less "capital income" which young parents might invest in their offsprings' future or the non-existence of children for many other young people because they never got the required security points in their society. Neither bank workers or police know what that is like. Sorry but you don't. & that's a fact. Its generally held that you chose your job option, and its inherent life-option of supporting the mortgage and liberal capitalist system, to avoid it.
Maybe "killing someone in a crime at a certain moment is ok" for you but "killing someone slowly through capital " is as of yet unthought of?
In addition you might be interested to know, that the vast majority of "corner shops" if they employ non-family members, employ workers not only in precarity, but also the "black market".

You comment well on the issue of "is it ok for a policeman to kill a criminal under certain circumstances" but you know little of the real world, which the majority of Europeans and 3rd worlders live in, and which sadly, yet naturally produces a minority who think - "I'll be a career criminal instead".

by Shocked Thu Jun 02, 2005 17:22

The idea of an independent Garda Ombudsman's office with similar powers to those seen in Northern Ireland isn't very popular with IT readers.

by Barry Thu Jun 02, 2005 23:56

Its obvious they were acting on good intelligence and lying in wait knowing exactly who was coming . How hard would it have been to hit them and box them in (ram with a couple of 4wds) on the way out when they were in the car and away from innocent civilians ?

They could easily have blocked them in and bounced out with overwhelming force ,and the ERU armed with MP5s , G3 rifles , stun grenades and Franchi SPAZ shotguns have force aplenty (along with state of the art body armour and kevlar helmets ). They could easily have boxed them in and forced a speedy surrender when civilians were out of harms way .

Sending in 2 plain clothes guards with just handguns against a gang which was quite probably coked up to the eyeballs was bound to result in bloodshed and death from the outset , potentially innocent blood too . Chances are the guards did truly feel their lives were in immediate danger and opened up which isnt a surprise given those circumstances. The circumstances in which they were ordered to act against the gang seem to be the real problem here .

That situation , a potential gunbattle in a public shop could and should easily have been avoided . The guards moved in at the very moment when the robbers were at their most hyped up and the potential for violence was at its peak . That should have been avoided at all costs .

As for those who have said the guards could have shot to wound its a fantasy in those particular circumstances and would probably have endangered even more civilians .

This stinks of another gung ho expedition by the ERUs commanders , just like the Carty shooting . Unlike this case he definitely could have been wounded . Furthermore the Carty case was badly handled from the outset by the ERU leaders . That poor man was driven to desperation by the ERUs tactics and that situation could easily have been resolved with a few packets of cigarettes and kind reassuring words . The man needed help not a claustrophobic armed siege . The ERU created a confrontation in Abbeylara when there should have been mediation and comfort for an ill young man .

The individual guards who opened up in Lusk may have felt justified in the situation but the ERU plan seems to have been gung ho and public scalps for the force rather than public safety . The responsibilty for that lies more with the planners of the garda operation than the foot soldiers who pulled the triggers .

by mc cavity - of the yard & yardies Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:24

"Two Scotland Yard officers involved in shooting a man dead six years ago, claiming they mistook a table leg he was carrying for a gun, were arrested yesterday on suspicion of his murder.

Harry Stanley, 46, a painter and decorator, died after being shot in the head and hand outside an east London pub on September 22 1999. Only last month, Chief Inspector Neil Sharman, 42, and Constable Kevin Fagan, 38, the two Metropolitan police marksmen concerned, succeeded in overturning an inquest verdict of unlawful killing. But yesterday they were arrested after new forensic evidence came to light following a re-examination of existing material. "

"The arrests are the latest twist in the long-running legal battle over the shooting outside the Alexandra pub in Hackney, east London. An anonymous 999 caller claimed to have spotted an Irishman wielding a gun wrapped in a plastic bag."

"As Mr Stanley, a Scotsman, left the pub, carrying a bag containing a wooden coffee table leg his brother had repaired, he was challenged and shot dead by the two police marksmen, who said they thought he was pointing a sawn-off shotgun at them."

Hmmmmmmmmmm.
paddy englishman
paddy irishman
paddy scotsman.

The whole story is @ this link :-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,2763,1498393,00.html
I'm sure it will be a suitable "compare & contrast", considering that Scotland Yard are firmly behind their men ""These officers were asked to make a split-second life and death decision ... six years later their decision is still being examined by the legal system. How many of us would want to be in that position?"", and those split second moments occured when the irishman with the sawn-off became a scotsman with a table leg.

Every time someone is shot, everytime a bullet is shot, our attention is merited, and obligatory. The very fact that the sort of civilisation we have worked long to help emerge in Europe, UK and Ireland generally restricts the use of arms, and firearms in particular, means "we're interested" because whomever gets to carry those guns are special.
And engaged in activity which though described as "just a job" has the real potential for long lasting social effect, which may run counter to the true needs of security of the citizens.

(you will note there are no yardies in this story, though for you experts, the incident in 1999 occured against the backdrop of a spate of armed crime in the Greater London area which saw yardie (jamaican origin) gangs fight with Dominican (origin) gangs over control of the lucrative crack cocaine market and trade in guns, this provided "background noise" of fair play to the boys in blue for using their shooters.)
"riveting" rather than "ribbiding"

by mc cavity Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:38

the "background noise" of that period
the innocent deaths of that period
and the actual reduction in violent crime, or rather the efffectivity of the task the metropolitian police had.
with the stance adopted by the Garda Siochana in circumstances which are not dis-similar in recent cases. The Yard used all its powers (which are not inconsiderable) to stop this process of investigation, "closing ranks" for their own facing criticism for "just doing their job".

But that's the difficult thing.
Its a very well paid job.

& its supposed to be about protecting lives.
Its *not* about making split second decisions and becoming summary executioners. We do not want that type of society, that would be "too american" and before that type of society is allowed, we would naturally use "all our powers" (which are not inconsiderable) to extend the right to arms to everyone, post office worker, local corner shop paperboy, career criminal and furniture restorer...

He was not Paddy Yardie, He wasn't even Paddy Irishman, He wasn't Paddy Englishman.

by Al Sat Jun 04, 2005 19:23

Barry,
You speak about the cigarettes which is interesting as I had this conversation with a civilian instructor in templemore. She said the same thing she did (Are you sure your not a female psych teacher? ;) ) The problem is who gives them to him? Its not realistic to send an unarmed man into the house to give him the cigarrettes and have a friendly chat. The stand-off lasted hours so it was hardly a rush in guns flying operation now was it? Also remember that nearly all armed forces around the world stated they would have taken him out sooner. As for Lusk, 2 things. 1. Ramming is not permitted anymore as there was a public outcry about civilian safety the last time a criminal was rammed by a Garda vehicle, if you think that was a better option then complain to those that bitched when we did use such tactics. 2. Stopping them before the raid woudl have resulted in what? charges for having a stolen vehicle? Oh wow, couple of months in the Joy Max. Firearm? Add a year (maybe).

For those that are interested in internal affairs in particular the London Met, I suggest reading 'Bent coppers' by McLagan. Its a superb book that details the setting up of CIB in the London Met, their tactics and their successes. A shining example of how Internal affairs departments can and do work, far better than any ombudsman.

by Barry Sat Jun 04, 2005 21:07

The Guards wanted a particular result , scalps . Public safety came second . The object of the exercise wasnt to stop the robbery or ensure public safety but lengthy convictions or dead bodies .This time they were fortunate in getting the result they wanted . Next time these gung ho operations could well result in innocent deaths . On one of their last outings remember they managed to shoot each other .

As for Abbeylara that youngman hadnt threatened anyone and had no history of violence . His own family werent allowed to speak to him . He could very easily have been talked out of there and before the setting up of the ERU Ive no doubt he would have been . The advice of foreign agencies and how they would happily blast the life out of their citizens with machine guns is secondary in my opinion . Those countries have populations of tens of millions were people dont know each other most of the time . Abbeylara wasa small close knit community and that young man was known not to be dangerous . Sometimes theres an Irish solution to an Irish problem . And that doesnt mean treating an ill depressed young man like Carlos the Jackal . It still depresses me thinking about that .

by Al Sat Jun 04, 2005 23:22

barry,
Your knowledge of the situation seems a bit off. the man had a history of mental illness and his gun license was rejected by the local Superintendent but granted after sworn information from the mans GP claiming his safety to hold a gun.
Secondly, I find it outragious that a person with no law enforcement knowledge, experience of training feels qualified to lecture those that know it best. EVERY police force in the world agreed with the actions, all the experts are wrong but a layman is right? Think again.
As for Lusk, a sting operation always involves catching them in the act, be it robbery, drugs, etc. To change that would be letting criminals away with serious crime. Is that a viable alternative?

by Barra Ó Gríobhtha Sun Jun 05, 2005 05:49

>>But on the idea of "shop local", have you not realised that not only Thatcherism but Thatcher herself grew up in a corner shop?
Inequality may not now be staved in 2005 by choosing your greengrocer, the supply of almost all consumer neccesities is in corporate hands, and the "life shattering" effects, which your relatives suffered after armed robberies, are only barely comparable to the non-starter life options, which to take just one commonplace example, the vast majority of families whose daily work it is to provide the material of your car. From the rubber on the wheels that go round, to the petrol in the tank. It is all tainted by blood and suffering and exploitation, and it doesn't take a miracle to change that, it takes consistent affirmation of the facts. Of the products in your supermarket or local shop, which you buy, less than 8 have established "fair trade" markets, 50% of "fair trade" is taken by coffee producers, and when you go look at the coffee in the kitchen or the canteen, or in the bar on the way to work - do you see "fair trade coffee"?

The point I’m trying to make is that society, not governments and corporations, are fundamentally to blame for the conditions you mention above. I don’t have a car and I don’t have a mobile phone, I don’t drink tea, I don’t drink coffee and I don’t eat chocolate, and most of the clothes I wear are hand downs from my brother or father. These are my choices not Bertie Ahern’s or Bill Gates’. I’m not perfect, and I fully realise that I am sitting in front of a computer that has components in it that were made on assembly lines in third world countries, and that the materials used in the construction of these components were mined by workers in appalling conditions, and that oil from Iraq was in turn used to ship these components around the world, eventually to my house. The same can be said for the routers and servers that allow me and you to access this website. I realise that, but if you compare my lifestyle with those of the average person in Ireland my age, rich or poor, I’m at least making some class of an effort.

I’m also putting together an organic garden at the moment which is again my choice. When I was a kid, most of my neighbours grew spuds and cabbage and the likes in their back gardens. Today people are happy, or happily ignorant, to buy produce from poorer people, helping to exacerbate the inequalities that exist in our world. “Fair Trade” to me is somewhat of a mute point – but I welcome it of course. I believe we should produce all our own food thereby giving the third world the opportunity to do things other that produce on our behalf. It will also cut down on pollution.

When I was in college, I used to get Bus Éireann home rather than the cheaper and quicker private alternative. The vast majority of students took the private option and that again was their choice. Privatization increases the gap between rich and poor as I’m sure you know. The government supplied us with an option in recent years, and it seems the average Irish person is presently prepared to take the moral low-ground on this issue. The alternative is an authoritarian system where people are given one choice and one choice only - Bus Éireann. Now this is all well and good, but at the end of the day I think it is better if we evolve into a society that takes public transport because we believe it is in our collective best interest rather than having it rammed down our throat by the socialist elite. Implementing a Socialist agenda in an authoritarianism fashion is always doomed to failure – just look at the USSR. Most Irish people today don’t think in socialist terms, and it is up to those of us who do to promote our beliefs on a one to one level. While Ireland has become more liberal in recent years, we have accelerated at an even quicker rate towards the right.

My sister worked in the local shop in my town for over a year as she saved money to return to college. Her job in this shop was interesting and challenging. She had to place orders, converse with the punters etc, etc and she enjoyed it most of the time. Working at a supermarket checkout on a lifelong basis would break anyone through boredom and lack of prospect – especially in a large town or city where you don’t even know the people you’re dealing with. If my sister was a working class woman with children, she would have brought optimism home with her every day and this would have inspired her children.

Growing up, I never once asked myself if I was going to college or not, nor did anyone explicitly state that I was going. I went because even though neither of my parents went, I subconsciously realised that in order to achieve in life what they have, I would have to go to college. I grew up in rural Ireland where society wasn’t split along class lines. I had friends from the local council housing estate and I certainly don’t remember there being a noticeable difference in wealth between them and myself. In fact, I remember being slagged one day in National School by two of them for having shitty cheap runners, after which I went home complaining to my mother about the fact that we couldn’t afford Reebok like them. Her excuse was that these lads could afford such runners because they got a footwear grant. So, the next time the lads started on about my shoes, I said “Well my mammy said the only reason you can afford them is because you get a grant from the government”. To which one of them replied sarcastically “Well maybe you should ask your mammy if you can get one too?”. Come to think of it, these guys had Nintendos and one of them had satellite TV, which I certainly never had as a kid. Now the point I’m trying to make here is that despite this, neither of these guys went to college, in spite of the fact that tuitions fees are paid, and despite the fact that there is a maintenance grant. One of them lost his job on an assembly line last year. When talking to him recently, the two of us were laughing at the fact that he would often land into school as late as two o’clock in the evenings some times. I was motivated by my parents to work hard in school and in college and he certainly wasn’t.

The fundamental point I’m trying to get at is that you can increase the dole all you like but it won’t motivate people to make the most of their lives and this lack of motivation imbedded in certain families in our society is induced by the fact that some of us have interesting jobs and some of us clean toilets for a living. I believe we should focus on removing the demeaning jobs from our society and have everyone clean their own toilet. Instead, we are importing people to Ireland to do the jobs we'd rather not do and our society will pay massively for that, in terms of social chaos, over the coming decades. When I was in Finland, I noticed while in a canteen one day that everyone sorted they’re knifes and forks etc. into separate trolleys after their meals. This makes the wash-up process much easier. The Irish answer would be to find a few immigrants to sort them, while claiming to give them a better shot at life.

>>Throughout Europe, men and women drink the same coffee, and work in the same conditions in the local supermarket and we call this "precarity".

Europe? I don’t know much about the place (like most Irish people). Outside of Ireland, I’ve only ever been to England or Finland. To be honest, I’d have to say I have a much better understanding of societies in America, Canada, Australia, or Britain than I would of those of Austria, Portugal, or Slovenia, or Luxemburg, through media and cultural interaction (particularly through the types of music I listen to).

>> Precarity means the "life shattering" lack of security, a "social wage" that means increasing food poverty, ill health and less "capital income" which young parents might invest in their offsprings' future or the non-existence of children for many other young people because they never got the required security points in their society. Neither bank workers or police know what that is like. Sorry but you don't. & that's a fact. Its generally held that you chose your job option, and its inherent life-option of supporting the mortgage and liberal capitalist system, to avoid it.
Maybe "killing someone in a crime at a certain moment is ok" for you but "killing someone slowly through capital " is as of yet unthought of?

If you look at my post again, you’ll see that I accuse social divisions in our society of being the root cause of bank robberies. Root causes though don’t matter a damn to someone with a gun stuck in their face. Again it all comes down to prevention rather than cure. If you fail to prevent, then the cure (hard as that might be to swallow) is the only available option. If the poorest man on the planet pointed a gun at me, I wouldn’t hesitate to shoot him. That doesn’t mean I don’t make an effort in fighting poverty.

>> In addition you might be interested to know, that the vast majority of "corner shops" if they employ non-family members, employ workers not only in precarity, but also the "black market".

Not traditionally, and certainly not where I live. A Lidl opened up in my town lately and they employ mostly foreigners alright.

>>You comment well on the issue of "is it ok for a policeman to kill a criminal under certain circumstances" but you know little of the real world, which the majority of Europeans and 3rd worlders live in, and which sadly, yet naturally produces a minority who think - "I'll be a career criminal instead".

Oh right I get you now, you have to be working class or poor to live in the real world. Do you think those three sisters in Britain aged 12, 14 and 16 respectfully who each had a kid in recent days are living in the real world? Give me a break. I graduated some months ago with a Masters degree in Software Engineering after 6 years in college while friends of mine who never went to college made fortunes. Not only is it very difficult for someone with my qualifications to get a job, but when you question the morality of the job you are applying for it becomes next to impossible. Not only do I live in the real world, but I can clearly see the problems facing Irish society while most people here ignorantly congratulate themselves on how we’ve never had it so good.

by Al Sun Jun 05, 2005 22:10

Barra Ó Gríobhtha,
Thats an excellent post, unfortunately it will be ignored as you (Like myself) took some responsibility for our lives and based on some decent upbringing from our parents (who sacraficed much to provide for us) have continued this trend. This unfortunately leaves you earning slightly more than someone with no job (Isnt that the point of education and working hard?), possible owning your home (you huge big dream world wanker).
This all means that we are not entitled to be considered part of the human race or have such lovely people, as those on this site, look out for our interests.
Personally, my eyes have been opened, Im quitting my job, selling the house, giving all my money to charity and living on the streets from now on. My daughter doesnt really need education and such creature comforts. And it will teach her the real life lesson that we were unfortunate enough not to be taught by our parents, "Its everyone elses fault and they owe you big time".
Mind you my name on a list always seems to get responses just dont expect them to be intelliogent or relevent.

by Nicolo Sun Jun 05, 2005 23:13

Al, sorry again for jumping to a different issue but thanks to your colleagues yesterday at the Israel protest, they were helpful, friendly and courteous and professional. There was only some minor incidents when Israeli supporters tried to cause trouble and the Gardai did the right thing, they stopped the agitators i.e. the israelis so again thanks

by Al Mon Jun 06, 2005 13:46

Yes Nicolo it was a good day, I told you that the Gardai were on your side however I also said the flags would cause trouble and they did. However you could have posted this in the relevent link.
Of course you realise now that you will be accused of either being me or being a Garda.

by HappyHippy Tue Jun 07, 2005 01:29

>>Europe? I don’t know much about the place (like most Irish people). Outside of Ireland, I’ve only ever been to England or Finland. To be honest, I’d have to say I have a much better understanding of societies in America, Canada, Australia, or Britain than I would of those of Austria, Portugal, or Slovenia, or Luxemburg, through media and cultural interaction (particularly through the types of music I listen to).

Here here! All this European brotherly and sisterly love is completely over my head too. We are more in tune with countries that Irish people have migrated to and who speak the same language as us.

Good posts Barra! Its good to hear a bit of common sense.

by Al Tue Jun 07, 2005 19:39

Point proved I think.

by homemaker Tue Jun 07, 2005 20:14

do you really think your family finances justify your political stance?
I doubt anyone would expect you to sell it all off and give it to a listed charity, should the pope sell the vatican and everything within to whomever owns coca cola or nestle for advertising?

by billpayer Tue Jun 07, 2005 21:20

I've worked, and with a child sitting their leaving certificate tomorrow morning, know that if had been better paid, his results could be different.
Yes, its his work, his attention to detail, his comittment that goes into the english tomorrow and the irish next, and all of it. He wants to go on, he likes education I suppose. And I didnt have the chance to go on, at first, I had to work and work hard. And I went on working, and didn't get well paid. And I could have been a guard I was tall enough, but I didnt. I suppose Al is shorter than the guards used to be. So I worked, and there are many like me, and I got my home, and I just about kept the car, but once got stopped by a guard for being late on the tax. And yes, I'd like a better house, I'd like a better car, and yes, I give to charity, and yes, I don't have enough, but one thing I know is my son, and all the kids that sit down to their exams tomorrow don't have some things they way I had them.
They're going to work hard, and work, and go on working harder, they're going to get whatever education someone says they need to work hard, and what kind of house or home will they get?
Are they going to have kids? Are will that be a luxury that comes with a good sallary? Are they going to be guards?
I am sitting here so he doesn't mess up his last few hours of being a kid of sorts, he is the one normally here. And this is the first comment I've ever left. And I know there are men and women out there who know what I mean.
(great service keep it up. i must do a nightcourse on languages!LOL

by Al Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:45

Billpayer is not me in case anyone thinks he/she is but I garee with the comments.

Work hard and get the benefits, thats my point. Provide for your children as best you can, thats being a decent parent. Prepare for the future and get the benefits or sit at home and blame everyone else for your situation.
Personal responsibility, it got lost somewhere, can you find it?
BTW, Im a tax payer so yes, I do have a right to say where my tax is going.

by io Wed Jun 08, 2005 21:23

Al agrees with bill-payer, and for the right reasons, we _do_ provide a great service, and language attainment is wonderful, enriching and well, think of bill-payer's son at the gaeilge tomorrow. I'd just to love to know, is Al shorter than the average guard used to be? And has his enthusiasm for protecting the weakest of society ever been channelled into the grim and dreary task of checking the tax-disks? You know how it is, Al, even the ERU checked tax-disks at some stage. Which brings me to the point- This thread of 50ish comments is about the idea that the Gardaí siochana emergency response unit were and are allowed:-

"shoot to kill".

by = Wed Jun 08, 2005 21:27

"acting on a *shoot to kill* order"

Emergency Response Unit of An Garda Siochana

by Old Bill Thu Jun 09, 2005 04:11

Following the civil war and the setting up of the state, one of the most sensible decisions ever made was the decision to have an (mostly) unarmed police force. The move away from that model of policing will lead to a more polarised society. If that is what you want, al, you must be prepared to live with the consequences.

by Al Thu Jun 09, 2005 18:22

They arent working of a shoot to kill order, the can however shoot to kill if they deem it necessary under the circumstances.
Who are you or I to question the individual, we were not in the situation of having a gun pointed at out heads.

As for Arming the Gardai, I never stated I wanted that, I want more than a 12 inch stick but hey, Im not going to get it.
The decision to have an unarmed police force was an experiment that when reviewed was adopted against the desire of the first 3 Commissioners (including civilians). Since then it has been suggested and denied on numerous occasions.
Funny thing about it is the Gardai on the beat are rarely asked what they think.
Now I have to go, my flight is in a few hours.

by Barry Thu Jun 09, 2005 18:40

Dont be bringing back any offensive weapons in your luggage

by - Thu Jun 09, 2005 22:07

At a time when most children prepare to go to school, Saurabh Nagvanshi is off to the office.

Saurabh works at a police station in Raipur, the capital of India's central state of Chhattisgarh. He is five years old.

He is part of an Indian system that allows a family member to take the post of a government employee who dies while in service.

There is no age limit and many families have no alternative but to send young children to work to make ends meet.

Saurabh has to feed a family of five and so his mother, Ishwari Devi Nagvanshi, holds his hand and takes him the 110km (68 miles) from Bilaspur, where they live, to Raipur.

Intrigued?????????????
read more:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4073204.stm

by John O'Connell - none Sat May 06, 2006 04:07

The Emergency Respons Unit are a highly trained and extremely well equipped unit. When the shot dead those two scumbags in Lusk they did society a favour. It is a fact maybe not well known but anybody the eru has shot they have killed! I live in Limerick City and the lowest of the scumbags are terrified of the emergency response unit.

The scum in Limerick have high powered weapons but the eru can easily match them and what the sucmbags are terrified of is the eru KNOW how to use them. If the eru shoot you they will kill you. I have heard of cases in limerick where they break down doors of scumbags homes at 7am and will pint a powerfull handgun against a scumbags head, and they have sorted the problem ther out.

The vast majority of the feuding scum in Limeriick are now serving long prison sentences thanks to the eru.