Independent Republican Candidates Take A Fall

by Hard core Irish Republican Sun May 22, 2005 13:48 Leitrim South Down

Mick and his family have held the Republican movement together for decADES IN OUR COUNTY.

Placing a new Sinn Fein so called respectable candidate in South Down is an insult. Why are we not respectable Sinn Fein Irish republicans already?

Give this woman a break elsewhere - you dumped her out of west belfast and now you have to pay her back for her Columbian 3 expolits. Use her without abusing South Down.

Vote Mick Murphy -a time tested Irish Republican.

by Paul Sun May 22, 2005 01:18 Mayobridge

I was a first time Sinn Fein voter but I will not be voting for Caitriona Ruane again as an MLA or MP. She was parachuted into the county and has made no impression due to the fact she is never in the county. Mick Murphy is a local man and one who you can depend on. At least the people know where they can contact Mick Murphy.
Sling your hook Caitroina, you are a gold digger and a political opportunist who has tried and failed to beak on to the political sceen on the backs of long time and hard working republicans in South Down. Where were you when Mick Murphy went to jail for his beliefs?

by Lower Falls (Wack) Fri May 20, 2005 12:45 Belfast

Garvaghy will be sacrificed by SF have no doubt about that.

SF are working with the brits to tie up loose ends or as they both regard the problem, loose cannons.


The Nelson inquiry is a sham If Rosemary was alive she would never have settled for this sham for her own clients. Where is the uproar for her in this sham.


The Finucane Campaign if not managed by the family would be fudged also by SF if it isn't already. The family won't settle for anything less than what Pat Finucane himself would have wanted for his clients.

The Orange order and DUP are turning up the heat as usual in the run up to July. They will want as usual a return to how it was, Unionist domination and nationalist submission.

SF supporters should open their eyes and stop chanting victory. Adams is a liar and his yes men and women haven't the balls to speak out on any pro gerry matters.

SF desperately need to change its leadership if it wants to keep working class voters onboard. But there is the rub, does it care about the working class hard core support. The people who went to jail, died and spent a life time loyal to the IRA volunteers but not SF? I don't think so. SF leadership is behaving in a highly elitist manner and a talk down to and know best approach towards the working class core vote and families.

The families where the volunteers and hunger strikers came from and might once again have to make a stand while the Irish people are being bargained away by SF in exchange for prestige and power.


As an Irish republican it is my not only my duty but my right to voice such concerns. I call on all other Irish republicans to do the same. Many are doing so on this board which is to be commended and something should emerge from the Independent Irish Republican stand. If nothing else the independent Republican should act as Gerry Adams alter Ego in the absence of anyone within SF serving this purpose.

Adams is not fully to balme for all this, current SF members are for not speaking up. There is a lot of talk about UNITED IRELAND but where is the United Democratic Socialist Irish Republic Talk gone?

by Barry Fri May 20, 2005 02:21

You did

by realist Fri May 20, 2005 00:53

You started it.

by realist Fri May 20, 2005 00:52

You would know.

by Barry Thu May 19, 2005 19:17

unhinged , loopy , daft , mad , daft as a brush, full of mad dogs shite .
What a load of utter nonsense .

by realist Thu May 19, 2005 19:04

The Brits as you call them are the only people who want a United Ireland without conditions. The main stumbling block is Sinn Fein, who are not prepared to have one until they have built up their political base in the Republic of Ireland.

Or maybe they will be happy enough ruling the Six Counties. They are the winners after all, love them or loathe them.

As for Unionism. Well they are finished, even they know that, otherwise Paul Berry would be leading the DUP.

by Interesting Thu May 19, 2005 11:09 South Down

Sunday life article can be viewed at link

17 May 2005

http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=639216


SINN Fein's Caitriona Ruane could become the first high-profile casualty of the party's failure to win South Down in the General Election.

by Real South Down Republican Thu May 19, 2005 00:52

i agree that negotiation and doing deals are necessary but the reality of the situation is that untill Britain recognises our right to national self determination and sovereignty then negotiations are likely to get us as republicans nowhere. The last time republicans engaged with the Brits, free state and Unionists we were sold a pup ie the GFA. this copperfastened partition by bulding in the notion of self dtermination in the 6co's
also known as the unionist veto. Trying to negotiate with unionism when they have a legal (though not under international law) guarantee that the constitutional position will not change untill they want it to makes the event less likely. This fact is borne out by the recent election results whereby more and more unionists are taking a position to safeguard their place within the union and less and less are willing to negotiate meaningfully. No other party to this agreement other than those who call themselves republicans is willing to push the issue of Irish unity. This is consistent with the whole ethos on which the agreement was built where Britains illegal sovereign claim was not up for discussion whereas the Dublin government abandoned theirs. The 32 County Sovereignty Movement are willing to engage with ALL parties to the conflict in Ireland on the basis that the sovereignty issue is up for discussion and a real meaningful debate as to the future of the unionists in Ireland. This is something we hope to begin shortly and we hope that debate will be progressive. Debate is essential for progression and we look forward to engaging with all political traditions in Ireland.

by Realist Wed May 18, 2005 23:52 Antrim

At last Barry has seen the light. Doing deals, compromise, that's the road to a United Ireland of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter. Well spotted Barry.

by Barry Wed May 18, 2005 17:10

The only thing you can be sure of is that Paul Berry wont be leading them down the road . If Sinn Fein can enforce a deal against the wishes of Ardoyne and Springfield residents what makes you think they wont do it in Garvaghy too ? The DUP are now the goverment in the north , what if Garvaghys on their wish list ?
Sinn Fein are more than capable of doing a deal behind peoples backs , thats what the GFA is built on . There was no mass exodus of members in Ardoyne or Springfield , even when Kelly physically defended the Brits .
Why would Portadown be any different .
By co-opting Brendan McKenna theyve indicated they want to control the issue themselves . If orangemen on Garvaghy will get them into Stormont quicker theyll do it surely .

by Tucker Wed May 18, 2005 14:47

Celine sounds more like a disgruntled Sinn Feiner than any of the rest of the Independent Republican supportrers posting on this thread.

There will not be Orange feet on the street on the garvaghy.

Sinn Fein can claim representation rights like the rest of us but the issue does not belong to any Sinn Fein member including brendan,

The people on garvaghy have the overall right to say but not Sinn Fein. Celine could well point to the Springfield Road and Ardoyne where it was obvious that Sinn Fein is now hi jacking the Residents issues and concerns and using them as bargaining chips.

But is garvaghy Road a bargain chip? I don't believe so. To use our road as a bargain chip would justify much of the criticism levied against Sinn Fein by the disgruntled hoardes on this thread and elsewhere. Sinn Fein are not that stupid.

I was as surprised as anyone else that Brendan Mc kenna received a Sinn Fein promotion and pay packet but the Orange imposition on the Garvaghy Road is a dead issue. Gone forever.

by Barry Wed May 18, 2005 01:11

That desiption of the orange order sounds very much like the current internal state of Sinn Fein .
Now I know why Billy/Liam feels so at home . He might even join the peelers again while hes at it .

by Celine Wed May 18, 2005 00:29 Portadown

Orange Order is permeated with all the trapping of religion. It is a religion that is all about desecrating all others which is not aligned with it. The chosen ones.

It is a religious cult based on White Anglo Saxon Protestantism Supremacy blessed by their notion of god.

So much so that SF will negotiate with the DUP about a a march down the garvaghy - taking bets now.

David Jones and Big Ian to jig the garvaghy 2005.

by John Wed May 18, 2005 00:20 Randalstown

According to Sinn Fein workers at the doorsteps in Antrim and Randalstown Meehan and Mc Manus were removed and utilised by thje leadership to maximise votes which they say has worked. They SF have 3 councillors in an area where they had 2.

Gubba's election workers told punters in Randalstown that the entire comhairle Ceanntair had been suggesting removing them (Meehan and Mc Manus) both elsewhere for years - strange and stupid that SF is only listening now after cumann members resigned in Antrim, Randalstown and Toome.

Toome SF members wanted to release the good services of both councillors after they refused to condemn the "accidental shooting" of a POW, who was accosted by the "ceasefire general". This lost SF precious premises did it not? The SF offices.

Why wasn't the ceasefire hero reprimanded? At least moving the former councillors from Toome helped something - at least Gubba is in. Now we can get the drug dealing scum removed from the River walkway in Randalstown.

Well done Gubba he deserved to be elected.

by Barry Tue May 17, 2005 23:55

Since when is orangism a religion ?

by realist Tue May 17, 2005 22:18 Antrim

Barry, I was unaware that Eamon McCann had grown a beard. He was the only candidate I was really interested in during the election. Rejecting Independent Republicans doesn't mean one supports Sinn Fein. Unlike you, I always knew they were fascists.

And it was you who pointed out that the ex-ruc candidate was an Orangeman. Why mention that, if his religion does not concern you.

by Barry Tue May 17, 2005 15:10

If a former RUC however was to become convinced by my arguments , that the GFA is a copperfastening of British rule , which is itself illegitmate , that would be an interesting development , obviously .

But Billy Leonard certainly doesnt fall into that category . He still supports the cops and always has .

by Barry Tue May 17, 2005 15:05

I have no problem with anyone from a unionist background developing a republican analysis . I know of one case of where someone who was originally aligned to the UDA in the early 70s ( when basically every adult male in the shankill was) rejected loyalism and opted to join the provos at the height of the conflict instead . I would commend that individual for personal integrity . That was a genuine conversion to republicanism .

Leonard on the other hand was an RUC man who later joined the SDLP , which continually
expressed support for the RUC and urged people to become informers . His recent decision to join Sinn Fein comes as they are on the verge of signing up to the PSNIs DPPs and ruling Police authority .

Similarly he joined Sinn Fein only after they accepted the legitimacy of partition , British rule and the unionist veto (and when SDLP fortunes were on a steep downward curve) .Therefore his support for British police and British rule and institutions on this island has remained constant . In my eyes he is nothing more than a careerist and an opportunist , not someone who has been convinced by any republican argument . In a few months he will be back openly proclaiming his support for the RUC/PSNI while they continue to stitch up and jail young republicans . And hell be taking the party line that he is a more authentic republican than the poor sods the PSNI are carting off to jail .

His religious background is a total non-issue as far as Im concerned . But it would be true to say I do have a problem with former RUC men in general . I doubt Id have much time for any of them .

by Curious Tue May 17, 2005 11:01

New Sinn Fein taking hold?

by P O'Neill Mon May 16, 2005 18:33

Barry, i'll rephrase what I said as I mustn't have put it right. Is it just Billy Leonard you have a problem with or is it all ex RUC men?. If an ex RUC man/woman was convinced of your arguments would you have a problem with them?

I'm only focusing on RUC because Billy Leonard was one, but obviously I mean all originating from the unionist/loyalist perspective.

by Barry Mon May 16, 2005 12:16

Lets get this straight Tony . $inn £ein have now adopted the novel approach of solving loyalist intimidation in Rathenraw by actually doing it for them ??
Ingenious solution .
Just like the loyalists you also refer to these lifelong republicans as scum.
By the way Ive asked you before what are your views on joining the PSNI and its DPPs . Do you have any views on the subject . Were Sinn Fein telling voters whether they were signing up to the peelers or not ?

by Bill Sun May 15, 2005 21:44 Tyrone

As a former POW it saddens me that the like of ET is on the gravy train, there is no word of the men and women he was responsible for sending to Gaol in Dec. 1988 most of whom got 20 plus years. I blame him as he was afraid of the dark and did not cross fields like he was meant to instead walked down a well lit road scuppering the East Tyrone Brigades attempt at wiping out another bus load of brits like they had done at Ballygawley a few months earlier. PS He got most of the ETB staff caught including the then OC .

by Tony Sun May 15, 2005 21:14

Looks like I touched a raw nerve here. The Antrim Town rejects now Independent Republicans have got their answer at the polls.

Consider this also since the 2 M's sorted this scum out. There have been no sectarian attacks or murders in Antrim. Fact.

No Loyalist protest at catholic schools, no loyalist attacks against Catholic school buses and no loyalist attacks against Catholic youth in Antrim. fact.

Loyalist Evictions, intimidation etc - sorted. Fact.

All Loyalist attacks sorted thanks to the 2 M's. Fact.


Now we have the other issues - The Orange arch in Crumlin sorted this year. Work in progress.

The flags at mixed schools in Crumlin sorted.

Space for Irish schools and nurseries sorted.

It is not what you ask or demand it is who you send sometimes that creates the resistance.

Peace in Antrim now that the scum has been removed. Well done to the 2 M's. All this speaks for itself - no apologies granted.

Vote Sinn Fein

by Barry Sun May 15, 2005 20:39

Perish the thought .

I knew you were joking and was joking myself . I thought I already had answered you .

My dislike of Billy Leonard has NOTHING whatsoever to do with his religious background . In fact youre the only person making an issue of it .

Its based upon the fact, which I already pointed out, that he was an RUC man for years, then an SDLP man which supported the ruc, and now joins Sinn Fein AFTER they have accepted partition , Stormont and British rule and are on the verge of signing up to the PSNI .
.
He hasnt made a huge ideological shift , Sinn Fein has !! . What "republican " argument has he been convinced by ? Sinn Fein have accepted the very statelet Billy Leonard swore to protect in the RUC ( along with the unionist veto). They are sworn to uphold its institutions and beg the British government to restore them .

With the SDLP fading fast Leonard just made a career move , not an ideological one . Im every bit as scathing of Sinn Feins crop of former stoops and ceasefire soldiers in my own area ( who actually are nationalists in EVERY sense of the word) . And to accuse me of "exclusionary politics" is a joke frankly given Sinn Feins treatment of anyone in the party who dissents from the Adams line .
Jaysus .

As for my attitude towards other religions its probably worth pointing out the fact I was educated alongside protestants all my life , socialised, shared houses with , went on holidays with them and had protestant girlfriends too .

Sectarianism was always strictly forbidden in my home , my own father and mothers protestant friends were welcome . Some of them were republican in outlook and even married to republicans .It was a republican home and not a nationalist one .

by P O'Neill Sun May 15, 2005 20:03

Barry i am neither a peeler nor Billy Leonard. I asked you two questions one was a joke about guns. The second was serious, it was about your attitudes towards people who come from a different background and who are convinced by republican arguments. Your refusal to answer it annoys me as does the way you brushed it off. It is my belief after this that you are not a republican but a nationalist in the true sense of the word, one with sectarianism and exclusionary politics.

by Barry Sun May 15, 2005 15:07

As cheap shots at people go Tonys remarks on Ciaran Cummings murder take the biscuit.
If Tony has any decency he'll apologise and withdraw those remarks . I think it would be best all round though if this young mans murder wasnt turned into a political football here by anyone .

Tonys accusation is so beneath contempt, never mind without factual basis it can clearly be seen as such and shouldnt be dignified with any argument . Im sure most Sinn Fein supporters would agree too .

by A Friend Sun May 15, 2005 14:46 Greystone Antrim Town

Check out this web site link for how Cairan Cummings should be remembered.

Shame on you Tony!

by William Orr Sun May 15, 2005 14:34

For Tony's benefit here is further background which appears to be missing from his sickening revised history on What happened in Antrim.

The previous Antrim cumann contained many life long Irish Republicans, not fagans and they were attacked and received death threats from gangs led by senior Irish republicans.

There were 3 former IRA Volunteers, 2 Former Irish republican POW's and countless dedicated men and women facing an enemy without and and enemy within. Many of these members received death threats from people led by a senior Irish Republican.

Ciaran Cummings was murdered by associates of the UVF. This is often dressed up as RHD etc and the murder was intially blamed on a drugs related killing by Republicans.

It is shameful that you are being fed and swallowing nonsense which blames former Irish Republican comrades of yours in Antrim Town.

You place Crumlin as your address. Would you ever accept from any source that you or members of your cumman are responsible for the murder of Bernadette Martin or Ciaran Heffron
http://republican-news.org/archive/1998/April30/30murd.html

I doubt it and it is outrageous and wrong. It is all the more sad that you can because it suits you blame Republican firends in Antrim Town.

Fianlly, Tony Check out which if any SF councillor sat on the Antrim Safety Committee 2002 - 2004. This is the same committee that is determined to place cameras only in Catholic schools in the town and estates. Ask your new SF councillors where they stand on this issue.

Man held after drugs seized
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3086963.stm

BBC TV 4th August 2004

Drugs worth £500,000 have been seized in Antrim.






http://lark.phoblacht.net/antebellumantrim.html

http://lark.phoblacht.net/rathenrawam.html

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=69783&condense_comments=false#comment107670

by Tony Sun May 15, 2005 13:40

What a load a crap re Antrim. There is now 3 councillors in Antrim Town when there used to be 2.

Getting rid of the so called true republicans (The Independent Republican Candidates was the major winning Sinn Fein factor). Removing the sitting councillors our 2 Martins was tactical and it worked.

What threats? Bullshit. Ogliagh Na h'Eireann denied these threats and condemned those making such anti republican allegations.

It was clear this was part of Aine Gribbon's future electioneering for her crap performance in the Antrim Town ward where Former IRA POW Gerard magee received more than 600 votes. Out polling any previous attempt by Aine Gribbon as a Sinn Fein candidate. My advice to her and her anti republican cronies is get a life.

No Councillor in Antrim ever sat on any committee with the Police - what a sad piece of propaganda and as for undermining people in the press- The councillors were continupously bombarded with ghost stories which left them red faced much too often in the press and council rooms.

The new Antrim Cumman is strong, dedicated and filled with committed irish Republicans. New Councillor Gubba is a lifelong member and he will articulate a true republican position. Ann Marie Logue a fluent gaelic speaker and life long republican will bring a new edge plus she has broke the male domination on the council also.

The old cummann never held this quality. Where were your gaelic speakers, former prisoners? No back bone just fagans who caused conflict and the conditions that lead to the death of Ciaran Cummings. What a vision!

Good riddence to the Independent Irish republicans - now AntrimTown can be really represented.

by Barry Sun May 15, 2005 13:21

"Barry did you ever carry any guns ?"
Houl on there P O Neill, at least sign up to the PSNI first before you start asking those types of questions .

Hold on....is P O'Neill actually Billy Leonard ??

Thats the type of question only a peeler would ask . They never change their spots .

by Roisin Sun May 15, 2005 12:55 Cookstown

Where does Roberty McCartney and his family fit into your equitable society P O Neil?

by Ciaran Sun May 15, 2005 12:48 Antrim

In replay to what happened in Antrim.

Well first of all - New Sinn Fein removed 2 major obstacles to freedom of expression and in doing so removed 2 massive personal agendas.

Incidently this step was at the heart of the Republican dispute for 3 years. One councillor in Antrim was sitting on committees with the Police for more than 2 years continually asserting it was sanctioned by leadership.

Leadership was ok about it as long as it remained quiet. It didn't. True Irish Republicans forced this councillor of the committee. However, all this silence was reinforced by the silence of another councillor who is also regarded as an Irish republican legend.

Undermining local people in the press was another favourite tactic employed by incompetent councillors in Antrim. This ought to be removed now also. So in essence New Sinn Fein's success and true republcians defeat has been brought about by New Sinn Fein doing the right thing 1 year or so later.

I hope it also removes the death threats from the senior members of Sinn Fein and their gangs not from Antrim Town.

by P O'Neill Sun May 15, 2005 04:33

"During my generations armed struggle the only gun Leonard carried was for the RUC"

Barry did you carry any guns during your generations armed struggle?

You also continually attack Billy Leonard, I neither know the man or have much knowledge about him, however a quick pointer. As republicans we believe in the reunification of Ireland as the way forward to acieving a just and equitable society. We also recognise the need to convince people of our arguments. The way you are going on about Billy Leonard is akin to saying that you can never change your mind, that you can never be convinced of others arguments. Do you honestly consider yourself a republican if this is the what you believe?

by Barry Sun May 15, 2005 04:19

Theres no comparison between the principled Irishmen youve just listed and a stinking cynical opportunist like Billy Leonard . Absolutely NONE of them were former orangemen for a start .

Those men risked everything in the cause of freedom and paid a heavy price .
Many took part in a war for freedom, leading from the front . All sought to break the connection with England .

During my generations armed struggle the only gun Leonard carried was for the RUC . After that he made a career with the SDLP who encouraged people to inform on republicans to the RUC .
Now hes seen fit to join a Sinn Fein which has accepted British rule and disposed of its weapons and is on the verge of joining the same RUC he soldiered with during the 70s. No doubt hell be back calling on people to inform on their republican neighbours before too long and therell be plenty in Sinn Fein wholl gladly do it .

Leonards only a tramp whose religion is of no importance to any republican . But hes in good company and hasnt actually made any huge ideological shift after a lifetime of collaboration . Sinn fein accept British rule today and he always has .

As for Antrim its obvious the 2 women were roundly trounced . But at least they were brave enough to go forward with their republican beliefs . At least they have them in the first place , which is more than I can say for yourself who hasnt debated any issues , just sneered .

Do you have any beliefs of your own or do you just believe what the bearded one tells you ?

by realist Sun May 15, 2005 02:06

Barry, I would have thought that you would have welcomed Billy Leonard, ex-orangeman. Shades of Wolfe Tone and the United Irishmen, Protestant, Catholic and dissenter. Or Robert Emmett, James Stephens, Ronnie Bunting, Sam maguire and thousands of other Protestant republicans.

Or if Wolfe Tone came back now would he just be dismissed by Independent Republicans as an "ex-orangeman" and a Snout bastard?

And what happened in Antrim?

by Cunningham voter South Down Sat May 14, 2005 17:01 Longstone Road

Here are some links that plot out provisional Sinn Fein's parting from Republican Socialism and what they might describe as Martin Cunningham's "downfall"

Call for a Republican Congress & Socialist Democracy reply
The following letter was published in the Irish News

No More Lies

1st June 2004

Throughout the month of May, a group of republicans met in Belfast. The purpose of the meetings was to facilitate all republican ideas, defend the right of people to pursue them free from fear and ensure that the freedom to think is safeguarded. The republicans surveyed the options available to those intent on promoting republicanism. As a result the following points were agreed.


Newry Council voted 19-4 in favour of writing to the Police Ombudsman after a number of allegations were made by Sinn Fein Councillor Martin Cunningham last Monday.

http://archives.tcm.ie/downdemocrat/2003/12/09/story1418.asp




IRISH FREEDOM COMMITTEE® NEWSLIST
www.irishfreedomcommittee.net
-----------------------------
Subject: Republican Statement: "No More Lies"
Date: May 31, 2004

In a strongly worded statement released to the press today, a group of Irish republicans blasted the “tyranny in our midst”, and condemned the atmosphere of terror and censorship waged on republicans by former comrades now intent on enforcing a British Treaty in Ireland.

The statement, signed by 21 veteran Irish republicans from Belfast, Derry, Down, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Monaghan and Dublin, denounced the current Stormont Treaty leadership as “shameful and contrary to the principles of Republicanism”.

The document called for an end to the code of silence enforced by the Treaty leadership, and the pervading threat of being “disappeared” for continuing to express republican beliefs.

The statement re-affirmed “the honor and integrity of the cause which sustained our beliefs”. It further stated that republicanism “… does not belong to a clique – it is owned by all the people who believe and participate in it” and that the “true spirit of republicanism is not a cult of personality. “

The statement is printed in the Letters section of today’s Irish News, and is reprinted in full below the following a story from the same paper.


IL SINN FÉIN PROVISIONAL, ACCUSATO PER L’INTIMIDAZIONE DI SUOI EX MEMBRI NELLA CITTADINA DI ANTRIM, SMENTISCE.

http://www.irlandanews.org/ultime_notizie_ottobre_2004.htm

by Bootsy Sat May 14, 2005 15:55

Didn't A prominent Provisional Sinn Fein man "lose" his nomination in North Antrim because he called RIRA members - Republicans???

I am not 100% on the details but a woman from Belfast was parachuted in and she took the council seat after the local Provisional Sinn Fein man was reprimanded for going to a court hearing involving alleged RIRA?

Cinningham's stand in South Down and the smear he is still enduring is not unlike what happened to countless other former Provisional Sinn Fein members throughout the North.

Republican People in North Antrim, South Antrim, Belfast, South Down, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Derry, etc. have experienced the same crap. I am certain this is a Provisonal Sinn Fein pattern.

Can anyone put me straight on this??

by Sean Sat May 14, 2005 11:27 Derry

To the British sponsored $inn £ein all I have to say to you.
Take it down from the mast Irish traitors.

by Michael Sat May 14, 2005 11:20 Newry

South Down Chuck says Martin Cunningham was under investigation for rigging an election. What a load of $inn £ein crap. Is that the best you could come up with?
Martin Cunningham spoke out in defence of republicans who had been framed by the forces of the crown in the council chamber, on TV., radio and at every opportunity.
$inn £ein does not want to know about these people because they were once their own There will come a time when $inn £ein will have to do their paymasters will and imprison these Irish Rebels.
When Martin Cunningham called you The Stormount Defence Force he wasn't far wrong

by Kevin Sat May 14, 2005 10:56 Forkhill

It gave me heart to see Independent Republicans standing in the local elections and making a stand for republicanism. Taking the courage to stand was in itself a victory in facing down the thugs who have criminalised the rebuplican struggle.
Keep the spirit of Irish freedom alive. You have more support in South Armagh than you think. We are the oppressed people only now we are being oppressed by the criminals who sold us out but we will not always be under your jackboot.

by Barry Sat May 14, 2005 01:23

Quality rather than quantity .

And not only have they highlighted the issues they set out to do $inn £eins negative campaign against them showed themselves up amongst republicans as being unable to debate the issues.

The negative tactics used by $inn £ein also explains the reluctance of many republicans to stand against them . For example in both West Belfast and SArmagh there are many republicans who oppose the GFA and acceptance of British rule, yet there were absolutely no candidates to represent them . This is not only as a result of fear for ones own safety but for the ordeal your family would have to go through in the midst of nasty, negative smears insults and worse.

However , the strong showing at the last minute by some candidates highlights the fact that there is a radical republican constituency out there that $inn £ein CANT represent because of their acceptance of British rule and Stormont . Once this constituency pulls itself together and works for it there will be more radical progressive voices out there, and these voices will be heard .

by Former Republican POW Fri May 13, 2005 18:07

Credit where credit is due to all the independent republicans for their first non co-ordinated attempt in the council elections. When are you uniting to fight it right?

I have been highly impressed also by how quickly and readily your supporters rallied on this board to defend the various candidates and most especially Martin Cunningham who seems to be the chief target of a vindictive onslaught.

Fair Play to you all - you might be a small bunch but you are loyal.

by Aine Fri May 13, 2005 12:10 South Down Ex S.F. supporter

The big problem for the Chuckies is not just the size of Martin Cunninghams vote but the calibre of the voters that he managed to take with him. Long time republicans and people who are respected in the community and are capable of independent thought. Sinn Fein can only lie to the public for so long they have to now produce the evidence that they have achieved something for their sell out.
To date they haven't achieved anything for all their decommissioning What makes them think the DUP and the Brits are going to concede to anything when they have nothihg left to sell? The DUP and indeed the Unionists were never going to share power with Shinn Fein, they couldn't even share power with the SDLP. Tony Blair will side with the Unionists as he has always done after all he made no bones about being a Unionist and where his loyalties lie and talking won't any perssure on Blair.

by Ciara Fri May 13, 2005 11:30 Rostrevor

Depends which side you are on to claim to claim a victory. If I were Tony Blair I would feel very victorious having defeated the IRA,the vast majority of their arsenel decommissioned, their most effective volunteers decommissioned. $inn £ein agreeing to the abolition of Articles 2&3 and their eagerness to get into Stormount to participate in administering British rule. Not to mention their eagerness to get on to the Police Partnership Boards. Oh i nearly forgot their williingness to suppress and oppress dissenting republican voices. I wonder what defeat would feel like?

by Spud Fri May 13, 2005 10:57 Hilltown, Co Down

Well said and how sincere - I hope there are plenty of irish republicans like you. I am sorry you are feeling intimidated by South Down Chuck and Jarlaith's posting. And I offer an apology on behalf of the many good Irish Republican folk from all parties and none in South Down.


I have not witnessed a more vicious, vile and nasty verbal onslaught by so called irish republicans against other Irish Republicans in such a long long time. Certainly not in South Down.

You would think if these "victorious" republicans would have much better things to do and with their attitude of a higher world view that they would be more concerned with spreading their good news among the masses. I think not.

South Down Chuck seems to have gone away and his / her vile and nasty personal resentmentful attacks against Martin Cunningham has parted also for a while. Good. Now we can all have a debate free from fear now that the poison has left.

It must be remembered also that this is a one off. Vile South Down Chuck is not representative of our area. There are many well lots of brilliant, generous and caring south down chucks - PSF RSF 32 CSM IRSP etc, including Martin Cunningham who would be disgusted if they knew someone in South Down was sullying Republicanism in the bullying and intimidating manner applied by the so called South Down Chuck.

So once again please know not all Sinn Fein members, electioneering workers etc are like South Down Chuck.

by Barry Fri May 13, 2005 09:57

shows us all is well within Sinn Fein, the party that never engages in smears or black propaganda .

" the war is over and we won"

Well if this statement was made by say, Billy Leonard , ex orangeman , RUC man ex SDLP and now a $inn £ein convert Id say " yes Billy , it looks like you did win . And to thank Adams for giving you and your British mates such a comprehensive victory , you joined his party ."

British counter insurgency objectives in Ireland since the mid 70s were coined as Ulsterisation , Normalisation , Criminalisation of prisoners while making some form of British rule acceptable to the nationalists .

British rule and the sectarian unionist veto have been accepted by Sinn Fein . Stormont is back (with Paisley as top dog) , the PSNI portray themselves as a normal police force ( as opposed to a colonial one) while republican prisoners are criminalised in Maghaberry . Aye , we won hands down there Dessie and no mistake .

And there was me thinking we got soundly trounced and shafted after 30 years of sacrifice .

Dessies comments arent the first time Ive heard shinners make the claim "we won the war" despite it being glaringly obvious we lost , BIG TIME. Or to be more precise we were utterly betrayed by a treacherous , self serving leadership .

I am convinced now that Adams has been employing the services of Obi Wan Kenobi in order to wave his hand in front of peoples faces and say "we won" in some sort of jedi mind trick . What other explanation can there be for people stating something which even a casual passing space alien can see is patently not the case .

Except for , just maybe , $inn £ein are lying bastards ?

by sinn fein change yer name Fri May 13, 2005 04:23

the war is over and we have won? what has the pira won? they ended their war and surrendered weapons in exchange for british paychecks and votes for seats in stormont and london at a time when there are more british troops in ireland than there is in iraq. is that what all the suffering and deaths were for? if it was, why did they fight their war at all when all they had to do was join the sdlp 30 years ago?

by Dessie Fri May 13, 2005 02:46

Well they were more than willing to strike a deal with Sinn Fein in derry if they are ruffling feathers.

Election workers for Independent 32 CSM man tried to barter a pact for Sinn Fein council votes in exchange for encouraging their vote base to vote for Mitchell.

They are all full of crap. Sinn Fein won full stop not only in derry but all over the 6 counties. keep at them in South Down lads - They deserve all they get. keep them out of our councils. They are a small band of wanabees.

tell them the war is over and We WON = the votes don;t lie,

by Big Seamy Fri May 13, 2005 02:19 Tyrone

Good thread here keep it lit The Independent irish republicans have ruffled more than a few feathers - maith thu!

by None given afraid Fri May 13, 2005 01:37 none no

This post was about A provisional Sinn Fein supporter's belief that

"rubbing salt into the wounds is standard electoral practice,"

salt into wounds of other Irish Republicans.

Then an e-mail was sent to a chuck in South down who doesn't use the indy media board but he wanted to vent / express his repulsion about 1 specific Irish republican candidate, Martin Cunningham.

The board was then narrowed by a few South Down chucks into a hate and smear personal vendetta against Cunningham.

A former comrade Who south down PSF election workers accused of being a liar, careerist, an anti republican, a tout, a betrayer, A DUP vote grabber, a man who cheated to get a nomination as a PSF MLA and turned dissident only when he was caught out and placed under SF investigation and much of these claims were either challenged or conveyed on the doorsteps says an electioneering South Down chuck .


Others have defended Cunningham and the other Irish Reublican candidates. South Down Chuck and Jarleth you have made your point - you want to rub salt into the wounds as you say and South Down Chuck wants to hammer a former comrade you have done that. Do you want to resolve the issue or obliterate Cunningham to death. Which is it?


A Real South Down Republican has extended the hand of friendship and the offer to private or public debate, discussion whatever. Do you want this or do you want to obliterate this person also? Which is it?

To be honest I find your "triumphialism" very sad. It is shameful as a matter of fact. I wouldn't vote for either of you under any circumstances as you appear negative, destructive, hateful, immature and highly resentful for people who are supposed to be celebrating a great political victory.

If Martin Cunningham is your sole target on this board then he and his family ought to be concerned.

Perhaps, and i hope i am over reacting here but I find the posts directed against Martin Cunningham as scary. Is it possible for Irish Republicans to celebrate a victory over another irish republican with such hate and menace?

What if and I am glad I can hide my identity here from the South Down chuck posters just as they are hiding their identity also, when I place this question before you all - What if and only if. Martin Cunningham's version of events in South Down is revealed further down the line as true and correct. Will you South Down Chuck posters be as angry and hateful towards the PIRA PSF leadership? I hope not because there would be a feud.

Who or what is the 3 phones - 50 face all about as well is this some code of significance I don't get this one - Is this internal? was this person thrown out of PSF before? Has 3 phones 50 face caused division previously? Whatever is going on here sort it out but don't hurt anyone Please. If three phones is back and division has returned wise heads in the Rep Movement will tipple to him/her. Don't atagonise the situation or someone will be made a scapegoat to cover up for 3 phones'actions.

I wish you would wise up enjoy your victory and seek ways of bringing all the members of the Irish Republican family together. Some united Ireland with this kind of division in the hearts of some.

by Ciara Fri May 13, 2005 00:03 Rostrevor

If you are refering to Martin Cunningham getting DUP transfers thats a lie or else the local papers are not telling us the truth because they clearly show that it was SF candidates that got transfers from Unionists including the DUP. Martin Cunningham got 559 first preference votes and did not get any yransfers from the Unionists. Could you email me the name of the paper that reported he got transfers?Maybe the attack on Martin Cunningham is more to do with him out polling Mick Murphy's daughter who had the benefit and the huge resources of the party behind her not to mention the family name. Or maybe that was her downfall.

by Pat Johnston Fri May 13, 2005 00:03 belfast

Please correct me if I am wrong about Martin Cunningham but isn't he the same former P Sinn Fein Councillor who lost a career as a lecturer when he stuck to his Irish Republican principles in South Down?

I cannot see the point here - a councillor gets about 4500 pounds a year plus expenses who would want this wage in comparison with a lecturer's wages and the fringe benefits i.e pension etc. Some career shift South Down Chuck.


Or is it the MLA job you were referring to at 32,000 pounds a year?

Most socialist P SFer's fair play to them plough some of this back into the party coffer and again this is still not comparable with a lecturer's wages and the benefits.

Some P Sinn Fein MLA's supplement their dual MLA wages and councillor allowances plus expenses by driving DLA cars and claiming the expenses.


Other PSF councillors have bought land and applied for building permission for homes for the needy in their area. The PSF top brass migrate to holiday homes (some PSF members call them shacks) in Costa De la Provo in Gortahork.


Is this practice and the career you were referring to when speaking about Independent irish Republican, Martin Cunningham?

by John Thu May 12, 2005 23:40

You are aptly named South Down Chuck. but you sell yourself short. You are better known for being chucked out of the republican family and trying to join other rebublican groups but they would not have you. It was the reference to three phones from another contributer that caught my eye and it triggered my memory to the tout known as three phones I can understand why Three Phones should be so vitriolic towards the original Kilkeel Cumman for they are the ones who exposed him.
I wondered when he would surface again and it comes as know suprise that Martin Cunningham should become a target for him. Who is pulling Three Phones strings now? Smacks of collusion to vilify a republican.

by Laughing all the way to the bank Thu May 12, 2005 22:39

Jarlaith Kelly ...

'Adams bought a shack in Donegal twenty years ago and took two decades to do it up on a meagre allowance and the earnings of his books.'

Adams has made a lot of money over the past number of years from books etc. you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think all he has is the 25 grand a year suggested.

By the way does every SF worker receive that amount, because if they do SF would want to be turning over millions each year to fund their activities.

by jim Thu May 12, 2005 21:30

To understand some of the most idiotic and poisonous south down logic at any rate you would need 3 phones and fifty faces.

But what i find more difficult to understand is why this discussion about 8 + Independent Republican candidates has bottle necked into a smear campaign against two people, Gary Donnelly,Derry and Martin Cunningham, South Down. Who between them polled more than 1000 votes.

Donnelly is lambasted because he received votes from the DUP - I say well done. This is what Irish Republicanism is all about. Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter being united as irish Republicans.

Cunningham on the other hand seems to be lambasted for getting no transfers from the DUP - you can't win with some people.

I am delighted to say that Provisional Sinn Fein most definitely in South Down received tranfer votes from all Unionists including the DUP. Who can say where the 1st preference votes came from except they were Republican votes from all sections of the community.

Let's get back to widening this discussion .The Antrim Women received 100 votes I am informed and John Nixon was eliminated at a final stage with the seat going to the SDLP and Bertie Shaw received 205 votes .

by in america Thu May 12, 2005 21:29

there is a point that someone made about sinn fein that i agree with, i moved to the states in the 80's and have been a supporter of sinn fein and the repbublican movement in america ever since. sinn fein did at one point raise most of their american funds from working class blue collar people for years but this changed after gerry adams was allowed a visa. since that first time and for the times afterwards, sinn fein has been collecting massive support from the well off with expensive dinner parties etc. it was almost baffling to see an alternative political party from home over here partying with the rich, the politicians, and even hollywood stars for big alot of dollars. and i can tell you that alot of the working class support that was here has been drifting away big time. sinn fein hanging out with the elite and the powers that be here, turned alot of people from the left, from alternative points of politics, and working class people who are fed up with watching parties grow into a well-oiled money and financed machine. sinn fein has changed my man, for good or for bad, but they are viewed very differently over here. and that says something if you think about for all the years the large amount of money and gear that came form america that was sent back home.

by Chris Thu May 12, 2005 19:21 Dungiven

Are south down Chuck and jarleth part of the South Down / Armagh Irish Republican party that branded, smeared, denegrated and harassed Martin Cunningham when Cunningham referred to those members of the PIRA responsible for the brutal attack, filleting and murder of a Sinn Fein supporter in Belfast. as criminals????


If so - didn't Gerry A, and gerry K say and do more???? Why was Gerry not smeared, harassed, branded a tout and a traitor???


Strange logic in South Down don't you agree.Cunningham says exactly the same as PSF's president and Cunningham is a tout. Gerry says same not a tout. What gives in South Down anyway????

A South Armagh writer elaborates on this peculiar South Down logic at link below.

http://lark.phoblacht.net/kc2404051g.html

by Sean2002 Thu May 12, 2005 18:07

It would be a mistake to assume any homogeneity in the Indymedia.ie audience. Similarly it would be a mistake to assume that we're not smart enough to see when someone is arguing unfairly and distorting the issues. It's a tough audience and there are lots of people with axes to grind, but it's worth it in the end.

by Dearbhla Thu May 12, 2005 17:34

I am prepared at any time to stand corrected in relation to my belief that your implicit condemnation of all Independent irish republicans (which you label Dissidents) should be regarded as condemnation reserved for and only against Martin Cunningham alone.

Rightly or wrongly, I base my belief on your posting and what i also regard as a dismissive and absolute tone. When you said,

" if the other stories are as accurate as the one about Cunningham, they're not worth listening to."

If I am interpretting your posts correctly I should understand that you are open to all Irish Republicans (except Martin Cunningham). Who by your definition is not an Irish Republican. The rest might be or could be but if you hear bad things from other Provisional Sinn Fein members about these candidates - you will adopt an attitude of contempt without investigation???

Please help me understand South Down Chuck. I want to cherish all the children of our United Democratic Socialist Irish Republic as equals and I unlike you include Martin Cunningham in this vision.


Once again I send my best wishes to all Irish Republican political candidates and my best wishes to all in the Irish Republican family.

by Real South Down Republican Thu May 12, 2005 16:39

South Down Chuck, we in the South Down 32 County Sovereignty Movement are quite serious about debating the future direction of republicanism and the issues surrounding the GFA and its denial of Ireland's right to Sovereignty and National Self Determination. As a movement our National Executive has consistently called on the leadership of PSF to debate these and other issues but as yet have recieved nothing more than the usual mantra of "Micro Organisation, no support, no strategy" etc as a reason for not debating.We are quite sure that the vast majority of PSF members are committed to the ideals of republicanism but we feel that the party's current direction runs contrary to these ideals and cannot deliver. If PSF will not debate serious issues on a national level we hope we can debate them at a local level, in South Down we are more than willing to hold public or private debates if the intention is progression.

by South Down Chuck Thu May 12, 2005 16:22

When I was emailed the link to this site by a friend and said I was going to post the other side of the story I was told not to bother, that rational and serious debate on Indymedia just doesn't happen and people insist on misrepresenting you.

If nothing else, Dearbhla's post confirms this.

I have not condemned or insulted Independent republican candidates. I have no problem with them running anymore than I have with anyone else running.

I have no problem identifying as republicans people outside Sinn Féin, in RSF, in the 32 Cos Sov Committee, the IRSP and so on. I don't claim to have a monopoly on republicanism and neither does Sinn Féin.

My comments were specifically about one candidate, Martin Cunningham, and not on the others, whom I don't know and in the case of the Antrim women had never heard of. I won't commend Martin Cunningham because I know his decision to stand was based not on republican principles, but on careerism and a desire to block Sinn Féin.

I only posted because an inaccurate representation was given of Martin Cunningham's actions and I believed it should be corrected. For all I know the other Independent candidates could be the greatest republicans who ever lived, I don't know them and I can't comment. Fair play to them on the votes they got and I hope more and more republicans contribute to Irish republicanism, whatever party they're in.

I can criticise Sinn Féin and would happily engage in a genuine debate with people over Sinn Féin and its political position and tactics on the Peace Process but to be honest, I don't think people here are as interested in a real debate as they are in bashing Sinn Féin.

by Dearbhla Thu May 12, 2005 14:18

In response to
"Lastly, Dearbhla, please start overturning stones. You won’t like what you find underneath."

My simple answer to South Down Chuck is No! I have seen underneath at Belfast Mothership level and I don't like what i see.


Let me ask you to agree to disagree about what is under the trail of stones. from Belfast to Castlewellan. I would rather the stones were used as hard core foundation rock to build republicanism in South Down and all over Ireland.


As an Irish republican I ask you to commend Martin Cunningham, gary Donnelly, John Nixon and the other Independent Irish Republicans for polling so well.

As a Provisional sinn fein supporter I thought you would be more concerned with the reasons why but instead you have opted to insult the Independent Irish republican candidates and their voters along the lines of them being stupid for believing the various smear campaigns by the candidates against provisional Sinn Fein . Where has the richest Irish republican quality of self criticism gone???


South Down chuck can you find it within yourself to also acknowledge that not only are these candidates and their voters genuine Irish Republicans but many of them former party comrades, former volunteers, current volunteers, former POW's, some current POW's all who adhere to and articulate core Irish Republican objectives - The establishment of a 32 county Democratic socialist Republic.

I commend all Irish Republicans candidates for taking a stand and I applaud Provisional Sinn Fein's election sucess - well done to all.

by lala Thu May 12, 2005 12:49

"That will not be done by micro-argumentation, esoteric in-fighting, abstruse and uncomradely waffle.."

And your point in starting this thread, if not all of the above? Surely you were not being comradely, and merely posting a threat offering congratulations to republicans who, although you may disagree with, had the courage to stand in election and test out their arguments at the ballot box and did not do so badly when all is factored in? No? You were just being a twat then? Ok.

by Jarlaith Kelly Thu May 12, 2005 11:41

"check out the offical house of commons website for info how much sinn fein is paid by the british government to help run the government that they once tried to destroy...........how is sinn fein still a republican party accepting money from the crown?"
Hmm, and how was Roger Casement a republican accepting money from the Crown, or Bobby Sands on the dole. Traitors, I say. Onlu good Oirish money, or er, European money is goo enough for me. Gaelic capital for a Gaelic people.
Where is your bloody Marxism? Take money, from whatever souce, I say, and subvert it. There's no such thing as good money; as Che Guevara succinctly put it, "I hate money, it's a fucking fetish".

"and when they visit america, who is it that they party with, take photos with, and sip champagne with? the working class industrial wage earners."

Actuellement, monsieur, most of SF's yankee donations - and this is well documented - comes from blue collar workers. Despite popular perceptions, there arent' that many millionaire philanthropists out there.

To the other commentators, I would reply that the only way to achieve a united Ireland is by building the cause of republicanism and propaganting its libertarian philosphy. That will not be done by micro-argumentation, esoteric in-fighting, abstruse and uncomradely waffle, but by getting out there and arguing. I commend those who make lucid arguments on this site (even the one's I disagree with), but think it cowardly and ignoble of some to spew forth unfounded allegations. That's the job of the Brit tabloids.

by South Down Chuck Thu May 12, 2005 11:31

To answer some of the questions put to my post. I am only responding to this debate because I got an email from a friend of mine who uses Indymedia about the post about Martin Cunningham. I don't use Indymedia and to be honest didn't really know what it was about until I logged on.

Martin Cunningham's version of events has been challenged a number of times, perhaps these challenges are not covered in Dissident papers. I certainly challenged it on the doorsteps. And I've read the interview with The Blanket and read it when it came out.

I also did not belittle his electoral performance, he polled fairly well, despite his smear campaign against Sinn Féin. But Martin Connolly outpolled him by a few hundred votes, which taking into account the difficulties that existed and Cunningham’s lies and misrepresentations over why he left, is no small feat.

As for the notion that Martin Cunningham single-handedly turned the party around, it’s simply nonsense. No-one, from Adams down to cumann member, is single-handedly responsible for our gains but work as part of a party. I’ll happily acknowledge that Cunningham played a role in building the party in the area, he was the candidate and then a councillor, it would be odd if he did not.

As for Liam’s point, I was also at the Convention where Martin Cunningham was elected. It was fairly clear who Martin Cunningham’s supporters were. As for objecting I was present at a conversation between one of Murphy’s supporters and the Comhairle Ceantar Chair where named individuals were objected to as being either not members of the party or being delegates from cumainn that had not paid affiliation fees. An objection was lodged with the Chair, who was a supporter of Cunningham, and was rejected.

The entire cumann did not leave with him, a small portion of it did and what was left, betrayed by a councillor who thought he was bigger than the party and took his seat from the party stayed and rebuilt and took the seat back. No-one in the cumann has been sent in from South Armagh, they’re Kilkeel republicans and have been for decades in some cases.

Cunningham was told he might be investigated because of allegations made against him, not by the leadership and I did not say they made them, that he had rigged the Comhairle Ceantar election.

As for not being an exponent of the GFA or arms being put beyond use, it must have been a different Martin Cunningham who supported both in meetings I was present at and who ran and got elected on a party platform of the same.

Martin Cunningham is an Independent because he did not get the Assembly nomination. No more, no less. If he had got the nomination and been elected an MLA many of you would be slating him on this site for being a Sinn Féin elected representative, instead of supporting a man the SDLP wanted to stop us getting our seat back.

Lastly, Dearbhla, please start overturning stones. You won’t like what you find underneath.

by Liam Thu May 12, 2005 09:35

thank you for your article regarding Martin Cunningham. It has at last made me open my eyes and see the light and leave Sinn Fein. I was at the Convention when Martin Cunningham was selected by a secret ballot. How could South Down Chuck possibly know who voted for Martin Cunningham? If the Cuck thought there were any members present on the night of the ballot who were not members of Sinn Fein(and there wasn't) why did Chuck not object then? As for his local Cumman not supporting him far from it. The entire Cumman left with him and indeed are still with him. The present Cumman in Kilkeel were a puppets put in place by South Armagh. Martin Cunningham was never acused by the Leadership of attempting to rig the election but was dumped for highlighting in the council chamber the framing of republicans by the British Army and the P.S.N.I. and naming the informer and British agent who set them up.
Anyone who knows Martin Cunningham will know that he was never an exponent of the GDF and was totally opposed to any decomissioning.

by jarlath Thu May 12, 2005 02:03

''And knowing that his election would prevent an SF seat, DUP voters were happy enough to transfer to this so-called Dissident republican.''

-hilarious, what exactly have you been smoking tonite, DUP voters voting for dissident republicans/realira, thats like black people voting for the Ku Klux Klan!!!!!!!

by Barry Thu May 12, 2005 01:28

I think its very clear who the people inside the $inn £ein tent are pissing out on top off . The smears against Martin Cunningham are about as believable as the $inn £ein story about Stormont MLA John Kelly being suspended as a result of his poor health . John Kellys bout of ill health coincided with him turning up to support a white line picket for republican prisoners who were on dirty protest for political status in Maghaberry . I was standing a few yards away from him in Armagh city that day and he looked healthy enough to me.

As i pointed out in my piece the real point of the exercise ( for some anyway) wasnt to win seats although that would have been welcome . It was highlighting isues such as republican opposition to the GFA and criminalisation of prisoners . Simply by getting into the local media and arguing their case ( which is extremely difficult for anti gfa republicans) was itself a success .

None of these candidates had any party machine or funding behind them yet they didnt do too badly I believe . Gary Donnelly , a total newcomer to elections secured over 450 first preference votes in the cityside (bogside/creggan) which is traditionally a Sinn Fein heartland . I also pointed out that the decision by some of these candidates to stand was spontaneous and taken just before the actual election , no major preparations went into some campaigns and yet Gary did quite well considering that many who support him and even canvassed for him were unable to register in time for a vote because of his late decision to stand .

That over 450 republicans in this traditional Sinn Fein urban stronghold clearly reject the GFA cannot be simply dismissed especially when Gary has been aligned publicly in the press to 32csm . Those people knew exactly who they were voting for and where he stands on republican issues . I have no doubt at the next council elections there will be more republican candidates , better funded ,better prepared and with a solid republican base to draw from . As I said in my piece this is only the beginning .

Its also interesting to note that in my piece not a single Sinn Fein supporter engaged in any debate on the issues , and still actually havent . That speaks volumes I believe about the actual state of debate within republicanism . These candidates have succeeded in starting to open this debate up . Sinn Fein cant just smear people for ever and not debate the issues without people noticing .

by seedot Thu May 12, 2005 00:44

Since he stated the independent republicans would provide an 'interesting diversion.'

Since this is the only aspect of the Council elections you have chosen to comment on - surely you agree.

by Real South Down Republican Wed May 11, 2005 23:48

I find the rantings of PSF supporters or members regarding Independent Republicans as infantile and contend that they lack any real grasp of the signifigance of the good showing by at least two of the independent candidates. Martin Cunningham and Gary Donnelly both polled well despite smear campaigns in both areas and a lack of transfers from other candidates. As anyone from the South Down area knows, Martin Cunningham turned Sinn Feins fortunes in the Mournes around with an extremely high personal vote. It would appear that many of those who helped him become a Sinn Fein candidate remained loyal to him and gave him almost 600 first prefence votes. Despite the bluster of South Down chuck there is no doubt that Cunningham had the party worried and despite the 'party machine' and their 'advice' to their supporters in the area the SF candiate Martin Connolly only polled 30 odd% higher. If Cunningham has no support then Connolly has very little despite all the party did for him. In Derry City Gary Donnelly polled almost 500 votes in the cityside ward more than half of what the top polling SF candidate in the ward polled in terms of first preference votes, all this despite the fact that a lot of Donnelly's natural supporters in the area would not have been registered and bacause he is a member of the 32 County Sovereignty Movement it is unlikely if either SF or SDLP supporters would have given him any transfers. Both of these men polled credibly in areas increasingly coming under the control of 'party dictatorships' and top heavy leaderships. There is no doubt that both men have a support base in their areas and if both continue to work in politics they can grow in confidence and support and offer an alternative to the failed politics of PSF and the GFA.

by Dearbhla Wed May 11, 2005 23:10

I agree with the previous posting that all Independent Irish Republicans should be highly commended for their courage, conviction and integrity.

I am disappointed by the elite attitude depicted by our comrade supporting provisional Sinn Fein. I hope he will read the Proclamation soon and adhere to cherishing all the children of the nation - equally.

I have read Martin Cunningham's account at the links provided and i am not surprised he remains unchallenged but i am more surprised that the triumphialist Provisional Sinn Fein poster would want this account to surface.

I can fully concur with Martin Cunningham's account and add that the perceived Murphy dynasty was the initial target of the Belfast leadership. As few if any in South Down had the balls to speak out directly to the man. Instead this cowardice was being reported to the cuige by whispering comrades based in castlewellan.

There are more stones here that are better left unturned and i would suggest that martin Cunningham is being smeared as the scapegoat to cover up the top heavy leadership demands and plans.

Much of this smear towards Martin Cunningham co incided with the introduction to South Down of an organiser (Belfast man ) shuttled in with a remit from the Leadership in Belfast from the other side of the house - catch my drift?? , Martin Cunningham would not have known about these developments.
Did you comrade????

I wish you well in Your victory and i hope all irish republicans and all of the people will be well served by your preferred candidate.

by EX-SINN FEIN SUPPORTER Wed May 11, 2005 22:57

check out the offical house of commons website for info how much sinn fein is paid by the british government to help run the government that they once tried to destroy, sent people out to destroy, let people do time in jail for trying to destroy, let people die for trying to destroy...........how is sinn fein still a republican party accepting money from the crown?

and when they visit america, who is it that they party with, take photos with, and sip champagne with? the working class industrial wage earners???, i dont think so..... it is the rich, elite, powerful, and the people in the white house (well no shaking hands with GW BUSH this year, maybe next year please god).

sinn fein used to say "tiocfaidh ar la", then "brits out", and now with a british paycheck in their hands "an ireland of equals".

House of Commons
Sinn Fein Expenses

Figures in brackets are ranks. Parliament's explanatory notes.
Type 2003/04 (out of 658) 2002/03 (out of 657) 2001/02 (out of 657)
Additional Costs Allowance £18,268 (361st) £9,505 (589th) £0
London Supplement £0 £0 £0
Incidental Expenses Provision £18,798 (192nd) £15,171 (543rd) £4,304 (628th)
Staffing Allowance £64,263 (493rd) £49,070 (626th) £6,895 (654th)
Members' Travel £5,653 (495th) £1,808 (620th) £315 (640th)
Members' Staff Travel £0 £320 (325th) £208 (351st)
Centrally Purchased Stationery £79 (646th) £141 (641st) £125 (641st)
Stationery: Associated Postage Costs £475 (625th) N/A N/A
Centrally Provided Computer Equipment £1,779 (466th) £1,779 (445th) £0
Other Costs £0 £0 £0
Total £109,315 (518th) £77,794 (650th) £11,847 (657th)

why is there so much pro-sinn fein stuff here, sinn fein is no longer a radical alternative, but rather after re-inventing themselves to be everything that they used to not be....they switched teams and joined the system and accepted money from the british for doing so.

sinn fein has their own webshite to glorify themselves with, but then again a person has to pay money to subscribe to that webshite. typical, no? then again i am just a working class industrial wage earner with a crap suit and no lovely summer cottage to relax in. maybe i should have stuck with it after all i hear sinn fein are quite handy now with giving out well paying jobs and maybe even some good police jobs soon. seems odd that a party that tried destroying a system, fighting occupation, and following the republican traditions...now seem to enjoy their british checks and their bribes in jobs to keep the boys quiet since they no longer fight an illegal, occupying, and foreign army. i wont even get into how sinn fein agreed to criminalize the current republican prisoners in jail for fighting an occupying foreign army, maybe on day coming soon....sinn fein will be the ones aressting republicans who fight the british. and i remember when they called the sdlp the stoop down low party, now they seemed to have basically adopted most of their political viewpoints. well done gerry!

by sad Wed May 11, 2005 22:38

These provo wannabe's which to run for British elections they should drop the Word Republican as they are just looking their share of the money and are a disgrace

by Sean G Wed May 11, 2005 22:25

The fact that it was felt necessary by republicans to stand in these elections demonstrates that there is a section of the community that feels there republican views can longer be represented by the provisional movement.

I comment all those independent republicans who stood, and one wonders had they done well would this thread been started I think not

by Saoirse Ni Dhonaill Wed May 11, 2005 21:29

Martin Cunningham's account of what went on within South Down Provisional Sinn Fein is well documented for more than a year now and this post is the first time anyone has disputed Mr Cunningham's account.

The timing and the motivation of this poster is undoubtedly highly questionable.

Mr Cunningham's extensive and previously unchallenged 1 year old account can be read at links below and above.

Martin Cunningham received 559 1st preference votes from Independent Irish Republican voters living in the Mournes ward.


For Martin Cunningham's account entitled:

Sinn Fein A Dictatorship: Martin Cunningham Interviewed
Click links below.

http://lark.phoblacht.net/mcinterviewam.html

http://lark.phoblacht.net/mcinterviewam2.html

http://lark.phoblacht.net/mcinterviewam3.html

by Jarlaith Kelly Wed May 11, 2005 17:50

It's not often I stoop to the level of outright perjoratives, but this idiocy from Gerry and Tiocfaidh Armani (unrelated, I presume) here has to be described as the excretion of total and utter idiots.

It is pathetic that these political naives harangue republicans on the basis of spurious and unfounded claims. Adams bought a shack in Donegal twenty years ago and took two decades to do it up on a meagre allowance and the earnings of his books. Like all SF reps he earns the average industrial wage, donating the rest to the cause he believes him and for which he was shot six times, and since when is having a meagre fucking holiday home a crime? Armani suits? From what bowel of constipated bile this this effluent spatter forth? Adams, and it is fucking tacky to get drawn into this but nevertheless, Adams wears Dunnes Stores. Most SF reps live on fuck on and, unlike the previous posters may I presume, have resigned themselves to a life of frugality. Will both of you commit yourselves to a life on no more than the average industrial wage, working 14/16 hour days until your retirement for the beliefs (whatever they may be) that you hold? Would Eamon McCann do this?

As for the assumption that all socialist party candidates must have been harassed by SFactivists...God help your senses!!!

How many Swimmies/SPers commit their lives to socialism, braving imprisonment, harrassment, poverty, the vituperation of utter fools?
This is about politics, not characters, but the calibre and commitment of your activists, your dishonourable willingness to peddle every latest lie and stereotype, bespeaks volumes for your ideological trajectory as well as your class allegiance.

by tiocfaidh armani Wed May 11, 2005 16:02

i think sinn fein won a little more this time due to their shiny new expensive suits, i was awesome struck at their new found capitalism and shiny clean suits that maybe one day i can afford to buy as well, maybe one day when we are all equal. but i also heard a rumor that sinn fein was selling votes in exchange for a free campsite holiday in the many sinn fein leader's hoilday homes in donegal and i believe spain!!!! all of this on the day bobby sands died on hunger strike for ireland, wonder who he would have voted for? wonder if he would have accepted the paycheck from the british crown to enforce partition? and to join the police? and to call current republicans in jail, criminals?shame on you SIN FEIN

by GERRY ARMANI Wed May 11, 2005 15:53

maybe you should have also listed how well the socialist party did in the north, list how many votes they got and if they were elimanted............can you please do that for us to compare with independent people who stood up to represent their communities against parties with much more funding as well as enduring the sinn fein bully boy pressure they must have endured to some degree. and may i add that the post barry had here, was one of the best discussions that i have seen here for some time. i didnt agree with everything, but i did enjoy the discussion and the exchange of ideas.

by South Down Chuck Wed May 11, 2005 15:37

Independent Republican does not necessarily mean dissident. To me a Dissident is a republican who disagrees with and is opposed to the Peace Process.

And I've no objection to these people putting themselves forward. I only posted because I saw that bit about Martin Cunningham and I know it to be false.

by Chuckle Wed May 11, 2005 15:25

Interesting post but how come we didn't hear from the Chucks before the elections? Hedging your bets?
Since when does 'Independent Republican' mean 'Dissident'?
Anyone know what percentage vote these 'Dissidents' got?
South Down Chuck, if you really are a socialist isn’t it good to have Independents on your left to keep the party on it’s toes?

by South Down Chuck Wed May 11, 2005 14:29

"Sitting Newry and Mourne councillor Martin Cunningham recently parted company from Sinn Fein in a bitter dispute concerning republican prisoners." – Eliminated: Sinn Féin gains.

Perhaps there are two former SF councillors called Martin Cunningham who parted from Sinn Féin on Newry & Mourne Council but I do not think so.

Cunningham's departure had as much to do with republican prisoners as it did with tidal flows in the Rhine.

Martin Cunningham was elected as an SF councillor and put his name forward as a candidate for MLA.

The local Comhairle Ceantar met to elect the candidates and Martin was selected in the place of Mick Murphy by a margin of four votes. The result was appealed by the local organisation who pointed out that four of the cumainn present were not registered and that at least three of the people who backed Cunningham were not members of SF.

The appeal was upheld and Cunningham stood down as a candidate. He was also informed that the leadership was considering further action over allegations he had deliberately attempted to rig the selection process.

And so Martin Cunningham went Independent. His claim that he did so because Caitriona Ruane was being parachuted in to take his place is false, as her name was not even an issue at the time and the grassroots in South Down expected, and hoped, Mick Murphy would take the candidacy. But it fits into Cunningham's story that he was stood down in favour of a southern middle class woman with no Army background, than a man who spent two years in prison and devoted his entire life to the Republican Movement. The latter, while not fitting into his story, happens to be true.

And so Martin became, almost overnight, a 'Dissident'.

This is a man who was an enthusiastic backer of the GFA and who met with local activists in the South Down area to argue for support for putting weapons beyond use. Some Dissident!

And if you had any doubts about where his bread was buttered the local election count in Newry & Mourne would have been educational. Ostracised by the republicans he betrayed Cunningham spent the day whiling away the hours with the SDLP who hoped he would keep his seat and keep Sinn Féin out. And knowing that his election would prevent an SF seat, DUP voters were happy enough to transfer to this so-called Dissident republican.

But in the end, Sinn Féin retook its seat, in no small part because when Cunningham went independent, no-one went with him bar three or four close friends. The cumann in Kilkeel, his local cumann, went against him.

I don't know and therefore won't comment on the stories surrounding the other Dissident candidates you mention, but as someone from the South Down area and who was present at a number of the meetings that took place over the course of this debacle, if the other stories are as accurate as the one about Cunningham, they're not worth listening to.