Mary Kelly's; 'Irish Friends of Palestine' are at it again !

by too lazy for anarchy Mon Apr 25, 2005 01:07

I've faxed this off to vodafone who will be taking legal action soon.

by Tommy Donnellan - Irish Friends of Palestine Mon Apr 25, 2005 02:18

Looking forward to it !, "Too much of a pig to care for humanity". Looking forward to it !.

Budding "Terrorists" about to be terminated !

Zionism's handiwork !

by TheTroll Mon Apr 25, 2005 06:09

Who be that?

But of the other 3, 2 are not Zionists. They are alleged Christians who think they have a right to say who gets to live (literaly) in the Palestinian's homeland (etc).

How many English people believed they had such a right in Ireland??? Balfour. Besides being the Englishman who said zionists have a right to steal Palestinian lands, what do you know about him?

Is there some reason to believe that ANYONE but Palestinians have a right to say who gets to be a part of palestinian society? Bush blair sharron Aherne (?)? Cubans? Haitians? Nicaraguans? SOUTH AFRICAN whiteSS???

Yep, the real problem is convining white people that they have NO right to rule the world, much less decidng who gets to live (LIVE) in thier own homelands.

Look at Bush suggesting that because POLAND supports HIS war in Iraq that HIS war is legitimat. Well, didn't POLAND'S leadership also support the Soviet war against Afgahnistan???

Yep, white people's nozes in other people's asses. Shit, I could do that much.

by Curious Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:10

Is Tommy Donnellan Mary Kelly's PR person?

by Noel Mon Apr 25, 2005 13:38

'Budding terrorists about to be terminated'

Is that some anti-Israeli in joke?
Or do the Friends of Palestine believe their own lies?

by Nicolo Mon Apr 25, 2005 13:51

I see our friend noel from the embassy is back again,

use your head man, the comment refers satirically to what is happening in the picture and to deny these event is to deny the holocaust ever happened.

What is happening in palesinte today is an insult to all vistims of the holocaust

one holocaust does not justify another

by Noel Mon Apr 25, 2005 14:08

What half-arsed relativism can equate the situation in Palestine with the deliberate murder of 6 million Jews?

by jeff Mon Apr 25, 2005 14:56

Do you think that what is happening to innocent Palestinians ( land seizures, home demolitions, murder, attacks by settlers, water being cut off, etc) is a bad thing, or, is it, in the long run, a good thing?

Would you rather be an Israeliu soldier or a Palestinian? What would you do if you were the latter, born in a refugee camp?Would you sneer at your neighbours and lie back and start reading a copy of Fortune magazine?

by Nicolo Mon Apr 25, 2005 16:13

Reply to Noel

In relation to your question as tregards to what type of relativism equates what is happening in Palestine to the deliberate murder of 6 million Jews.

Well its like this the holocaust was genocide the deliberate attempt to destroy a people. What is happening in palestine is the same thing, its just a matter of scale. The Israeli giovernment and zionism are deliberately attemopting to clease the land of palestine from arab palestinians. (Note I say govt and zionism, this is not anything against jewsih people or religious)

Zionism is regarded internationally as an inherently rascist idelogy jusat as nazism was. The deliberate subjugation of a peopleis not acceptable

Look at the similarities.

(1) In the 1930's : Jews among other groups were firstly denied basic rights such as voting, travel etc. Today in Palestine: Palestinians are restricted in movement, those residing in E Jerusalem have no voting rights, they are under occupation.

(2) The second step in nazism was to force the Jews and others to live in gettos surrounded by high walls and cut off from the world with acees and exit to these areas controlled by the german military. Present day Palestine- a separation wall is being built, its 25 feet high concrete and is built on Palestinian land. Entry to the WBank and Gaza is controlled by the Israeli military, 1.25 million palestinians live in Gaza an area of 40 square kilometres. Whole towns like Qualkelia (sic) are surrounded by this wall.

(3) The third step in the final solution was deportation and extermination, let us ensure there is no final solution in Palestine.

There are the parallels deliberate slaughter of people is not acceptable whether it be 6 million Jews in the 1930/40'2 of Palestinians now.

Maybe Noel you are like current Likud politicans who have stated publicly that Palestinians and individuals like Vanunu do not have Human Rights because they are not human beings.

The world should have learned from the applaig suffering imposed of the Jews during WW2 and before and indeed since then but this give no right to anyone to defend what Israel is doing today.

Zionism is rascist, Israel is an occupying country subjugating a people.

by Mark P (formerly Mark H) - Socialist Party (personal cap) Mon Apr 25, 2005 16:30

You don't do the cause of the Palestinians even the smallest bit of good by throwing around comparisons with the Holocaust or the Nazis. These kind of approaches, combined with things like stickers depicting the Star of David and the Swastika with an equals sign between them (which I've actually seen on demonstrations), only damage the arguments of those of us who support the struggle of the Palestinian people.

Those kinds of crass comparisons give ammunition to those who want to suggest that criticism of Israel is the same thing as anti-semitism. What's more they give encouragement to actual anti-semites by making their language and ideas more acceptable to a wider group of people. In addition they predictably serve to alienate Jews who are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. I presume that these are not the effects you intend.

What the Israeli state is doing to the Palestinians is barbaric and appalling but it is not equal to the Holocaust or Nazism. You can oppose the actions of the Israeli state and the tenets of Zionist ideology without losing your sense of perspective.

by john Mon Apr 25, 2005 16:37

What half-arsed relativism can equate the situation in Palestine with the deliberate murder of 6 million Jews?

So then we have to wait untill the IDF has slaughtered 6 million Palestinians before we can make such a comparison???

Heres a quote that you might find useful

"If one human being is humiliated, all other human beings are humiliated. If one human being is shamed into suffering, that means that suffering has prevailed. If one human being is the victim of injustice, that means injustice triumphs not only over that human being but over all human beings."

Elie Wiesel
Holocaust Witness

by Nicolo Mon Apr 25, 2005 16:41

Mark,

I resent your attack on my comments, in my view as I said, genocide is genocide no matter what scale or perspective.

If nazism was rascist then so is zionism. It does no favour to palestinians to deny the similarities, Also ask palestinians living in these conditions what they think and they will tell you that zionsim is nazism. I recently returned from Palestine and believe me what I say was a nazi statee in operation. Individuals such as Mordechai Vanunu have described Israel and its policies as being nazi.

We should not be afraid to say these things because silence is complicity. Barbaric actions such as the holocaust against the Jews conducted by the nazis in my view is being replicated by Israel today against the Nazis. Many Israeli right wingers beleive is cleansing the land from the Jordan to the Mediterranean from arabs. Please if this is not ethnic cleansing, genocide and nazism then what is.

I work for human rights in Palestine but I am no anti-semite or shoudl I say anti-jew as Palestinians are also semites. I want Israelis and Palestinians to live peacefull but it must be on a basis of respect and fairness.

I agree with you in terms of desicrating national flags etc, its wrong and give the worng message however, you should read works by Lenni brenner, Norman Finkelstein or Noam Chomsky on this topic all agree that the Israeli state behave appallingly and all draw links with nazism. (All are also from Jewish backgrounds too)

Finally I hate have to continually refer to Jews and Jewish etc because for me religion has nothing to do with this, Israel in theory is a secular democracy. The Jewsih faith is a matter for each individual who practices that faithjust like all religions, it dosnt bother me what your religious views are but critisicm of Israel is not anti jewsih sentiment and equations with nazism is not meant to offend Jewish people but if the links are there we need to show them.

by Mark P Mon Apr 25, 2005 17:17

I'm sorry if you resent my remarks but as I think that casual comparisons with Nazism or the Holocaust serve to damage the Palestinian cause in this country I think that I have a responsibility to make them to you.

It is perfectly possible to criticise the racist and barbaric policies of the Israeli state without resorting to such comparisons and without the unintentional negative consequences I outlined above.

There are undoubtedly some anti-semitic strands in the pro-Palestinian movement. The mainstream of "our" side should do everything we can to distance ourselves from and oppose such attitudes. I don't think that unnecessary references to the Holocaust and Nazis help to achieve that.

by jeff Mon Apr 25, 2005 18:13

He has no answer for all these above points raised. What he'll do now is wait until he has another forum where he can say something glib. If this is his tack, and he is actually unable to appreciate or discuss points of view, then just ignore him-he'll go the same way as righteous pragmatist, et al. Of course, he'll be convinced he 'won' the 'debate', but of course the left cannot let him have 'free speech'.

etc, etc...

by Noel Tue Apr 26, 2005 08:15

Jeff, it's a little ironic that you bandy the term troll about on this thread. Just as the terms Nazi or Genocide or Holocaust are being devalued by their promiscuous use. Similarly, Troll appears to be the label of choice when faced with differing views.
I utterly reject any claim of genocide/holocaust/insert provocative description by Israel against Palestinians.
And I certainly don't expect to be swayed by 6th form arguments and junior infants abuse.

by Oisin Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:48

Noel,

If it is not genocide/holocaust what excatly is that the Israeli state is doing or seen to be doing to Palestinians. You find it so easy to 'utterly reject any claim' you must be aware of what is really going on. Can you enlighten us?

by Noel Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:17

Since it's establishment Israel has been surrounded by aggressive neighbours intent upon it's destruction. Similarly, Palestinian terrorists are bent upon driving the Jews into the sea. Israel must and will defend itself against these aggressors.
If that means killing terrorists or building walls - so be it.

Israel does not deliberately kill civilians.
As for genocide; The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group. Does even the most committed anti-semite within the anti-Israel movement believe that is happening?

by Oisin Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:33

War Criminals maybe, deliberate Genocide by the Israeli state i really can't believe that.
Noel stop throwing out the anti-semite tag it really doesn't show any understanding for the people who critsise the way Israel conducts it's war.

by Paul Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:53

The Isreali state was founded through terrorism.

It did defend itself from aggressive neighbours, ( British trained / armed forces : Arab legion ) however at the expense of its Palestinian citizens.

What are you opinions on Hamas being sponsored by Mossad in 1986-87 to defeat the secular resistance of the PLO ?

by Noel Tue Apr 26, 2005 13:13

Hamas was initiated in December 1987.
What Mossad-Zionist-Chimpy-Bush-Hitler conspiracy site were you referencing?

by john Tue Apr 26, 2005 15:25

I suggest you read 'Pity the Nation' if you want to know about IDF Genocide, human rights abuses all in the name of Defence.

I would disagree with the SP guy who says its a mistake to compare IDF genocide to nazi genocide. For example the justification of extending so called settlements should be looked in the context of nazi 'living space' expansionism.

Noel ignored the quote I cited probably because he considers the Palestinians to be outside of Humanity, an opinion common with his Kamraden in the IDF.

by Noel Tue Apr 26, 2005 15:44

'Whatever Israel has done is the only thing that Israel could have done'

John, I suggest you read a little more of Elie Wiesel. Try quoting him in context next time.

by john Tue Apr 26, 2005 16:12

Simply because if the quote is, as he says "out of context" he therefore implies the Palestinians are outside humanity!

by John Tue Apr 26, 2005 16:17

"If one human being is humiliated, all other human beings are humiliated except for Palestinians. If one human being is shamed into suffering, that means that suffering has prevailed, except in Israel. If one human being is the victim of injustice, that means injustice triumphs not only over that human being but over all human beings outside the Palestinians."

Evil Weasel - Holocaust apoligist

by Ali H. Tue Apr 26, 2005 20:22

You mean

Israel couldn't arrest its political opponents and had no option but to kill them?

Israel had no option but to demolish the homes thousands of Palestinians?

Israel had no option but to murder 10 Palestinians in Rafah using tank fire?

Israel had not option but to level the centre of Jenin?

etc. etc.

Sounds like the same line of reasoning employed by crackpot dictators and thugs the world over!

by jeff Wed Apr 27, 2005 19:28

"Israel does not deliberately kill civilians"

F16 fighter planes shooting missiles into civilian areas, Jenin, dead children, settlers getting only six month suspended sentences for beating Palestinian children to death via pistol whipping ( this case refers to October 2000, where a settler ran after some stone throwing ten year olds and caught one of them and so forth), pregnant mother bleeding to death at a roadblock.

The murder of UN aid worker Ian Hunt by Israeli sniper, Rachel Corrie, Channel Four's findings that IDF have a free reign in occupied territories.Plus the fact that we don't get to hear half of what goes on due to travel restrictions.

Noel, to ignore the above makes you the weasel.

Incidentally, in your efforts at one upmanship, you, like other trolls, have convieniently ignored the fact that land has consistently been confiscated by the IDF to build settlements.You do not do a good job at convincing anyone here as to the veracity of your rethoric.

So have you this time got an answer for either of the above points made?

by Noel Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:35

Jeff,
Obviously, with your prejudiced anti-Israel preconditioning all these grievances you've listed are open and shut cases. I'm not aware of all the cases, dead children for example is a little vague, and indeed using dead children to harangue Israel is an irony in itself. Let me tell it how I see it.

Palestinian terrorists choose to fire at Israeli civilians and IDF from within schools and hospitals. The consequence of this, (Hamas have called it a win-win) is civilian casualties.
Jenin. I trust you're not trying to flog the massacre line? Even Clown-In-Chief Robert Fisk has backtracked on that particular myth.
The true tragedy of Jenin is the Arab nations aided by the UN have used the refugees as a useful anti-Israeli political tool.
That settler you mentioned, the Palestinian stone thrower he chased had a congenital artery problem which the State Pathologist found probably caused his death.
Rachel Corrie. Dear oh dear. This particular fool came up against a bulldozer and came off second best. The driver was unsighted etc.

See Jeff, we all view stories from our own perspective. I could ask you about Palestinian atrocities and you would probably blame Israel for them.
I

by Joel Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:07

You are so full of shit Noel, from what book are you regurgitating this rubbish from. Calling Rachel Corrie a fool just shows your contempt for human life. It's a pity, i was over in Israel for the Ireland match it is a lovely place i can see why the Jews want it all for themselves.

by rob Thu Apr 28, 2005 13:50

All this nonsense about the IDF attempting to wipe out the Palestinians is pure nonsense.

The IDF are one of the worlds most effective and sophisticated militaries. If as has been claimed by the useful idiots on this site that they are conducting 'Genocide', then they are doing a pretty poor job.

The IDF uses ground troops in house to house operations, supported by tanks and bulldozers. This goes against every military textbook as its troops are vulnerable to ambush and sniper fire. Of course they could use the air force to do the job, and thus avoid any casualties on its part. But it doesn't. It puts its own troops in the line of fire as it is the only way to cut down on civilian deaths. The Palestinian terrorists as we know have no such fears. As well as targeting civilians in murder suicide bombings, they also use their own population as human shields.

Most normal armies play down the figures of their casualties. The Palestinians terrorists however inflate them (as was seen in Jenin)
this is yet another example of the culture of death and victim hood that blights the Palestinian society as well as Irish republicanism for that matter.

by MM Thu Apr 28, 2005 13:57

"i can see why the Jews want it all for themselves"

See: Oslo Accords

by Ali H. Thu Apr 28, 2005 14:35

Is that the Israelis have learnt nothing from it and continue to use infantry to support bulldozers which devastate entire neighbourhoods as was seen in Rafah.

As for exaggerating the number of Palestinian victims there's no need to. The fact that over 3 times as many Palestinians have been killed as Israelis is acknowledged even by the Israeli government.

Read the facts here from an Israeli source you numbskull:

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=439

by Noel Thu Apr 28, 2005 14:49

Many factors contribute to a higher death rate.
Israeli rescue services have become so efficient in responding to suicide bombings that it's becoming increasingly difficult to kill Israeli citizens. Hence the increase in civilian wounded as opposed to killed.
The accusation of exaggerated casualties is
valid in relation to Jenin.
Indeed figures for Palestinians killed by Israel have included terrorists accidentally blown up by their own explosives, so-called collaborators and even suicide bombers.

by Nicolo Thu Apr 28, 2005 15:45

Noel,

I agree with you in terms of name calling but I dont agree with you that you have won the argument.

and seizures still occur, check it out international human rights organisations have documented this, the land is seized to build the separation wall. Also its true that colonies are being evauated in Gaza but they are being extended in the West Bank. This is not withdrawal or anything like it.

As for your comments towards Rachel Corrie, I hope that you or your children never need the help of a poor fool like this brave girl. And yes the driver was soo unsighted that her reversed over her again!!!!!

The situation in Palestine and Israel is totally unacceptable and there is suffering on both sides but to suggest that Israel is acting in self defence etc is totally crap. Remember it was Israel who invaded the occupied territories in 1967, it was israel who murdered and slaughtered whole villages in 1948. Sending tanks and F16s against children is not brave or self defence.

As regards casualties , how do you explain 3 kids being shot while playing football. I cant understand how you cn even try and explain this

As I said before go back to the embassy

by Noel Thu Apr 28, 2005 15:56

Welcome back Nicolo.

Where do I start with your post?
Just a couple of things.
1967 - Israel struck against a massively superior force (I say superior in quantity only, of course) intent upon it's destruction.
Perhaps the true nature of Nasser's intent escapes you.

As for the footie players.
Arafat has admitted they were arms smugglers. How do you explain that?

by Nicolo Thu Apr 28, 2005 17:32

Hi Noel,

In relation to 1967 can you explain how the Palestinian people were a superior force?.

Secondly you obviously dont follow the news, Arafat died in November 2004 and the kids I am talking about were shot some weeks ago and they were kids in the mid teens, all reports including the IDF have stated they were playing footbal and according to the IDF they strayed into a forbidden zone, nothing about arms smuggling, maybe you should travel to Palestine and see for yourself what is going on. Think how can14 people living in 3 rooms with no water or electricity be a threat to Israel and before you say they are terrorists or why dont they get a job, they are locked into a refugee camp and not allowed to work. Locked in by the same IDF you seem to idolise. How can a 12 year old girl sitting in class in a UN school be deemed so much of a threat that an IDF sniper shoots her in the head?

Can you explain how everyone from Human Rights Wacth, Amnesty International, the UN, The EU etc etc etc be so wrong , maybe they are all anti-jewish.

Please I am not anti-jewish or anti-israeli but you seem to be anti-palestinian, answer this question, has everything Israel done being justified, legal and moral in your view. Why are so many people against the occupation?Are we all mad and deranged?

How can people and Israel of all nations justify collective punishments, like house demolitions, mass arrests, please convince me why these things are legal and moral

by samba queen Thu Apr 28, 2005 20:46

Noel, all your doing is distorting reality - trying to portray the poor Isreali people as being under attack by Palestinian terror with only the IDF to defend them. But the facts on the ground give lie to your lies.

So for example, how do you explain what's been happening in the palestinian village of Bil'in this week?
Where villagers have been shot at and tear gassed by the Israeli army for staging a non-violent march against the wall that is stealing their lands. This march was supported by international volunteers and Israeli human rights activists, who where also subjected to tear gasing,rubber bullets and arrest. It's certain that without the Israeli and International supporters present the army would not have hesitated to use more lethal force on the unarmed Palestinian protestors.
For more info see:
http://www.indymedia.org/en/2005/04/114995.shtml

So how does this sit with your black and white view of the world, Noel?

Ariel Sharon loves terrorism - it is his life blood - it's no secret that Hamas was originally sponsored by the Isreali intelligence services as a counter weight to Fatah in the Gaza strip.

The Israeli state does it's best to hide the fact that brave Israeli citizens are taking action in support of the Palestinian people and helping, despite all the difficulties, to make non-violent resistance and joint struggle a posssibility. As one Isreali activist said about the recent events in Bil'n:

"The violent Israeli response to the non-violent Palestinian resistance prove/show to what extent Israel afraid from it and its implications. It tries again and again to define the non-violent struggle as violent. So, the enemy stay enemy, the fear stay fear, just by the book.
The insistence on the nonviolent struggle undermine the efforts to depict the Palestinians as those who understand only force, and expose the real power balance as it really is."
Quote from Yael - an Israeli Anarchist who was present and supporting the anti-wall demonstrations at Bil'in
http://www.ainfos.ca/05/apr/ainfos00270.html

by Noel Thu Apr 28, 2005 23:29

Nicolo,
1967 - I was referencing the six day war where a vastly outnumbered Israel defeated the joint armies of Egypt, Jordan and Syria.
Palestinians also took part. What were you talking about?

As for Arafat. I follow the news and am aware of the death of Yasser Arafat. I understand he died in France of a big disease with a little name.
However, his nepotism knew no bounds and Mussa Arafat is now the commander of Palestinian forces in Gaza.
He admitted last week that the three youths were not playing footbal but were arms smuggling.

As for the 12 year old schoolgirl.
The death of any child is a tragedy. I don't want to sound flippant, but that case is unproven and there is a strong suggestion that returning pilgrims from Mecca were shooting and that was the most likely cause of that little girls death.

Finally, I believe the policy of house demolition is a morally justifiable reaction to suicide bombings. A less tolerant state, such as China or Russia or indeed any Arab state would retaliate with devastating and brutal mass murder. But those states aren't vilified so much around these parts, strange that.

by Noel Thu Apr 28, 2005 23:31

Samba Queen,
What, that's it?
You talk about a protest which entered a prohibited military zone, which the IDF were then forced to disperse.
What no baby killings?, no genocide tales?, no blood matzohs?
My favourite part is you asking 'how does this sit with your black and white view of the world'?
And in the very next line stating 'Ariel Sharon loves terrorism - it is his life blood'.
Priceless.

by Nicolo Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:16

Can I just ask Noel why you support zionism so much and why you hate palestinians?

I was in Aida refugee camp recently and saw with my own eyes the bullet holes in a UN school caused by Israeli soldiers not returning pilgrims. These are tank shells hitting a school. Also in relation to your ascertion that it is ok to disperse a peaceful protest because it took place in a forbidden zone, well the murderous IDF have no right to close of zone on Palestinian lands an do you agree that people have the right to protest or not?

Its bullshit that those kids were arms smuggles just as every zionist excuse for killing kids is bullshit. The problem is people like you believeing this crap and peddling the embassy line. I ask again how can human rights organisations, the UN, EU, etc be so wrong on this one.

I ask you is the occupation of the West BAnk and Gaza legal, is it moral, is it right, if the answer if yes in your eyes tell me why if the answer is no, then how can you argue for its continuation.

Also, Arafat died who cares of what I presume you meant AIDS when you stated of a big disease with a little name. Have you something against AIDS sufferers aswell. In your eyes do they deserve what happens to them? If Arafat died of AIDS so what what does that matter, he was a despot no doubt but should his medical condition be a source of fun?

Answer the questions Noel, or go back to the embassy

One last question, have you been to the region and seen things on the ground, have you spoken to kids who are shot at daily?

by Noel Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:37

Hi Nicolo,

You ask why I support Zionism.
I believe the Jews have a right to return and establish a Jewish state in their ancient homeland.
I don't hate Palestinians. I hate Palestinian terrorists.
Ordinary Palestinians have been poorly served by their leaders and the wider Arab world. They are victims of this conflict.

Protest is a right within all true democracies.
However, when the army ask you to move from a restricted military zone I think you should move.

That Israel has a military presence in the disputed territories is a consequence of the security situation. Is it right or moral? Israel has a moral imperative to protect it's citizens.

Apologies if I've bruised your sensibilities regarding the terrorist Yasser Arafat. His death was reported here as possibly poisoning by Mossad, I reckon my theory has more credence. Particularly considering his peccadilloes.

You mention speaking to kids who are shot at daily.
Is there any chance that you are too close to a situation to make informed opinions?
What's your take on the Jenin 'Massacre'?
Or the shooting of Muhammed al-Dura?
Or indeed the footballing youths?

by Ali H. Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:11

Muhammed al-Dura was shot to death on live TV by the IDF while his father tried to shield him. What more is there to say.

And before you point to various Zionist bullshit websites claiming the Palestinians shot him bear in mind that there have been similar denials by the Israelis in the past that have proven to be false.

It is standard practice for the IDF to attempt to classify all their Palestinian victims as terrorists as this makes it easier for them to hide the true facts.

As in the case of Tom Hurndall etc. etc.

by Noel Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:29

Muhammed al-Dura was shot to death on live TV by Palestinian terrorists while his father tried to shield him. What more is there to say. Check out the ARD documentary which did an in-depth forensic reconstruction.

I'm guessing the 'massacre' at Jenin of 'more than 500' Palestinians was the truth?
Or that the footballing youths were err.. just playing football.

Your truth differs from mine.

by Nicolo Fri Apr 29, 2005 15:41

Hi Noel,

Yes my views are tempered by what I saw on the ground in Palestine. Answer me have you been there.

In relation to your belief in the right of return to their ancient homeland, did that give Israel the right to remove Palestinians from that land. Also what is your view about the beleif held by many Jews that they are forbidden a state, check out Jews against Zionism.

Also why dont Palestinians have the right to return to their homes after 50 years when they have been focibly removed are you saying that the Jewish people have a right to remove , kill and destroy Palestinians because they have a right to return to their ancient homeland. In that case can we here in ireland kill and plunder the Protestants of the North becaus ethe were brought here hundreds of years ago?

I too hate terrorists but the IDF are not in the territories because of the security situation there is a security situation ebacue they occupy the lands.,

Again as I asked you before, how can human rights organisations, the UN EU and indeed many Jewish organisation be so wrong about Zionism.

Sharon himself was kicked out of government for being held responsible for the massacre of hundreds of people. I dont blame him he is the product of an obscene situation as are suicide bombers etc.

If you believe that Israel has a biblical right to occupy the land do you agree that this can and is being done at the expense of another people or do you deny that people have been killed, their homes and lands stolen and refugees created from hundreds of thousands of displaced people. I am not denying that Israel has many enemies or indeed denying its right to defend itself but as regards your ascertions that many of the "socalled" palestinian casualties are either fake or caused by themselves its false. There are many people on the ground there that witness and report the brutal occupation of these lands, Israel is in violation of many many UN resolutions. Israel in its quest for self defence have resorted to indescriminate bombing and killing not only in Palestine but think of Lebanon, where its not only the local population that have suffered, do you know of Tom Barrett and Derek Smallhorne, two Irish soldiers killed on Un duty in Lebanon by Israeli backed milita and the killer (by his own admission) was given safety, security and a new identiy by Israel.

The IDF and Zionism are brutal and dangerous . Again I ask have you been there because I can say your eyes will open when you see the reality and not just the propaganda.

by Ali H. Fri Apr 29, 2005 17:03

You mean the ARD documentary is based on the work of Nahum Shahaf an Israeli physicist and a reservist with the optical analysis unit of the IDF?

Hardly an unbiased source?

From the Sunday Times, hardly a source for Palestinian propaganda:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-354292,00.html

The Israeli Army issued an apology, confirming that “the shots were apparently fired by Israeli soldiers from the outpost at Netzarim”, while accusing the Palestinians of making “cynical use” of children.

After the initial statement, the IDF appeared to change its line, claiming that the fatal shots were fired by Palestinians. A German television documentary by ARD drew a similar conclusion. But no concrete new evidence has been produced, and the area has since been demolished by Israeli bulldozers, making any reconstruction impossible.

Just because the Germans want to make amends for their crimes agains the Jews doesn't absolve the IDF of their responsibility. They initially admitted killing Mohammed and then retracted based on Shahaf 's "evidence".

by Al Fri Apr 29, 2005 17:36

did a google search for irish friends of palestine - interesting result

by samba queen Sat Apr 30, 2005 06:43

You know Noel, your talking nonsense
To quote you:
"Protest is a right within all true democracies.
However, when the army ask you to move from a restricted military zone I think you should move."

The restricted military zone was the entire village of Bil'n

So Noel, if the IDF declared your neighbourhood a restricted military zone and used rubberbullets and teargas to disperse a peacefull protest
what would you do -
would you move, would you leave
go outside with rubberbullets and tear gas
or would you cower in your home
or would you throw stones

that's what the all people at Bil'n had to decide
both palestinian villagers, their israeli supporters and international peace activists

people just like you

so get over it,
stop the violence, end the hate
one love, one struggle
noborders

by Al Sun May 01, 2005 19:38

sorry I meant irish palestinian solidarity group

bye

by Hoax for the Useful Idiots Thu May 05, 2005 01:51

Mohamed Al Dura was "shot" by the palestinians as Intifada fuel. The palestinian hoax has been exposed by German TV. Interestingly, it's even questionable that it was Al Dura that was killed. A child's body was shown to the press. No autopsy, hurried burial. No bullets, no photos f the dead body etc...

by Ali H. Thu May 05, 2005 12:31

After an initial statement accepting responsibility for killing Mohammed Al-Dura, the IDF issued a retraction, claiming that the fatal shots were fired by Palestinians.

Interestingly despite the "evidence" produced by an IDF reservist this view has not been endorsed by any credible independent source!

If you're going to lie try a new one for a change as this one doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

by Ali H. Thu May 05, 2005 14:00

An Israeli army commander has been suspended after the fatal shooting of two Palestinian teenagers during a protest against the West Bank barrier.

Army sources initially said troops used live fire only because "there was a danger to their lives".

The protest began against the destruction of farmland for the construction of the barrier that Israel is building - often jutting deep into the occupied West Bank.

The Stop the Wall group says protestors were chased by Israeli soldiers using live ammunition.

Crowds of villagers then swarmed onto the streets in an effort to protect them, but troops followed and continued shooting, the group says.

The Stop the Wall group says the two boys were evacuated by ambulance to Ramallah, but both bled to death before they reached hospital after being held up by Israeli troops at a permanent checkpoint.

by James Walsh Wed Dec 07, 2005 15:35 jimgonewest at hotmail dot com 26 Leinster Rd., Rathmines,D6

This website is full of anti-Semitism and Israel-bashing. Many Palestinians are hate-filled Islamists who want to to launch a genocide against Jews in Israel. They indoctrinate their children with hatred for Jews and Christians. The Irish "left" has many anti-Semites within it's ranks.

by James Mate Wed Dec 07, 2005 15:46

any reasons why the "Many Palestinians are hate-filled Islamists" behave in this manner or would that extended thinking cloud your arguements?

by noel eile Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:56

James

it may interest u to know that many Palestinians are Christian and suffer the same persecution as their Muslim brethren.

Check out Naim Ateek for more info

Dont beleive all that the embassy peddles

by Noel Thu Dec 08, 2005 14:58

"Check out Naim Ateek for more info....."

Would that be Canon Naim Ateek who continuously regenerates the Jews-are-Jesus killers mantra?
Who else should one be reading to form unbiased opinion?

by Avi H. Wed Sep 13, 2006 18:22

I have been in many places in the ME, sometimes with, sometimes without a passport if you get what I mean. What we are witnessing is not the Pals survival struggle. They will survive as part of the Arab umma, whatever happens. What is in doubt is the survival of the Jewish people. If Israel goes down, so will they and 3k years of history with it.

I write not for the hatefilled pro Pal bigots on this site. There is no point. If I say black, they automatically just say white. I write for those with an open mind who may just for once be prepared to see things from a Jewish/Israeli perspective. Just try and make a leap of imagination and see things from a different perspective, from our perspective, even though you can't understand our language or culture and know very little about them...Jews and Israelis are not the monsters we are made out to be.

by geronimo32 Thu Jan 15, 2009 06:02

i know the type articulate,educated and still f*cking stupid!!!it amazes me that people could be so well read and still manage to miss the facts,i realize its not the done thing to attack someone personally but noel is not ignorant so he must be stupid not because he disagrees or expresses a different opinion,i could have given facts,quotes and stats but its all been said all ready,i have the solution to noel and i really hope people listen JUST IGNORE HIM!!!!!!!!!! he loves being controversial and the centre of attention,he likes to go against the grain,and noel dont bother replying because 1,i know what you'll say 2,im not gonna check this thread i couldnt be reading anymore of your visual pollution(im sure any miss spelling/poor english will be viewed as reasons why im wrong)

by Shalom & Salaam Thu Jan 15, 2009 06:34

Wow, they're coming in thick and fast tonight.
I don't so much want to feed the trolls, as to use them to link into an interesting interview with a prominent Israeli Scholar. I will go back to ignoring them after that.

================================================

What is in doubt is the survival of the Jewish people.

Wow. You're not exaggerating there slightly are you?
of the 13 Israelis who died since Dec 27th, 10 of them were IDF soliders invading Gaza. Only three were the innocent victims of rockets from Gaza, and while that is awful for them and their families, I think the Jewish people will somehow continue, just as Gaza must somehow continue with hundreds of people to bury.

As for the IDF propoganda about Israel defending itself,from recent massive rocket attacks, let's examine that shall we?
According to many Israeli sources, including Avi Shlaim, the Israeli scholar, quoting official Israeli sources, Hamas actually kept the ceasefire, and the IDF broke it in November.
He states that prior to the ceasefire (according to Israeli govt records) the average number of rockets per month from Gaza, was 179. And after the ceasefire, the figure dropped quickly, to 3 /month, which were probably the last of the die hards.
He also says that after the IDF broke the ceasefire, and started their assault on Gaza, the Israeli government quietly removed from their website the tables showing how effective the ceasefire had been, and instead showed an average over a longer period, which gave a false impression of continued rocket attacks.

These are his words, in an interview with Amy Goodman of Democracy Now (who is also Jewish, and a damned fine journalist)
The interview was broadcast yesterday.

AMY GOODMAN: Professor Avi Shlaim, Israel says the reason it has attacked Gaza is because of the rocket fire, the rockets that Hamas is firing into southern Israel.

AVI SHLAIM: This is Israeli propaganda, and it is a pack of lies. The important thing to remember is that there was a ceasefire brokered by Egypt in July of last year, and that ceasefire succeeded. So, if Israel wanted to protect its citizens—and it had every right to protect its citizens—the way to go about it was not by launching this vicious military offensive, but by observing the ceasefire.

Now, let me give you some figures, which I think are the most crucial figures in understanding this conflict. Before the ceasefire came into effect in July of 2008, the monthly number of rockets fired—Kassam rockets, homemade Kassam rockets, fired from the Gaza Strip on Israeli settlements and towns in southern Israel was 179. In the first four months of the ceasefire, the number dropped dramatically to three rockets a month, almost zero. I would like to repeat these figures for the benefit of your listeners. Pre-ceasefire, 179 rockets were fired on Israel; post-ceasefire, three rockets a month. This is point number one, and it’s crucial.

And my figures are beyond dispute, because they come from the website of the Israeli Foreign Ministry. But after initiating this war, this particular table, neat table, which showed the success of the ceasefire, was withdrawn and replaced with another table of statistics, which is much more obscure and confusing. Israel—the Foreign Ministry withdrew these figures, because it didn’t suit the new story.

The new story said that Hamas broke the ceasefire. This is a lie. Hamas observed the ceasefire as best as it could and enforced it very effectively. The ceasefire was a stunning success for the first four months. It was broken not by Hamas, but by the IDF. It was broken by the IDF on the 4th of November, when it launched a raid into Gaza and killed six Hamas men.

The rest is at http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/14/leading_israeli_s...srael

by Pgibson Thu Jan 15, 2009 08:35

The Saxons (Who invaded from Saxony in Germany..where else.)pushed the Celts out of England and into Cornwall and Wales and Scotland.

That was only 1500 years or so ago...closer in time than the scattering of the Jews.

The Welsh ( Which means "foreigners" in the Saxon language.) have as much right to claim England back as the Jews have to claim back Palestine.

We Irish should go and claim back the Basque Country because genetics prove that our "Ancient Homeland." was there 20,000 years ago.

This "Ancient Homeland" business is a load of religious crap.

by Pat Ohara Thu Jan 15, 2009 08:46

A "Racial" point:

The Palestinians are a SEMITIC race like the Jews.

If you are pro-Palestinian you cannot simultaneously be anti-Semitic.

by Mary Kelly Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:24

Caoimhe available for interview from Jabaliya.

Caoimhe is working with the medics in Jabaliya North of Gaza. The situation in the hospitals is worse than desperate,-no masks or gloves, few drugs, doctors operating by the light from mobile phones. Anybody with connections to the media, please pass her phone number to them as she wants to do interviews. Also with her is Ewa Jasiewicz.. I worked with them both for a short while in Jenin 2002. Their longterm unstinting dedicated humanitarian work for Palestine deserves our imaginative support.

Caoimhe 00972598273960
Ewa 00972598700497