Collapse of the Council

by reality checker Mon Nov 29, 2004 13:53

This threat is like an axe constantly hanging over the councillors, held by Corpo officials, the Minister for Environment & Local Gov., and the City Managers - if you dont do what we tell you, we'll give you the chop. No questions asked.

The Councillors should stand firm - Dublin Corporation is an old institution and its dissolution from above would cause uproar. It would be the only local authority area in the country to have no elected representation. THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. They should reject the estimates and work out something else.

by ABTA Mon Nov 29, 2004 14:02

If the councillors don't have the power to do with the estimates what they want to do, well then there is no democracy. Why keep the joke alive?
Doubt it will happen though.

by Jack Mon Nov 29, 2004 14:14

"The Labour guy I was talking to pointed out that the City Manager wants to privatize thousands of Council flats and radically cut the social housing stock and that projects like this and others will be implemented by the City bureaucracy."

Do you really think the newly founded Socialist Fianna Fail will want this to happen in the build up to an election. I don't think so.
If they thought the response of the bin campaigners was nightmarish last year, imagine the response if they attempted this.

by Jill Mon Nov 29, 2004 14:26

It isnt being billed as privatisation of them, its being sold as the opportunity for people to buy their own homes within the complexes - and possibly when ownership reaches a certain percentage in a block, the council will give respsonsibility for maintenance over to private management companies.

by Still not payin Mon Nov 29, 2004 14:29

The illegitimacy of aboloishing the corpo when things are not going the privatizers way can be effectively ignored if not recognized, i.e councillors should still meet and carry on working as elected body which would mtotally expose the whole stinking set-up, I think something similar was tried here already around 1919/20.

by easy answer Mon Nov 29, 2004 15:29

If the council is dissolved the councillors should defy the ban and continue to meet. The dissolution shold also be met with an immediate all out strike of all council workers.

by Justin Moran - SF (Personal Capacity) Mon Nov 29, 2004 15:45

I think the question of what the Anti-Bin Tax Campaign wants to happen in the event of the Council collapsing is an important one to be asked, and something I've never seen them coherently outline.

The notion of carrying on regardless is, well it's imaginative and very idealistic but it's also a bit disconnected. Why and how would the Council meet when it would have no power?

Councilors will be unable to make representations, have no right to contact the housing, maintenance, refuse departments and so on. The gathering of Councilors would in essence be a talking shop, the only reason for the maintenance of which would be to continually make the point that the suspension of the Council was undemocratic.

And would the 'provisional' Council be democratic? Who would sit on it? Would Labour? Would Fianna Fail?

In other words even if a majority of Councilors collapse the Council, will a majority of Councilors set up and take part in this new body? Will FF Councilors voting against the Charges for personal political reasons take part in what would be a revolutionary body?

You could end up with an unrepresentative rump of SF and Independent Councilors.

In regard to reality checker's comment, he neglects to point out that Dublin Corporation, as it was then, was suspended on the order of the Minister for Environment and Local Government in the 1970s. So not only can they do it, they've done it in the past.

And if you think Fianna Fail aren't licking their lips at seeing the 'alternative' coalition of FG and Labour carry the can for the dissolution of the Council you're being a little naive in your understanding of Fianna Fail. And make no mistake, as the dominant coalition, if FG and Labour fail to pass the Estimates the Council will be suspended. And FF can point to their opponents and ask the people if they can't run a Council, how can they be trusted to run the country>

by easy answer Mon Nov 29, 2004 15:48

If the trade unions in the Dublin City council met the undemocratic dissolution of the council with an immediate all out strike of city council workers the government would think twice and any dissolution would be short lived. What do people think about this approach?

by Ray Mon Nov 29, 2004 15:54

If the council does end up voting down the estimates, the obvious thing to do is to keep meeting, in public. Say that they are representing their voters, and that the city manager and central government don't have the moral authority to disband them. Pass another set of estimates, that drops the bin charges and agrees on another income source. Hold council meetings in public. Act as a government in exile. Civil servants aren't going to stop taking their calls, so there's no question about being unable to contact the housing etc departments.

(I think the only way it could happen is if there's a breakdown of communication - enough councillors thinking that everyone else will vote for the estimates, and that they can safely vote against. )

(Wow, Justin, you really are determined to pass ammunition to the 'SF is just another reformist party, and has lost any revolutionary credibility it ever had' crowd, aren't you?)

by Ray Mon Nov 29, 2004 15:56

But its not going to happen, or at least not immediately. After a couple of weeks or months of council vs government deadlock, you might get the council workers out, as part of a general public protest. But there isn't the confidence or organisation for it to happen immediately on the dissolution of the council.

by easy answer Mon Nov 29, 2004 16:17

A strike may not happen at the current time but it is what is needed and it is what needs to be built for in the unions. I think the Bin Tax campaigns should start calling for this in the unions and start putting presure on the bureacrats. If the council keeps meeting it will be largely symbolic and in reality will have no effect and probably wont even happen. Careerists in SF, Labour and the other parties would prefer to co-operate with some commissioner.

If the dissolution is to be defeated we need to shut down all council services, this is the only thing the government will listen to.

by Justin Moran - SF (Personal Capacity) Mon Nov 29, 2004 16:24

I'm not particularly interested in the opinions of political non-entities to be honest Ray, not yourself I hasten to add, but the kind of geniuses who spent Marxism attacking us and calling for support for the beheading of innocent civilians as part of the 'Resistance' in Iraq.

Frankly I find the delusions of grandeur and the lack of strategic thinking evident in many of the individuals active in the Anti-Bin Tax campaign far more threatening to revolutionary politics than anything I've ever written.

I merely outlined what I feel is an important issue, the inability of the Campaign to lay out how they intend to proceed in the event of the Council collapsing. I do not believe the Council will collapse, but I find it most telling that the people calling for its demise don't have the first clue what they'd do in those circumstances.

The notion of continuting to meet is, as I said, a pleasant one, but explain how it will work.

The majority of Councilors will not take part in it. Indeed the majority of Councilors will condemn any such 'provisional' Council. It is not as if there are 30 SF councilors who can walk out and set up the true Council.

Your point on whether Civil Servants will take the calls or not is kind of irrelevant. Civil servants take my calls. The point is that the powers Councilors have to make representations will be greatly undermined.

This might not be an issue for people who do not support electoral politics, or who are uninterested in providing practical support for working class people, holding clinics, helping people get housing and so on, but it might be for actual constituents.

The suggestion of strike action is a good one, but if the Union bureaucrats will prevent workers taking strike action to defend public sector companies and their own wages, do you really think they’re going to swing in behind a couple of dozen councilors?

by ABTA Mon Nov 29, 2004 16:29

... that the estimates should be passed.

You can attack the 'clueless' campaign all you like but at the end of the day Sinn Fein ran in the local elections on a platform of defeating the bin charges - so what do Sinn Fein think should happen?

by easy answer Mon Nov 29, 2004 16:37

I don't think that a call for a mass campaign of opposition including work stoppages and an all out strike of council workers is a demand that shoudl not be put forward or is one that people woud not support. If the council voted against bin tax and was dissolved this would hugely anger most people, the bin tax is a hated tax and is opposed by a majority of people. OK, the bureacracy of the union movement is a problem but this does not mean we should just give up on the ONLY strategy that would seriously challenge the government. The bureacracy can be pushed if the anti bin tax campaign builds itslef in the unions and the bureacracy can be by-passed if there is demonstrated to the council workers for there to be mass support for strike action.

by Cieran Mon Nov 29, 2004 16:38

Justin,
You claim that if the council is dissolved....

"Councilors will be unable to make representations, have no right to contact the housing, maintenance, refuse departments and so on."

Every citizen has a right to contact all these departments. More importantly, community councils and residents associations would probably in a better position if they were meeting with the council directly rather than depending on the councillors.
I think this whole debate shows how powerless and undemocratic local government really is.
I don't think Labour have the bottle for voting down the estimates but remember that it has to be a Fianna Fail Minister for the Environment to actually disband the council and FF certainly wouldn't want to do that in the current climate and in the run up to an election. Whatever happens, there will be a serious backlash for whichever party blinks first!

by Amused Mon Nov 29, 2004 16:44

Well in the end the voters made their decision and they elected Labour and Sinn Fein councillors instead of you. Its known as Democracy. Are you now saying that you will make no further representations to the Council of behalf of the people you wished to represent as a Councillor? Will you tell them to go away and make their own representations?

by Ray Mon Nov 29, 2004 16:52

"I do not believe the Council will collapse, ... indeed the majority of Councilors will condemn any such 'provisional' Council."

The two are related, really. If a majority of councillors were prepared to vote down the estimates, in the face of threatened dissolution, they'd probably also be prepared to set up a 'provisional' council. I don't think either is likely, but they're more or less equally _un_likely.

"The point is that the powers Councilors have to make representations will be greatly undermined. "

Can you be more specific here? I'm sure legally councillors wouldn't be able to instruct civil servants on planning matters and that kind of thing, but you seem to be talking about phoning the housing department to get broken street lights fixed, that kind of thing. I can't see how their ability to do this would be changed very much. (remember, whoever they call knows there's a good chance they'll be legal again in a couple of weeks)

by provoid Mon Nov 29, 2004 16:52

"the kind of geniuses who spent Marxism attacking us and calling for support for the beheading of innocent civilians as part of the 'Resistance' in Iraq"

So Justin - swp announced support for the activities of al q in iraq - did they? Or is that a spot of sub-myresean 'with the US or with the choppers of heads' rhetoric on your part?

I wonder what proportion of SF supporters and members would to some extent support the various factions resisting US occupation in Iraq? I'd venture that it would be very very substantial. I'd also venture to say that such terms as John Negroponte / Dirty Wars / Black Ops / FRU would pop up and richen the analysis somewhat

by ABTA Mon Nov 29, 2004 17:02

If you are mad enough to be at Marxism, well that's your tough luck.
Spot many other (non-swp) socialists at it?
Ignore them - that's what the rest try to do.

by Cieran Mon Nov 29, 2004 17:05

"Are you now saying that you will make no further representations to the Council of behalf of the people you wished to represent as a Councillor? Will you tell them to go away and make their own representations?"

Get an adult to read my previous post. As I've already said, community councils and residents associations are better off dealing with the council directly rather than depending on councillors (I'm sure some councillors are genuine but this doesn't negate my point). I have no illusions in the power of a councillor, the reason I ran was to simply get first hand access to any upcoming planning schemes etc.. because the community wasn't getting this information and had suffered some disgraceful planning decisions because of this. Oh,and of course, the money.
And yes I will still be representing people in my area as I have done for more than 10 years.

by . Mon Nov 29, 2004 17:06

.

by Amused Mon Nov 29, 2004 17:10

You wanted to be a Councillor, but the people didnt elect you. What a disappointment Democracy is. You wrote letters on behalf of your prospective constituents, if you had been elected you would now be writing on their behalf on Council headed paper.

You are a fraud, you condemn others for doing what you do yourself.

by Terry Mon Nov 29, 2004 17:12

I just thought it might be worthing adding to the stew pot here, that the waiver scheme is being scrapped in Limerick City.

See related link for the story. Apparently legal advice from the Attorney General says that once a service has been privatised, by law a council can not continue with it's wavier system

This means it will go in all councils -i.e. all the Dublin councils. Maybe somebody could ask for a response from the council on the news from Limerick.

by Cieran Mon Nov 29, 2004 17:27

Amused,
You're concept of democracy is indeed interesting considering the topic this thread is discussing.
I didn't condemn anybody, if politicians need to become a councillor as a stepping stone to a TD then that is fine but don't pretend that it's in the interest of the people.
The point of my original comment was to show that the anti bin tax campaign do see the dissolution of the council as a significant victory. Unfortunately this is unlikely to happen.

by Amused Mon Nov 29, 2004 17:48

'if politicians need to become a councillor as a stepping stone to a TD then that is fine but don't pretend that it's in the interest of the people.'

But Cieran thats what you were doing! How are you different?

by Curious Mon Nov 29, 2004 18:14

"The point of my original comment was to show that the anti bin tax campaign do see the dissolution of the council as a significant victory. "

Sez who? No Campaign meeting agreed this. It might be Cierans opinion but its not the opinion of any of the Dublin Campaigns. Cieran please do not act as if you can create new policy for the campaign. Your Cabra group can adopt that policy if decides so. But you cannot impose it on everyone else. But you should at least get it adopted by your local campaign first.

by voter Mon Nov 29, 2004 18:17

I don't see what is wrong with Cieran standing in the council elections. He sees it as a way of better giving a voice to the people of his area. He is right! Local papers and people in general will be more likely to listen to someone if he is a cllr rather then being an ordinary joe, this is unfortunately the case. just because someone stands in a local election for a bourgeois institution does not mean they accept the legitimacy of bourgeois 'democracy' or the capitalist system

by wolfotad4 Mon Nov 29, 2004 18:25

.

by Amused Mon Nov 29, 2004 18:26

Cieran acted no different than any other politician whipping up hysteria about Law and Order in an attempt to get votes.

by Taxer Mon Nov 29, 2004 19:16

"The point of my original comment was to show that the anti bin tax campaign do see the dissolution of the council as a significant victory. "

Is there anybody within the campaign who doesn't see the dissolution of the council as a significant victroy?
What other power have the councillors on this issue?

by Curious Mon Nov 29, 2004 19:22

How do you know how EVERYONE in the Campaign thinks on this issue? The ATBC has never decided that it wants to see DCC abolished or that it would see such abolishment as a victory. If WCA, SP, SWP or whoever believe that this is a laudable aim then they should get such a policy adopted by the Campaign.

Raise it at your local ABTC then (if its adopted)at the City wide or County wide ABTC. Individual members such as Cieran cannot decide policy for an entire Campaign.

by Cieran Mon Nov 29, 2004 19:30

It is the policy of the Cabra campaign and has been since this time last year. I don't speak for other campaigns.

by SF Mon Nov 29, 2004 19:50

Speaking following a meeting of Sinn Féin's group on Dublin City Council today, group leader Christy Burke confirmed that Sinn Féin's ten Councillors will be voting against the Book of Estimates tonight if it includes a 75% increase in Bin Charge rates.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/7593

by Tom Mon Nov 29, 2004 21:29

"the kind of geniuses who spent Marxism attacking us and calling for support for the beheading of innocent civilians as part of the 'Resistance' in Iraq."

Who is justin referring to here?? (I await his answer)
I was at Marxism and at the main session on Iraq- the beheading of innocent civilains was completely condemned.
Justin just seems interested in throwing lies around to deflect attention form SF antics!

by iosaf Mon Nov 29, 2004 21:44

like the ones you get for school class room representatives, and unlike the ones they got in Ukraine but sort of like the one that voted in the Zapatero government in Spain?

where like the majority of people vote for one side which like wins?

& hopefully then the council has nothing do with bombs, media manipulation or an international conspiracy be it jewish masonic or of malafactorous evil doers and terrorists?

Just wondering.

by pat c Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:09

Sinn Fein had the largest contingent on the demo last night. All SF Councillors voted against the estimates.

Despite this SWP members with megaphones were shouting anti SF slogans and equating SF with FF, FG, PDs and the Greens. This was not just the mindless sectarianism of junior trots. Leading SWP members including Brid Smith were present and did nothing to stop this.


What exactly were the SWP up to. Did they weant to split the demo or split all opposition to the Bin Tax?

by observer Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:25

They are like the little boy with his nose pressed up aginst the window looking at all the other kids playing outside. Their sectarianism is simply a reflection of their irrelevance and impotence. It drives them absolutely mad that SF, Collins, Raferty and the SP (in Fingal) have the means to effectively represent working class people while they do not, and never will.

by Justin Moran - SF (Personal Capacity) Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:29

Tom, it wasn't at the discussion on Iraq, but the one on national liberation. The SWP speaker told the House that the Iraqi Resistance deserved unquestioning support and that while the beheading of innocent people was understandably difficult for people to accept, 'revolution is not a bloodless thing'.

As for distracting from SF antics, all ten of our councillors voted against the Charges last night and there was a large SF presence outside at the protest. I see nothing to distract people from but a lot to be proud of.

Good to see SWP sectarianism alive and well at demonstrations.

by A yes voting Leftie Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:24

How I love to see this bunch of unlectable psuedo Working Class - but really Middle Class - political opportunists split and split and split again. fair play to those Labour Councillors who saw the reality of the situation and instead of playing to the gallery took those responsibilities seriously delivered to their Constituencies and continue to work for a better Dublin.

by ABTA Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:37

Who are you? Bertie Ahern.
All the Labour Party did last night was show that they are ready to go into Government with Fine Gael. Ready to run the state in the interests of big business.
The people won't forget you helping to implement stealth taxes.

by Michael Hennigan Tue Nov 30, 2004 17:45

Why does a bin tax evoke such a reaction when people passively accept so many stealth taxes including the failure to adjust tax bands in recent years which put single average earnersin particular, in the top tax bracket?

The argument about double taxation is often used but anyone who tried to avoid double taxation would have a grim life. Last week Cowen disclosed that 28% of the price of a new house is tax: 31% of the cost of a pint, 21% of electricity cost, TV licence tax etc etc

Shouldn't the campaign be for better reliefs for people who cannot afford the tax as charging -even 15c on a plastic bag- can be a useful tool to underpin a positive environmental policy?

by seedot Tue Nov 30, 2004 18:39

In many ways it is about the way we organise our society - based on market forces and you get what you pay for or pooling resources to deliver collective goods like clean, healthy streets and neighbourhoods.

Bins, collected by the council were introduced 125 years ago to combat disease. They were the start of environmental legislation, were the first universal service that all local authorities in Ireland and England were mandated to provide and made a serious contribution to improving mortality rates in the newly industrialised cities.

Now, supposedly for environmental reasons, rubbish will once more be left on the streets of our cities.

We are told that, in Dublin city, the environmentally friendly thing to do is to leave your non-recyclable waste sitting in your bin for up to four weeks - otherwise your charge will have increased by 75%.

Waivers are illegal where the bins are privatised, and under EU competition law the fact that the council is charging means the bins are de facto privatised.

The bin charges are pretty fundamental - this is not just about the money. The fact that 4 years after tey were introduced there is still sizeable resistance in Dublin city despite the lack of any real political support shows the numbers who realise this.

by SWP Commment Tue Nov 30, 2004 23:38

QUOTE This was not just the mindless sectarianism of junior trots. Leading SWP members including Brid Smith were present and did nothing to stop this.


Agree. The same thing happened in Hillsborough. MS Smith was the cheerleader for the heckling, saw her at

Sinn Fein is a party which will turn into Fianna Fail mark 2 sooner or later. What is amusing is that while the SWP is party of middle class radicals / intellectuals which CLAIMS to be a working class party, Sinn Fein is a party which is mainly working class with a basicaly right wing in ideology. This is because of the fact that they are actually involved at grass root level in working class communities. As long as the SWP remains a middle class party it will be rejected by the working class. The working class need a socialist / revolutiuonary party embedded into their communities. At the moment SInn Fein is percieved (quote wrongly in my estimation) to be this party. A socialist party which is middle class in nature will , whether it does or not, end up being percieved by working class people as being external and lecturing ideology. Socialism is not a belief to be fought FOR workers by middle class parties like the SWP well meaning as they may be. Socialism is a political belief fought for BY WORKERS FOR WORKERS. The socialist party is much more embedded and hence has had more success without being ideologically different to the

by Con Lee Wed Dec 01, 2004 00:04

S.F. is clearly the party of the working class, so the SWP is upset. The 'Irish' swp is really just a branch of the English swp. Its most prominent member in Ireland, Eamonn McCann, makes a nice living attacking Ireland's working class movement,-the republican movement-in the capitalist press.

by observer Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:02

Good point seedot. It is indeed often forgotten that the reason that refuse collection and other essential utilities were either begun under, or taken under, public control (by such lefties as Bismarck and Pitt!!) was that private enterprise was either unable or unwilling to do so because there was no money in them. Now after these utitlities have been made work efficiently for generations (proof being the elimination of cholera etc) the vultures are gathering to pick off the most profitiable morsels. Privitisation is nothing more than a means of allowing lazt "entrepenuers" to make a killing by monopolising essential services at no risk to themselves. Resistance to this ought to unite not only the traditional left but all who value the progress made over the past 150 years. Maybe the campaign ought to put this up front a bit more and move away from arguing solely on the basis of the - let's face it - fairly modest sums of money involved.