Is this what I think it is?

by Acid Thu Nov 18, 2004 23:45

The first young lad seems to be lying on something pink that resembles a towel and well..he looks pretty relaxed. As if he's just lying down. The soldiers are not in chemical gear. Would this not be hazzardous even after a chemical attack? The machine gun post looks stable as if it's something you just dont pick up and run with then plonk down again. As sickening as many US soldiers are, is posing behind a number of dead Irapq children not a little extreme? Im not doubting it is for the very same thing happend in Vietnam but I think the children in the picture are 'pretending' to be dead. Surely even the mainstream media would pick up on a chemical attack of any kind at this stage?

by skeptic Fri Nov 19, 2004 03:37

Care to provide the source of the photo? The context of the article associated with it? Otherwise we might just think you are a troll.

Like the little picture on the main indymedia.ie page says 'eliminate context and you can prove anything'.

That said - Islam Online and Al Quds Press reported gassing attacks on Nov 10 - the claims were not picked up by any major news agencies - not even as far as I'm aware Al-Jazeera. The story has appeared on Occupation Watch and Axis of Logic - though it is just a republishing of the original article.

Democracy Now! also made a reference to the article, and to a Washington Post article that claimed that the US forces were using phospperous rounds in Fallujah.

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-11/10/article05.shtml

by John Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:48

While I will not disagree with the comments and analysis that has been made of this photo allow me to suggest another perspective.
The fighting in the city has been going on day and night over the last ten days. Is it possible that these kids are actually sleeping. Is it possible that they think bedding down where they are that they're 'protected' by the American troops. The kid (bandage on foot) furthest forward in the photo looks to have his hands behind his head, the pose suggests sleep?
I appreciate that if they were sleeping they might be closer together, but lets face it, none of us know what it's like to be in this situation.
Please don't take this comment as a definitive explaination of the photo. It's just a suggestion of a possilility.
Despite the fact that I have read reports of gas been used, I hope this is not the case.

by redjade Fri Nov 19, 2004 13:05

I wouldn't trust the image.

I saw it a while back at the beginning of the current Fallujah invasion, but i have yet to see any text explaining nor a source for the photo.

I did find it on http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/

I went to arab7.com and onfinite.com - which have been URLs on the image itself in some places - but those sites are image storage sites, not news sites.

and yes, 'eliminate context and you can prove anything'

It wouldn't be too difficult to photoshop something like this, so I'd bit skeptical. Looks like Soviet Photography to me - It doesn't pass the smell test.

More interesting photojournalism, as opposed to photoshoping, is the recent work of Kevin Sites. Sites has a blog of his own at http://www.kevinsites.net/ - he was also the journalist that video'd the scene where the American GI killed the wounded Iraqi in the mosque that is now so famous.

Also is Bilal Hussein who narrowly escaped the seige of Fallujah.

The story of his escape at...
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=251539

His photos at...
http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news/?ei=ISO-8859-1&c=news_photos&p=%22Bilal+Hussein%22

note: interesting that Bilal's photos have not been posted since he escaped. I'm wondering what's up with that.

by iosaf / o as if Fri Nov 19, 2004 13:28

Coz it doesn't look like an abram tank, and jayzhus its been a while since i was au fait on my armoured divisions never being that type of officer type, but that looks like a spanish tank as deployed by Aznar in 2003.
am i right?

by redjade Fri Nov 19, 2004 13:37

i don't know nothing about tanks, but it looks like it could be one

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/images/abram19.jpg

and it has the spanish flag on the fender.

hmmm, so i guess we can assume the photo wasn't taken recently then.

photo myth debunked!

by Bright Eyes Fri Nov 19, 2004 14:06

Well, since the person who posted the story did not have the courtesy to include any kind of link, or explain where they got the photo it does not prove anything. Maybe someone is trying to wind us up, and perhaps trying to discredit indymedia by planting false stories and false information.

by XBbrain - nada Fri Nov 19, 2004 14:52

Ok first, Troll I ain't. I got the photo at fallujahphotos.blogspot.com
Second I opened it in Gimp. Get it if you don't know what it is. There is a kiddies version for Windows users. I examined the photo as best I could for any sign of Photshopping. I bow to your collective knowledge of military vehicles, like the APC with turret at the demo in LA last week etc. And the "asleep" theory doen't work if you zoom in on the last kid and see his "belsen-ish" death pose and the second kid in clutching his throat. Ok this might be an elaborate fake, it might not. Yes they do look like they are asleep. You could say that about the dead from Halabja that was played to us 24/7 before the war, to justify it in fact. Are BBC/RTE "troll" too? Hah stupid question really.

I don't claim to be an expert of any kind, the blog title is /iraq/analysis/speculation I was merely proposing a theory, based on what I saw.

by donal Fri Nov 19, 2004 16:03

looks like chemical weapons drill to me i'm glad to say, probably in response to the madrid bombing. that or a battle took place within minutes of a really good general scrub of paths, walls etc. and only well dressed kids & soldiers were invited.

by PJ Fri Nov 19, 2004 16:13

Rense.com has this report about the US army using chemical weapons in Fallujah:

by Pat Quirke Fri Nov 19, 2004 17:26

Looking at the pic,

The nearest is lying on a towel or something and looks relaxed. The wounds on his right leg have been treated. The next 2 are in classic recovery position as practised by First Aiders. The last 2 are in a similiar position to the 1st and the last one looks more like he is looking at the camera than "grasping his troat". Admittedly the picture is poor quality.

Altogether it looks more like an aid station.

Chemical weapons also tend to leave a white residue on the bodies (modern chemical weapons being predominantly liquid form rather than gas). None here. Standard Operating Procedures for US troops (and they are US troops) on entering a possible contamination site is to don full MOPP (Chemical) gear. 1. these guys are not wearing it and 2. they haven't even got it on their person (MOPP gear is bulky and would stand out). It may be in the tank Bustle but if there is even a hit of chemical weapons, they would at least be wearing the suits.

The camouflage to the left of the pic indicates that this is a prepared position, ie one that has been occupied for a while by US troops. Basic military thinking says you don't gas your own side!!!
The tank is an US M1A1 Abrams (Don't know which type, again pic quality prevents a good id). The spanish army does not operate M1s of any type. The marking is likely to be recognition marking or something similiar.

A bit of hysteria, I think. A bit of investigation would have revealed the true nature of the photo.

by read dammit Fri Nov 19, 2004 18:05

the tank has a spanish flag, the spanish pulled out iraq sometime ago - THEREFORE.... this photo is not the us army nor is it recent

by Pat Quirke Fri Nov 19, 2004 18:23

"the tank has a spanish flag, the spanish pulled out iraq sometime ago - THEREFORE.... this photo is not the us army nor is it recent"

Hello Earth Calling....
1. The Spanish Army don't operate M1s so it can't be a Spanish Tank.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/es-army.htm
2. The soldiers are wearing US uniforms not Spanish.
3. It has a splash of colour of red and yellow on the side and front. The spanish flag has a royal device in the centre. This doesn't Ergo it is not a spanish flag.

The photo may not be recent (there is no proof either way) but it is not of Spanish troops or tanks.
Plonker.

by jayzhus. Fri Nov 19, 2004 18:43

linking to info on spain's army last updated in 1988, as in 16 years ago is silly, Pat quirk.

You should go to "soldados.com" the upto the minute website of the spanish army who recruit more foreigners than any other NATO/OTAN army, where on this page you'll see a photo of the Abram M109 A5E which they're very proud of buying in the last three years.
http://www.soldados.com/ccgg/et/poder/artilleria.php
Quite right, the spanish flag has a crest in the centre, but the military and guardia civil colours are just three bars without crest, you can see all their little colours at the same site. God the irony of it, it's 29 years since the death of Franco today, and a libertarian writer is linking to the spanish fecking army, but like Barca are playing Real Madrid in the football tonight so it must be better by now.

The soldiers are indeed american in appearance, as the Spanish in when Iraq wore more funky canvas sort of australian things, but like I reckon its not unthinkable that they hung out with a few americans and polish when they were there since they were not assigned a operation zone for them selves alone. Also they were quite proud of their efforts in cheering up Iraqi children, the first day they arrived they brought water and toys and as I reported somewhere on this site, they taught the kids to sing "o no guerra no guerra no guerra no" just like the kids back home, but this song hasn't appeared on their "soldados.com" site yet (in the section "himnos".
The Spanish armed forces are the third most acquistive of new technology in the EU after the brits and the french, which has continued under Zapatero who's first act as elected president was to withdraw the spanish presence in Iraq, since then MAdrid has sent guardia civil to Haiti and the army to Afghanistan.

I hope Barca win. I might ask my gnomes to kick Beckham in the balls before hand.

by Pat Quirke Fri Nov 19, 2004 20:51

first of all, yes, the info I gave was out of date. should have checked it first.

Secondly, you are getting 2 vehicles mixed up. The M109 and the Abrams are 2 different vehicles. The M109 is self propelled artillery piece, the Abrams is a tank. The Spanish have the M109 but not the Abrams. Their main tank is the German Leopard 2E but it is not their only tank, however they do not operate the M1 Abrams which is the tank in the above pic (M1A1 SEP version but I'm not sure). My Spanish is non existant so I tried to keep things english but... http://www.soldados.com/ccgg/et/poder/medios_blindados.php

The Spanish military in Iraq had a device in the middle of their flag. It had the Word SPAIN in Arabic on it. It was applied to ALL military vehicles. They use the Royal flag for everything else however. I don't know about the Guardia Civil, but the Spanish military do use the Coat of Arms.

"...the Spanish in ... Iraq wore more funky canvas sort of australian things"

The Spanish in Iraq wore US Choc Chip pattern BDUs not AUSCAM.

"...libertarian..."

And how do you make out I'm a Libertarian. Liberal maybe but not Libertarian.

by l Fri Nov 19, 2004 22:20

indymedia ireland:


IRAQ: US-army uses Napalm and Phosphor!

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=67552

by jauyzhus weeps. Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:02

don't know about you, nice to hear you're a liberal,
but _I_ linked to the spanish site, showing you a photo of the same fecking tank, you don't need to read spanish you just keep both windows open and compare and contrast and you see it's the same fecking tank. And the spanish armed forces use both types of ensign, and never have the flag with crest on the front of their vehicles, that flag flies off the end or is painted on the side of the gun turret or whatever you soldier/soldado types call the swivel bit of a tank.
Anyway this is not a photo of an attack on children.
It's a normal propaganda photo and using all our well won skills as military and intelligence types we seem to have come to the conclusion it's a photo of an exercise.

Now work on this:-
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm

by Michael Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:27

What's missing from the debate about the behaviour of US troops and their lackeys in Iraq is this: No matter what the Iraqis or others fighting in solidarity with the Iraqis through at them, the invaders and occupiers have no excuse for their actions. None.

But the poor soldiers are just doing their jobs, it's the politicians who are to blame surely? Not exactly. For over fifty years international law has put duties on the individual soldier not to participate in war crimes. They know that. It makes sense. They have no excuse.

Oppose the war and the warriors too. Support the people who refuse to fight.

by bibi Sat Nov 20, 2004 14:31

here you see the incredible effect uranium munition has on human health;

the use of depleted uranium causes genetical defects:

http://www.irak.be/ned/archief/Depleted%20Uranium_bestanden/DU-SLIDES2000_bestanden/frame.htm

by Julia Sat Nov 20, 2004 18:08 Clonakilty

It is good to see that this thread is becoming more educational with each few posts. Here is my amateur observation to add to the class.
The three children nearest the camera are on a slight incline. If they died there, where is the flow of urine from their bodies? Even if the urine had time to evaporate, where is the urea sediment?

by Ared Dread Sat Nov 20, 2004 19:35

Assuming that the attack happened several hours earlier or the soldiers would not be present without their bio-suits and given the 45degree heat and the fact they are lying on concrete one might conclude that it evaporated. And besides is it a known fact that people pee themselves when they are victims of nerve agent attacks?

by Brian Vernon - none Sat Nov 20, 2004 20:20 me at spammail dot com

Whilst I I netiher agree nor disaggree with the reaonable proposals and arguments put forward, one thing is certain and that is "the power of the image".

I'd like to take you back a few weeks. It was just before the US Presiential Elections. The Evil Emperor Ming From Planet Mongo made an unscheduled broadcast to the American people.

The image you see of "OBL" (hahahahahaha) is straight from the Al-Jazeera website, where the tape was dropped in by "a mysterious person".

I yoink'd it off their site opened it in Gimp, zoomed and cropped, and pointed the Select-Contiguous->Regions at the left hand side, this is the result.

The CIA. "It most likely is OBL". 52,000,000 Americans most certainly believed it was OBL.

I think my point is that we are all being lied to. Each and everyone of us.

OBL from Al-Jazeera sudied up close in Gimp

by Brian Vernon Sat Nov 20, 2004 20:32 me at spammail dot com

This is the original photo - untouched, from Al that Jaz.
This man looks nothing like OBL. He has a straight caucasian inverted "ski-slope" nose, the "real" OBL has a pronouncedly crooked hawk-like nose. Take a look at any photo of him.

I sent the comple set of comparative images to RTE/BBC/C4, the Wahington Post. Nada. They not interested!

by redjade Mon Nov 22, 2004 15:31

To Devil Dogs of the 3.1:

Since the shooting in the Mosque, I've been haunted that I have not been able to tell you directly what I saw or explain the process by which the world came to see it as well. As you know, I'm not some war zone tourist with a camera who doesn't understand that ugly things happen in combat. I've spent most of the last five years covering global conflict. But I have never in my career been a 'gotcha' reporter -- hoping for people to commit wrongdoings so I can catch them at it.

This week I've even been shocked to see myself painted as some kind of anti-war activist. Anyone who has seen my reporting on television or has read the dispatches on this website is fully aware of the lengths I've gone to play it straight down the middle -- not to become a tool of propaganda for the left or the right.

But I find myself a lightning rod for controversy in reporting what I saw occur in front of me, camera rolling.

It's time you to have the facts from me, in my own words, about what I saw -- without imposing on that Marine -- guilt or innocence or anything in between. I want you to read my account and make up your own minds about whether you think what I did was right or wrong. All the other armchair analysts don't mean a damn to me.

Here it goes....

Kevin Sites' Photos

by Pat Quirke Mon Nov 22, 2004 16:38

jauyzhus.
Ok mis-read your post, I thought you were calling me a Libertarian

Secondly I know my tanks, and the M109 is neither a tank nor a MI Abrams. The Spanish operate the M109 but not the M1. Look at your own links!!!
Compare
http://www.soldados.com/ccgg/et/poder/det_artilleria.php?id=3
with the above pic.
They are not the same vehicle.

Anyway, as the say goes, "eliminate context and you can prove anything". We live in the world of the soundbite. It is a photo of something but definitely not a chemical attack.

by :-) - $=€ Mon Nov 22, 2004 21:02

& i value someone who knows their soundbyte from their propaganda from the news, and their abram from any other tank.
thank you.

by :-) Mon Nov 22, 2004 21:09

sure I'd be useless in a war, wouldn't know my coalition of the willing from my hostiles, suppose they're all unfriendly tanks. Yep, sireee I'd be carrying the granny and water supply and heading off with a few weeks notice looking for a refugee camp where my boots were safe. I'm lucky - I have boots.

Anyways, always have a look at a few photos before you think you've got "the evidence" preferable taken by different people, @ least one of whom you trust, or you'll never make it off indymedia and into proper grown up news publishing.

:-)

by Julia Mon Nov 22, 2004 21:47 Clonakilty

Read my post again. I refer to evaporation. And whatever the cause of death, as far as I know we all pee when we die as our bladder muscles relax.

by Terry Tue Nov 23, 2004 01:29

There is a report from the JihadUnspun.net website which can also be found here:
http://www.rense.com/general59/jus.htm which says:
Resistance Fighters Hit American Base In Balad With Chemical Warheads - Report Not Independently Confirmed Yet and it goes on to report that over 200 hundred were killed.


However one can't be sure of this report from this website, because there is odd the way it is so well professionally run compared to many other websites and at one time it was hosted in Canada. With the type of reports of 'coalition' troop casualties in the past, one would have imagined it would have been closed down, but there has been persistant rumor it is a CIA fronted website, and kinda of acts as a honeypot to see who visits.

Nevertheless, even operations like this will often carry quite a bit of factual material to increase it's authenticity.

The report also raises the question, where did the supposed insurgents get the chemical weapons. Is this story in fact a ruse to imply in an indirect way, that the Iraqis really did have WMDs and so in a strange way, using it as an excuse for using chemical weapons in Fullajah?

You can be the judge yourselves.

by R. Isible Tue Nov 23, 2004 03:53

Hi Brian,
could you please explain what you find significant in the "select contiguous regions" image? Could you show us an image of ObL that you do find credible (with approximately the same colour balance) and apply the same transformation and see whether it looks similar?

Otherwise I don't see what the control is for this experiment.

by Brian Vernon Tue Nov 23, 2004 16:57

Hi R.

Yeah no sweat.
I should have actually posted the full set but didnt want to spam the page.

The second photo is the "original" which I lifted of the al-jazeera website. I thought Osama looked a bit strange so I "took it home" and opened it in Gimp.

Try this if you have it.

Open the picture in Gimp.
Select the Contiguous Regions Tool from the Toolbox and point it at the left brown side of the photo. Right click and 'Cut' on the region selected. Repeat on the left side. CTRL Z to undo anything you have done. You can see the weird and wonderful regions the tool picks out.

Now simply right click and Scale the Image up to twice its size. Now get the Crop Tool from the toolbox and crop around his head. You will quite clearly see that there is no comparison between this "person" ( I use the term lightly because it actually looks more like a Police Squad fotofit) than OBL.

Now google images OBL and you will find 5,0000000000
hits and do the same experiment with any of the these.

Then compare the two.
Regards Brian.

by Brian Vernon Tue Nov 23, 2004 17:21

Sorry about spamming the thread, maybe others who dont know what were on about would like to see.