Traveller wedding guests attacked . . . by Gardaí

by Pender Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:38

Strange one alright. Is this our minister for justice making a Ceaucescu-type statement? I.E. a grand gesture to say that even after the fiasco of Dunsink Mark II when half the Gardai in the country discovered little more than gardening equipment in their high profile raid, the Travellers have to keep looking over their shoulders because they will never be forgiven for being different.

by peter Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:45

"In spite of the efforts of certain people in the mainstream media who try to give life support to anti-Traveller stereotypes, more and more Traveller families are successfully booking hotels as the venues of choice for their wedding celebrations"

Actually its been very common for travellers to spend obscene amounts of money on weddings in medium-sized hotels.

by Correction Tue Nov 02, 2004 13:19

' when half the Gardai in the country discovered little more than gardening equipment '
I think you'll find there was not only guns found, but also an array of other weapons. There was also Eur40,000 worth of illegal fireworks found on the site.
This I would think constitutes a 'little more than gardening equipment'.

by T Tue Nov 02, 2004 13:49

Perhaps the Minister for Justice sent the Gardai in with riot gear in the hope that the Travellers would react badly to this clear provocation so that they could create another media spectacle and report it as a riot which they were called to clear.

With the recent publicity, had this happened it is extremely likely in the uproar that the fact is was provoked would be lost in the hysteria.

I therefore must give praise to the travellers for showing restraint and not falling for this clearly laid trap.

The excuse given by the Garda the next day that the riot squad / 60 Garda were sent in because they thought the disturbance on O'Connell street was related does not add up. The question is how come they had so many Garda on standby and how come they had them already ready and kitted out in riot gear?

I know the Travellers don't have a big following and many people have a difficult time relating to their woes but I would ask the ordinary Joe out there to consider how would you feel if that happened to your own wedding reception or had even a handful of people started arguing with the Garda, with maybe one or two younger ones being quite annoyned, what would have happened and how this would have been reported. Had you not heard what happened here, but only heard from say RTE news or somewhere and it was presented as a riot, would the old stereotypes and statements like, 'They deserved it', kick in?

by gardwatcher Tue Nov 02, 2004 14:15

What I find amusing is that while all this was going on the anti-war banshees were getting ready to wander unhindered into Shannon warport, and not a guard in sight!
Delighted to see the guards with egg on their faces in both instances.

by me Tue Nov 02, 2004 15:34

The hotel have denied this occured at all.

Where did this story come from .... ?

by T Tue Nov 02, 2004 15:57

Hmm, interesting. Perhaps the hotel mangement have been told to say nothing by the authorities which I am sure they would be happy to comply with.

It might be worth talking to actual staff as they are sure more likely to know and being not offical representatives of the hotel are less likely to be bound by gagging orders.

by Her Tue Nov 02, 2004 16:03

I refuse to believe that if something this big happened it wouldn't be reported anywhere - on the internet, in the press etc. It's not as if the press generally have a habit of ignoring the behaviour of the Gardai. Plus, they could've easily put an anti-traveller slant on it if they wanted to, and reported it in a way that made the actions sound justified. Just too far fetched I'm afraid.

by Curious Tue Nov 02, 2004 16:16

The report says there is video and photographic evidence taken by guests?

by agardawrites Tue Nov 02, 2004 16:19

as some poor bastard who was plodding the streets on saturday night, i didnt hear of this incident despite being around the vicinity
few scuffles on o connell street but c'est la vie

perhaps your correspondent can provide some more detail????

as for 60 riot clad peelers , you would be lucky to get 5 at short notice on a saturday night, i speak from experience.

otherwise keep up the good work indyheads!

by pc Tue Nov 02, 2004 16:49

well the riot cops were out on holloween night, there were pics in them in the herald???

by Graham Tue Nov 02, 2004 20:46

David McCarthy you are a liar. Stop posting bogus stories/

by toneore Tue Nov 02, 2004 21:28 toneore at eircom dot net

Is this the same David McCarthy of the Traveller Visibility Group ?

This story sounds bogus. There is no official press release from TVG, Pavee Point, or any other coverage in any media anywhere.

Sorry, but 60 cops in riot gear would be noticed. Plus, if you think the Gresham is an upmarket hotel, you need to get out more.

by pc Tue Nov 02, 2004 21:47

theres a different email address to the one he usual uses so im not sure , isnt peer review great though...

by knewit Fri Nov 05, 2004 03:17

This story has now been confirmed.

by Just asking Fri Nov 05, 2004 09:19

This thread was off the board for a while. What's the story?

by T Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:15

Can we have some more details on the confirmation of this story, as I think it is quite an important story

by ois Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:17

would someone please confirm or deny reliably this story or remove this thread. there is enough bullshit in the media without this. i haven't heard this story from any other source, what excatly is the agenda with posting lies like this.

by observer Fri Nov 05, 2004 13:32

I've been told it is not possible at the moment to give further information on this because of legal proceedings by one of the wedding guests against the gardai.
The Gresham Hotel have refused again this morning to comment on the issue. The manager I spoke to said he had been instructed by the hotels general manager not to comment on the matter. He neither confirmed or denied that the incident took place, or whether or not he was working on the night in question.

by 1 of IMC Fri Nov 05, 2004 14:08

Iyt was hidden because we wanted to confirm it had taken place and that the author was not being impersonated.

by 1**Nght Fri Nov 05, 2004 15:56

"I've been told it is not possible at the moment to give further information on this because of legal proceedings by one of the wedding guests against the gardai.

this is patent bullshit

it has never stopped any thread in the history of indymedia detailing garda transgressions

this story smells of horseshit to the nth degree

by ARN - D Fri Nov 05, 2004 16:13

Can and will use, but as stated, need definite confirmation on this?

Checking it out though from afar, D

by charliealphabase Fri Nov 05, 2004 16:14

sorry to stop all the righteous indignation about inprovoked garda violence but it's important you know what really happened;

gardai in the o connell street area were called to a fight at a wedding reception in the gresham hotel at around midnight. the call to the gardai was made by the staff of the gresham hotel as a large number of traveller males were fighting in the ballroom area and things were getting out of hand.

two uniform garda went into the reception (shirt sleeves not riot gear) and they were greeted by a chaotic sight. they ruminations were cut short by the arrival of a pint glass in their direction followed by a chair.

funnily enough, they decided to call for some back-up and retreated. several units arrived and managed to calm the situation down, which had now degenerated into several fights spread around the ballroom.

as it was halloween the riot unit was around the area (12 garda not the ludicrous 60 as reported by the original spoofer). they arrived at the scene BUT WERE NOT USED.

the decision was taken in conjunction with the management of the gresham to clear the ballroom.

there were 7 arrests made on public order grounds for the initial fighting.

cctv footage (and its a doozy) is in possession of garda and will form part of proceedings. it clearly shows the origins of the row and the assaults on the initial garda.

sorry to ruin a good story but thats what transpired from the other point of view

long live opensource reportage!

by David McCarthy Fri Nov 05, 2004 17:30 david_mccarthy40 at hotmail dot com

It is good to see independent corroboration that an incident took place. However, if some of the posters above were sceptical about this story , now it is my turn to show some scepticism.
If the last post is anywhere near the truth about the reasons for the Garda presence at the hotel, why were there not media reports about the matter? Experience has shown time and again that there are enough Gardaí of a certain persuasion to feed anti-Traveller stories to willing individuals in the commercial media.

by Joe Fri Nov 05, 2004 18:05

H'mm now that Gardai 'charliealphabase' has confirmed that something at least vaguly similar to the first report did indeed happen perhaps some of those who claimed it was all made up would like to retract such claims. I won't hold my breath.

Of course video evidence would help establish just what actually happened. In that context it is 'unfortunate' if the claim that Gardai at the scene stole video some of the guests present had shot is true. Not the first time this has happened and it does tend to make any footage later selected for release by the Gardai a little less credible.

BTW for those unaware of it quite large numbers of Gardai seem to read indymedia in their own time and at least one (Al) is a regular contributor. Like the rest of us they seem to love seeing pictures of themselves (although one told me it was his kids that liked the pictures). And unless the force is run by loons I'm sure at least some are also paid to monitor what is being announced here, certainly remarks of some of the senior Shannon cops indicate that they at least admit to this.

by Just Wondering Fri Nov 05, 2004 23:23

....and just because there is an anonymous posting saying that this information is accurate, does not mean it is confirmed. It would not surprise me if this did happened, but independent confirmation is need.

by David McCarthy Sat Nov 06, 2004 01:22

Please be serious! How many people who post in Indymedia are asked for standards of proof for their sources? Ok, I am for sorting out what is true and what is not, but give me some credit here. How many of you bothered to check this story out? I looked up the number for the Gresham tonight and called looking for information. The manager on duty told me that this is his first night working for the company. He was not working there last week. But through the grapevine, the porters on duty said there was a Traveller wedding last Saturday night and something happened. That is all he knows. Try ringing yourself. The number is (01) 8746881.

by David McCarthy Sat Nov 06, 2004 01:29

Oh, and I forgot to add where I got my story. The sources were three respectable and responsible people who were guests at the wedding. One is a member of the settled community who is married to a Traveller, and the other two are Travellers. All live in Cork, and I have known them for years.

by Just Wondering Sat Nov 06, 2004 23:33

One of the biggest problems on this site is the number of bogus or distorted stories and commnets that appear.I would not be surprised if this incident happened but...
The hotel are denying it..... There appears to be no mention of it in the media and given the aftermath of Dunsink this would be surprising....There does not appear to be any statement from traveller support groups, again surprising..

It is important to make sure that this story is confirmed because, if it is, it is a very serious incident that can create a lot of difficulty for McDowell and the cops...

by Akrasia Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:10

If this is to remain on the newswire it needs to be verified. If it remains and is untrue then it is damaging to anyone who uses Indymedia as a source of news

by somebody Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:41

The post by the person who appears to have done a bit of digging seems more likely to be accurate to me. It would also explain why this wasn't reported by the mainstream media as travellers fighting at a wedding is hardly news and in any case surely reporting such an incident would only serve to perpetuate stereotypes...

by Joe Mon Nov 08, 2004 13:51

I don't remember the same people making calls for 'verification' when the Irish Sun and other tabloids were running front pages with 'Anarchists plan to gas 10,000 Dubliners' in advance of the Mayday EU summit protests.

In this case I'm not sure what is meant by verification. As far as I can see we have quite a lot of evidence from a number of sources that something happened. This includes
1. The original report
2. The apparent reply from a Gardai to that report giving their version of events
3. Reports from people who contacted the hotel and report that they are neither confirming or denying anything. An attitude that rather suggests there is something to confirm or deny?

Now perhaps the 'verifiers' believe that the same person is responsible for all these posts which is possible but unlikely. If so I suggest they do two things themselves rather than wait for others to do it for them

1. Ring the hotel and see what they say to you, the number has already been posted for you so it couldn't be easier.
2. Ring the Gardai press office and the city centre police stations. The Gardai can and do sometimes deny events have happened but more often they are keen to get their own spin on things.

Report the result of 1 and 2 here. If both are negative then you have an argument (which could in turn be answered by producing the video/pictures that may exist). But your current argument of 'I don't believe the Gardai do that kind of thing' or 'I don't believe the media wouldn't cover an attack on travellers' sounds more like naievity than an actual argument.

by Elizabeth Quilligan - Traveller Visibility Group Tue Nov 09, 2004 14:24 tvgcork at hotmail dot com 11 Comeragh Park, The Glen, Cork 021 4503786

This incident did happen. Dave McCarthy works for the Traveller Visibility Group but was on leave at the time. That is why he did not make a statement on behalf of the TVG.
From the information we have, we think the Gardai will want to forget this happened. We would be surprised if the Garda Press Office confirmed that there was any incident that night.
We are approaching the Travellers from Cork who attended the wedding to see if they will put their story of the night in writing. We will ask them to put their story on this thread. Hopefully this will encourage more Travellers to use Indymedia. It could be a way for them to report incidents that are never heard of.

by Just Wondering Tue Nov 09, 2004 16:27

At last a support group for travellers have confirmed that this event actually happened. David McCarthy should have explained that he was involved in a support group, then outlined that he was not posting the message on behalf of that group. I would not have expected the cops or the hotel to confirm the incident but I had contacted two traveller groups without receiving a reply. I would encourage anyone with information on the incident to contact the above and any guests at the wedding to make an official complaint. This incident should be publicised and highlighted as much as possible. It is vital that this story is broadcast as widely as possible to highlight the hypocracy of the cops and the mainstream media.

by toneore Tue Nov 09, 2004 20:25 toneore at eircom dot net

... then why don't TVG publish a press release on their website or make a formal statement?

by pc Tue Nov 09, 2004 20:34

yeah it would have been better if DMc had proof, hopefully some more info will come soon, (patience everyone), but no one has provided irrefutable evidence of their counter-claims yet either...

by Al Tue Nov 09, 2004 23:03

I wasnt working on that particular Saturday but I spoke to several who were and they never mentioned anything happening in the Gresham. In fact they said it was a quite night.

by Al Tue Nov 09, 2004 23:16

"BTW for those unaware of it quite large numbers of Gardai seem to read indymedia in their own time and at least one (Al) is a regular contributor. Like the rest of us they seem to love seeing pictures of themselves (although one told me it was his kids that liked the pictures). And unless the force is run by loons I'm sure at least some are also paid to monitor what is being announced here, certainly remarks of some of the senior Shannon cops indicate that they at least admit to this"
You have never shown pictures of me but yes you all know my occupation. I dont know about being paid to read this site, I do it in my spare time out of interest, Im also sure you can all appreciate that Im not about to broadcast any further details about myself however if it makes you all happy I will ask around about this specific incident and see what I can find out but like I said above I have heard nothing yet and if it as big as the original post states then Im pretty sure someone would have mentioned it to me. I also think something like this would make the papers either in support or against the Gardai. Since when has the truth gotten in the way of a good story?

by Freddy Tue Nov 09, 2004 23:21

You didn't hear anything?
Would you remember if you had? After all, your fellow gardai were unable to remember their own colleagues after the garda riot in Dame Street.

As for it being "a quite night", did you mean "a quiet night" or "quite a night". There is a difference.

by John Tue Nov 09, 2004 23:33

AL, what do you think of the comment entitled "gresham riot"?

by Al Tue Nov 09, 2004 23:37

The smart remark instead of an intelligent one. I stated I wasnt there, how would I be able to comment without any information? I have told you I didnt hear anything, I have told you I will ask and I will, also, while you probable wont believe me, I will put the response on this board.
In relation to my spelling, apologies, it should be 'quiet'.
As for 2002, I wasnt there so again I cant comment, what I will say is can you remember everyone that was there? Despite popular opinion I dont know all 12000 of my colleagues and they dont know me. May day 2002 was not made up entirely of the same station so Gardai at it wouldnt have known eachother automatically. If you read about it fully you would know that the ones charged with assault were spread over 3 stations.

by Julia Wed Nov 10, 2004 00:43

What an interesting thread this has become! Not so much because of the subject matter of the wedding and its premature end, but because of the doubts over its accuracy, and in particular over the way those doubts have been expressed. I wonder if the same degree of doubt, and the word "liar" would have been used against somebody who reported that three people they knew witnessed, say, a load of Health Board waste being tipped into an illegal dump? Especially when exact details of time and place are supplied? I don’t think so.
I do not know how so many Travellers manage to maintain their sense of self-worth when signs of so many settled people's loathing for them are constant in their lives. Even in Indymedia, posts about Traveller incidents attract more than usual venom from other posters. I think the posts by the person called “just wondering” is more of it. I suspect that anti-Traveller feelings outweigh his / her concerns for accuracy in Indymedia.
Looking at some of the other posts, the number of Gardai in riot gear is in question. I think charliealphabase is probably right that there were a lot fewer than 60. But I bet it looked like 60 to somebody who had their night interrupted in the manner described. The shock of seeing riot gear inside a hotel room added to the likelihood that most people present had a fair few drinks (it was midnight at an Irish wedding after all) probably made it seem like there were far more Gardai present. By the way, the original post said that 60 Gardai was an estimate, not an exact number. When you are in a violent situation, I doubt that you would be counting the number of riot shields.
From the original post and some of the answers, it seems clear that there are two different versions of the events of October 30th. Since the original post is clearly from a Traveller support perspective, and since the poster had the choice to say nothing at all about the incident, it seems obvious that whatever happened was safely in the region of being an outrageous misdeed or mistake on the part of the Gardai. Why start the thread otherwise?
Lastly, I see a lot of sense in the post above by “T”, where he / she wrote: “ … consider how would you feel if that happened to your own wedding reception or had even a handful of people started arguing with the Garda, with maybe one or two younger ones being quite annoyned, what would have happened and how this would have been reported. Had you not heard what happened here, but only heard from say RTE news or somewhere and it was presented as a riot, would the old stereotypes and statements like, 'They deserved it', kick in?”.
My guess is that the only reason the Traveller organisations did not make a public statement about this is that they were worried about the spin the Gardai would put on the incident. I think they are safe enough on that point now, because more than a week has passed and if the Travellers were provoked into doing anything serious on the night, it would have made two editions of Kevin Myers column by now! If I am right, the media silence suits the Gardai down to the ground, so without Indymedia, this story might never have got into the public domain. Like charliealphabase above, I say long live opensource reportage!

by Al Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:21

Charliealpha base,
Yeah the title said it all didnt it? Funny how two C members were completely unaware of this huge riot isnt it?
The last comment, we couldnt care less about the newspapers reporting or not. The fact of the matter is that they didnt, and why not? They reported on other things happening that day and night.
Actually, how would I feel if the Gardai interupted my wedding? Pretty annoyed but if "a few people argue and fight with the gardai" then the Gardai have to respond do they not? And if they do what happens? The remainder of the wedding party will sit back and relax? Yeah right!

by Akrasia Wed Nov 10, 2004 16:17

Is not racist or bigoted.

It is our duty to be sceptical about everything we read from the 'left' as well as the 'right' to avoid falling into some kind of self confirmed knowledge bias.

If we are to have credibility in our discourse with the right (for whatever that is worth) we must be intellectually honest with ourselves and others.

If we are to believe this story without asking for verifiable proof (especially after the original post said such proof is available in the form of video evidence and witness testimony) then we can not criticise our opponents when we see them followng the party line without critical analsys

by mr data Wed Nov 10, 2004 19:24

While the lack of proof does not always intone the events are false the lack of any evidence in this case is most worrying.
A previous poster asked would so many people question the accusation of illegal dumping, but that is not a fair comparison as if something in dumped there is tangible proof of the deed or at least traces of the material in most cases. The main reason I remain unconvinced as to the accuracy of this report is simply there are no photos and this was a DOUBLE WEDDING! Every second person has a camera at a wedding and there is usually a cameraman hired to make a video (not to mention a few amateurs trying the same). Surly someone would have been (rightly) outraged and used the photos/footage to pursue the matter.

by Julia Thu Nov 11, 2004 22:52

Well, Al, any news yet? Two days now..... Surely you can report something, or are your colleagues being tight lipped?
By the way, Charliealphabase was the only person in this thread to use the word "riot" to describe what went on in the Gresham.

by Al Fri Nov 12, 2004 17:28

Christ allmighty, Guards get holidays as well you know. Thats why I wasnt working that night Im not back until next week. Why do you think they would be tight lipped? If they are such ego driven thugs as some would have you believe surely they would be only too willing to brag to me? If nothing happened then theres nothing to tell me which is why I dont think anything did.
Heres an idea, how about the gossip spreader produces some evidence of the event? Or is the burden of proof only when it comes to the Gardai? "What will become of the innocent if an accusation is enough to prove guilt?" Ceaser.

by TRUTH TELLER Sun Apr 23, 2006 23:34

You say that the story that was giving about what happened in the hotel with the travellers was not true
Well let me tell you that it is true and i should know because i was there i am not a traveller but i am friend of the groom and i could just not believe what was happening before my me what really happened was
The wedding was going fine until up around 11 o clock 60 gardai came in with weapons and beat any body asked what was happing and told everybody to leave the wedding and the next morning me and the grooms family went to the gardai to ask way the did what the did and all were told was to leave but 1 gardai told us way and what he said was that a fight happened up the street and taught that it was travellers which to this day they cant proof
And that is what really happened so may i ask you to get your facts right before you talk about something that you do not know about.

by rathkealer Thu Oct 12, 2006 15:44

i am a rathkealer and ye are all wrong except charlie.dont talk unless ye no wa yer on bou

by mizz Thu Oct 09, 2008 13:31

found it a total disgrace! guardai destroyed a great wedding, perhaps they should take to the streets and get rid of the drugs instead of wasting time and OUR money gate-crashing a wedding! perhaps judgement of the travelling should be withdrawn!!!
ITS SCANDALOUS!!!