1000 Dead troops

by The Black Hand Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:10

Its not a news article, its not a report, its not relevent to anything else on the site. Im fully in favour of discussing military history but this seems very biased especially as it labels the French resistance "Terrorists" and finishes with a quote from Adolf Hitler about France.

Should we simply ignore this Troll? Yes.

However the media loves to cut and paste from this page to suit their own ends so it proably should be removed.

by ZXBarcalow Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:31

I see no need to remove it. It's a satire on US policy in Iraq. And if some hack (think Brendan O'Connor) picks up on it and uses it to bitch about Indymedia, who cares?

by John Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:45

I think this piece is very relevant. The paralell between Hitler and Bush has been drawn by many. The military dead in Iraq did however top 1000 some days back. The current body count is 1031'ish. None of the dead are rich kids. Cryptome provide the running tally.
http://cryptome.org/mil-dead-iqw.htm

by Noel Thu Sep 09, 2004 13:04

David C:

To follow on with this dimwitted exercise in relativism...

Why not relate Auschwitz and Buchenwald and Treblinka with Abu Ghraib?

Try this....
Finally, when liberation came to Abu Ghraib the liberators stood, sickened, disgusted by the scenes they found there.

Women's underwear placed on heads...
Dogs on leashes barking...
Homo-erotic photographs...

COP ON

The US and UK forces are liberating Iraq.
Free elections, no dictators, no genocides. It may be familiar, the same forces did the same thing back in 1945.

by righteous pragmatist Thu Sep 09, 2004 13:22

The American soldiers dying in Iraq are fighting for Iraqi freedom - in January elections will for the first time every in the history of Middle East allow Iraqis to vote for who shall govern them.

Who are those fighting the U.S and the coalition? Sunni and Shia Islamic fundementalists, Hezbollah and Hamas militants travelling from Lebanon and Palestine, Baathists, jihadis, Al-Qaida and the criminal underworld.

Thousands upon thousands of Iraqis are volunteering to join the police and army to suppress these fanatics who are trying to destroy their country and turn it back to the days of Saddam or create an extremist Taliban style government.

That must not and will not be allowed to happen.

If you believe in freedom justice and democracy for Iraq who should not hesitate to support the US and its brave selfless soldiers.

by Alexeyevich Thu Sep 09, 2004 14:04

Oh what a clever comparison.

"December 17th, 1939 was the date when the 1000th German solider died while bringing liberty to the people of France."

There was NOTHING walike happening in France during December 1939. And when Germany invaded France in 1940 both sides wore uniforms and took prisoners according to the Geneva Convention.

I think you were trying to make a comparison with the "French Resistance".

by ZXBarcalow Thu Sep 09, 2004 14:16

Pretty much every opinion poll in Iraq shows that the new government has a tiny amount of support, while the resistance has massive support. And much of the resistance is made up of Iraqi nationalists, and almost all of tham are Iraqi, not foreign.

by Voice of Reason Thu Sep 09, 2004 14:26

If people are going to publish an article (not to mind a comment) they should at least do some basic fact checking before making such sweeping comparisons.

by Fergal Thu Sep 09, 2004 14:55

The "resistance" are largely the lackeys of leaders who see a chance to make a grab for power in the post-war chaos. The fact that they are fighting the US (although they're actually killing more Iraqis than Americans) doesn't make them good guys. By and large, none are capable of or willing to set up the kind of government that the vast majority of the Iraqi people want.

And if we're going to look at polls, well here's something from one of them:

Asked how long the occupation forces should stay, Iraqis gave these responses: 'leave now' (15.1%); 'a few months' (8.3%); 'six months to a year' (6.1%); 'more than one year' (4.3%). 18.3% said 'They should remain until security is restored'. The bulk of people, however, said, 'They should remain until an Iraqi government is in place' (35.8%). (Only 1.5% said, 'They should never leave', and 10.6% didn't know.)

Damn Iraqis not toeing the party line are they?

Read more here:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=5200

Oh and by the way, the story that began the thread may be intended as satire, but it's distasteful, ill-conceived, and (most importantly for satire) not funny.

by RK Thu Sep 09, 2004 14:57

1,000 dead and counting. I really feel sorry for these guys, thrown into an ad hoc situation, it's amazing the number isn't greater. Hopefully they'll be able to get home soon. Best of luck to them. Be nice if they got that al-Sadr bastard before they leave mind you.

by jacob Thu Sep 09, 2004 15:06

The man who pledged death before surrender now wants to launch a political career. Nice one! Often people with the 'martyr complex' find other people to do the dying.

by eeekkkk Thu Sep 09, 2004 23:13

Extract:

"When I heard on television that the Americans had lost 1,000 military killed in Iraq, I asked myself, what about our side? What is the number of Iraqis who have died?" said Dr Amer al-Khuzaie, an Iraqi deputy health minister. He admits it is impossible to know the true figure because many bodies are simply buried and the deaths never registered. "Sometimes there are as many as 200 Iraqis killedin a single day," sighed Dr Khuzaie, flicking through a file showing the casualty figures. "The Iraqi people are being eradicated. We must stop this haemorrhage, this bleeding."

by Anon Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:16

The title should read "1,000 dead in France" -- as the US media don't even bother to say "troops". Why? Cause surely it's obvious that they're troops. All other deaths are of no interest -- civilians from sanctions, war and now terrorism, Iraqi soldiers and police pre- and post-invasion, mercenaries, resistance fighters, the lot. The current reporting, as the memory of America's genocide in Indochina, is even more twisted than the parody article above. It's more akin to:
Channel Nazi News (CNN): "Today another man died at Auschwitz, when he fell from his watchtower. This brings the death toll to twenty. Critics of the Fuerer warn that if the death toll here rises, Auschwitz could become a quagmire, and a tragedy for the German Volk."

by David C. Sat Sep 11, 2004 02:29

Americans have an almost total unwillingness or inability to see other people as human beings. Maybe this is a result of their ignorance. Maybe it is the new American racism - they can accept blacks and hispanics at home, but they have to consider SOMEBODY to be 3/5ths of a human being (as they did their slaves). Maybe it's a result of their market-driven media, which only sells them 'news' that they actually want to hear. Maybe its all of the above. Who knows...

But the fact that Americans discount the lives of non-americans remains. Some little Iraqi kid gets blown in half and dies screaming in her own intestines? Who cares!! Some little old afghan lady is sitting at home on her rocking chair when a few dozen American bullets come through her wall and enter her body? So what!!!! A man driving his family in their mini-van in Karballa doesn't see the dusty jeep and rope line of an American roadblock, and watches as his wife and three kids are decapitated by machinegun fire? Yeah? So?

The most conservative estimate of the number on innocent civilians killed by Americans just in Iraq is at about 30,000 people. 30,000 people. 30,000 people. In Afghanistan its another 10,000 people. Who cares? Who really gives a shit?

Were these real people? Were they as real as the people who died on September 11th, 2001? Were they as real as the little kids that Americans protect with their bike-safety helmet laws? Were they as real as the people protected from the dangers of second-hand smoke by American anti-smoking legislation?

Or were they each just 3/5th of a person (or 2/5ths, or 1/5th. or less), who died screaming in the dust somewhere or who sat alone and in agonizing shock at the death of their child or husband or wife.

Americans are guilty of deep and profound evil. If there is justice in this world or in the next then they should be very, very worried. They have richly earned their fear...

by Tom Sat Sep 11, 2004 04:00 olearys at oceanfree dot net

While I understand and share your concern for the murder of innocent people during this war, it is important to point out the following:

I am an "American", and I don't support the war. Many "Americans" don't. It seems very common in Ireland to make sweeping generalisations about Americans, as though we are all joined at the hip. We are individuals who happen to reside on the same continent, just like you here. Our opinions, ideologies, philosophies, ethics and morals vary, like they do here in Ireland and in every other geographic segment of the world.

It should also be said, and not to diminish the responsibility of the American government, that there is a multi-national force in Iraq and Afghanistan (to include Britain, Germany, France, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Poland, Spain, etc.). There may even be some Irish troops involved who are stationed with regiments in the British military machine.

The devaluation of human life in no way stops at the border of the United States. We don't have to look as far to witness a crumbling of compassion in the world.

Peace Out!

by Bob Fisher Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:47

While we're at the body count and relativity perhaps we should compare the couple of hundred dead Beslanian children with the 42,000 dead Chechyn children - as a result of Russian military action in civilian areas.

And 2,800 dead American corporate workers in the twin towers with 13,000 dead Iraqi civilians murdered by the US.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

And the 1000 dead and almost 4000 wounded, economically poor, Americans, avoiding poverty at home by joining the army.

http://icasualties.org/oif/


"In the two countries (Iraq and Afghanistan ), the Americans are between two fires: if they remain there they will bleed to death, and if they withdraw they will have lost everything."

-Ayman al-Zawahiri

by David C. Sat Sep 11, 2004 23:03

...is absolutely correct. Say what you will about Al Qaeda, but they clearly have far better intelligence - in both senses of the word - than the Americans. Most Americans still 'believe' (they're a 'faith-based' people after all) that Saddam Hussein was responsible for the attack on September 11th, that Al Qaeda hates American values rather than hateful American foreign policy, and that Iraqis feel 'liberated' despite American-sponsored polls showing that 2% (yes, two percent) feel liberated while the rest basically feel occupied by thugs.

America and Americans are losing. The bad guys usually do.

Regarding the question of whether all Americans are responsible for what their government is doing, I would ask what the correct response is when your neighbors are killing kids, when your representatives are stealing and manipulating entire countries and when your media is a conduit for extreme propaganda. 'Anti-war' Americans have more power to stop this madness than anyone else on the Planet, and yet they refuse to inconvenience themselves. They don't march, they don't protest, they don't use their money, they don't challenge their friends, they don't learn the facts and educate others about the facts and they don't demand truth and relevance from their media.

There has always been some mild, nationalistic and silly anti-Americanism in the world, but what's happening now is radically different. If a historically pro-American country like Ireland has turned so much against the Americans, then imagine how other European countries feel? Or imagine Egypt, with 98% of its population holding unfavorable views of the U.S. Imagine Jordan, with 97% of its population holding unfavorable views of the U.S. Imagine Pakistan, with a solid majority of its population supporting Osama Bin Laden. Imagine secular Turkey, with solid majority of *its* population supporting Osama Bin Laden. That is the reality *today*. What will the future look like?

This is something new. The Americans have become evil, and the entire world can see it.

If you're really an 'anti-war' American, and if you really have principles, then you have much work to do.

Oh. One more thing. Don't try to diffuse American responsibility for the thuggery in Iraq by pointing to other countries (Irish troops?). This is a 100% American act, and the fact that the governments of a few other countries have been bullied or bribed or manipulated into symbolic participation - in defiance of huge majorities of their own populations - only adds to American responsibility and deceitfulness.

America is alone in this.

by Tom Sun Sep 12, 2004 02:25 olearys at oceanfree dot net

1. "Most Americans still 'believe' (they're a 'faith-based' people after all) that Saddam Hussein was responsible for the attack on September 11th, that Al Qaeda hates American values rather than hateful American foreign policy"

How would you possibly know what "most" American's believe. Generalisations will get you nowhere with me. If you want to make a credible point, credibility is necessary.

2. "Regarding the question of whether all Americans are responsible for what their government is doing, I would ask what the correct response is when your neighbors are killing kids..."

So then, by your assertion that an entire populace is responsible for its government's decisions, you are saying that every Irish man, woman and child helped to aid the US in this war with Iraq and other conflicts in recent history?

"The critical change in our neutrality status came during the Kosovo war when Ireland allowed US armaments, including Cruise type missiles to pass through or over its territory while the US was engaged in an attack on Serbia, without UN Security Council approval. Further serious violations of Irish neutrality occurred during the US-led war against Afghanistan, even if the UN status of this war was less clear-cut. In the ongoing war against Iraq, the Irish government allowed the passage through Ireland of over 100,000 heavily armed US troops in the preparation for and the conduct of the US-led war against Iraq."

for full article, go to: http://www.pana.ie/idn/130104.html


3. "'Anti-war' Americans have more power to stop this madness than anyone else on the Planet, and yet they refuse to inconvenience themselves. They don't march, they don't protest, they don't use their money, they don't challenge their friends, they don't learn the facts and educate others about the facts and they don't demand truth and relevance from their media."

Did you not see what some people reported as close to 500,000 people marching in New York City last week???? How many people protested at Shannon when the US planes were arriving? 100? 200? There are protests and campaigns going very strongly in the US against the war, against Bush, against capatalism....you really need to become more informed. If you've ever protested here in Ireland, you will know that even the most well organised protest won't guarantee change.

4. You question Irish soldier's participation in Iraq? Did you really not know that there are Irish regiments in the British military?

British, Scottish, Irish, Welsh Casualties In Iraq

Lance Corporal Ian Keith Malone, 28, 1st Battalion, Irish Guards.
He was shot dead as he tried to get off his Warrior fighting vehicle in Basra.

go to: http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/brits.html

5. "America is 100% responsible" for the offensive in Iraq?

"there are 31 countries participating in the coalition. On September 6, Armenia announced that it would deploy 50 troops to Iraq. Once this deployment takes place, there will be 32 countries participating in the coalition."

for a full list with troop numbers, go to: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_orbat_coalition.htm

If your logic that the American people must support the war because the US government got involved is correct, then it would suggest that every person in those 32 countries must support the war as well, because their governments are participating in the war.

I'm not even going to continue illustrating your deficits in logic or credence. You need to channel that sweeping anti-american energy into something more legitimate and productive.

by the way, here's one place that you can lend your support to stop Bush and do something productive rather than spew anti-american rubbish....put your money where your mouth is!

http://www.stopbush.com/

....oh, it's an American site, so it can't be real, can it??

Peace out.....

by David C. Sun Sep 12, 2004 06:56

Good of you to ask, Tom. And very un-American of you (and I mean that as a compliment).

#1: Polls, Tom. Polls. A Washington Post poll in August 2003 found that 69 percent of Americans "believed" [WP's word] that Saddam was "personally involved" in Sept. 11 and that 82 percent thought Saddam "provided assistance to Osama bin Laden and his terrorist network." A June 2004 New York Times/CBS poll found that 41 percent of Americans thought Saddam was tied to 9/11. A Newsweek poll *just last week* (Sept 2004) found that 42 percent of Americans still think Saddam was "directly involved in planning, financing, or carrying out the terrorist attacks", and that a further 14% are "unsure". As you (and every intelligent person on the Planet, including all members of the American congressional '9/11' commission) may know, there was absolutely no connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda. There is an interesting discussion about how/why Americans are willfully ignoring reality on this matter at http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/columns/pressingissues_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000628367

#2: Ireland's government is guilty of appeasement of the Americans, and the Irish people are guilty of idly standing by while the Irish government facilitated war crimes. I am ashamed of that, indeed. But here's the difference, Tom: YOUR NEIGHBOURS PULLED THE TRIGGERS. There's probably a nice Marine Lt. Colonel living down the road from you who personally "blew away" (as you Americans say ) women and children, or a Navy Captain who personally dropped a 1000lb bomb onto 200 people at a wedding party. You call them 'heroes'. I call them murderers. THAT's the difference. The Irish people are guilty, but they're quite removed from direct responsibility. You go to church and do your shopping and sit in the cinema with the people who actually have blood on their hands. What do you do about it?

#3: Yes 500,000 people marched in New York a few weeks ago. And 500,000 marched there before the war. But 2 million marched in London, and 150,000 marched in Dublin, with the Irish population less then 4 million. Mark my words: If 5 million people were in American streets every month protesting this madness, then things would change. Huge and sustained protests in 1968 ended the Vietnam war. 'Anti-war' Americans are insufficiently appalled by what is going on, and they are insufficiently appalled for the same reasons that the American right creates its violence and ignores the consequences to others: ignorance, racism and willful consumption of propaganda. Milder, perhaps, but there nonetheless. If you see someone right in front of you kill a child, and you say 'tsk tsk" and frown at him, then you are guilty of something very serious. Just ask the Germans.

#4: The Irish Guards? Do you mean the British Army's Irish Guards? Do you seriously think that they have anything to do with Ireland? Jesus!! The name is what you might call a "vestige of colonialism". Listen: IRELAND HAS NO TROOPS IN IRAQ. That's a fact, like the fact that there were no WMDs, or the fact that Al Qaeda and Iraq had nothing to do with each other (see point #1).

#5: America alone created the war in Iraq. That is a fact too. It decided to make a war, then it bullied, bribed and threatened as many other countries as it could to 'participate' - not to share the costs, but to provide some political cover. Some countries caved in and sent symbolic forces (50 troops here and there) to keep the Americans at bay. Some courageously resisted (Turkey comes to mind). Even in the countries that caved, vast majorities of their populations were vehemently against the war (Spain, for example). I will grant that Britain may be a special case, but even there a majority of Brits were against the war. No other country caused this war - Just America. No other country kills innocent Iraqis with callous impunity. Nobody else actually *wanted* to be there in Iraq.

You are deeply ashamed of your country - I understand that and I don't blame you. I thank God every day that I wasn't born American. But you need to be realistic about what has been done and about the danger America poses to the world. You should stop making excuses for the inexcusable. You should stop swallowing the propaganda whole (like this 'coalition' shite) and start to think for yourself.

Americans are less than 5% of the Earth's population. They ARE going to lose in a fight with the rest of us. Pick your side now.

by Corrector Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:17

Stop foaming at the mouth, man, and lay off the guy. You must have gotten out of the wrong side of your ideological bed or something. Either that, or you really are just as narrow minded as you appear to be!!!

What was Tom's big mistake that made you choke on your lentils? He didn't come on here blazing pro-Bush sentiment or calling on people to support the war in Iraq, he just pulled you up on your rabid and often innacurate rantings and asked you to be more careful in your generalisations. Yet you see fit to hold him by his cyber-throat and spit in his face. How brave of you!

Before you rant at me, I'll hopefully counter some of your shite in advance:

No, I am not a raving, right-wing, pro-war, murdering, heartless bastard (yawn......zzzzzz) I'm just a tad more reasoned than your good self. Rabid anti-americanism like yours doesn't hold the monopoly on anti-war and anti-suffering sentiment in the world, although it does seem least likely to ever have any sort of positive effect on anybody.

You simultaneously berate the american mainstream media for peddling inaccurate and agenda-driven 'news' (rightfully so). Then you use polls conducted by the same media to justify your arguments later on, holding them up as bastions of how it must be and regurgitating them verbatim!!! That is as selective an attempt at point-creation as I have ever witnessed. Having your cake and eating it too??!!

Your main point - that america alone created this problem and all americans are to blame for afghan women being riddled with bullets and iraqi kids dying in the streets - is utter bollocks! America may very well be the protaganist and the american government is certainly a bunch of crusading zealots, but let's not be selective in our condemnation here! As Tom rightly points out, they are the leaders of a wide-ranging alliance, whether you can accept that or not. This doesn't mean that you should baulk at criticising the yanks, but don't be a knob and try to re-write history by suggesting that no-one else is at fault. As well as the West, the Isrealis are to blame for this shite, the former Iraqi regime, the Saudis, the Pakistani government, .... the list is endless. To suggest that these countries carry no blame, or only marginally because they were bullied by the US and wouldn't have otherwise become involved, is horse shite.

Suggesting that Tom has blood on his hands because some of his compatriots have shot Iraqis is a long way off any sense of fairness. At least he is obviously trying to change his government, and seems to be doing a whole lot more practically-speaking (considering his calls for more people to help get rid of Bush) to contribute to a more positive world than just letting off innaccurate rants on a website, like your good self!

by Tom Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:22 olearys at oceanfree dot net

David, I'm not going to counter again as this could go one ad infinitum....remember, liars can figure and figures can lie....and statistics can be found , manipulated and created to support any argument (just carry out a poll yourself outside Tesco one day and you've got yourself a poll.) I'm an American, and every American that I know personally knows that Saddam Hussein was not responsible for the 9/11 bombings in the US.

You seem full of rage man....and it is that rage that perpetuates conflict in the world, between men and countries. You need to slow down and more objective in your life because you are developing signs of xenophobia....and that's scary.

"Americans" are actually a people of mixed racial and ethical origins. It is a country made of of Irish, Mexican, Polish, German Arab, blah blah blah

....so to express hatred for the PEOPLE of America is to express hatred for mankind. You need to channel your hatred of people into a more productive campaign against misuse of government authority and military might.

Listen, the world is full of rage and war:

"At the end of 2003, there were 15 Major Wars under way, with at least 20 "lesser" conflicts ongoing. Most of these are civil or "intrastate" wars, fueled as much by racial, ethnic, or religious animosities as by ideological fervor. Most victims are civilians, a feature that distinguishes modern conflicts."

see: http://globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/

To stop this cycle of conflict, we must begin, as individuals, to reduce our need for control and power over each other....but, above all , we must be more spiritual and less spiteful...and hateful...read my review about our battle for energy in the "latest news" on this site.

Peace out...and chill out....

by The Black hand Sun Sep 12, 2004 18:35

Oh right I get it now. Sorry I thought it was a genuine right wing piece my mistake.

by David C. Mon Sep 13, 2004 18:53

Some people here seem to be suggesting that I am somehow advocating violence. That is the opposite of what I am advocating. What I am saying is that the U.S. is unacceptably creating violence where none existed before, and should therefore be opposed at every turn because of that. I support boycotts, protests, 'shunning', isolation, etc. I do not support violence in any way. And I don't support the death penalty, even for American war criminals. I do not wish to sink to that callous level.

Today, for example, I'm reading about a U.S. helicopter firing into a crowd of Iraqis who were gathered around a burning American jeep. I watched the video of the Al Arabiya cameraman being killed by this attack while reporting from the scene and I see kids that look about 8 years old horribly maimed. I read the Orwellian American 'explanation' - that "air support destroyed the Bradley fighting vehicle to prevent looting and harm to the Iraqi people" and that the helicopter had "fired on anti-Iraqi forces". How should I react to this? What is the decent response? There is something wrong with a nation that behaves like this.

"Peace out" doesn't mean "walk on by". American fingerprints are on too may of the conflicts on that list you linked to. Remember what happened in Germany when too many people were insufficiently appalled by the thuggish behavior of a so-called civilized nation.

Do what you can.

by Fergal Mon Sep 13, 2004 19:09

"Good of you to ask, Tom. And very un-American of you (and I mean that as a compliment)."

"You go to church and do your shopping and sit in the cinema with the people who actually have blood on their hands. What do you do about it?"

"'Anti-war' Americans are insufficiently appalled by what is going on."

"You should stop swallowing the propaganda whole (like this 'coalition' shite) and start to think for yourself"

"I thank God every day that I wasn't born American"

David, if you said any of this to me in conversation, I'd have been itching to punch you in the face before you got halfway through. And I'm not even American.

As you point out, America makes up 5% of the population. Thats a lot of people. What makes you think that any of them care that you don't like them? I can't imagine they'd like you much either.

But hey, if posting rude and agressive posts on a message board makes you feel like a red-hot political radical, then good for you.

by Fergal Mon Sep 13, 2004 19:11

Aha, I forgot this little gem:

"Americans are guilty of deep and profound evil. If there is justice in this world or in the next then they should be very, very worried. They have richly earned their fear..."

This is verging on hate speech David

by Tom Mon Sep 13, 2004 19:48 olearys at oceanfree dot net

As an American, Fergal, I don't react to David's hatred (which happens to reek of xenophobia as he generalises his hatred to an entire populace) any differently as I would if he were expousing anti-French sentiments.
Hatred is hatred.

One of the first things that we must do as advocates for peace with an aim of truly altering our historical trend of violence is to stop being geocentric (and egocentric, etc.). We all happened to be born somewhere. Having too much pride in where you come from is as unhealthy as having hatred for those who came from somewhere else.

David is very upset about America's creation of this war....as so many of us are. I agree with him that Americans should do more to denounce it....and he is right in that if 5 million Americans marched up to the White House and demanded an end, there would be a chance that, through sufficient public resistance, change would be realised.

The only flaw with his argument is that he is allowing his frustration turn to general hatred for the people of the country that instigated and perpetuates this aggression.

Why don't 5,000,000 march? I don't know. People worldwide have become too comfortable....effective resistance is usually catipulted by lengthy suffering or oppression. Why wasn't our resistance in Ireland against Shannon Airport's use for the war successful. For the same reason. We are too comfortable in Ireland....our bellies are full and and we had a good night's sleep last night.

I don't hate David. He is my brother. And if we are ever going to change history....somebody is going to have to NOT hit back.

Peace out....

by David C. Mon Sep 13, 2004 20:16

A great Irishman, Edmund Burke, said that "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". I believe that what the Americans are doing now is beyond the pale of civilized behavior and should be clearly and loudly criticized at every opportunity. But your point that people have become too comfortable is valid, and the ongoing use of Shannon by the Americans is certainly nothing for the Irish people to be proud of. I think that there is a place for anger without violence when anger is so clearly justified. The anger of Howard Dean, for example, had briefly filled me with hope that anti-war Americans were waking up. They appear, however, to have gone back to sleep.

BTW, if calling someone to account for their atrocious behavior or pointing out obvious and blatant injustice is "hate speech", then we can all just give up right now. Polite conformity in the face of obvious injustice is a hideous thing.

by righteous pragmatist Mon Sep 13, 2004 20:34

"Why don't 5,000,000 march? I don't know. People worldwide have become too comfortable....effective resistance is usually catipulted by lengthy suffering or oppression. Why wasn't our resistance in Ireland against Shannon Airport's use for the war successful. For the same reason. We are too comfortable in Ireland....our bellies are full and and we had a good night's sleep last night."

Be honest Tom your belly is full too and you had a good sleep last night too.

You talk about suffering and oppression causing resistance. Your right.

Why do you think the vast majority of Iraqis support their new army and police who are fighting the thugs and gunmen of Al-Sadr and Al-Qaida?
Why do Iraqis consistently demand democracy and freedom?
Why do you think they want to rule themselves?

America and the International coalition are fighting to bring Iraqi freedom because the Iraqis need their help.

Saddam is gone and more work needs to be done to bring peace to Iraq.

We are on the same side.

We want peace and freedom everywhere.
Bush in the White House has liberated 25 million Iraqis and made them free on March 10, 2003 when Saddam's statue toppled.

by Pamela Mon Sep 13, 2004 20:59

'made them free' - indeed!

by David C. Mon Sep 13, 2004 21:14

The American "Coalition Provisional Authority" commissioned a major poll of Iraqi opinion last May. The CPA tried to hush up the results but the Associated Press got hold of a copy and published it in June. Here are the highlights:

- Only 10% of Iraqis had confidence in the 'coalition', down from 47% in November.
- 92% of Iraqis said they considered coalition troops to be occupiers.
- Only 2% of Iraqis considered coalition troops to be liberators.
- 62% of Iraqis believed it was "very likely" the Iraqi police and Army could maintain security without U.S. forces.
- 55% of Iraqis said they'd feel safer if U.S. troops immediately left.
- 81% of Iraqis said they had an improved opinion of al-Sadr in May from three months earlier.
- 64% said the acts of al-Sadr's insurgents had made Iraq more unified.

This poll was taken between May 14 and May 23, 2004 and had a margin of potential sampling error of plus or minus 4 % (which is interesting considering the 2% of Iraqis who consider the Americans to be liberators!). As it was conducted on behalf of the Americans it should be considered to be biased *in their favor*. The trend between November and May and the effects of recent events suggest that Iraqi opinion is much more anti-American now.

(Here's the AP story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5223494)

Iraqis are being killed with impunity by American troops. Their 'government' is an open puppet for the US. Their 'democracy' will be carefully constructed to serve American interests.

I fully support a free Iraq. They are now free of Saddam Hussain. They should also be free of the Americans.

by Tom Mon Sep 13, 2004 22:40 olearys at oceanfree dot net

David, I'm the first to admit that my belly is too full and that I slept well last night. I am struggling every day to reprogram myself after 38 years of consumerist propaganda and brainwashing, having grown up in a very advantaged middle-class neighbourhood in New York State. It will take some time for me to deprogram from all of the complaceny and rationalisations that I was taught by my parents, my teachers, and from messages in the media telling me that it's ok to super-size and that I must get the newest car on the line and that it's ok to spend hours each week wasting time watching sports...socialising with friends...going shopping....even when I knew that the world was full of injustice...hell, even in the states, in the same town that I grew up in there was homelessness and racial divide and child abuse and murder... you don't have to look far from any place in this world to see the harsh reality of life.

Even now, knowing that so many things are wrong in the world, the limits of my activism amounts to writing letters, signing petitions, joining in on discussion boards (like this one) NOT voting for Bush, and teaching my two small girls to be compassionate, tolerant, loving, fair, and independent in their views. I know that those few actions aren't going to save the world, but I am making an effort to think for myself rather than blindly accept what is told to me by Fox News, RTE or anyone in authority. I don't think that I'm alone in this personal struggle though...there are many people, like myself, who don't do enough...that's why suffering continues in the world. If it was just me, then the world would be a wonderful place.

As for me hating myself...no. I certainly have issues that I want to address, and improvements that I want to make; but I am at peace with my self and accept mistakes that I've made and continue to make. I just try to learn from them and move on. Nobody is perfect...or even close to it. That includes everyone involved in this discussion. We can ALL do more.

Peace out...

by David C. Mon Sep 13, 2004 22:49

...don't attribute any posts by 'Righteous Pragmatist' to me.

And here's another quote from Burke: "No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little".
Do what you can. I'll do the same.

by David C is wrong again zzzzzzzzz Thu Sep 16, 2004 21:45

for the foaming hate filled left. You are the one who should be afraid as you obviously on the brink of some kind of episode.Not all Americans are fat tossers not all brits are loyalists and not all Irishmen have wit. ie you, ignorant quote theif. You are wrong on so many levels.

by David C. Fri Sep 17, 2004 09:14

Can you be more specific?