The Folly of Racism

by I n responce to badman Sat Sep 11, 2004 22:15

As i predicted usual pysco economic drivel to excuse crime and by boldly stating 'it must have happened somewhere else' not in ireland you are in effectsaying there is a crime of an ethnic dimension that you are desperate to import as i said from all over europe although to suggest there are not already enough criminals in this country is naive even for your ilk. If you want to fullfill some empty part of yourselves and you think cuddling only one race of baby makes people happy then you must really hate your own reflections. I am a realist i dont make excuses for other people on there behalf i dont feel the need so why do you lot?

by Tom Sat Sep 11, 2004 20:36 olearys at oceanfree dot net

Very well stated badman.

Re: I know theres good and bad in all

If your racist agenda is perpetuated by the comparison of criminal acts by white-Irish or non-white-non-irish then I think that there is hope for your conversion.

You argue that your racist disposition has been formed by a series of personal experiences, and then equate these experiences to 15 seperate incidents....

Please take the time to read one Irish newspaper and count the number of court cases involving white Irish individuals (usually ascertained by the surnames beginning with O' or Mac). Perhaps when your count passes 15, you might turn the corner toward understanding and tolerance. Better yet, stand outside one courthouse for a few hours and gather up your stats. But, I'm certain that even you wouldn't contend that more crime is committed by non-whites than whites in Ireland.

However, as Badman clearly expressed, statistical figures have nothing to do with your racist attitude. I am quite certain that you would be racist even if you never saw a person of colour before, as your perceptions were established long ago. And that's really what racism is all about...perceptions. You perceive people of colour to be lesser human beings somehow...or more dangerous (more dangerous than say...Adolf Hitler?), or less able....blah blah blah

By the way, what makes you believe that I wouldn't intervene when someone was in need. I have on a couple of occassions, and funnily, both cases involved white men....my racial brothers, getting a bit too physically abusive to the women they were with (both cases in New York incidentally...not here in Ireland).

Anyway, I think that it's healthy to have an open dialogue about it rather than to keep it bottled up inside. I applaud you for that. Sure, we'll have you cuddling a little Nigerian baby before the year is out...I can hear you cooing now....ga ga goo goo.

We're all people of value in this world and we really do have to learn to live together...to WANT to live together....compassion is the only path toward true fulfillment.

Peace out...

by Badman Sat Sep 11, 2004 19:14

Your anecdotes are much more valuable than empirical statistics could ever be.

This is an Irish site and you're obviously talking about somewhere completely different. There is also the factor that your anecdotal evidence is worthless when compared with any type of scientific research. A few facts that you presumably choose to ignore.

The proportion of crime in Ireland carried out by non-nationals is way smaller than their proportion of the population.

Crime rates (obviously not including war zones) are much higher in general in Western countries than in the third world.

The above facts (rather than your unverifiable and extremely dodgy-sounding anecdotes) would suggest that white people are more genetically predisposed to crime than people of colour. However, your whole argument is based upon the assumption that there is a correlation between skin colour and potential for criminality. There is no evidence to suggest that this is so. Indeed from a scientific point of view there is a wealth of evidence pointing to environmental causative factors (like relative poverty and eduction). In this context anybody who claims that race is a significant factor is an idiot and is almost certainly motivated by racial hatred rather than a desire for knowledge.

by I know theres good and bad in all Sat Sep 11, 2004 18:53

However of the 15 violent assaults and roberies i have seen, intervened in and witnessed unfold including stupid youths trying to rob me and soon come well unstuck, all of them have been perpetrated by Ic3s ie black males. These are bourne out by statistical facts. I dont fear for me i just dont like seeing old people and the young or weak targeted for ethnic spending money. I am proud to say i cattred a drugged up bag snatcher who robbed an old lady. TOM you would spinelessly do nothing and make up Fake socio economic EXCUSES for this prevalent behaviour whereas i clattered the african and got a 67 yr oldportugese womens handbag back even though in the course of knocking her down the black theif injured her severely.

by Tom Sat Sep 11, 2004 15:51 olearys at oceanfree dot net

Re: you don't like the truth....

I have heard that argument used by many open racists in the past to justify their position. While I can understand the temptation to paint all people of the same race or ethnicity of your attacker (if it was a violent crime) with the same brush, I can't understand how that same temptation can remain after you take time to see that, historically, crime and aggression has been perpetuated by people of ALL RACES AND ETHNICITIES, including your own (be it caucasion, afro-asian, indian, or whatever racial umbrella you are under.)

If your logic is correct, then surely you would hate even those of your own race...as there is no race that doesn't have "members" who haven't commited the same crimes as your assailant. In Ireland, for example, most violent crime is commited by caucasions against caucasions.

It might come as a surprise to you, but there actually are violent caucasions, manipulative caucasions, un-hygenic caucasions, rude caucasions, cheap caucasions, lying caucasions, perverse caucasions, cheap and cheating caucasions. The same goes for all ethnic groups and races. There are good and bad people everywhere in the world...even in your own community.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news.

Peace out...

by You dont like the truth Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:37

I agree that racism has its primary roots because of a fundamental tribalism in our dna. However I am a fervent racist on the weight of my own experience in the real world. I have witnessed first hand the ethnic crimewave that has been sweeping europe for many years. Lefty apologists will probably delete this post along with many others because they dont really like free speech or thought unless it is their own.Wake up and smell your own hypocrisy. The future of multi culturalism will lead to russian style school sieges in europe in the next 10 years. God have mercy on your ignorant souls and weak body and minds. Still 79% dont want to play russian roulette with their own society so admit now JOEKING et all your are wrong.

by Tom Sat Sep 11, 2004 01:15 olearys at oceanfree dot net

One thing that has been demonstrated throughout this thread is that racism isn't something that can be legislated against. It is a behavioural disposition that has psychological and social roots.

If we truly desire change, we must be realistic and understand that compassion and tolerance on any large scale won't be realised in the immediate future. We can, however, begin educating the youth of our society about the magnificent diversity of the human race.

Regarding immigration control, I imagine that this will be a recurring problem for many borders worldwide as the median population growth statistics forecast a world population of over 11 billion by 2025, which is almost double what it was at the beginning of this millenium!

Practice patience one moment at a time.

Peace Out!

P.S. By the way, I was born in New York, but have been living in Ireland for almost 5 years now with my Irish wife (she lived in the US with me for 5 years as well and we lived in Italy for 3 years before returning to Ireland! (anyway, my grandmother was born and raised in Cork, so I suppose that I'm just coming home!)

by Non Irish white immigrant view Fri Sep 10, 2004 21:29

You may want your taxes to pay for people to come here BECAUSE they dont have to work, and they will come here safe in the knowledge they will be fed and housed at everyones expense but their own but i do not ,along with the other 79% who have balloted our 'racist' tendancies . I urge you to respect the peoples intelligence and accept with some scrap of dignity that you are well wide of the mark. Respect that your beloved democracy has spoken and you just cant abide the answer the majority of people have voiced. Instead you whinge on ad nauseum about how unfair it all is.In short Ireland = White 79% racist and probably rather proud.

by Fergal Fri Sep 10, 2004 16:15

Well they'll certainly be leaving you alone joj, if they know what's good for them.

by Tom Fri Sep 10, 2004 16:06

Is it only black people that deserve the attention of the Irish Times when deported?

Kind of racist that yeah?

by joj Thu Sep 09, 2004 20:28

I voted no.

I would do it again. Immigrants must meet us half way or leave us alone.

by lysenko Mon Sep 06, 2004 18:14

re: "Being a tolerant (if bad) man, I just accept this as it is part of what it means to be a human - we are quite a diverse species you know. Alo, on the other hand, imagines a non-existent cultural homegenity and then decides that people with certain physical traits and practices from himself are a threat to his imaginary national culture - probably based upon psycho-sexual factors such as his own fear of impotency and the resulting low self-esteem. He decides that cultural diversity is being forced upon him for the first time, when in reality it is something that has surrounded him from the moment his unfortunate mother squeezed him out of her womb."

Hey, some of us went to college to. But I that doesnt mean we have make our posts ridiculously long. And try and keep the psycho-babble brief and relevant.

by Badman Thu Sep 02, 2004 20:25

[snipped response to deleted abusive post - IMC ed]

Another thing that I should also point out, with relation to the hate-filled fantasies of our fascist visitor, is that his presentation of 'a-la-carte' multi-culturalism reaches similar intelectual depths as his fantasies about migration.

In every part of the world, multiple cultures exist side by side. In Ireland alone, notwithstanding the most recent wave of immigration, we have everything from irrational hate-filled, sexually-repressed small-minded people who worship a phantom palestinian man-god (such as yourself and alo) and rational humanist atheists such as myself (who can trace my ancestry back umpteen generations on this island). To claim that we share, in any meaningful sense, a common culture is ludicrous.

Now, it's obvious from this simple observation, that we all live in multi-cultural society. Much as I would like you to abandon your silly beliefs and adopt my sensible ones, the reality of the situation is that you are probably not going to. Being a tolerant (if bad) man, I just accept this as it is part of what it means to be a human - we are quite a diverse species you know. Alo, on the other hand, imagines a non-existent cultural homegenity and then decides that people with certain physical traits and practices from himself are a threat to his imaginary national culture - probably based upon psycho-sexual factors such as his own fear of impotency and the resulting low self-esteem. He decides that cultural diversity is being forced upon him for the first time, when in reality it is something that has surrounded him from the moment his unfortunate mother squeezed him out of her womb.

He should try counselling, as should you my abusing empty-headed friend.

by Badman Thu Sep 02, 2004 18:13

First of all, I should point out that Alo is quite open about being a racist and he is also some type of fascist / white supremacist / white nationalist / pederast / some other type of lunatic who has graced our site from a well known fascist-loser site on the internet. Notice how he has not answered the questions as to whether he is a racist / fascist ?

He is also probably a holocaust revisionist and an admirer of Adolf Hitler. So, I don't think anybody should waste their time on supplying him sources or anything like that as his ilk aren't really interested in information or learning anything new - they just like spreading hatred.

He asks michael to provide links to back up his claim about the existence of the Eastern block's closed borders and the visits of Irish politicians to beg for visas for Irish citizens in the US, presumably because he doubts that these things happened. That says a lot about his knowledge of the world.

He casually refers to asylum seekers as 'lowlife scum', exhibiting a nasty racism. He also emphasises the differences between immigration into the US and into Ireland as being down to the fact that Irish people are white and english speaking. Once again showing his blatant and brazen racial hatred.

All of his 'facts' are completely unconnected to anything other than his blatant hatred for people who are not 'white' as he understands it (although he probably also considers eastern and southern europeans to be inferior and his concept of race is more rooted in some subconscious psycho-sexual fear than in anything remotely connected with science.

He presents ludicrous and ridiculous figures as if they were fact and dismisses the 12 billion plus euros that was paid to Ireland in structural funds in comparison to the purely fictional and grossly exaggerated figure of 350 million euros that he claims is paid to illegal immigrants.

Everything he writes about Irish emigrants is purely imaginary. Not sponging off welfare??? Not making a fuss about deportations which were standard and routine??? Anybody who has worked in London or Boston, or even read a newspaper in the 1980's will know how laughable this is.

Everything that he writes about immigrants to Ireland is similarly a product of the mind of a hate-filled fantasist. Does he even know that asylum seekers get 19 euros a week on which to survive and many also go to great risks to work, despite the fact that the government bans them from doing so? Does he realise that a vote on whether they should be allowed to work would pass by a 100% margin among asylum seekers? Does he mention a single case of an immigrant coming here to live in the abject poverty that is the lot of social welfare recipients?

Does he fuck. He is a fantasist and a hate filled moron who thinks that we're all as thick as he is and will fall for whatever bullshit falls from his mouth.

by Alo Wed Sep 01, 2004 22:56

Michael is this a joke?

"When Irish politicians were bemonaing the level of regional grants for the 'poor countries on the western periphery of Europe,' citizens of Eastern European countries risked being shot, by leaving their countries without official approval"

Provide links, numbers etc please.

You go on:

Today, imagine the reaction of McDowell and Co., if politicians from a poor country came to Ireland to plead for special visas for their citizens, many of them who are working illegaly in Ireland

No distinguishing classes of immigrants as usual. They are all the same Michael - right? The lowlife scum that enters a bogus asylum claim with a false identity is as good as any doctor training here to treat his own people right? or someone who is illegal but doesnt play the system.

You go on about the Morrison scheme that allowed white, Irish, English speaking Europeans into America (a country of 250,000,000) and make the illogical leap of repaying this "debt" by allowing all and sundry, regardless of background/ability to survive without being a burden - to come here UNVETTED.

Once again Michael, the Irish were NOT bogus asylum seekers. they did not sponge on welfare because there was none and if they did not fit - they went home without it becoming national news. deportations were and remain swift and absolutely routine, without the tortuous legal circus exhibited in this country. Where is the comparison?


And you finish with yet another completely illogical link with money provided to Ireland (which built roads, infrastructure, educated people etc) and expect Irish taxpayers to gladly hand over hundreds of millions (350 million in 2003) to illegal immigrants (the smallest cut) and the asylum "industry" which is making millionaires out of lawyers, doctors, landlords etc. Why?

Why not pay the Europeans back as we are predicted to do by becoming a net contributor to Europe as planned?

Your link is interesting but like virtually all articles on Immigration and racism that come from the left - it is a parody. Fed into a computer program - all these articles could swap lines and write themselves. there is nothing new or original in it.

Let me summarise

The Government is not social engineering enough, the Irish are racist bastards, however, never fear, the champagne socialists are "appalled" and doing everything possible to "stamp out racism"

Everything that is but consider an immigration policy acceptable to Irish people that would encourage legal immigrants - remove illegal immigrants and permanently banish anyone who abuses the asylum industry expeditiously and without the bullshit fanfare, even if they are black. Racism works both ways Michael.

by Michael Hennigan Tue Aug 31, 2004 16:47

While there is a need for controlled migration into Ireland, what is most galling is the mean attitude that is conveyed, given our recent history.

It reminds me of that song-the working class can kiss my arse, for I am foreman now...

When Irish politicians were bemonaing the level of regional grants for the 'poor countries on the western periphery of Europe,' citizens of Eastern European countries risked being shot, by leaving their countries without official approval. Western politicans called for their freedom but when it happened, some of us in the West were surprised how useful the Iron Curtain had been after all.

Today, imagine the reaction of McDowell and Co., if politicians from a poor country came to Ireland to plead for special visas for their citizens, many of them who are working illegaly in Ireland. The politicians go home and their Governement gets its embassy in Dublin to offer a beefed up consular service for its citiziens who are in Ireland illegaly.

In the 1980's we succedded in jumping the US immigration queue and politicians like Bruce Morrison got the US Congress to issue special visas for the Irish because of the economic conditions here- 48,000 took advantage of the scheme.

What is most galling in Ireland today is a) in an economy which depends on foreign workers, how the likes of McDowell and Harney make a song and dance about the limited refugee issue which the country has to deal with and leave the ignorance of some segments of the population unchallenged b) Having to listen to Irish people complaining about the cost of funding refugees when the Irish as recently as a few years ago were accepting billions in EU funding, largely paid for by German taxpayers.

(Two articles which I wrote on racism last June, can be viewed here: http://www.finfacts.com/comment/comment14.htm )

by Gt Sun Aug 29, 2004 07:46

The surplus will be mainly the Irish. Most foreigners would still rather be here in recession. This to a substantial degree is already happening were the immigrant driven downward pressure on wages combined with high cost of living is making low paid work the increasingly the domain of foreign labour. In worse times this will be exaggerated.

by paulc Sun Aug 29, 2004 03:35

is it not the planet that is over populated not just ireland?

by Alo Sun Aug 29, 2004 01:07

Jeff you say "Granted, I like muti cuturalism. I like being able to have the choice between choosing Turkish, Italian, or Indonesian food".

An a la carte multiculturalist line.

Implicit in this is the fact that people want multiculturalism on their own terms and not forced down their throats or imported from god knows where and transplanted into their neighbourhoods.

People like Sadman et al forget that this is our country. Unlike the immigrants (legal and illegal) - we dont have another home to return to if we do not like the society we have created.

I count myself amongst the 80% who dont need the narcissitic, bloated, self important useful idiots and romantics that count their inclusion amongst the 20% as evidence of their over arching superiority. Their capacity for bile and hatred for their own country-men would put any "racist" in the shade,

by be happy Sat Aug 28, 2004 15:59

Surplus to requirements immigrant and native working population will be encouraged to take the boat when the next big bad recession inevitably hits. I personally think this will happen by the end of the decade. The dole will not be as generous as in the dark dreary 80's either.

by jeff Sat Aug 28, 2004 14:52

However, I would have voted yes in this election. Sheer demographics.

I will not sneer or slight indymedia for their views on this- there is nothing more that gets on my nervres then conservatives who come out with rethorical nonsense that only could have been dreamt up out of a crack pipe. Isreal( usually spelt this way by yanks) is good, tax breaks for the super wealthy are good, bombing innocent third worlders good, all that crap I hate.

However, in terms of numbers, this is the first time I have and ever will agree with the ghouls from the PDs.

Holland is a third the size of Ireland, and they are up to the hilt with people; 16 fecking million of them.

I am looking forward to having a country for my kids where we will have a healthy scale of demograhics. Healthy in terms of room to move about, not 'healthy'in terms of some blood and soil ideology.

Of course there is a lot more to be done, but I don't want FF/PDs doing it. I want affordable accomadation, legal weed so our police force have the resources to crack down on the muck we have coming into the country like freebase coke..

And I want an accountable government in it's blatent misinterpretation of our constitution, and an intelligent police force, not some bunch of hick spawned from crossing breeding bulls with farm girls.

But I do not want open borders. I want room for my kids. I have no problem with limited work permits, etc, but I do not want the demographics hitting Ireland. Fifty years from now, Europe will probably implode with sheer numbers. I don't want that.

Granted, I like muti cuturalism. I like being able to have the choice between choosing Turkish, Italian, or Indonesian food. But I do not want a population of 6 million in Ireland, let along fecking 16 million.

Am I still a racist, or is this a valid fear of mine?

I'm dying to know( and, yes, unlike our bitter posters that scrawl in here sometime, I do not believe indymedia will send me to a gulag for having this one very oppossing view)

by Badman Fri Aug 27, 2004 00:22

Are you a racist? simple question, even a simpleton should be able to answer it, although maybe I'm giving you too much credit.

by R.Isible Fri Aug 27, 2004 00:03

by a man wearing a dress and then they shoved him into a wee lace nighty and dunked his head for a little too long under the water? The feelings of ineffectual rage and resentment would then have been compounded by taking part in cannibal ceremonies every Sunday with his family.

Look, if you want to be taken seriously then start addressing the points seriously: why is it that you are willing to impose an inhumane law on the stated grounds of it being no worse than the laws that immigrants are fleeing? How on earth is that logical? I'll let you admit that you're wrong if you like.

Secondly you're advocating a position that can fairly be argued to be racist hence you're being called a racist. It's not just an insult (like "arsehole" or "sadman" or "fucking"). It's a description of your position.

Now, just out of interest, are you, or are you not a fascist?

by Badman Thu Aug 26, 2004 23:36

wot's that we've got here, stinks like a racist to me, an ignorant racist too. The only people who talk about this enforced multiculturalism (without even being able to spell it) are the nazi boneheads.

Dude, the day somebody kicks your door in and forces you to wear a turban on Wednesdays, you can talk about your stupid little theory of enforced multiculturism [sic]. For now toddle off and bully your little sister and stop bothering the grown ups.

by alo Thu Aug 26, 2004 23:19

Rise a rabble "Are you saying that we should legalize female genital mutilation because it happens in some parts of some of the countries some immigrants are from"

Well isnt that Multiculturism? Cultural relativism and all that crap?

I wish peace and prosperity to the Third World, I do not necessarily want to bring its peoples here and certainly not as you correctly point out - completely on their terms and unvetted - hence my YES vote.

by Alo Thu Aug 26, 2004 23:11

Dube.

I have no idea what your point is if there is one but I do know that 80 per cent of Irish people needed little persuasion to shore up the "loophole".

No - thats unfair - lets throw in a 10 per cent anti government vote seeing as they got such a huge kicking and call it quits at 90 per cent approval.

McDowell did not invent the English language nor has he managed to copyright it.

by R. Isible Thu Aug 26, 2004 23:10

You might want to tone down the description of everyone that disagrees with you as an "arsehole". Makes you sound like a hating kind of guy.

You say: "the people voted for laws no more restrictive than those found in the countries of immigrants here"

Which seems like weird logic to me. Are you saying that we should legalize female genital mutilation because it happens in some parts of some of the countries some immigrants are from?

Is your argument really that Ireland should keep out immigrants from some countries and instead import lower human rights standards from those countries?

You can't treat people like shit and not expect to have it rub off on you.

by dube Thu Aug 26, 2004 23:05

"citizenship loophole"

would that be your words or mcdowell's?

mostly africans who are coming here as asylum seekers, now why would that be africa* of all places...

*africa and it varioues countries

by Alo Thu Aug 26, 2004 22:50

Go fuck yourself Dube. I dont think my race is superior to africans, romanians or any other. But my Country is sovereign and entitled to it's own identity and the excercise of immigration controls. It just so happens that africans have been the most fervent exploiters of the citizenship loophole and ruthless abusers of the asylum system - which - if you can think straight - is there for refugees.

It seems to me that being a racist is not all that it is cracked up to be. Anti racists are amongst the most hate filled fundamentalists in this society. As Orwell said - "Hate the haters". A perfect line for the so called "anti-racist" morons.

by dube Thu Aug 26, 2004 22:24

"I am not a fucking racist for voting for the amendment of a botched piece of legislation in 1998."

no but you are for saying this

I voted then for PEACE not for some loophole that _every fucking african could exploit_ when their welcome in the UK was exhausted.

by Alo Thu Aug 26, 2004 22:14

Arseholes - the people voted for laws no more restrictive than those found in the countries of immigrants here. I am not a fucking racist for voting for the amendment of a botched piece of legislation in 1998. I voted then for PEACE not for some loophole that every fucking african could exploit when their welcome in the UK was exhausted.

by R. Isible Thu Aug 26, 2004 03:52

QUOTE Chris: "Look: people, to some extent, get the government they deserve. If the government is racist, maybe it's because the population is racist"

Treating people as members of populations instead of individuals is one of the characteristics of a racist. At least twenty-something percent of the voting public didn't endorse the racist measure and don't deserve the racist government.

If more people had been unafraid to explain the racist aspect of this referendum then I'm sure many more people would have voted against it.

Apart from that no one deserves this government and even if they deserved it, then it doesn't do you or me or them any good that they get it.

by arthur Thu Aug 26, 2004 03:23

I agree Fergus ,ignorance is the problem that is endemic in our society today,its like hunger in the midst of plenty.The majority of people who have never left Ireland were never exposed to even the education of the road and have missed out a great deal on experiencing what its like to have ones back to the wall in a foreign country.
Most thinking people know that colour is a genetically inherited condition attributed to exposure to climatical enviorement conditions on earth.
What is really puzzling is that responsible persons and bodies like the Gov ,Schools and Churches dont spell out the facts of reality that are now verifiable ,that we have a common ancestry.The advances in DNA techonology especially mitochondrial DNA is able to trace human origns and their migratory paths from Africa ,which means our earth mother was almost certainly black.
If we are going to embrace the future there needs to be a change in attitude of those in power to ensure ugly racilist heads dont rise
as they are attempting to in parts of this Island almost daily.

by Ois - WSM-Workers' Solidarity Movement Thu Aug 26, 2004 02:37

Come on. No-one is racist to begin with no body is born racist. No prejudices are natural they develop due to social conditioning. So to say that blaming racism in our society is a product of our society is hardly a crazy claim to make. And what is our society it is, in essence, a capitalist society, an important part (although not a necessary part) of which is the state-apparatus and the nationalist ideology that justifies it.

To say that the government (the executive and legaslative element of the state) is free of blame is ridiculous. To make moralistic claims that Bertie is a racist might also be ridiculous, but to claim that Bertie and the government do not play a very major role in reproducing and enforcing capitalist social relations is shear fantasy.

The Government is to blame, capitalism is to blame - Irish Society (of today) is to blame.

As for the claim that there is some inconsistency in rejecting politics that expound class segmentation (i.e Racism) while accepting explicitly pro working class politics (such as Anti-Bin Tax activity) that teach the common interests of the global working class (For example, Anti-War Activity) and the self-emancipatory capacities of the working class (the use of DA as a tactic) - well it's clearly silly. A sillyness that is most probably due to a mistaken belief in the 'Irish People's' homogeneity. Profit-earners have different interests to Wage-earners.

It is in the interest of profit earners to make Irish workers compete against immigrant workers, because labour costs will go down and with that profits will go up. It is in the interests of wage-earners to unite and make demands for less work and more pay. Two very different interests - two very different classes.

So as long as this class system exists, or any other class system for that matter, it will be in the interests of the ruling class to ensure the segmentation of the subjected class. Racism is a result of the class division of society, and can not be got rid of permanetly until a classless society is built.

by Fergus Wed Aug 25, 2004 22:18

“Sure, the government and media scapegoat immigrants. Why do people swallow it so easily? Because they're racist to begin with.”


Because they're racist to begin with?
Maybe,
But I reckon racism is ignorance
racism = ignorance
So I think one effective way to tackle racism is that you stamp out ignorance



Fair play for writing the main article

But I think a more effective way to tackle racism/ignorance is to
SPECIFICALLY
expose the govt/capitalist lies blaming immigrants.

by dube Wed Aug 25, 2004 22:04

And unfortunately there are a lot of racist (albeit "soft") Iirsh people out there, as the referendum proved.

--
But there is a “soft” racism out there. The Yes vote said that some children are less equal than others - because of where their parents come from. To treat someone worse because of their race is racism. It’s that simple.

by chris Wed Aug 25, 2004 20:32

Blah, blah. As usual, everything that is wrong with society is the fault of "the government". It's not people's own fault that they're racists. It's "the government", "the media".

Look: people, to some extent, get the government they deserve. If the government is racist, maybe it's because the population is racist and that's the government they want. How does Burlesconi get elected? How get Haider get elected?

The rule of thumb is this: When the masses exhibit any characteristics that are good - say, taking direct action on the bin tax issue - this is pointed to as evidence that the masses are enlightened and can manage their own lives. On the other hand, when the masses exhibit a characteristic that is bad - say, they are racist - this is the fault of the government. Whenever anyone has any belief that is misguided, ignorant, or stupid, this is the fault of the government. No one ever does anything bad or has any wrong beliefs. And if they do, it's not their fault.

Sure, the government and media scapegoat immigrants. Why do people swallow it so easily? Because they're racist to begin with.

The left has really got to get off this blaming everything on the government. It's tiresome. People think for themselves, and in Ireland, unfortunately, they think in a racist fashion.

by Kelvin Wed Aug 25, 2004 19:49

Doh!!! Except many (though, admittedly, not all) neocons DO favour looser borders which have the effect of flooding the domestic markets and devaluing labour. (Didn’t ya hear of the Amnesty the Bush admin has extended to legalise illegals in the U.S) Many on the impudent and unwashed left are similar in their opposition to immigration controls.
It seems that leftist thought is incapable in dealing with the fact that neoconservatism has a strong component of what were erstwhile 1960s-formed leftist ideas.
If a neocon is a (American) Liberal whose been mugged by reality then it seems that many on indymedia are still in an ideologically retarded state. Although I’d dread to think the effect a ‘reality mugging’ might have on here. Although it might just teach some humility and manners!

by Starstruck Wed Aug 25, 2004 19:48

Above comment in response to HT.
My apologies Csna C.

by Starstruck - UCD Left Grassroots Activist Wed Aug 25, 2004 19:46

So Indymedia has an anti-Irish agenda eh?
Just because the headlines on this site dont read-"Eat spuds!,Go to Mass!,Play GAA! and Vote Yes! doesnt mean that the contributors are Anti-Irish.
What most Indymedia users are is Anti-Racist.
And unfortunately there are a lot of racist (albeit "soft") Iirsh people out there, as the referendum proved.
If you read the excellent article above again,what you will note is not an "anti-democratic" tone of argument.
The author is detailing how,in our country,the leaders used and continue to use immigrants as a ready excuse for their own failures in Government.
It proved to be an easy line to sell to the disenchanted masses aided by the corporate media of course.
No true democratic government would act in such an underhanded,manipulative and cowardly manner.

by C sna C Wed Aug 25, 2004 18:57

Nothing neo-con about pointing out the hypocrisy of open markets and cash flow being the central thrust of contemporary capitalism while simultaneously strengthening borders and racism -except to simpletons like kelvin. The rich will always import as much cheap labour as they want when they want and change the immigration laws to suit.

by kelvin Wed Aug 25, 2004 13:54

Excellent Neo-Conservative, pro-immigration, Globalist argument! Something which is what you ‘anti-establishment’ lefties are (unwittingly) fighting to enable.You really should have more pride that be their ’useful idiots’.

by C sna C Wed Aug 25, 2004 13:34

Why not? Money and capital is allowed to circulate freely between countries so why not people.

by HT Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:58

Yet more helpings of indymedia’s Anti-Irish drivel. Accept the views of the People or be seen as the anti-Democratic crackpots that you actually are!!!!
(expect to be deleted can we comerade Stalin?)

by Anon Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:29

I helped campaign against the citizenship referendum, and I must have come across hundreds of people who took the racist bait because its the easy option. They're not angry. They've never been attacked or harmed in any way by an immigrant, let alone a pregnant immigrant and her child. But when given the chance to scapegoat minorities for Ireland's failure to provide a proper health service and immigration service, they'll gladly take part.

I say "Ireland's failure" because it can't be blamed only on the government. The suckers who elected the government, knowing full well what they're like, share the blame. And they know it. And that's why the turnout to vote against the rights of children born to immigrant parents was so great. Sure, there are some people no doubt you couldn't have known what sort of a government they were voting for, but most of those people aren't old enough to sit in the front passenger seat of a car, let alone vote.

by Jehovah Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:29

Cerrunnos?--what border did you cross to get here?---ancient Gaul?

by Cermunnos Wed Aug 25, 2004 04:43 cancerll at yahoo dot com

And the Marxist view of history as a oppressed/oppressor duelism continues.

Why dont you just admit you want no borders? to have borders is to discriminate in the first place in case you had not noticed.