Cycle Campaigners renew call for "cycle track network" plans to be scrapped

by Ray Tue Mar 02, 2004 16:47

The Nazi comparison doesn't do you any favours. I'm sure you're not trying to say that city councilllors are Nazis, but anyone reading the release is going to wonder why you brought them up. The argument works just as well without those two sentences.

by Cycler Tue Mar 02, 2004 17:36

Shane, keep up the good work. It really is vital. Thanks.

by R Isible Tue Mar 02, 2004 17:49

The complete mismanagement of the cycling situation in Ireland has been ably dissected by the GCC who have highlighted many of the dangerous new road designs including roundabouts and "cycle lanes".

I do agree with Ray though about keeping the nazis out of it. On a previous thread someone pointed out that nazis are invoked by both sides in the tobacco wars. Generally invoking them proves nothing and accelerates the erosion of rational discussion. In fact there used to be a "law" on Usenet called "Godwin's Law" which declared that any thread was over as soon as Adolf or nazis were mentioned because it was inevitable that the thread would become meaningless from that point onwards.

The GCC is already providing material that many will find counter-intuitive (cycle lanes are actually dangerous) and it would be best to appear as mainstream and rational in all other respects as possible so that those important facts are focussed upon instead of what is merely an illustrative example. (As an aside apparently when publishers want to sell a paperback they try to use some or all of a the following elements: nazi symbols, naked women, weapons. Bonus points are obtained for nazi weapons).

by kokomero Tue Mar 02, 2004 18:05

The important point Shane is making is that "the specific intent was to promote increased use of private motor-cars by clearing cyclists off the streets".

This is perhaps not the intent of the cycle-track program but it is obviously the effect when the number of cyclists drops by 16%.

Cycle tracks and bus lanes are no guarantee of safety however as I found to my cost last year when I was knocked off my bike by a car while in the bus-lane on Pearse St., luckily I was wearing a cycle-helmet!

by steve (avid cyclist) Tue Mar 02, 2004 18:26

I dont think it makes sense to say that the provision of cycle facilities is a attempt to worsen the situation of the cyclist at the benefit of the motorist. The motorist is being squeezed into smaller and smaller channels (with its impact on travel times, increased pollution etc) by the development of cycle/bus-lanes and luas etc. Yet there is no effort at the planning level to prevent the types of spatial/settlement development that locks people into car dependancy whether they like it or not.

The issue of poor design is an odd one because much of the guidlines are taken from 'perfect' scenarios that dont account for the types of haphazard road systems that exist in Dublin (systems that cant change without knocking down houses etc.). Cycling is the most sustainable mode of transport within high density models of settlement - which is the opposite to what we have.

i would also question the method of survey to reach a figure of a 16% reduction in cyclists - can you show the source and account for other commuter flows etc. The continual extension of bike parking facilities that soon get used up would suggest otherwise

by Seamus Brennan Tue Mar 02, 2004 19:42

You can't win with these idiots.. You dont' give any cycle leanes and they give out, build cycle lanes and they give out. What exactly do you people want!!??

by kokomero Wed Mar 03, 2004 09:54

For the convenience of the motorist, not the cyclist. The motivation. Taking cyclists out of the main car traffic flow allows car traffic to move more quickly.

Traffic moving more quickly and turning left across the cycle lane at corners increases the number of accidents as motorists "left hook" cyclists when trying to beat them to the corner.

Believe me I have first hand experience of it, you obviously have not!

We should be encouraging more bicycles by designating the city centre for bikes, pedestrians and public transport only, and building real cycleways, not useless yellow paint on the side of a busy road that motorists, busses and taxis park in or cross into whenever the feel like it.

by mr. rothar Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:10

If ye want people to use their bikes in Dublin there is an urgent need for more secure parking facilities.

Unless something has radically changed since I left Dublin, it must be one of the worst places in Europe for bike nicking .......

The stories I could tell .......

by steve Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:04

the 'left hook' is nothing to do with the fact there are cycle lanes but more to do with impatient and inconsiderate drivers. The same would happen if there were no cycle lanes. You would also find the continually clear stretches of road where there are cycle lanes being encroached upon like the stretches of road without cycle lanes.

While its a nice little idea to think you could have a city functioning only with bicycles but it is an unworkable model on any large scale. You may patch up a small scratch but your still left with a huge problem of forced car dependancy, mobility for the elderly, sick, emergency services etc. Instead of moaning about a provision that has improved the situation for many cyclists why not attack the spatial planning fiasco that has made people car dependant without choice

by Mr Mr Soya Bean Man Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:12

Is there any point in compiling a 'dirty dossier' of the worst-designed bits of cycle lane in the country? With photographs, naturally.

In the suburbs, where the tracks aren't as necessary, they seem to function fine (especially as car parks), but in the city centre they are totally random.

In other countries (oh aren't they great out foreign) they try to incorporate the cycle lane into the pavement, but here they are just painted on the road, so there is no incentive for cars to keep off.

by kokomero Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:46

the faster cars are driven the less reaction time available (primarily to the cyclist as motorists don't seem to care until you're sprawled on the road) hence the higher the frequency of "left hook" collisions.

by silo Wed Mar 03, 2004 14:00

"Is there any point in compiling a 'dirty dossier' of the worst-designed bits of cycle lane in the country? With photographs, naturally."

that's a good idea. we could also have a few examples of well-designed cycle lanes, because they do exist.

to get the ball rolling and all that...

bad: the absurdly tokenistic cycle lanes going through donnybrook village.

good: the road leading towards inchicore village from outside imma.

this could perhaps be moved onto a bulletin board: anyone know of a good one for this kind of discussion?

by Andrew Wed Mar 03, 2004 14:32

I'm not too sure about this. Some cycle lanes are shit. Some do help quite a bit.

I cycle 10k to work everyday and pass through Ranelagh. I've passed through Ranelagh most days for over 15 years.

Pre-cycle lane it was hell as the cars went right up to the curb so you either waited in the traffic, went up on the path (bad) or went down the wrong side of the road dodging oncoing traffic (mad). Plus once a year I was knocked off my bike by someone in a parked car opening a door without looking first.

With the cycle lane for most of the route there is no problem (they have put in STUPID car parking spaces in the lane on a corner after shopkeepers demanded this). You can cycle all the way through without being mad or bad. Plus I've not been knocked off the bike by a car door in five years. (I suspect the lane markings make them more aware that their might be an oncoming bike).

Some cycle lanes are unusable and even dangerous (the Stillorgan duel carrageway one is almost funny). But others are useful in keeping a channel open for bikes. Cars might go faster in theory but at the times most of us are going to and from work a bike goes a lot faster providing the cars are not all the way into the kerb. The problem is that cars often do squeeze into the lanes to try and move faster in the bumper to bumper jams.

In terms of the inter cyclist debate this seems to have a lot to do with what speed you want to move at. If like me you dawdle along on the way to and from work the lanes are on balance good. If you are a courier and need to get from A to B fast and often then their are probably quite restrictive.

Point 2.
I had a look at the years by years stats and the '16% drop' is a product of the years selected as a start and end point. If you ended in 2001 the drop would be tiny. If you just took 2002 and 2003 you could argue that the number of cyclists was increasing.

If anything the total stats would suggest a consistent fall in the number of cyclists recorded from the start (1988) and that the introduction of cycle lanes slowed down this rate of fall quite a bit.

by duine Wed Mar 03, 2004 15:58

Ná mill an nóisean.
Sábháileacht is réidhrothaíocht is bun le conaireacha ar leith.
Íslú líon rothaithe? Tá daoine níos gustalaigh agus tá an chontúirt ó fheithclí eile ag dul i méid.
Samhlaíocht ó thaobh deartha is leagan na gconaireacha is gá is fís mhór.

by Shane - Galway Cycling Campaign Wed Mar 03, 2004 18:30 galwaycyclist at yahoo dot co dot uk

Re: a place to discuss inappropriate and dangerous cycle facilities or even those that "work" and why. (initial posts are moderated)

ie-cycling email discussion list.
ie-cycling-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

The subject matter is using the bicycle as a mode of transport in Ireland.

This list is for those who are interested in making life better for anyone who cycles on Irish roads. It is not restricted to members of the Cork, Dublin, or Galway Cycling Campaign: it is open to all interested individuals.

Cyclists have the right to, should expect, and be prepared to demand, safe accommodation as vehicle operators on EVERY Irish road.

****************
Keep the comments coming

by Phuq Hedd Wed Mar 03, 2004 23:07

I think Andrew hits on some good points above, but it's not just messengers that want to ride fast. I can easily keep up with and outpace traffic on my roadbike in the city center and I don't like being shunted in to the side by MANDATORY bike lanes. They lead to an increase in the left-hook problems that Kokomero talked about. I've distinctly seen this change happen.

The purpose of bike lanes is generally to get bikes in out of the way of cars. Their acceptance and adoption is likely to lead to the bicycle losing its status as a vehicle entitled to travel on all roads. Fondness for them is highest among non-cyclists and weekend wobblers.

Instead of bicycle lanes I'd like to see congestion charges introduced for the city, lots more cycle cops out riding in a lane and ticketing dangerous motorists, a cap of maximum vehicle speeds within the city to 20mph and lots more sheltered, supervised bicycle parking.

by steve Thu Mar 04, 2004 02:26

they seem like a good idea but the people driving the big mercs and beemers can well afford to pay - not so good for the elderly or the less well off. Anyway, Dublin couldnt install congestion charges because of the lack of a widely available alternative to private transport - I know that dublin city council looked into it but it was dropped for this reason. London could because of the extensive alternatives available. Get out of the mindset that every person has the capacity to cycle to work etc. it just isnt going to happen. Your looking at the wrong issues for the solution to the problem.



(low density sprawl and forced car dependancy etc.)

by Andrew Thu Mar 04, 2004 13:01

I can see the arguement for existing lanes being badly desigend and even dangerous. I'm not convinced the left hook problem is made worse except that the extra space increases the chance of overtaking (on the inside) a car that is turning left and the driver not realising you are doing so. This can be a problem with the driver (no indicator) or with the cyclist (overtaking a car that is indicating).

But I don't get the opposition to cycle lanes full stop. The reality of the situation is that your average car weighs in at about 750kg+ and your average bike+cyclist at 10% of this. The car driver is surrounded by an elaborate safety cage, the cyclist could not be more exposed.

There is a Chinese proveb. 'If the stone falls on the jug it is bad for the jug. If the jug falls on the stone it is bad for the jug". For a cyclist in the middle of a stream of cars a collision will always be worse for the cyclist.

What you call weekend wobblers probably like cycle lanes for this reason. Probably anyone trying to cycle in the city for the first time would prefer a decent cycle lane to mixing it with the cars, trucks and buses. Some experienced cyclists, maybe most experienced cyclists, may not prefer this because they prefer to rely on their own luck/skill.

But if you interest is a broader political one of replacing cars with cyclists then it would seem to make sense to favour the needs of the newcomers and what you call weekend wobblers over the fearless cycling warriors. And this would seem to involve not opposing cycling lanes but demanding safe ones and the changes in road safety legislation that would be required to eliminate other problems.

I have cycled in two cities with good cycle lanes, Amsterdam (where you often have a seperate traffic light for bikes) and Copenhagen. Both of these felt immeasurably safer then Dublin even though I had to cycle on the 'wrong' side of the road. And given the number of people who use bikes their to bring young kids to school the accident rate has to be lower.

by James Fri Mar 05, 2004 01:59

As a regular cyclist (and ex-courier [reasonably sane faction]), I reckon that the cycle lanes around Dublin centre are a good improvement for cyclists. It makes cycling easier and more relaxing. For example the lane on the north quays, the Rathmines and ranelagh ones and the improved stilorgan lane are all worth having.

Sure from a messenger's or speedy gonsalez's perspective the lanes give less excuse for doing more risky manouevres than was the case. But on the whole the Corpo is moving in the right direction and I wouldn't like to see the construction of lanes halted. Even faulty ones can be improved and can be ignored if particularly stupid. That may have repurcussions if there's an accident and I'd agree that their compulsary nature should be changed.

The Dublin Cycling Campaign deserve thanks for their input over the years as well.