South belfast Neo nazis threaten Socialist party leafleters

by kokomero Wed Feb 11, 2004 16:23

The fact that they have reacted at all means that you are causing them trouble on the ground. Secondly in contrast to their previous victims from ethnic minorities whom they did not hesitate to attack physically they chose to attack you verbally over the phone rather than a face-to-face confrontation. This is also good and would suggest that they are afraid to take you on in the street. Keep up the good work!

by observer Wed Feb 11, 2004 16:23

Why don't the SP use their good offices with Billy Hutchinson to have these "NF" people stopped?

by bopsie Wed Feb 11, 2004 17:08

Nadia , you really should stop being so sectarian .

by At Last! Wed Feb 11, 2004 17:42

Good to see the SP sticking up posters and leaflets after the attacks have stopped. Pity they didn't feel the need to get involved or do anything when the attacks were actually happening?

While the attacks were at their height and ARN members and their homes where being physically attacked for organising, speaking out and taking to the streets. The SP where nowhere to be seen. Better late than never I suppose. At least now, eventually, they are starting to do something whereas there is still some doing nothing.

With the physical racist attacks for the time being ceased, the Belfast branch of the BNP disbanded and the leader of the loyalist paramilitary organisation responsible stood down it now offers the opportunity and breathing space for others who were not involved in the ARN to now to get involved or do something themselves as the SP are now attempting to do.

I wouldn't worry about phone calls two members on the ARN alone have received over 100 from all sorts in the past few weeks, but if things get more sinister then solidarity will be offered.

by Smash them on the Streets Wed Feb 11, 2004 18:25

Please next time they ring them..ask them to bring their white pride allies and meet us in a convenient quiet place where we can test out their theories on the master race....

Hang them high..gas all Nazis..bring them on

by Mark - Socialist Worker Wed Feb 11, 2004 18:29

Stop this sectarianism.
This shouldn't be turned into an attack on the SP. Less of the moralism, if they're handing out anti-racist or anti-facist leaflets, then that should be commended. All on the left have a duty to stick together on this one.

If you have a tactical disagreement then surely you should state this more clearly.



Mr/Ms "What",
Lazy grammar makes the message more difficult to read:

"... SHOULD OF SORTED THIS OUT"

Shoul read: " Should have..."

by Observer Wed Feb 11, 2004 19:21

Is this on the lines of "bullies stole my homework"???

by socialist Wed Feb 11, 2004 20:31

Thanks for all the support.
It is good to know that when people are under attack from the BNP/WNP that this is the level of support to be expected.
See you all soon on a street in Belfast

by Cynic Wed Feb 11, 2004 20:34

And there was me thinking that they had a right to walk the queen's highway, doing what they liked.

by observer Wed Feb 11, 2004 20:34

You will receive the same support which you gave to the nationalist victims of those who are now allegedly attacking you over the phone.

by basil Faultey (Farty Towels) Wed Feb 11, 2004 23:46

.

by socialist Thu Feb 12, 2004 00:31

I do mean it folks! The comments here have been very useful. It has saved many hours of discussion.

by pym unfortunate Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:16

I think you will find that many people prefer the company of Socialist party members to Herr Hitler and BNPsex offenders.

In the popularity stakes, Socialist party members have a substantial lead on goosestepping jodpur wearing, seig heiling Adolf lovers.

by Good to see Thu Feb 12, 2004 13:39

As I had stated whatever people think of the SP and of their past and present in the North they are now at least doing something against racism in general

It is not a question of moralism Mark or even a question of tactics but simply as a socialist or a socialist organisation we should be at the forefront in the battle against such attacks right from the start.

In this case many were not and this is important to state as lessons have to be learnt for the larger battles ahead in which we can both work in and also show solidarity.

Therefore was non involvement for political reasons or for tactically reasons from whaterever left organisations , these issues are important within any left or socialist organisation. As importantly though it will also be benificial to know were each other stands as it would make it easier to work together.

Such questions do need addressed not under the banner on moralism but under the banner of political reality. Therefore should not be brushed aside for a big love in which will be built on sand due to lack of clarity

by bbb Thu Feb 12, 2004 16:50

The UVF has "stood down" the notorious South Belfast commander who is alleged to have sanctioned the recent spate of racially-motivated attacks in the Village area of Belfast.

The move comes after UVF denials of any involvement in the ongoing racist campaign and amid growing speculation that race may not have been the sole motivating factor in the attacks.

It has been suggested that the assaults may be linked to a recent court case in which a number of individuals connected to the unionist paramilitary group were due to stand trial on extortion charges. A Chinese businessman was due to testify against those charged earlier this year, but the charges had to be dropped when the businessman suddenly withdrew his evidence.

It is understood that the UVF leader who was "demoted" is one of a number of people to be "disciplined" following an internal probe by the loyalist group.

Responding to the reports, Anti-Racism Network spokesperson Sara Boyce said her group will now be seeking guarantees that this would mean an end to the racist attacks on minority ethnic communities in South Belfast.

"The challenge now," says Boyce, "is for ordinary people and leaders in the Village to work together with minority ethnic groups and others to build respect for cultural diversity."

by socialist Fri Feb 13, 2004 00:20

Comments here are a joke? i dont think so. I think this thread reflects the real thinking of many people on the 'left'.
Good to see some comments in suppport of people under attack, equally good to have a clear picture of the thinking of others, this goes a long way in explaining the different political ideas on the Irish left.

by Very Disappointed Fri Feb 13, 2004 03:16

I used to watch the news and after every murder, direct or indirect, you'd see a politician of the victim's assumed persuasion making their little comments. It used to make me sick that they would hijack a time of grief for the families. Basically, that wee feeling of despair we'd all get for five minutes before we changed the channel was then rerouted into political emersion.

I don't mean to offend SP supporters, but these are cynical days. To support victims of racism as a political party just smells the same to me now.

Perhaps the difference would be to have something done. Deeds not words (even on pamphlets)etc. And I know that takes time and progress, but until then, cynicism has to be accepted. As an everyday working class person, I have to tell you, if you want honesty I think the SP is micky mouse and doesn't represent me anymore than the rest of them.

by socialist Fri Feb 13, 2004 09:08

Did someone mention 'united front'?

by last tango in leper st Sat Feb 14, 2004 00:17

A recently published survey by the South belfast partnership exposed the underlying illogical excuse for recent racist attacks in the Donegall rd area.
Local backward village area bigots believe there is an campaign of backdoor forced integration going on, whereby the HE, and others rent accomodation to ethnic minorities on purpose,(as if anyone in their right mind, or with foresight/local area knowledge, would want to deliberately live in the villlage area), and then ethnic minorities in turn would allow/tolerate taigs/catholics to move into their streets.
It appears that the population of the village are very christian when it comes to tolerating for years paedophile child vice ring master Roy Green operating a brothel in Donegall ave, but heaven forbid if gormless ethnic minorities or catholics should set foot in the village.

by Chris Henry - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Sat Feb 14, 2004 09:50 lavosfanfiction at hotmail dot com Belfast 07743478920

With some of the usual political sectarianism blighting this page, I believe it is perhaps necessary to highlight a few points in regard to this whole issue.

Firstly, the SP have not simply decided to start fighting racism in the past couple of weeks. This has been an important issue for us for months. I'm not going to turn this into the usual macho bullshit about "how many times have I been threatened", but just in regard to my personal activities I have the pleasure of being referred to on the WNP website, in regard to my "address". I don't reside in the area anymore, but I can guarantee that it's there for a reason.

Secondly : As for a previous person referring to the homes of ARN activists being attacked, I only know of one particular person (who will not be named here), and she was extremely critical of the actions of the ARN in giving her very little support at this time. This will be known by anyone who was present at the meeting in question, and it was included in the minutes. This is not a sectarian rant - I am a member of the ARN's steering committee and work alongside them, but I believe using this example to attempt to bolster the ARN's reputation is quite frankly a little off. Perhaps this person does not have their information straight. Mistakes have been made, and organisations fighting fascism and racism must learn from them in order to better themselves.

I personally have also held meetings and stalls within the QUB campus also on this subject, well before the establishment of the ARN, as well as leafleted the area. The only reason I mention the ARN incidentally is not to criticise them, but rather to answer the point that I and other members of the SP have been "doing nothing" since this particular organisation was established. This is not an issue that can or should result in political sectarianism. However, this is not to say that we should not engage in civilised debate regarding how to push the issue forward.

As for the issue itself, we are certainly involved now, and will continue to be in the future. We have recently launched "Youth Against Racism", linked to Youth Against Racism in Europe (YRE), in order to mobilise an effective force to fight fascists, and I personally will be going into schools right across Northern Ireland over the next few weeks and months to talk to schoolpupils and set up branches within these schools, as a first step to mobilising people on a mass scale. This, I acknowledge, is only a first step, but I believe it is an important one, and I daresay most on the left will welcome this step. As for YAR, more plans are afoot, and for more info see my number.

Youth Against Racism stalls are also being held every Saturday, and SP stalls held during the week. The SP and YAR are taking this extremely seriously, make no mistake. I believe most on the left will welcome this, but I daresay there will be a minority of the usual cyber-warriors who feel the need to churn out the usual sectarian nonsense. But at least the rest of us are fighting this issue and taking it seriously, eh boys and girls?;)

If anyone wants to give me a shout and discuss any of this in more detail, feel free to give me a call. (But no fascists please, we're socialists!)

by a guy called satan Sat Feb 14, 2004 15:44

Chris , The people who you consider to be politically sectarianare just being realistic.They simply don't believe that the SP will seriously do anything to oppose racism in Belfast . For years nationalists have had to endure sectarian attacks from the same elements that are now carrying out racist attacks. What was the response of the Socialist Party? When republicans defended catholics from attack from loyalist murder gangs the SP put an equals sign betweens loyalists and republicans.The state sponsored loyalist campaign was essentially racist - it was anti Irish .The Socialist Party's spurious use of the word "sectarian" whenever they referred to the provo campaign gave a left cover for loyalist death squads' claims to be defending " protestant working class" areas.

by Very Disappointed Sat Feb 14, 2004 18:45

Thanks for your post Chris. After reading I have to say I respect what the SP are doing and intend to continue doing. On this issue I wish them all every success in the world.

But as for those individuals hijacking other people's trauma and claiming 'we were victims too and you did nothing' - You obviously have no understanding or experience of living as a foreigner in a state that abuses and disempowers by racism. Newsflash: You are not a victim of racism. You have a mainstream community and culture, with language and tastes and traditions. You have your movements; your voice. You have a claim on this land and a place at the table. These people don’t. This issue is racism, not sectarianism.

And while the Loyalists may be the most recent criminals, do some research and see just how racist Ireland as a whole was and is. Shame on you for your grossly selfish, blatantly ignorant, hypocritical attitudes! Shame on you for deciding to be part of the problem by aligning yourself in ignorance to a disgraceful national history of racist atrocity! For insulting those who have suffered racism with your false empathy and slighting those who sincerely attempt, even in a small way to become a future solution.

I’m tired of hearing Irish nationalism equated with socialism when its founding principles state bluntly that the socialist is an international. Are you ready to lay down your National pride for socialism? Or to ignore your politics completely under anarchy? Then don’t equate yourself with these ideals. And definitely, please, don’t think you have a legitimate accusation to make towards socialists for supporting people, irrespective of whether they are Protestant, Catholic or Minority when that’s exactly what they are meant to do!

by john throne - labors militant voice Mon Feb 16, 2004 07:38 loughfinn at aol dot com

The lessons for the working class of the last century include the need for working class and left and anti capitalist forces to stand together as a united front against facism and racism. It is a sobering reminder of how far the movement has been thrown back when we can read the vicious attacks on the SP by others who present themselves as lefts when the SP is under attack from racists and facists. Irregardless of any differences of tactics and policy with the SP anybody who claims to be on the left or on the side of the working class has to defend the SP against the racists and facists. I have serious differences with the SP, I have serious unfinished business with the SP and the CWI, I will continue to put forward my positions and differences, but at the same time I support the SP campaigning against facism and racism and in any way I can i will stand with them against the facist and racist threats.

I would like to raise another issue that is posed by this thread and many other threads. Unfortunately indymedia has many contributors who engage in the most vicious and unprincipled abuse and it in many cases total nonsense. The danger with this is that it tends to discredit indymedia. However indymedia is potentially a powerful weapon for the working class and anti capitalist movement which cannot be allowed to be taken from us. If the sort of sectarian and vicious abuse that some contributors post to this thread comes to dominate the indymedia then the tendency will be for serious activists to turn away and not use indymedia. This would weaken the movement. I think that something should be done about this. I propose that the following measure be taken to stop this happening.

I propose that all who post to indymedia have to use their name. I do not accept the arguments I have heard before that people post from their work and would get into trouble with their boss, that people get abused by others on the email, that the state would get peoples names. Anybody who is active in the movement has to appear at their union meeting, their anti war committee, their anti water charges committee, their anti sexist committee, their anti racist committee etc etc. All these are open to the eyes of the state apparatus and in all these their will be debate and criticism and attacks. In other words in the real movement people can and inevitably will be identified criticised and yes abused. Intervening on a thread on indymedia has to be seen as similar to being active in the movement.

Would any of the workers or activist committees referred to above allow people to attend their meetings and hide their faces and identities and make speeches and condemn others. Of course they would not. This would be unthinkable. Then why should they be allowed to do this on indymedia. To bring indymedia into line with the needs of the working class and anti capitalist movement people should not be allowed to contribute unless they identify themselves. Of course people can make up a name, people can invent an organization and say this is the source of their post, but this is not an argument against my proposal. Making all who post itentify themselves would change the atmosphere and tone on indymedia and in the new atmosphere and tone it would be very very simple to tell who was using a false identiy and who was not.

So I propose that to make the indymedia a tool that the working class and anti capitalist movement can use to its full potential that all who post on it are required to identify themselves. In my opinion this would very quickly change the tone of discussion and debate dramatically for the better. For those who feel that this would seriously threaten them then nobody forces them to post and of course anybody who is active in struggle in any arena then they have to identify themselves anyway. See how the Comrade on this thread who is active in the anti racism campaign and a member of the SP gives his identity. Why should others be allowed to attack this person and hide their identity.

I propose that all who post to indymedia are required to identify themselves.

John Throne.

by anon Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:26

John
its not just the good people who read this stuff.

by Belfaster info Mon Feb 16, 2004 15:19

I know Chris and he and the SP did become involved in the ARN a few days before the ARN rally on Jan 27th. He and the SP at their first meeting when put to the floor put Chris forward for the steering committee. This is good.

There have been a number of incidents apart from the one Chris states. This though long before the SP and chris 's involvement a few weeks ago, where members and supporters of the ARN had been attacked. Chris's point on the woman being very critical of the ARN inactions while correct, Chris though fails to mention the reason for it, as was discussed in depth at the meeting.

That is, that the woman passed on the message to one member of the ARN from east Belfast that paint was put on her wall, and that person failed to pass the info on to anybody else. Therefore the ARN could not deal with it as they did not know about it until that meeting. With the person who had been informed not attending that meeting also..

Chris was fully aware of this and I believe if the story is to be told then it should be the full story.

As Chris is also aware practical points were put into play so this cannot arise again, with the woman concerned active still and on also ARN sub Committees.

As for verbal threats to Chris or anyone who is opposed to racism then we all have to stand together. Whatever stand anyone takes however big or small has to be welcomed. It is good to see also YAR beginning to attempt to get School students involved or if the SP have had a stall etc as we all have a part to play in this.

Political Sectarianism, imitation of others through name or indeed through style of writing, the giving of the whole picture, the telling of the real facts are all important to challenge or to give but ,such is the nature of Indymedia such can be abused. But despite that there are many more good points on Indymedia to outwiegh the bad.

by Unity is Strength Mon Feb 16, 2004 16:27

This arguement has shown us the weakness of the anti-racist struggle. There is a political imperative for us to build the united front in the face of political and personal divisions..black people and ethnic minority people do need the support of all anti-racists and anti-fascists.

However we wear our politics on our skins, being black is a full time occupation.

If we are serious about destroying the fascists and racists and combatting racism then then the petty arguements about tactics must be put aside now.

Lets get organised.

by pat c Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:34

Three injured in racist assault

Attacks on ethnic minority groups have increased. An attack on three men in south Belfast may have been racially motivated, the police have said. The men were set upon by four people in the Botanic area of the city at about 2330 GMT on Monday.

Sinn Fein assembly member for the area, Alex Maskey said that despite the recent anti-racism rally in Belfast, the city had much more work to do to combat the problem.

Full story at:

by Very Disappointed Thu Feb 19, 2004 18:53

Please consider that like me, many people will skim these pages as new onlookers and perhaps join you more actively if you let us know how. I admit that I represent only myself. For people in a similar position, perhaps it might be helpful if those who participle in groups would provide links to their organisations, with or w/out using personal identities?

I would love to become involved locally with groups that I could feel represented by. And I would be honoured to publicly declare my support for any anti-racist or non-violent activity, irrespective of political affiliation. This is only because at rallies over this last year, I experienced something that gave me hope again. Even though there were placards waving from different groups that I feel a million miles away from ideologically, it didn't matter. We had one reason to be there each time and that was all that mattered at that point.

by pat c Thu Feb 19, 2004 19:07

Anti-Fascist Action
http://www.geocities.com/irishafa/

Workers Solidarity Movement
http://struggle.ws/wsm/

Socialist Party
http://www.socialistparty.net/

Socialist Workers Party
http://www.swp.ie/

by Very Disappointed Fri Feb 20, 2004 01:41

Bookmarked, thanks.

by Chris Henry - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Fri Feb 20, 2004 20:12 lavosfanfiction at hotmail dot com Belfast 07743478920

I appreciate the comments made above by "belfaster info". At the meeting, ideas were put in place to rectify the situation with the aforementioned ARN activist - I myself gave a couple of suggestions as to how the ARN could better itself in regard to tactics, and hopefully those ideas will be put into practice.

The only reason that I didn't go into so much detail, was to outline the fact that a previous post - "At Last!" near the top of the page - seemed to use the attack itself as a way of attacking my party. I was not using this example as a way of attacking the ARN, as I have no interest in doing so. I was attempting to show up the mentality of this previous comment for what I believed it to be - an attempt to discredit my own political party. Racist attacks and victims of such attacks cannot be used simply as a political device - I belive I will leave such behaviour to our local MLAs.

I have no interest in hiding anything that has occured at any meeting, and I apologise if this seemed to be the case.

Incidentally, on another point, I entirely agree with John Throne's point in regard to Indymedia and the use of proper names. If people have to hide behind aliases in order to push their political opinions, I have a general believe that such people aren't so confident with their political opinions as they should be to perhaps pass judgement on others. Personally, I feel more comfortable talking to activists when I know their identity, and it gives me the opportunity to talk to people outside of the virtual world also. Although I do not use Indymedia much, I daresay I would use it more if I was aware of the real identities of users.

by Village resident Tue Sep 07, 2004 00:32

I think it is important for the media to stress that it is a very small minority of uneducated renegade terrorists who are attacking ethnic minorities. The media and many websites are quick to jump on the bandwagon and condemn the all residents of the Village area of Belfast. The Village area has been ignored by the governing bodies for a long time and it is important now that they take action, it is only when violence occurs that half-hearted calls for change are whimpered by politicans. Run down youth clubs that open for a couple of hours every other night are all there is for young people and when these places close there is nothing else for them to do except stand around street corners where they will be corrupted by the rogue elements within the community. They say education starts in the home, maybe decent modern housing would be an appropiate setting. I am not making excuses for these terrible attacks, i am merely pointing out that if the government were to put some solid positive input into the area, there would be alot more positive output.

by observer Tue Sep 07, 2004 09:48

As opposed to what ? - The majority of decent educated loyalists who just hate and attack Fenians?