The Winds of War

by skeptomaniac Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:17

Keep it simple stupid

by Jesus Christ - Hell Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:57

what's this... Ann and Barry do history and politics??? What if history never happened? what if what we think we know is slightly less than accurate? what if Hitler exists in all of us everywhere? what if we are all narrow minded racist monkeys? some with a guilty conscience, what then? I'll tell you what... Fuck knows when the war began and we can be sure it will never end. Take cover and hope for the best when it comes to a locale near you, as it did for 600 odd years. fight to defend your women and children like some monkeys do, realise fear is a terrible thing and hope that some greater force somewhere will take it away.

by Bob the Builder Thu Jan 22, 2004 13:33

Unfortunately not many people in the Western world have read their "Ann & Barry".
They seem to think that if their hysterical protests somehow ( how i don't know!) will succeed in unseating Bush and Blair and a socialist revolution will overthrow the so called "military industrial complex" that it follows that Islamic fundamentalists and fascists will stop their terrorism!

As I said we are stuck with war and war and the threat of war are theonly way international disputes are settled.

I've no doubt that in the 21st century the whole political landscape of the globe will change yet again as it did in ancient times when the Assyrians, Babylonians and Egyptians ruled the Middle East, when the Greece, Macedonia and Rome carved up the world. When Rome fell to the Barbarians and fuedal Christendom was established.
When the empires of Europe expanded to colonies the entire world.
When the industrial revolution and rivalry between the European powers brought about two World Wars.
When American Capitalism defeated Soviet Russia.
Now America of threatened by the new barbarians: Islamic terror.
Maybe the next world war will a fight between an emergent capitalist China against a weakening America?
Who knows?
But the future will NEVER be peaceful.
Peaceniks had better wake up to reality.

by pat c Thu Jan 22, 2004 13:51

you are obviously unaware of the terror campaign that the US has carried out since WWII. guatemala, chile, nicaragua, el salvador, argentina. all over the world the US has overthrown progessive governments and backed fascist regimes.

some of the chickens came home to roost on 9/11. ironically enough they were US created chickens. it was the CIA who trained and armed Osama.

by Bob The Builder Thu Jan 22, 2004 14:47

Are they going to throw up their hands and admit atrocities they commited while overthrowing communism in South America?
Do think they will pat Osama on the head for showing the errors of their ways in Afghanistan?
They'd rather kill him.

by pat c Thu Jan 22, 2004 14:51

chile had a democratic socialist govt, guatemala was just a liberal, even manleys social democratic govt in jamacia was undermined by the cia.

saddam & osama were created & armed by the US.

by Freddy Thu Jan 22, 2004 15:15

Don't forget the terrorist campaign the USA waged against Nicaragua in the eighties. Killing doctors, teachers etc.
You might claim that it was the 'Contras', but they would not have been able to terrorise Nicaragua without the active assistance of the USA.

by Bob The Builder Thu Jan 22, 2004 18:04

Yes indeed America used the Contras and funded them and used them to assassinate officals and others sympathetic to the Communist regimes in South America backed by Soviet Russia.
The Soviets and Chinese in a similar way competed to control the Viet Cong and this involved purges of its ruling body by factions loyal to either the Soviets or the Maoists while at the same time they co-operated to eliminate cadre of the ARVN or South Vietnamese army and government officials trained by the U.S.
In both South America and South East Asia the client organisations be they fascist or communist or moderate democrats gleefully played the U.S. and Soviets off against each other while they themselves fought their own ideological opposites!
In Afghanistan tribal leaders were often bought off by Russians or Americans or at the same time by both during the conflict after the Soviet invasion commenced in 1979.
Presently in 2004 tribal leaders who were loyal and supported the Taliban are working for the Americans because they pay well and at the same time are funded by Arab countries hostile to American influence.
In Northern Ireland during the height of the troubles there were individuals were triple agents working for the IRA, British Intelligence and the Gardai all at the same time.
In order to defeat enemies and to maintain their strategic advanatages everyone if is a whore.
Presently left wing groups in Europe who hate and despise Bush support Arabs who for entirely different reasons hate and despise Bush and regularly Left wingers march in solidarity with them even though in many Arab countries left wing organisations with liberal values are loathed just as much as Bush's conservative administration.
The always justifies the means!
Tribal leaders in Borneo who practised cannibalism and committed atrocities against their enemies were asked why they were so brutal and savage?
They replied they if they did not indulge in merciless combat with their enemies they would be overcome by merciless attack. They hadn't time for wishful thoughts about peace because no opportunity presented itself.

The question is not about subjective concepts such as "right" or "wrong" but "necessity".
What is this necessary for?
POWER!

by Pax Thu Jan 22, 2004 19:59

Bob the Builder you said

"Now America of threatened by the new barbarians: Islamic terror."

and

"Presently left wing groups in Europe who hate and despise Bush support Arabs who for entirely different reasons hate and despise Bush and regularly Left wingers march in solidarity with them even though in many Arab countries left wing organisations with liberal values are loathed just as much as Bush's conservative administration."

Are not these new barbarians the old barbarians the US supported?

To say that left wing organisations support the likes of Al Qaida is ridiculous. Al Qaida and other muslim groups like it are the muslim world's equivalent of Spains Franco who was a religous fundamentalist fascist but of the Catholic kind, likewise our very own Blue Shirts.

Al Qaida is basically an islamic fundamentalist fascist group who not only rule by their religion but opposse a free press, unions, democracy, liberty and anything you could call of the left.

Now imagine if an outside source had decided to fund, train and arm the Blueshirts because Ireland would be more malleable under a dictatorship, how messed up would this country be? Would the Blueshirts have been Al Qaida?

You seem to have a defeatist attitude that people are always cursed by war for power and that theirs no right or wrong. But human history and the civilization we live in today proves that this is not the case. Otherwise democracy would not have emerged in ancient Greece because each King would continue to be replaced after a war for power.
The same is the case for female emancipation, end to slavery and the creation of the welfare state.

The fact is change in society is not always necessitated by war or violence, through informed choice people see a better way.

by Bob the builder Fri Jan 23, 2004 21:59

The fact is change in society is not always necessitated by war or violence, through informed choice people see a better way.

The Romans were not constantly at war with the Goths, Vandals, Franks and Huns at the one time nor were these ethnic groups always united together in the fight against Rome. Rather Rome made allies with some of them and in fact trained them as auxiliaries in its Legions to fight the others when anyone of them rose against Rome. The Caesars this way ruled by “divide and conquer”.
However when Rome weakened the barbarian hordes no longer fearing extermination, instead of forming alliances of survival with the Caesars, banded together to divide Europe between them and so commenced the Dark Ages.

The new barbarians ARE the old barbarians the U.S. supported.

Left wing groupings in the West do not support Al-Qaida in an IDEOLOGICAL way nor do Al-Qaida tolerate Left wing thinking but Al-Qaida presumed that most Left wingers in America and Europe because of their decadence and squeamishness about fighting wars of attrition would not stomach a raising of the stakes – 9/11. The War on Terror is fight between the forces of fascist theocratic insanity and modern democratic liberalism. Obviously democratic liberalism is stronger as victory after victory demonstrates.
The Left are well able to TALK about freedom but unable or unwilling to ACT and enforce it
And Al-Qaida were right.
Afghanistan was a base of operations and training and recruitment for Al-Qaida with the puppet Taliban as their cover. Al-Qaida had the freedom to do as they pleased using opium and heroin to fund the terrorist attacks they were planning against America the same way as the attacks against Russian occupation were financed with the help of the CIA. The Americans knew exactly where to strike and destroyed the Al-Qaida network in Afghanistan.
At the moment the international network is being wound up as terrorist are either captured or killed.
There has not been one attack by Al-Qaida on American soil since 9/11 for this very reason.

As Al-Qaida predicted the American Right and Left bitterly at logger heads since the Vietnam War would be bitterly at loggerheads over The War on Terror. Left wingers do not believe in objective good and evil because they would say the Arabs have been oppressed and therefore use violence as their only weapon to fight the Right which controls American policy. Branding these terrorists as pure evil is a mistake. They believe that the problems can be sorted out by negotiation and that war brings more recruits to Al-Qaida. That is why they protest in the streets. They hate the idea of actually having to kill these terrorist so that no negotiations will be necessary.
America have two choices:

1. Negotiate and give legitimacy to Islamic fundamentalists who should be in mental hospitals and strengthen their campaign to bring liberty and freedom crashing down like the two towers on Sept 11 and establish a world governed by a Caliphate or Islamic rule.

OR

2. Kill them instead.

No.2 was the obvious choice.

Left wingers thought that 9/11 would make America act peacefully to its enemies as if “do onto others as you wish they would do to you” works in all circumstaces.

Post 9/11 is not such a circumstance

by Debra Winger Sat Jan 24, 2004 01:57

The great leaps forward in human development have always been precipitated by war. War is good for the human species. It removes doubt, uncertainty and best of all, corruption.

by Amused Sat Jan 24, 2004 04:47

That's nonsense, Debra. War is generally a result of corruption, and in this case you only have to look at the way the Bush cronies get all the juicy contracts to "rebuild" Iraq. Crime also rises in the years following a war.

by bob the builder Sat Jan 24, 2004 22:16

When a war is fought to advance justice for all human beings it is just.
The following were just wars:

The war against Napoleon was an example of all the nations of the Europe putting aside their differences ( be it for a time) to defeat tyranny.

The U.S. Civil War -
The scurge of slavery had to be ended.

World War 1 was justified although it cost a terrible toll in human lives because it stopped Germany from conquering the world against the will of other nations.

World War 2 was the most terrible war in human history but no price was too high in order to defeat Facism, Nazism and Japanese Imperialism.

The Cold War - Soviet expansion endangered the entire world.
Whereas America returned the territories it conquered in Europe and Asia to its people after 1945, Russia did not because it had designs on a world empire.
Every war between 1945 to 1992 where the U.S. forces were involved from Korea to Vietnam, South America etc. was all for one reason - to save the world from the tyranny of Soviet domination.

The War on Terror -
The backward nations of the world which still cling to theocracy, facism and communism have to be liberated from their tyrannical rulers who would try to destroy the civilised nations of the Earth
- the Taliban have come down as has Saddam.
Soon to go will be Colonel Quadaffi, Kim Jong IL, Fidel Castro and Yasser Arafat.

Let us kill our enemies until their is no enemy and PEACE!

by Dweezil Sun Jan 25, 2004 02:29

All of the wars the US has been involved in have been right and just, so is the current war on terror.

Iraq was a supporter of terrorism so it was a cancer that had to be excised.

USA!! USA!! USA!!

by barry Sun Jan 25, 2004 18:09

half arsed misunderstandings are history are more troublesome than outright lies. just as an example from above:

The napoleonic wars took place over the course of nearly half a century. They were a series of wars involving France which had their roots in the external interference in one of the largest and most successful social revolutions ever. The first few years of the revolution (early 1790s) brought enormous changes to the whole of French society with particular benifit to the poorest members who were freed of ruinsome rents and taxes. As centralised government was re-established, power struggles between the former dynastic elites and the newer revolutionary elites combined with the agents of territory obsessed foreign states led to factionalism and the rise of counter-revolution and repression. This "terror" continued until the new national fervour of the french people came to be embodied in one person, Napoleon. With the entire power of the state and the people being entirely militarised Napoleon proceeded to raise armies on a scale not previously seen in Europe(numbering into millions) and began a series of campaigns to enlarge France and her power.

A shifting series of alliances amongst all the great powers of the day ensued whilst armies were remodelled along Napoleonic lines and Napoleon I was eventually brought to a halt by another new tactic in warfare, the Russians destruction of their entire country as they fell back before the onslaught. Winter and lack of supplies destroyed Napoleons great army. A subsequent series of battles fought against armies modelled on his own lines destroyed his reign.

The Napoleonic wars continued as further French leaders(also Napoleons!) attemped to maintain Frances position within Europe.The shifting and unstable series of international alliances(with the austrian empire being probably the worst movers) continued until the Peace of Westphalia in 1850 when a new equilibrium was established between the European great powers(primarily the carving up of the german states into areas of influence).

This equilibrium lasted until the 1870s and the emergence of the militarised state of Prussia as the leader of and model for a new greater German state.

This pattern of shifting alliances, strategic and territorial interests and new devestating forms of warfare are present in most eras of war but they rarely teach it in history 101.

by history is bunk Sun Jan 25, 2004 19:55

People who support the USA don't need to clog up their brains with this kind of historical detail .... it could put them in risk of cerebral overload .....

They just need to be able to concentrate on the key facts:
America is GREAT !
America is RIGHT !
Whatever America does is GOOD !
That is all ye know on Earth and
ALL YE NEED TO KNOW ........

by Bob the builder Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:54

But you forgot one thing.

Saddam Hussein was evil.
Communism and Socialism are evil.
Facism is evil.
Imperialism and colonialism are evil.
The Tabliban was evil.

America was the force which brought these systems to an end.

Democracy is good.
Free speech is good.
Freedom is good.

America was the first nation to established them since Greece and the inspiration for the fall of authoritariansim everywhere.

Therefore America is GOOD.
It is the land of the free and the home of the brave.

by Thomas Jefferson Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:30

"America was the first nation to established them since Greece and the inspiration for the fall of authoritariansim everywhere.

Therefore America is GOOD.
It is the land of the free and the home of the brave."

Independence in America was won by a group of "terrorists" who were unwilling to be controlled by an imperial foreign force. Sound familar???

Thomas jefferson said "One man with courage is a majority. Well, I 'm sure all those suicide bombers would agree.............

by Righteous Pragmatist. Mon Jan 26, 2004 14:23

Don't dare compare cowardly suicide bombers who blow up innocent men women and children to the those brave men who founded the United States!

The War of Independence was a war against the tyranny of the absolute monarchy of Great Britain. The vast majority of the colonist sought representation in the Commons and this was denied them.
"No taxation without representation". The colonist was given no rights to rule his own country as he saw fit along liberal democratic lines. When indepence was declared in 1776 the King George sent armies to crush this blossuming democracy.
It was right to fight for freedom. That was not "terrorism". It was a straight fight between the authocratic armies of Great Britain and the democratic armies of the United States.

The suicide bombers of Islamic Jihad, Fata, Hezbollah, Alsca Marthyrs Brigade and the PLO are not seeking a Free Democratic Palestine post Israeli occupation.
They want to establish authocratic and theocratic rule of extremist Islam. No democracy, no freedom, no mercy for man women or child only IRON RULE!.

The Israelis are fighting these monstrous irrational barbaric crazies for the survival of the democratic and free society which exists in Israe l while surrounded by a sea of despots.

Do not ever equate Islamic fascist terrorist who attack innocent Jewish men women and children with semtex and shrapnel to armies of democracy and freedom such as those who established the United States in 1776.
Only a moron would even consider such a comparison!

by T J Moron Mon Jan 26, 2004 16:05

"Don't dare compare cowardly suicide bombers who blow up innocent men women and children to the those brave men who founded the United States!"

What about the cowardly bombers that fire their depleted uranium missles from miles away murdering innocent men women and children or are you too stupid to see that the way the bomb is exploded makes no difference the result of the explosion is always the same.

"The War of Independence was a war against the tyranny of the absolute monarchy of Great Britain......It was right to fight for freedom. That was not "terrorism". It was a straight fight between the authocratic armies of Great Britain and the democratic armies of the United States."

You are indeed an asshole if you don't realise that the war of independence was EXACTLY THAT, a war for INDEPENDENCE. Just the same as the war in IRAQ is a war against an invading force the US.


Do not ever equate Islamic fascist terrorist who attack innocent Jewish men women and children with semtex and shrapnel to armies of democracy and freedom such as those who established the United States in 1776.

I support a nations right to use any means necessary to eject an imperialist force from their country.

BTW Jefferson did say "One man with courage is a majority" so fuck you zionist imperialist.

by Benjy Tue Jan 27, 2004 02:33

Never has, never will. TJ Moron, you need to clear your brain and think for yourself. The USA invests billions in designing weapons which limit civilian casualties. Each cruise missile costs over a million dollars. On the other hand, your heroes, the suicide bombers deliberately target innocent people.

You really need to think about what side you take before you end up ruining your life.

by TJ Moron Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:33

This from a US cheerleader. The same people that gave us
"collateral damage" to describe murder of civilians and "friendly fire" when they fuck up and kill their own. The US, lord of the oxymoron. I can visualise the pentagon care bears sitting discussing with the arms industry (who own the US) the fact that their industry kills too many people and can they design terrorist seeking bullets and bombs.

Don't get me started on Agent Orange, Napalm and the sexiest of all, an estate agents wet dream, the Neutron bomb (kills people but doesn't damage buildings!!!!!)

At the same time that thousands are homeless in the US Bush blows billions on "star wars" projects and other bizarre technologies to control the world.

Benjy fuck off back to Crossroads duh

by Flower Power! Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:40

“Do not ever equate Islamic fascist terrorist who attack innocent Jewish men women and children with semtex and shrapnel to armies of democracy and freedom such as those who established the United States in 1776.
I support a nations right to use any means necessary to eject an imperialist force from their country.”

“What about the cowardly bombers that fire their depleted uranium missiles from miles away murdering innocent men women and children or are you too stupid to see that the way the bomb is exploded makes no difference the result of the explosion is always the same.”

So you CHEER innocent Jewish men women and children are blown apart by Palestinian bombers while at the same time call it murder when the American bombers do the same to innocent Iraqi men women and children!
Within the space of a few lines you COMPLETELY contradicted yourself!

by TJ Moron Tue Jan 27, 2004 15:17

Flower Power

Once upon a time there was a group of people who were persecuted and murdered by nazi's. They were rounded up and put in concentration camps and were starved, brutalised and 6 million of them were executed by the Nazi's.

A section of the Jewish community decided that this would never happen again and they decided that there should be a zionist homeland for the Jews.

If memory serves me well the leaders (should I say Founding Fathers) of Israel engaged in a TERRORIST (thats right Benjy) a Terrorist campaign! Against the British to establish their homeland.

They won.

Now Israel is a multi tiered society that its defenders argue is "a democracy surrounded by fanaticism". Actually Israel is a society that has almost a caste system

from the top
West European Jews/Israeli Jews
East European Jews
African Jews
Palestinians.

BTW Palestinians are put in Detention centres often indefinately, are murdered by IDF soldiers, have their land confiscated, Have their water stolen, have their movements restricted and their homes demolished.

Just because you are a victim of war crimes it does not mean that you are incapable of committing them yourself

by Flower Power Tue Jan 27, 2004 16:14

That is no excuse for blowing up innocent men women and children.
The intentional killing of innocent people in any war for any cause can NEVER EVER be justified.

If Ariel Sharon kills terrorist leaders in their cars with rockets from helicopters but does not intent to kill innocent people. I can live with that. That's war.
If Ariel Sharon cannot locate the terrorist leaders but decides to attack just any Palestinian house or car indiscriminately and kills innocent people with no connection with terrorism that is murder.

If the Palestinians cannot defeat the Israelis by conventional military tactics that does not justify blowing up innocent men women and children who are not responsible for Palestinian suffering.

The intentional killing of innocent men women and children is always wrong.

When innocent men women and children are killed when the intended target was soldiers of the opposition army it is terrible but it is not murder.

Terrorism is the intentional murder of innocent men women and children. Terrorists are cowards who hijack planes and hold innocent people hostage for the purpose of terror.
Innocent American civilians were attacked for the purpose of terror too.

During the American War of Independence the colonist did not EVER use terror to get their way. They did not deliberately kill innocent men women and children or take innocent hostages.

So your analogy between freedom fighters and terrorist is ridiculous!

by Justin Morahan - Peace People Tue Jan 27, 2004 17:45

Bob the Builder

(an etubirt)

Yonanon Bob the builder
lives in a house of cold stone
and throws glass
at peaceniks

the glass is called
"the winds of war"
(in depth analysis)

terrified placard-holders
run for cover
recognising the rockets
by their terrornames
"Weaponsofmassdestruction"
"Rogue-states-such-as"
"America-stands-up-to"
"We-are-stuck-with-war "
and
"War-the-only-way"

In Yonanon's glass arsenal
are cameos from history
rockets fired carelessly
at schoolchildren and babies
to shred young minds
with fiercesome shatter
shock and awe
worse than the next edition
of Encyclopoedia Bushanika

is it a man or
is it a woman
is it Debra winger
agreeing with hirself
is it a triple agent

or does bob spell
a builder with a
brown envelope
in the back pocket
holding cheques
to build glass houses
where stones can be thrown
in the new sad Iraq?

by TJ Moron Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:04

"The intentional killing of innocent men women and children is always wrong."

The US Military record on murder of innocent civilians second to NONE.


At 11:02 a.m., August 9, 1945 an atomic bomb exploded 500 meters above this spot. The fierce blast wind, heat rays reaching several thousand degrees, and deadly radiation generated by the explosion crushed, burned and killed everything in sight and reduced this entire area to a barren field of rubble.
About one-third of Nagasaki City was destroyed and 150,000 people killed or injured, and it was said at the time that this area would be devoid of vegetation for 75 years.

DAMAGE CAUSED BY THE ATOMIC BOMB EXPLOSION

Levelled Area...................6.7 million square meters
Casualties
Killed------73,884
Injured-----74,909
Total------148,793

Damaged Houses:
Completely Burned ------11,574
Completely Destroyed-----1,326
Badly Damaged------------5,509
Total-------------------18,409
(Large numbers of people died in the following years from the effects of radioactive poisoning).

I conclude from your logic that therefore the US is the ultimate terrorist of all time.

73,884 people murdered

by TJ Moran Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:12

The first atomic bomb actually used in war time was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6th, 1945 killing between 130,000 and 150,000 people by the end of that year. Those who survived the bombing are rapidly aging now after struggling for many years. The Hiroshima Peace and Culture Foundation has decided to newly videotape the testimonies of 100 A-bomb victims to commemorate the International Year of Peace 1986 to record the precious experiences of these survivors to be handed down to the future generations.

That added to the Nagasaki nightmare conservative estimates would conclude that the US military butchered over 200,000 Civilians in one year!

by tJ Moron Wed Jan 28, 2004 15:04

Your zionist love in might be upset by reading the following

Fact Sheet
The use of torture against Palestinian political prisoners and detainees in Israeli jails. February 2000

Since its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, Israel has carried out over 600,000 arrests. Today, more than 500 Palestinian prisoners are still being held in Israeli jails without trial; 7 women detainees are held in Talmond prison; 120 are in poor health conditions; 25 are elderly men; approximately 60 are minors and children; 20 detainees are being held in solitary confinement; 40 detainees are Palestinian-Israelis; and 130 detainees are nationals of other Arab countries.

Palestinian political prisoners are subjected to egregious torture by the interrogators of the Israeli General Security Services (the Shin Bet). Torture is used routinely and systematically, even in circumstances where there is no evident threat to Israel’s “security.”

Torture is defined as the “… infliction of pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, for the purpose of obtaining information or confession by a person acting in an official capacity”- The Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment of Punishment, which Israel ratified in 1991.

Israel remains the only state that has legislated for the use of torture. No country other than Israel has “legally” allowed the use torture in its “security” procedures.

In 1987, Israel decided to establish the Landau Commission to investigate allegations of torture against the General Security Service (GSS). However, its recommendations contributed to the systematic torture of hundreds of Palestinians each year. Later that year, it released its report with the exception of a secret appendix. The report stated that the GSS had used force in an unacceptable manner to the international community. Furthermore, the report confirms that GSS personnel had lied under oath about their activities.

The Landau Commission argued that the methods used by the GSS were not “clearly illegal” because the interrogators were “following the orders of their supervisors.” The secret appendix provided a detailed outline of the physical and psychological violent methods used and their assessment by the Landau Commission.

The Landau Commission’s findings are in violation of Israel’s obligations under the Convention. What is clear is that Israel, by adopting the findings of the Landau Commission and then keeping them secret from the Committee, has violated its reporting obligations under Article 19. Israel justifies this secrecy by referring to its rhetoric of “necessity and security.”

Between 1987 and 1994, the GSS interrogated some 23,000 Palestinians (Ha’aretz, 13 January 1995).

Interviews conducted between 1988 and May 1992 with more than 700 Palestinians indicate that at least 94% of those interrogated by the GSS were tortured or ill-treated (Al- Haq, Torture for Security). According to LAW, 20 Palestinians died as a result of ill treatment during their interrogation by the Shin Bet.

On September 15, 1999, the Ministerial Committee for GSS Matters, headed by Prime Minister Barak, appointed a committee to “find a lawful solution to the use of physical force in interrogations of terrorist suspects, where there is an immediate security danger.”

In October 1999, the draft Criminal Procedure (Powers and Special Interrogation Methods for Security Offences) Law, was introduced into Israel’s parliament (the Knesset.) This would allow the General Security Service (GSS) to continue to use coercive measures during interrogations.

Torture methods used by the GSS include the following: Al-Shabeh, suffocation, food deprivation, sleep deprivation and restriction of toilet facilities, beatings, “The Cupboard” treatment, Falaqa, pulling hair off the body, electric shocks and burning, threats, including death threats and violent shaking. (See below for further definition).

Israel is in breach of the object and purpose of the Convention against torture. It is also in grave violation of various other international treaties-- including the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the Convention on the Rights of the Child, the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, the Fourth Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, the 1945 Charter of the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, Regulations annexed to the 1907 Hague Convention (IV), the Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners, the United Nations Code of Conduct for Law Enforcement Officials, the Principles of Medical Ethics Relevant to the Role of Health Personnel in the Protection of Prisoners and Detainees Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Punishment, and numerous others.

Torture is perceived under International law as unjustifiable under any and all circumstances. The prohibition of torture applies to the use of any kind of physical or psychological force in interrogations. International law does not provide any conditions or reservations that sanction the use of torture or ill treatment in interrogations.

More than 100 states have ratified the Convention against torture, which means that they have accepted certain obligations to take effective measures to prevent acts of torture and to ensure the classification of such acts as “an offence” and, thus, punishable under their criminal law. Many national Constitutions, criminal codes, laws and regulations proclaim the prohibition of torture.

All confessions obtained under coercion or through the use of torture and ill-treatment are inadmissible in any court of law. The way in which information is obtained by Israel from Palestinian detainees is unlawful and in violation of Article 15 of the Convention--since they were obtained by unlawful methods. This information is also often undisclosed and is not passed to the Palestinian National Authority.

In 1991, Israel ratified the UN International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights of 1966; it remains, however, in breach of Article 7, which states, “ no one shall be subjected to torture, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”

Israel is also in breach of section 2(2) of the Convention against torture which stipulates that, “ No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.”

A 1994 State Comptroller’s Report, which was partially released in summary form in February of 2000, included very severe findings on the work of the GSS interrogation methods, such as disobeying the law, the Landau Commission guidelines, and the internal guidelines formulated by the service itself.

In February 1999, Shin Bet dropped its demand that the Knesset enacts legislation that would accord the secret service “ special means”-- a euphemism for physical or mental abuse-- to conduct interrogations. However, 46 Members of Knesset have agreed to sponsor a bill that will grant GSS interrogators the right to use physical force against detainees.

Whenever the subject of torture comes into question in Israel, the debate concentrates on the ‘ticking bomb’ theory which is the basis given for justifying torture in GSS interrogations. However, there is no justification for torture is acceptable whether on legal, moral, or security grounds.

Definitions of the common Israeli torture methods:
1. Al-Shabeh: a common technique exercised by shackling the detainee to a small chair or a wall, while covering the head with a sack that reeks of vomit and urine. The detainee is then deprived of food and sleep.

2. Suffocation: pressure is applied to the windpipe, which inevitably causes the detainees to lose consciousness.

3. Food deprivation: this is either partial or total during the interrogation process. Sometimes the hands are handcuffed while the detainee eats what is offered, usually small amounts of food or of poor quality.

4. Sleep deprivation and toilet facilities restriction: a detainee who is attempting to sleep would be prevented from doing so by loud noises and constant interference. Access to toilet facilities would also be prevented forcing the detainees to soil themselves, causing humiliation and emotional and physical pressure.

5. Beatings: the use of various tools, such as clubs, fists and boots aiming at sensitive areas such as the genitals, stomach, larynx and head.

6. “The Cupboard” treatment: detainees are put in a confined space (one square meter), in complete darkness, and almost completely closed. The detainee’s head is covered with a sack while locked into “the cupboard” for a number of days and is subjected to disturbing noises.

7. Falaqa: detainees are hand cuffed, hooded and laid on the ground in a position so that the bottom of their feet is facing up. Their feet are then whipped numerous times with a stick and/or a plastic hose--causing the victim to lose consciousness.

8. Pulling hair off the body: hair is forcefully pulled off very sensitive areas such as face, body and head.

9. Electric shocks and burning: these are administrated while the detainees are hooded or blindfolded. Lit cigarettes are used to burn sensitive areas of the victims’bodies.

by Flower Power Wed Jan 28, 2004 15:35

The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were clearly wrong as civilians were the target of the explosions.
The immense destructive power of nuclear weapons garantees civilian deaths from both the enormous blast and the fall out.
The use of nuclear weapons is INSANE!

The use of laser guided bombs in built up areas however does not always garantee enormous civilian deaths.
When bombs were dropped on Saddam's palaces in the centre of Baghdad the vast majority of dead and wounded were military.
The purpose of using laser guided bombs is to hit the target with percision.
One laser guided bomb would do the work of a hundred conventional "dumb" bombs with a much reduced rate of destruction and civilian death toll.

Comparing the bombing of Baghdad to Hiroshima is ridiculous and you know that very well.
Just drop the pretensious bullshit!

by Troika Wed Jan 28, 2004 16:36

Just about every historian agrees that the bombings of H & N saved more lives than they cost. I tend to agree as I have also read widely on this subject.

Anyway, it was a policy on all sides in WW2 to bomb civilians, not just American policy. Since then, this has become morally unaccetpable practice and the US has been absolutely exemplary in its use of weapons.

by Pax Wed Jan 28, 2004 22:01

The US could have demonstrated the awesome destructive power of the atom bomb, without hitting two cities, i.e A forest were the blast radius and power would have been apparent, or a sparsely populated military target.

Instead two cities comparable in size to Belfast and Cork were chosen. I wonder why? It was obvious what the bomb would do. Maybe it was dropped on these targets to see the effect on a civilian population?

The effect can still be seen today in a melted child's tricycle in a Hiroshima museum.

by ec Wed Jan 28, 2004 22:15

he goes into detail on how model german and japanese residential areas were built in the Nevada Desert during ww2 so as to test how best to cause dresden style fires in enemy cities. Intersting book if you come across it. some of it is available on-line

by TJ Moron Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:12

This is what Benjy actually said:

The USA doesn't deliberately target civilians
by Benjy Tuesday, Jan 27 2004, 1:33am

"Never has, never will........The USA invests billions in designing weapons which limit civilian casualties. Each cruise missile costs over a million dollars. On the other hand, your heroes, the suicide bombers deliberately target innocent people."

I repeat The US military are guilty of the biggest murder of civilians in the 20th century.
Flower Power says its insane to use atomic bombs but defends the US military as the force defending democracy against terror! The ONLY army to use such weapons of mass destruction.

Both you need your fucking head examined

by Flower Power Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:29

If the U.S. forces wanted to conquer Iraq without losing hundreds of soldiers lives they could have simply NUKED Baghdad.
Instead they used convetional laser guided bombs!

by Sal Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:28

because Nuking Iraq would have messed up the oil man

by Benjy Thu Jan 29, 2004 22:56

Ever since WW2, the only thing that stood between us and tyranny was the USA. I am forever grateful to land of the free for saving us first from Nazism and then from Soviet slavery.

It's about time you kids learnt to show some respect. So sing along with me:

KEEP ON ROCKIN' IN THE FREE WORLD!!
KEEP ON ROCKIN' IN THE FREE WORLD!!
KEEP ON ROCKIN' IN THE FREE WORLD!!

USA!! USA!!! USA!!!