Socialist Worker - A Review

by R Isible Mon Jan 05, 2004 20:15

But a question: do you have a political affiliation which informs your criticism of the SWP paper? Look forward to reading more of your excellently written reviews of other political traditions and papers. It should be noted that the temptation for this to turn into a troll-match should be resisted. Yes, the original article is critical of the SWP paper, but that doesn't mean this should be a free-for-all to scratch every suppurating sore upon the near-corpse of the "Irish Left".

by Zuppy Mon Jan 05, 2004 21:23

Now this is the sort of quality stuff that's sorely needed on Indymedia: a good, fair but sharp critique of a left paper. Real, thoughtful and humorous analysis beats ranting any day. Well done Adrian!

A review of SW's main 'rival', The Voice, (newspaper of the Socialist Party) would be welcome and dont forget the publications of the various microgroups as well! Look forward to the next installment.

by Dirty Digger Mon Jan 05, 2004 23:17

Sorry if this is turning into a bit of a circle-jerk here, but I agree with the first two comments. I like the way the article really explains the basics of what Socialist Workers is, its format and its purpose without just ranting away. Those of us who are on the activist left sometimes seem to forget that not everyone who has a look at this site or goes on a march has all that background knowledge.

If someone asked me about Socialist Workers I could point them at that article no bother. I couldn't point them at the kind of ranting that normally passes for analysis of different groups here because they'd never come back again.

I would love to see a serious response from somebody in the SWP to the review. It can't be that often that they get a long, detailed, non-ranting look at their paper from an outsider.

Adrian, how about looking at some of the more unusual left publications next like the Fingal Voice or Red Banner rather than going straight for the obvious ones?

by Janus Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:37

I think it's a good review and an excellent idea. Would just like to make a couple of points.

You state that the SW's circulation is approximately 1,500. Now for all I know that's spot on, but is it an estimate, an official figure from the SW? How is it calculated?

Secondly, while it's clear the author is no stranger to the SW, I think judging a newspaper on one issue is a bit harsh. Sometimes papers have really good days, sometimes really bad days. You could, though I don't think it was in this case, have an editor and team who had an off-week.

Thirdly, I think the book and film reviews the SW does, while of questionable merit journalistically, are at least a recognition that people have lives outside politics. Certainly their reviews of mainstream films and so on might be politically framed, but it's a bit of light relief in a sea of turgid prose about the inevitability of the revolution.

Anyway, looking forward to reviews of Saoirse and An Phoblacht :)

by Yossarian Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:48

Just to let readers know that there appears to be a new publication from some anarchists in Cork. It's in Zine format and it's called Cork Anarchist Conspiracy. There are 3 issues produced to date and they are available in libraries, cafes, wherever they can be left lying around or you can email
corkanarchists@yahoo.com
and ask for a copy.

The first issue seems to have disappeared, the second issue focussed on the various activities that anarchists are involved in in Cork and the third focussed on housing related issues.

If anyone has read any of the issues, your comments are welcomed by the Cork crew and they also welcome submissions, letters, etc for future issues. You can contact them at the email address above.

by IMC reader Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:55

This is a good article. I just want to add a few comments about the editorial policies of SW.

If socialists want to claim that they stand for a more just, democratic and egalitarian society, they must put their money where their mouth is, especially after the tragedy of the USSR.

Unfortunately, if you look at the way the corporate media work and the way a paper like Socialist Worker works, it's difficult not to come to the conclusion that the corporate media often have higher ethical standards. 2 examples:

1. Socialist Worker does not allow any opinion that differ from the Party line to be published. When there is something resembling a debate on the paper, for instance on the anti-capitalist movement, the debate is staged in a way that always let the Party line to triumph. Also, the only alternative voices that find hospitatlity on the paper are those of independents who don't offer an organisational alternative to the SWP and its various fronts. For example, if SW was your only source of information on the Irish anti-war movement, you wouldn't even know that the Grassroots Network Against War existed. You would not know about any other anti-capitalist network or organisation except Globalise Resistance, etc. Liberalism is bogus in many ways, but at least is based on the idea of pluralism of ideas, which is more than you can say about the editorial practices of SW. If this paper is anything to go by, if these people had any power you could forget freedom of expression. Corporate media are more open and democratic than SW.

2. The corporate media have a degree of transparency regarding their budget, readership, hiring practices. Even ordinary members of the SWP know nothing about how many copies of the paper get printed, how many people read it, the budget and so on. Again, Rupert Murdoch is a right wing bastard, but his ethical standards are in no way worse than those of the editors of SW.

Please note that this is not red baiting, just a fair comment on the editorial practices of SW. Other socialist newspaper have higher ethical standards.

by Jonah Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:16

I think there is a difference between establishment media and political media and the best place to be is somewhere in the middle.

Because they are political publications, I don't think they can be blamed for pushing their political line, but at the same time they should do so in a more honest fashion.

The cynicism of the SW in trying to hijack Joe Higgins' arrest as a recruiting tool was breathtaking. Join the Socialists went the cry. Establishment media referred to him as a Socialist Party TD, An Phoblacht, which tries to straddle the divide, referred to him as a Socialist Party TD but also included the SF line on the issue.

While not seeing APRN as perfect by any stretch of the imagination, it does seem substantially more open than the SW, or the Voice for that matter, occasionally publishing articles critical of the party line and often publishing letters even more critical. A few weeks ago a branch of Ogra Shinn Fein had a letter published attacking the leadership of Ogra SF for being incompetent in a particular circumstance. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, it showed a willingness to facilitate debate absent in the SW.

On the other hand, these papers are not papers in the normal sense but propaganda, and used to get around the fact that the SWP and the SP get little coverage in establishment publications. They might see themselves as not having the space to allow that debate, though personally I would think such debate extremely healthy for any party.

Good review btw

by Fingal Flyer Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:43

It was breathtaking the opportunism that the SWP covered the jailing of Joe Higgins and Clare Daly. At no point did they refer to Joe as a Socialist Party TD, rather they called him a "Socialist TD" and Clare was a "Socialist Councillor". Usually it's the bourgeois press that refer to Joe as a "Socialist TD". Their slogan was "Free the Socialists!"- even when there were non-socialists locked up. Anyone that was not around the left before would think that the Socialist Workers' Party was the party that Joe and Clare were in. When they covered the election of a bin tax prisoner in UCD they did the same again, never mentioning that the student is an SP/SY member.

This opportunistic approach contrasts with An Phoblacht and The Voice that acknowledged the various parties and groups people were in. For example the SP mentioned the ISN on the front page of the Voice.

by aidan Tue Jan 06, 2004 15:00

I have recently heard that the SWP do not allow there printing press etc to be unionised. Is this true? If so it highlights the hypocrisy of these dogmatic parties. I love the comparison of corporate media and trot journalism, i have been saying it for years.

by swp watcher Tue Jan 06, 2004 15:14

i'm not the biggest fan of the swp and the antic they get up to. but i highly doubt that the swp "don't allow" unionisation of any people they employ.

by troll watch Tue Jan 06, 2004 15:17

I would have thought that the SWP as a 'socialist' organisation would want as many members as possible to be members of Unions. Aidan you are a troll

by Troll watch watcher Tue Jan 06, 2004 15:20

Have you got any evidence that the SWP allows unionisation of their workers?
Are paper sellers unionised, for example?
give us the evidence!

by Janus Tue Jan 06, 2004 15:27

Typically when people make an accusation they provide evidence. You're saying the SWP doesn't allow their workers to be unionised. You should provide evidence to back this up. Guilt is what must be proved, not innocence.

Since the paper sellers are not employees of the party I would suspect they could hardly be unionised other than any union they are a member of in their full-time job.

by Troll watch Tue Jan 06, 2004 15:45

Read Aidan's comment. He was asking if what he has heard is true. It was a QUESTION, not a STATEMENT. If you can reply to his question in an infromed manner, please do.

by Aidan - IMC Ireland Tue Jan 06, 2004 16:53

The above Aidan is not me.

And the burden of proof is with the accuser.

by required Tue Jan 06, 2004 17:02

I didn`t hear anything about paper sellers not allowed being unionized, and I strongly doubt that. However, I heard several times the SW would be printed somewhere where the workers arent unionized and get paid horrible wages - but again, I don`t know if it`s true or arose from lefty bickering. Still, I would like it if SWP rank and file members would ask about this and, if true, try to change it - or comment about it at least (because maybe it ain`t true)

by anarchist Tue Jan 06, 2004 17:45

I guess I've allied myself with the anarchist flag - but I always want to see the Border go. Its nothing to do with nationalism, "The Republic" etc, I just think the Border is a bastion of UK imperialism, and if I'm calling for 'No Borders' all the time then why not apply it to NI...

So maybe I am a bit sympathetic towards the republican press - but objectively I agree with the writer on the comments about APRN. I wouldnt read it regularly but they do cover a wide range of topics and news items, and yes there is detailed debate and discussion within that often runs counter to the official party line. They even ran a story about the attempted squat in Disco Disco and sent a photographer down to the Thessaloniki 7 demo outside the Dail when nobody else did.

by SWP member - SWP Tue Jan 06, 2004 17:45

Rubbsih to suggest members and paper sellers are discouraged to join unions and it is untrue the paper is printed by non-union labour.
Thank you.
Now on to the next bullshit acussation and waste of genuine discussion space...

by Interested Tue Jan 06, 2004 17:55

Any chance of a review of that paper Workers Solidarity Paper- the one you used to get plenty of free copies of outside the trinity students union. The one that bart and lisa are members of- or am I mistaken- they are always pictured on the back page! Thanks.

by E - SWP Tue Jan 06, 2004 18:06

The Socialist Worker is printed by Larkham Printers and Publishers, which is fully unionised.

For example. this is stated every issue on page 2 of the British Socialist Worker.

Check (at bottom):

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/1882/02.pdf

Hope this clears things up.

by Adrian Alienation Tue Jan 06, 2004 18:11

Thanks for the mostly kind words (so far).

Here are some answers to questions that have been asked or points made:

I decided to use a single issue as a focus for my reviews because that would tie me to writing about what is actually written in a copy of the paper. I have as many sweeping prejudices as the next person and I didn't want to give them full reign. I don't have the time to look in detail at a large number of different issues and I wanted to avoid possibly unfair generalisations.

Janus' point that this could result in a publication getting an undeservedly harsh review because of a single bad issue is well taken, but from my perspective that's a lesser evil.

The figure of 1,500 comes from conversations with SWP members, tempered by my own educated guessing and is possibly slightly generous as far as paid sale is concerned.

SW has been printed at the British SWP's printshop in London at most stages over the last number of years. The copies are then imported into Dublin for distribution. As far as I am aware the British SWP printshop is unionised.

I plan to have a crack at all of the publications mentioned so far on the thread. The limiting factors are getting hold of a new copy of some of them and finding the time. I would like as somebody suggested above to give something like Red Banner or the Fingal Voice a go next but I don't know when the next Red Banner will be out and I don't have any obvious way of getting hold of a copy of the Fingal Voice, so it could just as easily be An Phoblacht or the Voice up next.

by Yossarian Tue Jan 06, 2004 18:59

email:
corkanarchists@yahoo.com
and send a return address. they will forward a copy of the latest issues.

by Dirty Digger Tue Jan 06, 2004 19:02

"E", "SWP Member", thanks for dealing with the question raised by that troll, although you needn't have bothered.

While you are here, is there any chance of a response to the review at the start of the thread? Agreement? Disagreement?

by Zoraster Tue Jan 06, 2004 19:08

"A review of SW's main 'rival', The Voice, (newspaper of the Socialist Party) would be welcome and dont forget the publications of the various microgroups as well"

Errrr, the SP is a microgroup. At least in the part of Ireland thats already in a Capitalist Federation of the British Isles. Both of the SP candidates in the recent elections got circa 170 votes. Rumours abound that a member of the SWP got 2,300 votes. Cant be true. Must be a lie made up by sectarians.

by Dirty Digger Tue Jan 06, 2004 19:31

Just ignore the trolls until someone comes along and deletes them - Zoraster, aidan etc.

This could be an interesting thread - don't let idiots derail it.

by Maratist - hooded idiots Tue Jan 06, 2004 20:09

"if I'm calling for 'No Borders' all the time then why not apply it to NI..."

- of course it should be applied to Ireland - no borders means no border between north and south of Ireland and no border between Ireland and Britain and no border between Britain and France etc.... NATIONALISM would be a project to move borders rather than remove borders.

by Toot Moule Tue Jan 06, 2004 21:30

If this excellent effort is anything to go by it will be well worthwhile to anchor it somewhere not unadjacent to the front page.

It is (perhaps?) certainly most reassuring to stagnant 'lefties' to hear the dread-ridden rumble of middle-class revolution emanating from the SWP-braintrust ... or was that just RBB loosening a septic gut?

Keep up the good work AA

by Intransigent Tue Jan 06, 2004 23:51

The SW does not sell near 1500 copies. You would find that the a closer estimate would yield something along the lines of a thousand copies less. There are very few people who actually pay for their paper. The organisation is suffering greatly as of recently due to internal strife...I know this because I once used to be involved with the SWP but was turned off the ideas put out by the bickering of the entire left.

by ?????? Wed Jan 07, 2004 00:18

To get a copy of the Fingal Voice, Voice, Socialist View or any other Socialist Party publication contact the Socialist Party 01 6772592 or a copy of Red Banner contact Des Derwin.

by Austin Wed Jan 07, 2004 02:48

The estimate in the original article is for circulation, so it's probably still too high but not by nearly as much as if it was estimating copies actually paid for.

If we take it that there are 500 paper sales (as per Intransigent's info), lets say there are 2,000 or so printed. Maybe seven hundred or so freebies?

(on another subject, was it a particular issue that made you decide you'd had enough Intransigent or was it just the gradual accumulation of bickering?)

by Zoraster Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:11

I am no troll, just pointing out facts about the North. The SP dont like the fact that McCann got 2,300 votes. If it was a personal vote then it doesnt say much for the personalities of Barbour and Black. The votes that B & B got were what you would expect for the NLP. Indeed on occasion the Natural Law Party have done better.

by Raymond McInerney Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:27

and that was even after they decided to pull out of the elections.

Can't argue with the SP too much, even won €300 in their draw last November.

by Zoraster Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:39

I hope you used the money to popularise yogic flying. Although the SP could have used it to improve the Voice. It looks and reads as if it were a zine produced by adolescents. I will write up a full review of the Voice shortly. Watch this space!

by Well Done SEA Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:32

Whatever they say about MCCann the fact is that a socialist stood on the most socialist and internationalist platform of any during these elections and got thousands of votes. We have heard the SP spout it was a personal vote, a left republican vote, someone from planet zork voted 2300 times etc.


Anything to attempt to tell their members that 2300 votes for one socialist standing on the most socialist and Internationalist platform of any during these elections is bad and 170 votes for the SP socialist is good. Well done to the SEA. By the way as a matter of interest does any one know the last time that a socialist polled so well?

by pat c Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:46

John McAnulty & Fergus O'Hare each got approx 2,500 votes in the local elections when they stood for Peoples Democracy against Gerry Fitt & Paddy Devlin. The Dump Fitt / Ditch Devlin campaign.

by John - ISN (personal capacity) Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:49

The review of the Socialist Worker newspaper was well constructed and I would agree with many of the criticisms contained within. However, if I ws in the SWP, I would probably say "its better than nothing and far better than the photocopied newsheet that the ISN (sporadically) produce". I don't know the circulation of the SW or the Voice and even if both are selling 10,000 copies a month it wouldn't be enough to challenge the mainstream newspapers.

The left should be considering a newspaper that can facilitate the views of everyone engaged in struggling against capitalism and for an alternative socialist society. Its not as if there isn't enough talent on the left to produce a newspaper for all, but the bigger left groups would perfer to continue with their own publications than have a paper that is broader and more accessable and less party directed.

This would be a mammoth task for the left to take on but probably would the most effective and creative way of developing an alternative to the mainstream media and a practical way to encourage left cooperation rather than simply issuing the odd call for unity knowing that it will never happen.

by Zoraster Wed Jan 07, 2004 14:51

Actually if the McCann vote was a personal one then it raises questions about Peter Hadden. The last time Hadden faced the electorate he got a derisory vote (see below), but % wise better than Black or Barbour as it was in a Council election ditto for his colleague. Therefore their vote is actually decreasing as apparently are the Voice sales but more about that in the full review of the Voice I'm preparing.

BELFAST CITY COUNCIL - 19 May 1993
Lagan Bank
HADDEN, Peter Mil 142 1.5%

Upper Falls
LYNN, Billy Mil. Lab. 144 1.1%

by Impressive! Wed Jan 07, 2004 16:11

Zoraster that says it all, Peter hadden lead head {er} of the SP in Northern Ireland and Jim Barbour leader of the Firemen get 140 - 170 votes and say that this is a positive vote, a vote they say that they were expecting and can begin now to build a mass party from such a result!!! Everyone else in poltics and in the Trade union movement are sensible enough to know what that result really means for the SP.
At the same time McCanns and SEA 's 2300 votes they sneer at . I hope you mention also the absolute decline of their membership in Northern Ireland also. As Marc Muholland said recently Hadden has destroyed the SP in Northern Ireland, just look what he done to the Airport workers... Read, all animal are equal but some are more equal than others, on the Blanket 18-11-03, written by a respected trade union activist. The same opportunist and party politics has happened to J. Barbour and although a good trade unionist the opportunism and so the result has left him with little crediblity in the surrounding trade union movement.

by Archivist Wed Jan 07, 2004 16:35

Heres the link for the Blanket article. You are not likely to find this information in the Voice. Frightening, is there no end to Haddens perfidy?

by pat c Wed Jan 07, 2004 17:05

It would be interesting to compare the votes obtained with the relevant paper sales. Anybody got this information

1. How many copies of Socialist Worker are sold in Derry per issue?

2. How many copies of The Voice are sold in Belfast per issue?

by tahoma Wed Jan 07, 2004 17:15

I think people are forgetting (perhaps on purpose) the nature of politics in NI. In the North there is very little room for parties that are not nationalist or unionist. This room is even less among the working class.

AS for McCann it is clear that this was a personal vote. The SEA in East Derry got a similar result to the SP in E & S Belfast. McCann is a very well known figure in Derry, he is still remembered from his civil rights days. McCann's programme was not sectarian, it focused on eliminating poverty, jobs, housing etc.

I don't think I ever heard anyone from the SP say that McCann's vote was a negative thing. Just that it was a personal vote and sadly he failed to win huge support from Protestant workers. I think that if anyone from the SWP were to be honest with themselves they would say the same thing.

by hs - sp Wed Jan 07, 2004 17:27

If I can cut into the squabbling for a moment and go back to the topic at hand! (let's be honest here the left in the north isn't about to take power anytime soon and squabbling over 2,000 votes is just ridiculas on both sides). The left as usual didn't do vey well in very difficult conditions except for Mc Cann who deservedly got a good vote.

The review was interesting and quite funny. Personally I've always thought that SW is aimed at people new to politics rather than any long term activists. Why they keep the articles simple and short. As opposed to the other extreme the weekly worker (which is probably my favorite) but the weekly worker looks like it comes from mars for anyone who hasn't been a leftie for a while.

SW is obviously aimed at speaking to members of the public who don't know them, as are most small political publications. i don't mind that as long as it says its the paper of the SWP on the cover. I've no problem with a partisan paper as long as it says so.

SW and voice can't really be compared to corporate press for very obvious reasons, (size, staff and reason to exist) only daily papers such as liberation in france or il manifesto in italy could really be compared at that level.

by tahoma Wed Jan 07, 2004 17:37

hs I think it would be silly to squabble over votes but I think it is important that people don't get the impression that McCann's vote was a left wing non sectarian working class vote. It was not. It was a largely personal vote which failed to win over large numbers of Protestant workers. This is seen in the transfers and in the size of the vote than went to the SEA candidate in East Derry.

by pat c Wed Jan 07, 2004 17:49

i think its worth saying that the sp failed to win over large numbers of workers either protestant or catholic. the sp got a tiny vote, live with it. they are in no position to refer to any other organisation on the left as a microgroup. no amount of explaining away will alter the vote that McCann achieved. the sea programme was also to the left of the sp one.

Hadden has been around as long as McCann, surely the sp should be wondering why the bould peter has no pulling power. the sp would also spend their time more fruitfully if they were to examine the reasons why a Genuine Union Activist like Jim Barbour ended up with only 167 votes.

to use a quote the sp made regarding the swp in dublin, the sp in the north are "A Micro Left Group with no base in the community".

by hs - sp Wed Jan 07, 2004 17:51

Obviously McCann is famous and has been a left wing activist and writer for decades so that was why alot of people voted for him. But what's wrong with that. Its the point isn't it. As for it being a mainly catholic vote Derry is a mainly catholic city and I am guessing he stood in a mainly catholic district. He may not be perfect but he is well to the left of the shinners, and as we correctly don't expect ordinary protestants to become card carrying commies overnight we shouldn't expect catholics (or anyone else for that matter). Many republicans may have voted for him rather then SF which would mark a major shift for them. McCanns vote is undoubtably a step away from sectarianism even if more catholics voted. But it is still a drop in the ocean in the real world and to be perfectly honest squablling over who represents socialism in the north between two tiny parties (which is what this amounts to) is very embarrassing and reflects very badly on us. And it would be nice if we could have a disscussion wiothout it. Just ignore the trolls.

by Da Wed Jan 07, 2004 17:55

Of course every one of (Uncle Andy) Barbours votes was a left wing non sectarian working class vote.

by Troll Alert Wed Jan 07, 2004 17:55

This thread couldn't stay troll free forever. Sure enough it didn't.

First there was a little outbreak of it from "aidan" and someone impersonating "IMC Reader". Some of that has thankfull been deleted.

Now we have half a dozen anonymous posts, starting with Zoraster and continuing with an identical theme trolling about the SP in the North. This may all be the work of one person or it may be that we have a few similarly minded trolls at work. None of this has anything to do with a review of Socialist Worker. All of it is designed only to derail this thread.

I appeal to other users of the sight (pat c, tahoma and raymond included) to have enough sense not to feed the trolls. The issue isn't whether or not you agree with a particular piece of trolling. The issue is that this kind of cross-thread anonymous trolling is highly corrosive to the newswire.

Hopefully the editors will remove the trolling soon.

by tahoma Wed Jan 07, 2004 17:57

Pat C you say the SEA programme was to the left of the SP one. What do you base that on? I would appreciate it if you were to back up your comments with quotes from the manifestoes. (I think they can be got from the BBCNI website)

As for Hadden and McCann being around for the same length of time. Yes this is roughly true, but McCann was a very well known figure not just among the left. He is a minor celebrity! A large chunk of his vote was a personal vote, to deny this you'd only be fooling yourself.

The vote of the SP was small. It was as expected though. Over the last 5 years or so there has been increased polarisation on the ground particularly among the working class. Any non-sectarian party that stood, aiming to get votes form the working class did not get great results.

by tahoma Wed Jan 07, 2004 18:01

hs,
I am not saying that the vote for McCann was a negative thing. It certainly is not. I have read his manifesto, it is based on class issues not on sectarian issues. If I was in Derry I would have probably voted for him myself. All I am saying is that we should not fool oursleves into believing that the vote McCann got was a massive endorsment of non sectarian left wing politics, that's all.

Derry is largely a catholic area but even if you take this into account his transfers still disproportionally go to SF/SDLP

by hs - sp Wed Jan 07, 2004 18:07

I don't see your point what on earth is wrong with a personal vote. I sincerely believe the vast majority of our own vote comes from the personal votes of our candidates and the work they have done in the communities (with the help of the party of course) This will hopefully change after the fuss in the press during the bin charge struggle. Many people who voted for us in the past didn't even know we were a party. And I'm from blanchardstown so I'm talking about people I personally know who voted joe without knowing we existed.

by pat c Wed Jan 07, 2004 18:11

but hadden claims to be a minor celebrity. on the sp site he is described as the norths leading marxist commentator. the reality is that hadden has never led a genuine struggle and his hubris in describing himself as THE leading marxist should worry the sp membership. who outside of the sp believes that hadden is a leading anything.

i will compare programmes tomorrow. i remember previously commenting on how the sp programme could have bben subscribed to by old labour.

this is not a sectarian attack on the sp. around the time of the elections i defended both barbour & the sp when they were attacked over past links with the pup. i also challenged lies about Barbours role in fbu anf countered smears on him with his actual statements.

by Adrian Alienation Wed Jan 07, 2004 18:17

I should know better than to feed the trolls like this but part of the trolling gives me the opportunity to expand on a point I made in my review.

Socialist Worker specifically argued that the votes that the SEA received in East Londonderry were evidence that the SEA enjoyed real support of its own and that McCann's vote was neither personal in nature nor Catholic in origin.

That line of argument is so delusional that I could hardly believe that someone could put it down in print.

The facts of that matter are that McCann got a respectable vote in Derry. That was something of an achievement. No other left candidate got a respectable vote anywhere whether they were standing for the SEA or anyone else..

The SEA without McCann as the candidate got 130 votes (0.3%). This is clear, empirical evidence that the SEA itself doesn't have any support - McCann as an individual does. McCann could have stood under pretty much any title and he would have got a similar vote.

That the SWP seem to choose to believe otherwise (in their paper and presumably some of the anonymous troll comments above) seems to me to be just more of the self delusion so common on the Irish left.

by pat c Wed Jan 07, 2004 18:20

so, to disagree with you is trolling?! wow! you really are in the peter hadden egoist league!

by IND. Wed Jan 07, 2004 18:21

Tahoma first you say, McCanns vote was not sectarian then after HS -SP came in it had changed to, people shouldn't get the impression that it was non sectarian? So was it not sectarian or was it sectarian make up your mind.

The above article just shows how hadden has wrecked the SP and destroyed workers confidence, those workers that they are in touch with. A Leader of the ATGWU recently said about J Barbours result, Jesus christ there are probably more fire men alone living in South Belfast than the entire vote he got, how to fuck can he hold his head up and say who he represents now?. It is common knowledge this like the airport workers was an opportunist stroke lead by hadden and like the airport workers has wrecked another very good trade unionist credibility. HS -SP there is a huge difference between 2300 votes and 170 votes especially as P. C says is the largest in 23 years. Hadden has did it again and I wonder how long it will takeJ Barbour also to find out that he also has been taken for a ride.

by tahoma Wed Jan 07, 2004 18:41

What I mean is that the 2,300 votes that McCann got should not be seen as a massive endorsment of non sectarian politics like the SWP seem to think it is. This is not saying that his programme was sectarian.

by tahoma Wed Jan 07, 2004 18:44

"A Leader of the ATGWU recently said "

who exactly? Back it up. Lets see references. If you don't provide them you are nothing but a troll. I will not feed you.

by Give us a break Wed Jan 07, 2004 19:11

I can back that up by saying that top union officals members of other unions and many trade union stewards have stated the same, but I suggest you do not name names on this site, suffice to say the SP are already aware of this. The real problem is the already evidenced information of how hadden has destroyed the sp and wrecked credible trade unionists. As for hadden being the leading marxist commentator, whowever said that needs examined. I can names serveral socialists in the north who are never out of the press. Hadden is never in them, he has never lead a struggle in his community. He is unknown in fact outside a very very small arena

by the ipsiphi Wed Jan 07, 2004 19:19

Which I have read with especial attention to detail, and as is often very preferable left the comments to read till later.

I look forward to the next review.
I like reviews.

{I shall now make use of the Win98 or higher Alt and left arrow shortcut to go back a page and skim read the comments} :-
I think Mc Cann did well in Derry. I didn't think this time round was the right election for increased representation on simple "red" grounds. We needed a clearer mandate for the two opposing ethnic and political traditions. And I wrote as much in my NI pre-and post- election coverage. I also remember a good piece by a Republican in the Blanket published at that time. Looking back at that Sunday Papers I wholeheartedly agree with "anarchist" above, and like there's not much secret about it. But I do think we all have a place in our strategy for the "simple red block" of SWP and co. And I think such "non-sectarian" platforms will together with non heirarchial "anarcho-" collectives have a great future in the North. But there are other things that require a certain clarity to do before hand.

Sunday Papers pre-NI election.
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=62344
Mc INtyre's piece in the Blanket:
http://lark.phoblacht.net/canvassing.html

by Adrian Alienation Wed Jan 07, 2004 19:32

Pat, I am not describing disagreeing with me as trolling. People are free to believe that Eamonn McCann's vote was based on the enormous support that the SEA has. I have yet to see any argument for that view other than its repeated assertion, but they are free to believe what they like.

I am describing a series of anonymous contributions about how nasty the SP are on a thread that has nothing to do with the SP as trolling. You know how this works, Pat. Take any thread and insert a bit of unrelated and anonymous trolling about SP/SWP/SF/Labour/Anarchistsand hey presto it's derailed into a wankfest. Just like the thread above.

This kind of thing has a negative impact on the usefulness of the IMC. Experienced users like yourself, hs, tahoma, raymond etc should be able to spot this shit a mile off. Scan up along the thread. It's mostly troll free until suddenly a whole line of anonymous and suspiciously similar comments appear about a left group that isn't even mentioned in the original article.

We could speculate all day about why someone is trolling here. It could be "classical" trolling - causing trouble for the sake of it. It could be someone with a particular obsession with hassling the left group of his choice - and all of the left groups have idiots who want to get at them. It could be a member of the SWP trying to change the subject rather than answer any of the points made in the original review.

Who knows? Who cares? The point is that we shouldn't encourage this crap.

by Informant Wed Jan 07, 2004 23:15

SP South Belfast Manifesto (Barbour)
http://www.geocities.com/socialistparty/Election/southManifesto.htm

SP East Belfast Manifesto (Black)
http://www.geocities.com/socialistparty/Election/eastManifesto.htm

SEA Derry
http://seaderry.co.uk/pdfs/SEA.pdf
The SEA also had a glossy CD inner sleeve style leaflett that was distributed before the paper @ this address. Hopefully someone will scan it and post it on the web.

I am biased. Looking at the 2 campaigns reminds me of Connolly vs Walker debates.

by red dub Thu Jan 08, 2004 01:19

am i the only person who is extremly cynical about this and believe that theis is the last so-called review we will see?

and it must be flattering for the SWP to be the most insulted and abused group on the left. this level of vitriol could well be simply down to good old fashioned jealousy on the part of the rest of the irish hard left/anarchists. i have said it again, but i am convinced that the most activism half the irish 'autonomists' do is attack other, less 'pure' ideas and people here. get off your arses.

if you are so offended by the paper, dont buy the thing. its very simple

by Badman Thu Jan 08, 2004 02:17

"so called review"

It is a review whether you like it or not, that is hardly questionable!

"Irish 'autonomists'"

How many of these are there? I have yet to meet anybody in Ireland who calls themselves an autonomist.

"get off your arses"

Ad hominem attacks are normally a good sign that you cannot address the content of an argument.

"if you are so offended by the paper, dont buy the thing. its very simple"

I don't think that anybody claimed to be 'offended' by anything. You sound like Rupert Murdoch, who also responds to criticism by saying "you don't have to buy my papers, watch my tv and movies or listen to my radio stations". And sure if you don't like capitalism you can always go live in a tree.

There is valuable information to be garnered from reviews like this even if they are hostile. It is difficult for small left wing groups to get feedback about the effectiveness of their publications. They don't have the focus groups, opinion polls and marketing teams that the big boys enjoy and it is rare that they hear an honest assesment from outside the ranks of the convinced. Even if the reviewer is not part of your target audience, there is some free knowledge to be gained.

However, you should keep up your cynicism. Hopefully it will spur on our mystery reviewer and others to write down their thoughts about the publications on the left. Even if some opt for the head in the sand approach, there are probably many others who welcome the chance to hear an assesment of their offerings by an intelligent and informed commentator from outside their ranks. And this review speaks for itself on that count.

by pat c Thu Jan 08, 2004 11:17

ok, sorry if i misinterpeted your comments. there are some comments on this thread which are trolling. but i think some comments are by the swp in response to what seemed to be sp attacks. also when someone (an sper?) mentions micro groups, its just begging for the SP election results to be raised.

the first trolling on this thread was undoubtedly the smears about SW being printed by non-union labour and the nonsense about paper sellers being unionised! for gawds sake the swp dont employ paper sellers!

as for mcCanns vote, it may be largely a personal one, but it doesnt take away from the size of it. he won that personal vote through decades of struggle. hadden has also been around for decades and his personal vote amounts to 140.

if we are going to talk about personal votes then what about joe higgins? his vote is largely a personal one. if stephen boyd stood instead of joe what kind of a vote do you think he would get? the same id true of clare dalys vote. only the very naive would believe that its purely a party vote which would go to say, brian cahill if he were to stand instead of clare.

originally the sp were going to run clare daly for the euro elections, but now they have decided to run joe higgins instead. why? because they know joe will get a better vote due to his profile. if it was purely a party vote they were after then it shouldnt matter who the candidate was.

by Fingal Vice Thu Jan 08, 2004 12:37

Good stuff Adrian.

by Inquisitor Thu Jan 08, 2004 12:39

"originally the sp were going to run clare daly for the euro elections,"

Where did you get that info from? What's your source?

by pat c Thu Jan 08, 2004 12:50

i remember it being mentioned on indymedia and elsewhere. is it not the case? perhaps my memory is faulty. but in any case, if the sp vote in dublin is a Party one rather than a Personal one, then any sp member should be capable of getting the same vote.

by Aidan Thu Jan 08, 2004 13:31

Just a quick note to reject this trol accusation. I simply asked whether swp printers were unionised. The response shows the dogmatism of trots. Also i am not impersonating anyone trol alert and none of my posts have been deleted.Its obvious that if you had your way that any criticism of SWP would be deleted. This is the point about these papers, they are worse than any corporate media. Has there ever been an article in the Socialist Worker that went against the party line?It is the CNN and Fox news of the dogmatic left.

by Inquisitor Thu Jan 08, 2004 13:42

"i remember it being mentioned on indymedia and elsewhere. is it not the case? "

Ah Pat, that doesn't mean that it is true that the SP were considering running Daly. If it was a quote from their website, a publication of theirs, or even a quote from a member it would mean they were considering running Daly. Indymedia is hardly a reliable source!!

Pat you are right that in Ireland's electoral system there is a 'personal' vote. Some people vote for someone because they know a particular candidate. Others vote on party lines, ie what group best represents them. For thousands of people (especially after the bin tax) the SP would be the party they identify with. I'd say if the SP ran either Daly or Higgins they would get a similar vote, Daly is well known too! Also remember that Daly is going for the Council, Higgins is not running for the Council, that may have been a consideration in running Higgins for Europe.

by pat c Thu Jan 08, 2004 13:55

if its a party vote, then surely if you ran stephen boyd you should get the same vote! come on, daly and higgins would do much better because of the personal vote they have built up over years.

by Willam Millar Thu Jan 08, 2004 14:33

not even the SP would run Steven Boyd.
Even they have respect for the electorate.

by Inquisitor Thu Jan 08, 2004 14:54

it's amazing how some on indymedia can seperate joe higgins and clare daly from the socialist party, as if they are not members! usually typified by "i've a lot of respect for Joe Higgins but not the Socialist Party....."

Pat, it's right to say that if the SP (or any party for that matter) ran someone that is 'unknown' or has no known record on community issues etc then they will not do aswell as someone who is known. The SP have won a good record on many issues in Fingal, and their candidates Joe Higgins and Clare Daly have won good votes in the area. If they ran any member of theirs they would get a respectable vote, but maybe not as high as Joe or Clare who have a longer personal record and profile.

by pat c Thu Jan 08, 2004 15:01

"Pat, it's right to say that if the SP (or any party for that matter) ran someone that is 'unknown' or has no known record on community issues etc then they will not do aswell as someone who is known. "

then its obviously a personal vote and not a party vote. it never ceases to amaze me how the sp think a different set of rules apply to them than to everyone else eg the sp think its ok to call McCanns vote personal but not Higgins.

people seperate joe & clare etc from the sp because they have earned respect. many other sp members have not.

by Hs - sp Thu Jan 08, 2004 17:04

Obviously the sp has worked on more personal vetes up to now. This is completely normal and natural especially in a country as small as Ireland. Also most people didn't know of the party. This has hopefully changed somewhat after Clares near election and especially the bin charges. But we'll see in the next council elections if the SP as a party has registered with a mass of people yet. Hopefully it has but even if not it we are moving very much in that direction. People who think trust in a party can be built overnight are deluding themselves. Consistent activist candidates need to run at all elections and be involved in community movements. SP candidates have done this (more so than any other group I can think of) consistently as anyone involved in the left knows.

by Inquisitor Thu Jan 08, 2004 17:12

What separates Joe and Clare from the rest of the SP? in my experience they are no different to other SP members. Joe and Clare do the same work in their Union and Community than any of the other members. Pat could you tell me why you make the differentiation? Fair enough if you don't have respect for the SP, but have the honesty to say that that also extends to having no respect for Joe and Clare. Or on the other hand, if you have respect for Joe and Clare extend that respect to all members of the SP.

Pat, surely the reason Joe and Clare are respected is for their work as members of the SP. Yes there are 'personality votes' but on the whole if you look at the transfers it will be an indication. In the case of Joe Higgins and Clare Daly their transfers go to other lefts (mainly the greens actually!) and about 20-25% go to non-transferable (actually quite high, ie a disenchanted vote).

In the case of McCann it was right to say it is a left wing vote. But looking at the transfers it was from one particular community. Fair play to McCann, people know him and have a good bit of respect for him. But don't think that there's much of a 'SWP vote' (they didn't even use that name in the elections, 'twas SEA.)

by pat c Thu Jan 08, 2004 17:19

repect does not come with party membership, it has to be earned. clare, joe etc are respected for the work they have put into campaigns over a long number of years. it is ridiclious to assert that i should respect someone merely because they are a member of the sp.

going on that sort of logic, should i have respected dermot connolly a couple of months ago but not respect him now? dermot deserved respect when he was in the sp and deserves continuing respect for the myriad stuggles he has been involved in over the years.

by Ray Thu Jan 08, 2004 17:32

A large part of these votes - for McCann, Higgins, and Daly - are personal votes.
This is obvious in the case of McCann and the SEA, where the other SEA candidates got, what, 130 votes? The only reason for this massive disparity is that McCann is a well-known figure with a sizable personal vote. Claiming otherwise is simply ridiculous.
In the case of Higgins/Daly and the SP, its harder to make precise comparisons. Yes, the SP gets lower votes in other areas, but this could also be explained by the different amounts of work that the SP puts into different constituencies. The only way to be sure one way or another is for the SP to stand two different people in Dublin West and Dublin North - Stephen Boyd and Kevin McLoughlin, for example. There is no way the SP will do this, because they know as well as everyone else that people don't look for the SP party name on the ballot paper, they look for Higgins or Daly. If they ran someone else in Dublin West they'd lose their seat.

by hs - sp Thu Jan 08, 2004 17:35

The irish system of pr doesn't have a party vote anyway. To be perfectly honest I think it's a good thing our candidates have to earn respect and fight in their communities rather than simply getting a party vote. Makes less chance of opportunists getting involved. If you have to work your arse off for years before even being registered by the communities it seperates serious activists and candidates from opportunists. And within the irish system and the mood of the public I think it will remain that way even if we do grow substancialy.

by John Thu Jan 08, 2004 17:58

I'm slightly surprised that somone who infers that he/she is a member/supporter of the SP would be so politically innocent as to say "To be perfectly honest I think it's a good thing our candidates have to earn respect and fight in their communities rather than simply getting a party vote". The reason that FF and FG have run this country for so long is because they blur the class issue with parish pump politics. Many of the people I have tried to get to vote socialist have argued, ahh well, I don't like FF but so and so got the corpo to fix me jax when it broke. The person doesn't even realise that these politicans are only getting them WHAT THEY WERE ALREADY ENTITLED TO. FF and to a lesser extent FG and Lab have taken this one step further in the past by getting people things that they were not entitled to by using their Party hacks to skip queues, turn a blind eye etc. The reality is that any proper society would have state services that are answerable to its citizens and mechanisms that ensure that people are informed of their rights and are provided with services without the interference of the local politican. In the area I live in everyone knows of people that have been on community employment for ten years and more because of the intervention of the local FF councillor. Parish pump politics is a tool to maintain FF hegemony, attempts by the left to compete are doomed to fail as half the officers of the public sector got their jobs off of these fucks because they were in the Party.

by Michael Doherty - Socialist Environmental Alliance Thu Jan 08, 2004 18:55

At least two thirds of SEA members who are NOT members of the SWP. The analysis of the SEA vote in the Assembly elections in the most recent Socialist Worker was dead on and reflected the many discussions had in Derry in the aftermath of the vote.
First, can I say on behalf of the two thirds of SEA members who are NOT members of the SWP that we are getting fed up of the characterisation of the SEA as ‘the SWP in different hats’. It is not.

This lie was repeated again in the review of Socialist Worker posted here. I read SW regularly and while I wouldn’t agree with everything in it, I know before I read it that it is going to give the SWP ‘line’, so I only ball it up and throw it in the bin if its ‘line’ is insulting to me and others who work alongside it in the anti-war movement or the SEA.

I thought the analysis of the SEA vote in the Assembly elections was dead on and reflected the many discussions had in Derry in the aftermath of the vote. The review of Socialist Worker’s analysis was disingenuous to say the least. It suggested that SW had said that Marion Baur’s 137 votes in East Derry was a huge breakthrough. In fact – and I am copying this direct – it said the vote for McCann and Baur was excellent in the context of the general sectarian polarisation in the North.

“As well, every one of Marion Baur’s 137 votes was hard won. She was the first left candidate to step forward in the history of the constituency. A member of the Communist Party of Ireland who started off with only one person on her election team (her husband, Herman), and not known politically in the area, she polled just 30 fewer than the leader of the Fire Brigade Union in South Belfast.

“The McCann and Baur votes were an endorsement of the fact that the SEA brought together socialists, trade unionists, anti-war and anti-capitalist campaigners, women’s rights’ and environmental activists in an electoral alliance to provide a radical anti-sectarian alternative.

“The SEA was also distinguished from Left-wing campaigns elsewhere in the election in that it headlined its association with the global movements against capitalism and war.”

In relation to Socialist Workers defence of McCann’s vote as more than a personal one, again it reflected what we know from Derry. The SEA stood three total unknowns in the local elections in 2002 and polled 700 votes in three out of the five electoral areas, so we would have expected anyone we stood to poll about 1,000 votes.

In fact, as SW pointed out, McCann’s being well-known went against him as much as in his favour and I can confirm that from the canvassing. Again, to quote “The fact that Eamonn is well-known did mean that many were already aware what he stands for.

“This undoubtedly gave the SEA a good start in Foyle. But it cost votes as well as winning votes. A common response to canvassers was ‘I’d vote for Eamonn if it wasn’t for his support for X’, or more frequently ‘He’d get elected if only he’d stop going on about capitalism!’ Foyle is about 80 percent Catholic but to crudely characterise the SEA vote as Catholic is an insult to Protestants.

“Nobody was counting but a good proportion of SEA campaigners were from Protestant backgrounds. Some votes across the divide were difficult to interpret, other than simply to observe that they crossed the divide – 23 number ones for DUPer Willy Hay gave the SEA their number two.

“And 55 SEA number ones went number two for Jeffrey Donaldson supporter Mary Hamilton of the UU. Both unionist candidates were ultra-Right on class and social issues. The fact that there was any cross-voting with the SEA was remarkable.

“In a constituency more than three quarters Catholic, three quarters of SEA voters transferred to Sinn Fein or the SDLP. It’s likely few of these came from Protestant backgrounds. It’s harder to calculate the breakdown of the 593 SEA votes which didn’t transfer to anyone, but they will have included people from both sides of the divide as well as some who don’t see themselves on either side.”

Like I say, as a non-SWPer, I agree with the above analysis – probably because it is the analysis agreed by the Left generally in Derry.

As for all you Southerners who are determined to continue slagging off the SEA as an SWP front, come to Derry, come to an SEA meeting and FACE THE FACTS!

by Christy Thu Jan 08, 2004 19:33

I think that Eamonn McCann would have been a great man for the Assembly and that it is regretable that he didn't get elected. However, his vote was I think largely personal. Someone with a less recognizable name would likely have polled numbers similar to other hard-left candidates in the election i.e. 150 or so.
What I think is curious is that his vote did not at all infringe upon the dominant party in working-class Derry i.e. Sinn Fein. In fact his vote seemed to come entirely from the SDLP as did most of his transfers.

by Badman Thu Jan 08, 2004 19:35

"As for all you Southerners who are determined to continue slagging off the SEA as an SWP front, come to Derry, come to an SEA meeting and FACE THE FACTS!"

This is pretty arrogant. If the SEA is not in fact an SWP front, then why did they consistently refuse to provide any details of its decision making structures and the affilitaion of the people who sit on those bodies. Your contribution has just been to re-assert their claims without any evidence whatsoever. Of course, all of the membership aren't in the SWP, that's the whole point of fronts, to draw in people who wouldn't join the party. It is the control of decision making that makes it a front or not. I'm not coming to Derry to find out for myself because I don't care enough about it. I'll base my opinion on what information is made available to the outside world who don't or can't attend SEA meetings, and on that basis the evidence seems strong that the SEA is a wholly controlled FRONT of the SWP. If you have something new to contribute on that question, please present it, don't merely re-assert the same old claims.

by westie Thu Jan 08, 2004 19:50

"originally the sp were going to run clare daly for the euro elections, but now they have decided to run joe higgins instead. why? "

Running Joe will shaft Mary Lou McDonald of SF. Mary Lou was depending on getting a chunk of votes from SP voters in Dublin West that will now be going to Joe instead of SF

by Ray Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:07

“This undoubtedly gave the SEA a good start in Foyle. But it cost votes as well as winning votes. A common response to canvassers was ‘I’d vote for Eamonn if it wasn’t for his support for X’, or more frequently ‘He’d get elected if only he’d stop going on about capitalism!’"

So Eamonn McCann may have lost votes because he supports controversial positions and goes on about capitalism? Good thing none of the other SEA candidates do that! Maybe you should run someone else in Derry next time around, get more of those pro-capitalist votes...

by hs - sp Fri Jan 09, 2004 17:51

But John you are also forgetting the fact that political parties can be conservative in nature, and in other cases where people vote soly for party without thinking about candiadates you can end up with Socialist Parties such as the Italian PSI which was one of the most corrupt parties in Italy. Ireland is a small country where you only need a few thousand votes to be elected. We also have canvasing which doen't exist in many countries. To remove politicians from direct contact with people is impossible and not desireable. of course FFers and the like will play parish pump politics but we have to challenge them with community politics such as the bin charges campaign. And all of our candidates must always be held accountable at a local level. You may call it innocent but on the other hand arguing soly the party role is both intellectual and basically untrue. If you think people will only vote for us because of what we say we would do in power rather than what you have done, you should go canvasing in June and find out for yourself.

by Michael Doherty - SEA Fri Jan 09, 2004 18:14

The SEA has never been anything but open about its structures etc. so I don't know what you are talking about. All decisions are taken at open meetings, there are no 'leadership bodies'. If something needs done, a sub-group goes away and does it, checking back with the weekly meeting that all agree. Most decisions are by consensus, occasional votes taken if consensus cannot be reached. During the elections, there were more frequent meetings. Sometimes, people have to make decisions between meetings and this is done by email and/or phone-rounds. Everyone trusts each other and if anyone does something others don't agree with, a quick email or raising it at a meeting gets it sorted without hassle.

by Adrian Alienation Fri Jan 09, 2004 18:19

Contrary to what you say in you comment Michael, my review does not at any stage call the Socialist Environmental Alliance a front of the SWP. I would have certain suspicions along those lines, but a review wasn't an appropriate place to air them.

The only mention of the SEA in the review was in the context of Socialist Workers' oddball analysis of their vote.

"The analysis of the recent Assembly elections is a case in point.

SW solemnly informs us that attempts to portray Eamonn McCann's respectable vote as personal in nature or Catholic in origin are designed to downplay the significance of the Socialist Environmental Alliance. It's use of the 130 votes (0.3%) achieved by the other SEA candidate as evidence of the wider support enjoyed by the SEA leaves the reader wondering about standards of numeracy in the SWP's offices, or perhaps about the ready availability of Crystal Meth there."

As far as I am concerned this remains a fair description of the crazy party of SW'scoverage. SW went to great pains to argue that McCann's vote was neither personal in nature or Catholic in origin. That quite simply doesn't tally with the available hard evidence - ie that the other SEA candidate got 130 votes and that almost all of McCann's transfers went to SF or the SDLP.

by Michael Doherty - SEA Sat Jan 10, 2004 15:42 Derry

those comments were made by someone responding to your review. However, as my response to your coverage of the SW review of the SEA vote argues, you ignore the SEA vote in the local elections two years ago where three total unknowns got 700 votes in just over half of Derry City wards [3 out of 5 to be exact]. the crucial difference between the vote for Eamonn McCann and Marion Baur was not Eamonn's personal vote [and of course all his work over 40 years of political life means he got a decent personal vote] but the fact that he had a team of 50-70 people working for him in Derry City, building on the lively anti-war movement there as well as on the intervention in the local elections, while Marion Baur had 3-4 people working for her in a mainly rural constituency that has Coleraine as its main town [about 20,000 people] and has had no anti-war or other anti-capitalist activity, no previous left intervention at all. Yet, as the SEA keeps pointing out, she polled just 30 votes less than the leader of the Fire Brigades Union in urban South Belfast. By the way, are all debates on Indymedia carried out in such an unfraternal manner? This is the first one that I have read and been involved in and I find myself very nervous about putting a foot wrong for fear of being jumped on for some ideological impurity.

by ec (proud to be one of IMC IRL) Sat Jan 10, 2004 16:41

Michael:

Thank god it does not hurt when you are 'jumped on' in cyberspace or most of our contributors would be dead already. Debate around here tends to be different each time. Generally people who - like yourself - use their real names deserve and tend to get a lot more respect than ppl like the 'lone gunman' and 'badman'. Welcome - get used to the place - think of it as finding your feet in a strange public house where even the people you know are wearing halloween masks and letting the 'id' or 'death drive' of the irish left out to play in public.

In a situation like this/that it's nice to meet someone not wearing a mask occasionally (even if you are wearing one yourself).

by iosaf - (oh very proud yes- shoulder to shoulder across the spectrum!!!) Sat Jan 10, 2004 17:07

Welcome to all new readers and contributors.
Some people are consistent with the masks and some masks carry different attitutudes or styles. Mine are : Iosaf (my name) Ipsiphi (something weird) and "O' as if" an anagram.
And I generally don't comment in other names. But I publish with oodles. Other regular contributors have a few names as well, after a while you get used to the voices and styles.
-???
How do you find a name for yourself?
Well it's very simple, go to a cemetary and search the death records for someone who died a really long time but was born in at the same time as you, now request their birth certificate which you may obtain through your local post office. Now apply for a passport under that name.
This of course is illegal.
So instead you might like to pick pocket a student, and affix a xerox of your passport photo over there USIT card. This of course is illegal as well, but Forsythe didn't think of it.
We in Indymedia land probably won't care though, but don't expect solidarity vigils.

**DO NOT use someone else's name, or a version which is obviously similar to someone else's name, this is a !SIN! in indymedia land, and we call it impersonation.
It is hurtful, and rude and provokes TROLLing.
:-)

by SEA supporter Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:56

For everyones information (from the SEA web site)

Convention of the Left
To be held in Derry, February 14th 2004


We are writing to invite you to a Convention of the Left to be held in Derry on February 14th 2004. The purpose is to discuss a united Left slate in the June 2004 European election. The SEA sees it as an imperative that there should be a left alternative in the field in June. If no one else is willing to come along with us we are minded to go forward on our own. In that circumstance, Eamonn McCann is willing to stand. However, we realise that a broad alliance covering the North would be hugely preferable. We are very open to argument from others as to how best we can jointly achieve this.

We envisage an electoral alliance of different parties, campaigning groups and individuals offering voters a radical, anti-sectarian alternative to parties based on one or other of "the two communities." The results of the SEA interventions in Foyle and East Londonderry by Eamonn McCann and Marion Baur make plain that a credible, united left campaign can attract a level of support which cannot be derided or ignored. Without such an intervention, the European election, for practical purposes, will amount to yet another "dual referendum" to determine who will champion each community vis-a-vis the other. It will take a united, broadly-based campaign to make a Left intervention credible.

The issues bringing together socialists, environmentalists, defenders of the public sector, anti-racists, women's rights campaigners and anti-war groups in other countries affect us here too. Millions of Europeans rallied to these issues in 2003, particularly in anti-war demonstrations on February 15th. Our Convention marks the first anniversary of those huge protests - which saw one of the biggest ever marches in Belfast that did not reflect sectarian divisions.

We must break out of the circular argument which holds that Northern Ireland is so polarised along communal lines that there's no point trying seriously to challenge its communal politics. A June campaign would offer a chance to link day-to-day local concerns to major issues being fought out at European level. Issues of water charges and environmental protection cannot be understood other than in a European perspective. The rise in racism on our streets is connected to the "Fortress Europe" project. Local civil rights issues now arise in parallel with the crack-down across Europe associated with the "war on terror." Privatisation schemes in our schools and hospitals are entangled with European directives on freeing market forces. And so on.

It is only in the context of the fight for a social Europe and against a neo-liberal Europe that we can pursue these issues in Northern Ireland. The notion that a better Northern Ireland and a better Ireland is possible is an element in the broader notion that another Europe is possible. As to when and by whom a serious political effort is to be made to bring this about---if not now, when? If not us, who?

The Convention will be held at the Verbal Arts Centre, located on the City Walls at Bishop Street, Derry. A crèche will be provided. A more detailed Agenda will be issued shortly.

Yours sincerely


Marion Baur and Eamonn Mc Cann

by laura Mon Jan 12, 2004 18:14 shoegirl at eircom dot net

Well written.

I always found in my long experience of socialist worker that they tended to be more emotive than intellectual. While I agree in the concept of revolution, I generally found that most of them got swept up in the passion, and ultimately ended up becoming the very people they once opposed. If the party could be more objective (as the anarchist movement has done, very succesfully) and move away from student politics, it might get a bit further.

I was very saddened to see that almost all the socialist workers I knew at college ended up as middle class professionals in Dublin 4 and 6, who were as willing to partake in the politics of exploitation as any other right wingers. Made me cringe.

by SWP Tue Jan 13, 2004 00:52

The issue of Socialist Worker that is the subject of the above review is now available on-line for those who wish to make up their own minds.

by Badman Tue Jan 13, 2004 04:52

But I still have to credit Adrian for a very accurate critique. I assume that SW is aimed towards a less-informed reader than he, which might mean that his opinion may not reflect the target demographic and that he has not accurately assessed its ability to interest a-political people. However, he was generous in one thing, he didn't dwell on the design of the cover. Looking at it is a similar experience to watching a baby seal being clubbed to death. If YOU TRY to CATCH attention TOO HARD, you end up CATCHING NONE!!!!