Report on March to Prison

by Swmmer Sat Nov 08, 2003 22:03

Not only were there no SF people around, the SWP were nearly invisible apart from Brid Smith and a couple of others. Did they have something more important to do?

by joker Sat Nov 08, 2003 22:36

Unlike the last time when they were not there in the basement.

by sorcha Sun Nov 09, 2003 02:53

funny the way some imc users complain when the swp are at a protest, but yet seem equally upset when they are not there.
make your minds up.

by pat c Sun Nov 09, 2003 19:56

this is the first i heard about it. increasingly events blockades etc are being called at literally a 1/2 hours notice. this is not the best way to advance the anti bin tax campaugn.

sectarianism wont help the campaign either, it seems to me the purpose of this article is to attack sf rather than to genuinely report on the march or build for future marchs.

by Yahoo Serious Sun Nov 09, 2003 21:01

The point of the article was to give a report on the march and to let people know that this would be a weekly event.

The Sinn Fein issue was dealt with in precisely two sentences. I could have just not bothered to mention their no-show but that would have been misleading.

Sinn Fein have a TD in Tallaght and two councillors. It is probably the area of Dublin where they have their greatest support. On Saturday there was a march protesting against the imprisonment of working class people from Tallaght and SF were nowhere to be seen.

That certainly deserves a mention and not just to score points. I didn't bother to mention the low profile of the SWP on the march, though somebody else brought it up, because that's just leftie gossip. The SWP don't matter in Tallaght. Sinn Fein do. They are arguably the biggest political party of any kind in the area and they didn't bother to show up.

It becomes doubly deserving of mention when the previous behaviour of Sinn Fein in Tallaght with regard to the anti-bin tax campaign is taken into account. They don't take part in the blockades at all. One of those councillors gave an interview to the local paper and called on people to pay their bin tax.

This matters because Sinn Fein could have a big impact on the anti-bin tax campaign in the area if they mobilised their machine and supporters. They choose not to.

Not only is that noteworthy enough to deserve more than a two sentence mention in a report, it would be misleading to leave it out.

by matt Mon Nov 10, 2003 09:55

Did the organisers (ie the SP) contact Sinn Féin? Or did they, as they do in other strong republican areas deliberately exclude them so as to 1) be able to dominate the proceedings, and 2) try and embarrass SF. This is what the SP are doing in Finglas for example in a vain effort to undermine SF in the local elections. Well, I think they might have a bit of a surprise when next June comes because people don't elect Councillors on the basis of a few stunts. If the camopaign is a shambles that is the repsonsibility of the tin pot joke Trotskys who are trying to run it like a student union rag week.

by anti bin tax Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:48

Matt, don't try and put the blame on the Socialist Party for Sinn Fein's pathetic showing in the anti bin tax campaign. Of course SF knew about the demo. There was ONE shinner from Finglas there. Would it be too much to expect Sinn Fein in Tallght to mobilise a few dozen people with a banner or plackards to show solidarity with the six local residents who have been jailed? Afer all it is a SF stronghold and they have a TD there. There are some genuine rank and file shinners, (particularly long time members as opposed to the careerist young guns) who want to fight the government on the bin tax, and their own party's lack of action on the issue has not been lost on them.

by Anon Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:44

The claim that the SP are excluding SF from campaign in Finglas is nonsense. Dessie Ellis is a member of the Finglas campaign committee as is another SF member Joe Lynch. Joe has been very active in the campaign and involved in most activities. Dessie Ellis has not been involved as much recently because he has publicly come out against the tactic of blockades.

by Janus Mon Nov 10, 2003 14:10

Nothing like taking a dig at the Shinners to keep the SP base happy. The SP's obsession with SF is truly bewildering to the point where they can't do a thing these days without making a dig.

First of all, as Pat C and Matt have pointed out, was SF contacted about the demo? And when were they contacted? If it was a quick phone call 30 minutes beforehand, as I suspect and as has traditionally been Millie policy, then no-one should be surprised if the Shinners weren't there.

Pat C makes a very good point, that Bin Tax marches and demos are being called at extremely short notice. Sometimes the first one hears about it is after the event. While the Bin Tax campaign might be the SP number one priority, it's not for other parties and organisations.

I do agree with the point that SF involvement in the campaign in Tallaght has been very small. Though a SF councillor was involved in at least one blockade that I am aware of, they have not mobilised their support base and they do deserve criticism for that. In some areas they have been heavily involved in the campaign, in others not. Clearly, for whatever reason, the Bin Charges are not Sinn Fein's number one priority. While I think that's evidence of wrong prioritisation, I do think they've done their bit across Dublin with half a dozen Sinn Fein members and supporters going to prison as part of the campaign.

Surprised to hear Dessie Ellis has come out against blockades. Was it all blockades or is he against blockades when everybody's rubbish is being collected in which case frankly, he's being eminently sensible.

The last point I would make is that I spent years attending demonstrations and pickets and fundraisers for working class men and women engaged in political struggle. Not only did members of the SP not attend, but they did everything they could to undermine republican activists and revolutionaries engaged in armed struggle. Shinners in some areas might have misjudged the Bin Tax campaign. Every single member of the SP misjudged the conflict in Ireland and frankly, that's a far bigger fuck up, and far more deserving of contempt.

by dalywatch Mon Nov 10, 2003 14:20

Lets get this one quite clear Janus. SF in the Tallaght area have at alltime attempted to sabbotage the campaign, not just not being very active. A SF cllr for Tallaght Central, Mark Daly has paid his bin tax and urged all other residents to do likewise. This is FACT noth the usual indymedia bullshit, He did this at a public meeting. Will DAly be deselected for the next elections? I severly doubt it.

If SF were active they would know about the protests as they would be part of making those decisions. They are not active in SOuth Dublin, DLR, Fingal and most of the city.

by (j)anus Mon Nov 10, 2003 14:25

"Every single member of the SP misjudged the conflict in Ireland and frankly"

What bullshit. SF are the party that have utterly misjudged the whole motivation for the British governemtn to remain in the North. SF have always said it was for strategic, military and economic reasons. The SP always said that this at one time was the case but since the WW2 that they would have prefered to dominate Ireland indirectly as they have every other part of their empire bu that it is the instablity and civil war that they feared from withdrawl that kept them in the North. SF are only now coming around to that position.

by Janus Mon Nov 10, 2003 15:23

As I stated on several occasions when the Daly story broke, I thought Daly was very wrong in this. You, btw, are also wrong. Daly did not do it at a public meeting but in the Tallaght Echo where every local representative was asked if they had paid their charges. The only TD who has not done so is Seán Crowe.

I agree that SF in the area have not been very active on it and, again, I have stated that several times, but to claim they are out there to sabotage it is conspiracy paranoia gone to the extreme. In the thread on Coca Cola a person posted, honestly wondering if in response to the Coke boycott Fair City had changed its script to use the word coke in order to advertise it because of the boycott campaign. This is much the kind of lunatic conspiracy theorising that characterises the micro-left.

I would also agree that Daly should be de-selected for the next election but I agree again that he won't be. SF elected reps are deselected when they break party policy. Daly did not do so. It is not Sinn Fein party policy, and perhaps a SF member could clarify this in case I'm wrong, to call on people not to pay the Bin Tax. I would deselect Daly on the grounds that he's a fucking gobshite whether he paid the Bin Tax or not.

Yes, condemn SF for not doing enough in Tallaght. Yes, condemn Daly for being an idiot.

But don't undermine your own argument by making foolish accusations.

In relation to anus, the SP continues i see to allow its northern policies to emanate from whatever festering crevice Peter Hadden inhabites. The SP's complete failure has been to believe there is some monolithic view within the British Government on remaining in Ireland. The truth is that there is division both within the eected British Government and within its military and intelligence apparatus.

Large sections of the British establishment are committed to remaining in Ireland, regardless of the wishes of the people on the matter. What has changed is not SF's views, but the strength of those sections undermined by years of armed resistance and by growing Sinn Fein political strength.

The SP, unable to understand the North, proclaim it a sectarian squabble and the British honest brokers there to lend a helping hand. Workers in uniform fighting for a piece of Ireland as British as Finchley to be forged into a soviet republic of the British Isles. While the SP might have the right of it on a lot of issues, as long as they continue to allow their northern policy to be shaped by cretins with only a limited grasp of the issues, the SP will continue, for practical purposes, to be sideline revolutionaries, telling the real players what they're doing wrong while not getting involved themselves.

On top of that, delberately attacking and undermining republican communities engaged in struggle is an SP practice that is beneath contempt. I might not like a lot of SWP people but in some cases they stood with communities under attack and under siege while the SP pontificated, shook its head in bewilderment and wondered why we can't all just get along and fight the bosses, unable to understand that people were fighting the bosses and the SP had sided against them.

by BinLiner Mon Nov 10, 2003 17:46

"Dessie Ellis has not been involved as much recently because he has publicly come out against the tactic of blockades."

I think you are mistaken, Dessie is extremely involved in the Finglas Campaign. He may or may not be opposed to blockades but that is just a tactical consideration for the campaign. The hefty fines given to the last group of protestors require a rethink on tactics. its all very well calling for the continuation of these tactics but how do we expect our campaign comrades to raise €1500 and maybe more for the next people court? The campaign will not be able to sustain these fines and either imprisoned protestors will end up serving a further sentence for non payment of the fine or the campaign will have to fundraise their fines. Either way we will have to re evaluate our strategy and come up with alternatives.

As for SF's overall input into the campaign it has been, to put it mildly, uneven. Could that be because SF are not cohesive on issues that are class based? Or that they are still a movement rather than a party in which everyone sings from the same hymn sheet? Or is it that they are not as centralist as many assume and that areas decide themselves on their level of involvement?

Janus states that the SP position on thew "conflict" has been a "fuck up" well personally I agree. However SF's position today is unrecognisable to say 10 years ago when they were engaged in armed struggle. So I think a little latitude should be given to organisations when it comes to the 'conflict'.

Finally, Janus, the term "micro left" as a method of demeaning another persons position should be avoided. After all, SF was a "micro republican" movement before the hunger strikes in the 80's.

by hs - sp Mon Nov 10, 2003 18:30

both the sp defender and janus is oversimplfing sps position on the north. we did and do not simply say "brits wanna leave" without taking more into account. including saying why we believed this. Anyone is free to read the documents on the website.
The armed struggle although we believe was a mistake we have never said happened soly because of SF or the IRA, its obvious the IRA leadership had infact moved away from armed struggle at the beginning of the troubles. we have always said british policy pushed people into the armed struggle (as often IRA policy pushed people in loyalist groups). And we have always recognised splits within the british establishment, But we still believe IRA policy was mistaken. People should read the policies before making glib comments.

by The ghost of Sinn Fein's past Mon Nov 10, 2003 18:48

Janus, in your effort to detract attention from Sinn Fein's inaction regarding the anti bin tax campaign, do you really have to decend to infantile and ridiculous name calling labelling the SP the party of the bosses? You can call the SP "the party of the bosses" the day that Joe Higgins shakes the hand of Dubya Bush (as Adams did); you can call the SP the party of the bosses, the day that the SP accepts money from Coca Cola (as Sinn Fein did); You can call the SP the party of the bosses, the day that their councillors vote for bin charges (as Sinn Fein did in Sligo); you can call the SP the party of the bosses, the day that the SP welcomes public private partnerships in schools and hospitals (as Sinn Fein did in the North). The truth of the matter is that Sinn Fein will always be inconsistent on class issues because at the end of the day, sinn fein would be happy with a 32 county CAPITALIST republic (with themselves in government, of course)- where the same exploitation could continue under a different colour flag- workers and bosses? - sure aren't we all Irish anyway!

by Janus Mon Nov 10, 2003 19:49

My use of the term micro-left was demeaning, and frankly was meant to be. In retrospect, it was childish and I withdraw it.

I think binliner makes some very good points, particularly about the need to rethink the blockade tactic, which I oppose when all rubbish is being collected. We need to start thinking a bout a new strategy.

Whatever about today, when I was in Sinn Fein, local areas had a great deal of autonomy on local issues. If they didn't want to prioritise an issue and could give a reasonable explanation of why not, unless it was an issue of national importance, they'd be let go their own way. A campaign against drugs for example might be a priority in Ballyfermot and Finglas, not as much in say Terenure. I'd assume Bin Charges, since it's not a national issue is seen by activists in Dublin as a local one. In areas where people support the campaign, they'd be active, in areas where they don't, they'd focus their energies on something else. Again, for all I know, things have changed a lot in the last few years in the party.

I actually don't think there has been much of a change in SF policy on the North compared to the policy of the broader republican movement. SF policy was to support armed struggle but always in the context of their being no alternative. An alternative, flawed certainly, has been provided and so the party feels obliged to pursue it. Most SF members would see it as the same struggle through different means. This is not to say there were no policy changes, and some important ones, but that it might be easy to exagerrate it. The ones that were however, were enough for me.

I have read only one SP document on the North, a fairly substanial one by Peter Hadden written after the GFA. It was....well, my mother always said to focus on the positive so I will content myself with saying the spelling was very good. I think the SP failed to see what was in essence a revolutionary struggle as they were blinded by State propaganda which led to them to perceive republican working class struggle for independence and socialism as the mirror image of reactionary loyalist death squads operating to protect British imperialism. Frankly, I can't think of many bigger mistakes.

The ghost makes several valid points, most of them I agree with and that's why I'm not a member of Sinn Fein. I have often said on Indymedia that I have more sympathy for the SP on socio-economic issues than SF and to be very blunt, were it not for their members, to be somewhat less blunt, their internal politics and to be fairly unblunt their northern policiy, I'd probably have applied to join.

I do think the SP, by their actions and statements, were on the side of imperialism in the Six Counties. Being on their side makes them a Bosses Party in my opinion. And what mistakes the Shinners have made, most of them in the last four or five years as part of a gradual process of moving to the centre, they never made a mistake that big. Not even close.

by matt Mon Nov 10, 2003 20:55

Obviously they haven't told you about all those years they spent as members of the Free State Labour Party - most of which were in government with the Blueshirts. Those were the days when there were hundreds of political prisoners, when the Branch tortured and murdered real revolutionaries (as opposed to the Militant who were out canvassing for Michael O'Leary); the days when the LP presided over mass unemployment; when the Army was used to break strikes, and I could go on and on. Point being that whatever ridiculous notion Militant had about infiltrating the "traditional party of the Irish working class" - why didn't they infiltrate FF on that basis? - objectively they were not only part of a bosses party but were supporters of a bosses government. So don't get on your little horse about SF until you understand the real history of your own sad little gang.

by A Mon Nov 10, 2003 21:01

Janus
I find your comments on SF useful but i would ask, do you think the SF are still a republican party and do you see any real difference between their policy and that of the SDLP?

by Janus Mon Nov 10, 2003 21:25

I think there are some substanial differences though I do agree that the Shinners are moving more to the SDLP than the other way round.

They continue to disagree on policing for example, on rights and equality issues and frankly, I don't believe the SDLP is serious about a united Ireland. Whatever else they're serious about, the Sinn Fein leadership is deadly serious about a united Ireland. The SDLP would be happy with an internal settlement and probably see the GFA as the end of the conflict.

I also believe SF is further to the left than the SDLP. Yes, the implemented PFI, but they also did everything they could within the Government to fight it, and frankly, the suggestions for what else they could have done from other groups lack credibility.

Look at Sinn Fein in the South, arguing for redistribution of wealth, opposing Nice, Bin Charges, the war on Iraq, supporting a rights based approach to socio-economic issues and true equality. There is no radical left party in the South with the same level of credibility. I don't see the same commitment from the SDLP. Certainly the Shinners would never get the PDs to give them policy advice. SF in the North is hamstrung by electing people to an assembly with little real power, they calculate that with growing political strength, that can be changed.

I would still see SF as a republican party. I think a lot of people, very wrongly, equate republicanism with weapons. Armed struggle, while I supported it in the past and may, though I hope never to have to do so, support it in the future, was a tactic, not a principle. Calling a halt to armed struggle to allow politics to develop when the option was there was sensible.

So yes, I do see Sinn Fein as republicans, and I do see them as different to the SDLP, substanially so in both style and substance. But I do agree that the party is drifting away from republicanism to simply nationalism; and towards the SDLP. There are people in the party fighting to pull it one way or the other. I think as the party grows stronger in the South, if anything we'll see the gradual move to the right stopped and reversed. Traditionally, SF in the south has always been more to the left on socio-economic issues.

by A Mon Nov 10, 2003 21:59

Janus thank you for your points> I would tend to agree with your view that SF are moving to the centre but i fel that they have moved quite a bit more than you allow for.
In governmant they have implemented policys that are in reality tory, the argument that they had no choice is limited because they could have taken either of the following three roads to deal with PFI.
They could have sought the same conditions that the British Government allows in England and Wales where the public sector can tender for the work (in the north they are not) or they could have made a fundimental demand at negotiations more capital expendature in the north or they could have left the stormont government and played an opposition role in the Assembly refusing to cut jobs and services.
On the comparison between the SDLP and SF on a united Ireland it would be hard now to see any real difference. In the past the republican family fought to remove the british and the SDLP tended towards negotation and the birth rate as their tactic. It seems to me that the SDLP tactic has been taken up by SF and I honestly can not see the difference between them today.