Labour and Bin Tax campaign

by Labour Loather Sat Sep 13, 2003 15:08

Labour are an elitist party.

They think that change can happen by passing resolutions in a room of 166 old men in suits.

They do not support communities and workers empowering themselves in the bin tax camapign. Fair play to all those involved in organising the blockades in Fingal and the City.

by ec Sat Sep 13, 2003 15:30

She explained labour nun support by referring to the threat . . . . . of rats

by Paul Kinsella - Dublin Anti Bin Tax Campaign Sat Sep 13, 2003 15:42 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 087 - 9748511

Bernard Harbor of that so-called 'trade union' IMPACT in fact the most gung ho of all in support of those 'partnerships' and also the most gung ho in favour of privatisation has publicly demanded that the bin workers enforce the non collection polict in Fingal and the rest of Dublin as they "are legally and lawfully contracted to enforce the County Manager's edicts" and he has threatened to expel any members of IMPACT who don't follow his dictate. Thankfully IMPACT any tepresent a minority of the bin workers in Dublin and most IMPACT bin workers are openly defying and disobeying Harbor's disgraceful dictate. Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame on you Harbor and IMPACT! At least have stated their opposition to service charges (Double taxation), which is a hell of a lot more than can be said for IMPACT. I'd like to see one of the IMPACT head officials come on here and try to defend their position on service charges.

by killian Sat Sep 13, 2003 15:49

Paul, have you any idea of the breakdown in %'s between IMPACT and Siptu members who are bin workers?

by Paul Kinsella - Dublin Anti Bin Tax Campaign Sat Sep 13, 2003 15:58 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire 087 - 9748511

Except to say that IMPACT have a somewhat higher % of the bin workers in Fingal than in the Dublin City Council area but they would still be in the minority. Unfortunately IMPACT tend to have most of the supervisory and administrative workers both in Fingal and the rest of Dublin and they are the people who are tagging people's bins and fingering out who hasn't paid.

by simon Sat Sep 13, 2003 16:01

I partially agree with the principle of non-payment due to the percieved double-taxation but cant help feel its an extension of the NIMBY attitude to waste management that dogs Ireland. The process of waste management and recycling is becoming ever more complicated and expensive. It should be incumbent to the principle of the polluter pays.

Now she wasnt a spokesperson for the anti-bin Tax group but a female protestor was quoted as saying that producing waste is a way of life and basically somebody else should take care of it. No indication of responsibility of the the household to control the waste flow.

No one from the anti-bin tax lobby has proposed a way of covering the increasing cost of waste management. Do they simply want to continue with the unsustainable landfilling of our waste.

I would prefer if the tax was reduced but also reflecting the quantity of waste produced by each household. I dont think its fair that I pay the same amount as a household that produces tons more waste than me. This should be equated across industry as well.

It seems that these people dont understand waste management and want to be able to continue dumping all their rubbish with minimal responsibility for it after the bin-lid closes.

i could be wrong about this can someone explain the full implications involved because I paid once but havent paid again

by ray - labour youth Sat Sep 13, 2003 16:32

firstly let me say that i myself have been involved in the anti-bin tax campaign,i think the double taxation is unfair and the disregarding of the power given to our elected local officials is disgraceful.i also have to say that i'm not the labour party and if you want burton's or another tds,senators or councillors opinion you should talk to them.
i am a member of labour youth.while i disagree with my parties stance i can see the reasoning behind their arguments.i'm from a small rural village which never stopped paying bin tax so while i repeat that i think the tax unfair due to the fact that it isn't linked to individual financial standings the idea that only the working class are suffering under it is a bit far fetched when people in rural areas of all classes have continued paying it for years.
on non-payment,whether we argree or disagree with taxes we are not given the option of deciding what we do and do not pay.i have my reservations that given the disregard for local democracy these were democratic decisions but the labour party treats tham as such.thus breaking a law however stupid must not be allowed.
on non-collection i am unsure of the exact party stance but i imagine it echoes the point on non-payment.we would treat people who pay as those who didn't.is that fair to those that paid their taxes?
i noted in the first post that there was an often heard tone,something i like to call the "whinging labour are sell outs"point that i have heard a million times(often from the same people).these people are never in the labour party and are mostly bitter about the level of support given labour,this is often followed with points which generally say that people are too ignorant to see that labour is selling out,blah,blah,blah.and you call us elitist?i can guarantee that i know more grass roots labour activists then all of these twisted people put together and labour isn't what their misinformed opinions would make it.i don't like rabbitte,i sometimes disagree with our party but all the shit flinging i read from pat speech on privisation,to our blairite tendencies,to our abandonment of the working class is all misinformed bull.if these people had read the entire speech or been at our party conference they would know the reality.i might note aswell that these finger pointing galleries always begin with joan burton,pat the rabbit said(or better yet i think maybe an anonymous source heard a labour rep say they hated working class people).well i'll let you in on a little secret, our parlimentary party is far more conservative than it's party,so give me "labour member comes out strongly against non-payment".
i find that these contests are always repeditive(i await the names and words,lacey,sell out,millies,commerce,fianna fail coalition)so if anyone has anything new to say then i'm all ears,if not then don't bother i've heard it all before.

by ray - labour youth Sat Sep 13, 2003 16:37

sorry to quickly add that labour(tds,meps,senators,members)are opposed to the bin tax but disagree with the methods of non-payment.there is no end to labours protests on the passing of powers over to local authorities and the consequential cost to people in both money and democracy.

by simon Sat Sep 13, 2003 16:50

Do labour have a strategy for covering the increasing costs of waste management?

I would stand by the principle of polluter pays and it should be spread equtably across industrial and domestic waste. Im losing my patience with the so called working class who still think its fair to produce huge amounts of waste and take no responsibility for it. I happen to be very cautious on the amount of waste we produce in our house - we compost a small amount and seperate our recyclable waste form the non. We have a storage area out the back to store our glass for occasional trips to the bottle banks. We purchase products that use less or no packaging etc etc. Should I pay the same a house (working-class or not) that doesnt care about how much they dump etc. and uses more fuel and space in the processing of their rubbish.

Also there is the point regarding the regions that have always paid these charges......

by pete - . Sat Sep 13, 2003 17:08

it is true all other parts of the country are paying bin tax, but many were against it and had their own campaigns. But if the four councils in Dublin win don't you think that will effect the rest of the country? It will definitely reignite cork which had a camplaign.

The closest campaign too it was the anti water charges campaign. Almost immediately after the victory water charges were dropped nationally even though regions outside dublin had been paying for years.

On Labour first of all I am or was a supporter after this not any more. I have voted labour all my life and I gave Joan Bruton my no. 2 after joe higgins.

, alot of labour voters are involved in the protests and its obvious alot of members are against it. I think really it spells out the problems of the party. And one reason I won't vote for them again. Joan Bruton is a TD of Dublin west. All of blanchardstown and its surronding areas is deep in a difficult struggle, facing arrests and hostility from the police. Monday will see a huge stand off. I would say a majority of her voters oppose the bin tax and support the campaign. But she is instead of supporting them publically going against them. This for me is a betrayal and it will be remembered at the next election. She lost her seat before for similar reasons. I will not vote for her again.

On waste management the first thing we should do is cut it down at source. We don't need ten layors of packaging and that nonsense. But as commercial waste is more than 90% of waste they should pay for more than 90% of the waste. PAYE already pay practically all of the tax and its about time the ansbacher crowd paid their share.

by ray - labour youth Sat Sep 13, 2003 17:23

firstly to amswer simons question.labour see reduction on the spending on incinerators/large scale waste disposal and a more effective and cheaper alternative in recycling as freeing up the funds necessary to collect rubbish without a double tax.i might add that labour opposed the protection of the enviroment act on the grounds of both increased costs and on behalf of anti-incinerator and waste site campaigners(the party called on the government to give these groups and local councils a forum for discusssion).go to www.labour.ie and eamonn gilmore for further details.i'm not sure i would entirely sympathise with your view on having to pay for other peoples mismanagement-different people avail of different services to different extents,i'm sure you us one more than others.

to pete.i can only repeat that the party did oppose the act and as you say the party does not always represent the membership.i agree this is a problem.i can only assume that her opinions are linked to the points i made on the law concerning non-payment etc.sorry to lose your vote.

by simon Sat Sep 13, 2003 17:55

I threw in that paying for other peoples waste management question as a bone. I know full well I use sevices to or a less or greater extent than others etc. I was merely pointing out the faint smell of hypocrisy on the part of SOME of the anti-bin tax lobby.

by pat c Sat Sep 13, 2003 19:04

"She explained labour nun support by referring to the threat . . . . . of rats "

damn, i thought labour were becoming a secular party. now they are using nuns to get rid of rats.

thanks for exposing this eamon ;)

by pat c Sat Sep 13, 2003 19:22

i think the LP as a whole though is cynically using its verbal opposition in the hope of garnering votes.

the Green Party however is fully in support of bin charges. they will be disingenuous about the issue by saying they oppose a flat rate charge, but they support the principle of a bin tax.

by Itchie Feet Sat Sep 13, 2003 19:48

Before I comment I would like to first point out that, although what I say might sound extreme, I am not an extremist.

Now to my point. This country has, for too long, moaned about the way things are run. Yet only small groups get together to protect. Everyone else just watches and waits for others to fix everything. Bin tax is necessary, but it's a because of the way things are run. I suppose my point is this:

Our ELECTED politicians are the people we trust to run our country. If we are not happy, get rid of them. We put them there now it's time to get rid of them if we are not happy!

Stop moaning, because it doesn't help. Stop the small protests because, as we saw with the large international protests against the war, PROTESTING IS POINTLESS AS NO-ONE REALLY CARES!!!
It's time for one big show of our lack of confidence in our government. NO PROTEST, NO ANGRY LETTERS, JUST FIRE THE BASTARDS!!!! We hired them, that's the essense of democracy.

Bear in mind I'm uneducated and I may be quite stupid on this matter but that's just my opinion

by The Insider Sat Sep 13, 2003 20:44

"PROTESTING IS POINTLESS AS NO-ONE REALLY CARES!!!"

- What about last year's protests against college fees.

- Or Farmers protests?

- How do you think women got the vote in the first place?

BY PROTESTING!!

by simon Sat Sep 13, 2003 20:52

Is anybody opposing the tax willing to put forward a suggestion as to where the money for the increase in the running costs of waste managament should come from. Realistic answers please. And what would be a good way of instilling a principle of household waste-management in a poorly educated (in relation to waste) population.

by Answers Sat Sep 13, 2003 21:40

Almost all of the waste which goes into landfills in Ireland comes from industrial, agricultural and commercial sectors. Domestic waste makes up less than 2% of the waste management problem.

The waste crisis should be tackled by a rise in corporation tax and the introduction of punitive measures against the real polluters. The money raised through corporation tax, and through clamping down on the rich income tax cheats should then be spent on introducing a serious recycling infrastructure.

The bin tax has nothing to do with waste or the environment. If the government was serious about either it would be going after its business friends and it would be setting up recycling plants rather than allowing them to close.

The bin tax is just a renamed water tax. It is nothing but an attempt to further shift the tax burden onto PAYE workers who already pay the overwhelming bulk of tax in this country, while the Ansbacher friends of the government pay nothing.

By renaming the local tax on workers the "bin tax" the government has been able to enlist the support of the dullard wing of the environmentalist movement, unable to see the concrete reality behind the "environmentalist" name.

Further, the bin tax paves the way for privatisation of the service (as has already happened in a number of areas around the country).

The funny thing about our anti-PAYE worker "Greens" is that some of them can see the damage that the neo-liberal privatisation agenda does elsewhere in the world. So you get them involved in things like the Irish Social Forum, where they can wring their hands about the poor people of Guatemala or wherever. It's easy to be radical about something far away though. When it comes to anti-working class measures at home, the "Greens" can alway be relied on by the powers that be.

by simon Sat Sep 13, 2003 22:48

how does that principle account for the thousands outside the city areas that already pay these charges. Should they shoulder a burden of cost that should be spread equally amongst all households.

I agree %100 with making industry pay their fair share of waste charges hence the polluter pay principle. I also feel that by introducing a seperate tax it allows for streamlining and adjustments based on amount of waste produced and income of household. I would have no problem whatsoever paying my fair share if I felt the new system was worth it.

The notion of it being a renamed water tax is a conspiratorial theory and doesnt make sense because it still doesnt account for the fact the the cost of waste mangagement IS increasing and HAS to increase if we are to modernise our waste systems.

Its good in principle but I cant see a workable system of only making the 'rich' pay for the services that others use. It doesnt bode well for a population that will take responsibility for their actions especially when it comes to the waste they produce.

When you talk about the 'real-polluters' do you mean that households producing tons of waste a year are not polluting. Also if you actually thought about it for a second youd realise that the waste produced by the household are by byproducts industrial production.Each goes hand in hand i.e. you cant have one without the other so all should be responsible.

And one of the major reasons why recycling centres close is because people choose to not buy products made from re-cycled materials. Its all well and good recycling waste but if there is nowhere for it to go (no market for the by-product) its a pointless exercise.

by No local taxes Sun Sep 14, 2003 01:59

In reply to the comments above from simon.

This is what has happened all over the country.

1) The local council introduces a bin tax.
2) Within a short period of time a private contractor comes in and undercuts the local council.
3) Householders switch from the council collection service to the private contractor.
4) Shortly after that the council withdraw their collection service and give the private contractor a free run.
5) The private contract now proceeds to put up the cost of collecting you bin (in my area starting at £70 five years ago to 360Euro this year and expected to be 420Euro next year).
6) The private contractor refuses to supply smaller size bins because he won't make enough money out of it.
7) In some areas the private contractor charges for the green bin as well as the ordinary bin - households stop recycling (what pay for 2 bins when you can chuck everything into one bin).
8) The private contractor needs continuously increasing amounts of waste (from new households etc) in order to ensure rising profits.
9) ALL private contractors support the introduction of incinerators - not as a more efficient way of dealing with the waste crisis but in order to reduce his costs and therefore make more profits.
10) In all cases private contractors pay their workers less than council workers and also provide poorer working conditions - as normally happens in privatised industry.

This is the process that has developed in practically every council in the country outside of Dublin. Many battles were fought all over the country but little by little the campaign groups were defeated.

In relation to the cost of waste disposal - household contribute less than 2% of all waste yet contribute a far more than 2% towards the actual cost of disposing of the waste.

If the government actually invested in providing proper recycling facilities, it would actually make a profit.

It is incorrect to say that recycling facilities are closing because people won't use recycled products. Irish Glass made 19million in profits yet the company still closed - why - because it didn't make ENOUGH profit for its owners.

The "polluter pays" principle is a load of sh*t (which can't even be recycled). The government are using it as a PR stunt in order to force through the privatisation of public services by the back door. The GP and other environmentalists fall for it hook, line and sinker. One thing that is never taken into consideration is that this tax strikes hardest at large families.

Ordinary people are not given an opportunity to help the environment - why - because it is not profitable. The government wants to dismantle public transport and force people to sit in cars for hours every day spewing carbon monoxide etc. into the atmosphere every day. Marketing people wrap food in 3 or 4 UNNECCESSARY and UNWANTED layers of packaging and then force us to dispose of it. The amount of waste created by capitalism is destroying this planet and they are still making a profit out of us by forcing us to pay for disposing of it.

by pete - . Sun Sep 14, 2003 14:17

First of all not one and I mean not one local politician said they would be bringing in bin charges before they were elected. There is no mandate for this. Now morrissey the local UNELECTED PD senator is claiming he wants bin charges brought in because he doesn't want the fingal refuse collection privatised. Yes the PDs are against privatisation!!!!! Now call me cynical but that is a downright lie. The PDs want to privatise everything. As soon as bin charges are brought in it will be doubled to 10 euros a bin like in sligo and privatised, ITS HAPPENED IN EVERY OTHER COUNCIL IN IRELAND. After we can say hello to the water tax and theres even talk of rates, you're looking at 1,000 a year make no mistake. So in short the politicians lie yes LIE, big suprise there and they are brought in anyway. protest is the only way.
But my friend we will be voting very soon and I know who I am and am not voting for. And its damn obvious to anyone in the area, blanchardstown is going deep deep red.

by pete - . Sun Sep 14, 2003 14:20

But my friend it is in fact worse than this because even if the fingal council had voted aginst bin charges it can be overruled by the UNELECTED county manager. Therefore our ONLY way is protest and my friend it will work. you've seen nothing yet, so far its been the less supported areas, on Monday and Tuesday the campaign is coming home.

by simon Sun Sep 14, 2003 15:55

You see Im kind of confused as to what your policy is on actually dealing with rising waste crisis. You seem high on objection (almost to the point of bitterness - sounds like a socialist worker) but markably flat on counter-policy. I wouldnt like to see waste management in your hands. I would like to see a consistent policy that shows a) where the money is coming from b) how you would instill a sense of responsibility in the population regarding waste. I know your just going to say tax the rich etc. but I dont like the idea of other people paying for my services - its not fair. I think it shows a lack of personal responsibiltiy and basically your a scab. It will perpetuate the 'ah sure, someone else will look after it' attitude that has our country destroyed with pollution and litter etc

You can bring every issue dow to your hatred of 'capitalism' but you dont offer an alternative to the current system which is also deeply rooted in the cause of capitalism. You seem content to live with one form of capitalism and not another.

on the one hand you say the 'real' polluter should pay and then say the polluter pays principle is bullshit. Which is it?

I wouldnt really expect many local politicians to have the backbone to stand up to the reality of bin charges. They are too busy pandering to people like you as a way to keep their jobs. They will form any agenda to get into office and then get hit with the realities of running the country. Especially those independents that run on one issue politics - often hollow in the extreme. 'go on Jackie Healy ye good lad' (protectionist fool)

The reason Irish Glass closed was because there was insufficient markets for the glass. Now would your marked objection to capitalism allow for a market force policy to continue the capitalist cycles of glass production and consumption. The reason it didnt make profits is because it didnt sell therefore couldnt afford to keep itself running. Do you expect the company to run on hot air (or recycled glass).

by pete - . Sun Sep 14, 2003 16:23

so binned on the one hand you are for waste management etc but you tell us that glass recycling plants should be shut down if not profitable? But waste collection isn't profitable either? Sounds like your against the campaign for idelogical reasons rather than practical.

But really its simple, we as residents should pay for the 2% of the waste we create and the rest should pay for the 98% they create. We already pay in PAYE tax, they don't its that simple. And the same goes for water etc.

But one point you and other right wing supporters (which from your last point you seem to be) miss is Its not just the Bin Tax. its everything, we're sick of the corruption of Burke and Haughey and FF and FG we're sick of the arrogance we're sick of the way this country works. The rich with their offshore accounts while we pay for everything. We're sick of waiting for six hours in casulty (if we're lucky) we're sick of old people being left on trolleys for days. We're sick of paying some of the highest rents in europe. We're sick of the fact that the average house price has gone from 80,000 to 220,000 in only six years. And we've be dieing to hit back for years. now we are and we won't stop.
and we will win I promise, you have no idea how angry we are really no idea at all.

by simon Sun Sep 14, 2003 17:20

I agree with you about the need to end the corruption and mismangaement of the country that has led us to where we are now but being angry and stromping my feet isnt enough. I want to see real applicable and practical alternatives.

I cant see how the Irish glass plant could keep going without being economically viable. It is so blatantly obvious how to maintanin the viability of the recycling centers and improve the efficency of the waste systems but it was messed up. I dont see how your or the present governments ideology would allow the process maintain fairly and sustainably. If the factory cant pay its staff, pay its bill etc it has to close down I cant see why you think it should/could be different. Unless of course you expect the state to artificially maintain it and then the onus is on the tax payer to shoulder the burden of yet another mismanaged enterprise. If the obvious markets for recycled glass were capitalised on then the factory would maintain itself. The waste we produce would then effectively be a currency thus the the knock on effect for the household would be a reduction in the cost of collecting and processing the waste. This would lead to closed-loop waste systems and would manage our waste and provide employment in a sustainable way. Thats a very very basic approach but Im not sure if your reproach for capitalist systems would allow for that to happen

My issue with the fact that you think we pay for it in our PAYE is that there are people who pay the charges on top of the PAYE theey pay and I dont think they should they shoulder our burden. Also the FACT of the matter is that the costs HAVE increased and is it not easier for people to digest a bin-tax rather that vague,uncontrollable and untracable rises in PAYE etc.

Dont you dare try and muddy me by assuming im a right-wing supporter. Thats a typical tactic and it couldnt be further from the truth. I was a supporter of the non-payment until I began to think about it. I realised that you are simply operating on a whole load of hot air. You have no consistent alternatives and you want others to take the burden of your unwillingness to take responsibility for your actions.

I am as sick of the corruption as you are and I am probably angrier but in this situation anger ISNT enough and protesting ISNT enough.

by simon Sun Sep 14, 2003 19:27

oh and your assertions on the governments response to the environment is particularly weak and typically socialist workerish

"Ordinary people are not given an opportunity to help the environment - why - because it is not profitable. The government wants to dismantle public transport and force people to sit in cars for hours every day spewing carbon monoxide etc. into the atmosphere every day. Marketing people wrap food in 3 or 4 UNNECCESSARY and UNWANTED layers of packaging and then force us to dispose of it. The amount of waste created by capitalism is destroying this planet and they are still making a profit out of us by forcing us to pay for disposing of it.
"


Do you honestly think the government forces people into their cars each and every morning. They make the choice the same way I choose not to drive and cycle. The government simply comply with the majority opinion and wishes eventhough official planning strategies for cities actively try to reduce the number of cars and car use. There are real and tangible problems for the government because of car use. Primarily public health and the environmental implications (Kyoto etc.)

People choose to buy the products with huge amounts of packaging so they are as responsible as the people producing the product. It is more than easy to find ways around excess packaging. If you had any idea of consumer patterns and motives youd realise that many consumers expect particular forms of packaging etc. and many base their buying choices on the packaging. its not a case of the marketing group forcing anyone to purchase. Think how much companies would save if they didnt have to spend so much on packaging? You have to get it out of your head that every consumer has the same reaction as you.

I am more than happy for someone to make money from managing the waste cycles and processing my waste. If it was properly co-ordinated it could evolve into closed-loop production and disposal patterns and would quantify sustainable consumption systems. In fact that form of business should be encouraged.

i think you have to get over your paranoid complex about the systems that exist....