SIPTU conference issues radical call for a 30 hour working week

by SP member Sun Aug 31, 2003 01:08

I don't know about SF but it has always been the policy of the SP that the working week should be drastically reduced. So I would suggest that the Labour Party member should find out the facts.

The thing is, socialists point out that the 30 hour working week without loss of pay or conditions is impossible on the basis of capitalism. The capitalist class will not concede such a major concession, in fact now more and more the ruling class are putting the push on to increase the working week and working life of workers. Through compulsary overtime, flexibility, attacks on pension rights and so on. All these things have been agreed to and are championed by the Labour Party in their support for 'partnership'. And if people look to the continent it is the social democratic parties, that are ideologically identical to the Labour Party, who are implementing the harshest and most draconian neo liberal attacks on workers conditions.

Even if there was to be a tremendous fight and victory for a 30 or even 35 hour working week in IReland. The Labour Party do not realise that such a victory will in a few years be attacked by the capitalists as they attempt to keep their profit levels. What the Labour Party refuse to recognise that it is only through the expropriation of the capitalists that the working class can maintain on a permanent basis any gains they win.

So if the Labour Party were serious about this they would agitate for a 30 hour week, would end partnership deals, fight for fighting militant and democratic unions. THey would also point out the limits of gains won by the working class under capitalisim and would call for the expropriation of the commanding heights of the economy under democratic workers control.

Will the Labour Party ever put forward such a programme?..... I wouldn't hold my breath

by realist Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:57

This is the sort of bone headed nonsense that means even most working people don't take socialists seriously. There is no evidence produced here whatsoever that a socialist society could afford a 30 hr week any more than capitalism. How precisely could any such thing be financed? I don't recall the Bolsheviks doing it in 1917, and I know of no serious economic analysis from the SP or anyone else explaining precisely how they would deliver it. More empty posturing. And if they ever did get power, no doubt a 50 hr week would be closer to the hirizon than a 30 hr one.

by The ghost of Xmass Past - sinnfein/officialsinnfein/seinfeintheworkersparty/theworkersparty/newagenda/democraticleft/thelabour Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:48

Rosheen Callender not ultra left!!!!!!

by Militant - SP Sun Aug 31, 2003 16:22

All throughout Europe the Labour Party's 'comrades' have been attempting to DECREASE pension entitlements! and INCREASE the working week!

The fact is that the SP have always called for a dramatic reduction of the working week. Unlike the Labour Party we understand that this will not be achieved by motion passed by a bunch of bureaucrats that are totally removed from the people they are meant to represent.

Under socialism the working week would be reduced as a planned economy will eliminate all the useless activities of the capitalist economy. Socialism will also mean technology will be used to reduce the working week and not make workers redundant.

When the Labour Party ever get into bed with FF or FG again we will certainly not see an end to cuts and a reduction of the working week!

by number cruncher Sun Aug 31, 2003 17:22

Labour Youth only has 30 active members nationwide! This is far far less than SP's and SF's youth sections!

How can Labour members call these parties 'micro' parties when they only have 30 active youth members and not much more in the entire party!

Labour is not a party built on active members it's a party built on corporate donations, spin and the right wing of the labour movement.

by realist Sun Aug 31, 2003 20:04

The SP may indeed 'call' for a dramatic reduction in the working week. But this is to confuse agitation with explanation. They still do not explain at all how this would be financed. To say it would be done by a planned economy eliminateing the waste of capitalism is a position bereft of facts, figures or argument. It is idealistic, pipe dreaming nonsense. What, one is tempted to ask, about the waste of the planned economy? Do they seriously expect anyone with an ounce of gray matter to believe that if Joe Higgins was Taoiseach and Peter Hadden his deputy that they would do any such thing? Come on guys, we weren't born yesterday - and you are talking rubbish. Try again!

by mark Sun Aug 31, 2003 20:57

Labour Youth has about 500 members at the moment.

The entire Socialist Party only has about 200 members. Get your facts straight.

by sp Sun Aug 31, 2003 21:02

The idea of a reduction in the working week is not exactly a new one even dramatic ones have been acheived in the quite recent past.
It is also not uncommon for such motions to be passed at union conferences in fact it is fairly standard.
What will be of interest will be how SIPTU sets about fighting for it.
I some how doubt that even the most hardened right wing official would argue that the Labour Party will be a vehicle for this change.

by pat c Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:37

I remember back in 1985 when a broad left was formed in the CPSU (then the CPSSA). A member of Militant was left with the task of finalising and printing th a leaflet for the union copnference.

One of the demands he put in the leaflet was for a 35 hour week. The only problem was that CPSSA members alrady worked a 34 & 3/4 hour week...

by trade unionist Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:38

Well done guys. The SP claim to have a policy on this, but I never heard about about it up to now. SF will not have the guts to upset their businessmen friends by adopting such a policy.

by . Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:53

Wow did they really do that pat, what a marvelous little anecdote.

by SP - SP Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:05

"The SP claim to have a policy on this, but I never heard about about it up to now."

For example if you read any of our material on the Nice treaty it was there as part of our alternative 'Workers' Charter'.

by jt Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:37

End unemployment. This would increase the workforce and allow the working week to be reduced.

Use improvments in technology to increase productivity. Under capitalism increased productivity means more exploitation and more profits for the capitalists. Under socialism increased productivity can be used to benefit the whole of society so on that basis we could reduce the working week.

by realist Mon Sep 01, 2003 13:53

Instead of making us all wait untill the Socialist Party takes power and decides to grant us a few hours off. Capitalist Countries such as France and Italy have already achieved a 35 hour week, so why is it impossible to have a 30 hour week? Where do the SP get their dogma that it is impossible from? And what is Sinn Fein's and the SWP's line on this? I suppose they say it is also impossible untill they take power! These parties would all make us wait forever for even the smallest and most miniscule changes that they would ever make, while availing of long holidays and all the other benefits currently on offer for their own TD's and leaders.

by pissed off worker Mon Sep 01, 2003 14:29

Even if they ever get their hands on power most workers will be no better off than they are now under Bertie.

by Benny B Mon Sep 01, 2003 14:47

Actually when you total up the figures SF would probably be the biggest in terms of votes and active memberhip, considering it is the only party on the Island organised in all 32 counties. Also is this the same Labour Party which has enjoyed coalition with all the main capitalist parties.

by Badman - Radical cant party Mon Sep 01, 2003 14:50

And I'm going to brag about it. What are you going to do to actualise your 35 hour week folks? Brag about it?

by pat c Mon Sep 01, 2003 14:56

My Libertarian Lenninist League calls for a 1 hour forthnight with no loss of pay!

by hot to trot Mon Sep 01, 2003 17:43

you would have a better chance of them doing it than SF or the mad trots, swp/sp et al

by Phuq Hedd Mon Sep 01, 2003 21:22

Some interesting speculation on the site linked here. Ever since the turn of the century we have been told that machines will reduce our labour and enable a society of the future replete with spare time for all. Early speculation by eg. G.B.Shay estimated that a 4-hour work week ought to be achievable by mid-century extrapolating from the industrialisation available at the time. So... what went wrong? Too many gadgets and gee-gaws that we spend our time on the hamster-wheel of work for? Or is it a big scam? Certainly it's worth noting that to the US mass-media the idea of the French 35-hour work-week seems like a ludicrous idea and what's being celebrated for "Labor Day" is the fact that US workers have the highest "productivity" in the world. Me, I'd rather live in France than the USA.

by sp member Mon Sep 01, 2003 22:05

This discussion seems to have two key points,

1. Only labour are radical enough to have a programme for a reduced working week.

2. A shorter working week is not acheivable.

On the first point it is hard to get the energy to answer something so silly, it has long been a basic position of the SP, other left parties and trade unions generally to call for a shorter working week.
It would be supprising if SIPTU and the LP has not had this position for years.
It is fairly standard that trade unions include working week reductions in their annual pay and terms and conditions claims and although there is no guarentee that the leadership have any serious intention of acheiving these claims it frequently happens that reductions have been won for example, the reduction in the working week from 39 hours to 37 hours for 15000 manual workers in education has been won in the last few years.
These reforms are not on the same scale as an overall reduction in the working week for the whole working population to an average of 30 hours or even 35 hours for that matter.
Ultimatly such a reduction would eat into the profits of employers to such an extent that it could only be introduced through a massive struggle mobilising the whole working class and if acheived could only be maintained for a short term within a capitalist economy.
Such a reduction in the working week would not only threaten profit margins it would threaten the very existance of capitalism in Ireland.
The question is are SIPTU and the Labour Party ready to carry this through?

by optimist Tue Sep 02, 2003 13:12

We are lucky these Sociaist party members and other depressives were not around 100 years ago or we would be still saying that capitalism
could not afford to bring in a 40 hour week! Long live the haymarket heroes who were made of better stuff than these 'revolutionary' parties!

by sp member Tue Sep 02, 2003 13:42

Optimist seems to think that socialists do not think a 30 hour week is affordable for capitalism.
It is my view that it is affordable but capatilists will not see their profits greatly reduced without a fight.
Therefore the only alternative is a massive struggle for the 30 hour week and an clear understanding that while capital continues to rule such reforms are never safe.
To point out the difficulties with acheiving this aim is not to say it is undesirable or impossible it is an effort to join in discussion about how to take the issue from a conference motion to reality for workers.

by Jim Burke - SIPTU member Tue Sep 02, 2003 13:56

I'm a member of SIPTU, but not the Labour Party. Mr. Geraghty and his 'comrades' may have the leadership in the pockets of right wing elements but the ordinary members of SIPTU are not for sale. (Well, some of us anyway are not for sale).

by Badman Tue Sep 02, 2003 14:24

still haven't got an answer, maybe I should make it a bit clearer. To quote the bloke I met outside the chipper last Friday night:

"and what de fuck are ye gonna fucking do about it then?"

by G.G. - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Wed Sep 03, 2003 20:20

Figures recently published by Labour Research

Actual weekly hours of full time employees in the EU, 2001

UK43.5
greece41.1
Spain40.6
Portugal40.2
Austria40.1
Sweden40.0
Germany39.9
Ireland39.7

by Non SIPTU trade unionist Thu Sep 04, 2003 14:39 Tralee, Co. Ciarri

Someone who attended the SIPTU conference in Galway tell the rest of us what else happened with for example other motions on things such as the crisis in the health service, cutbacks and privatisation and what measures if any SIPTU are proposing to fight against these. Also curious did any mention of the war in Iraq come up. Would actually like to know what was discussed last week.

by fuinseog Fri Sep 05, 2003 00:46

all the small parties have called for reduction in working hours.