Living The Great Refusal, Part Two

by Roger Yates - Vegan Information Project Thu May 08, 2014 10:56

Here's Some Usual Links

http://www.uta.edu/huma/illuminations/kell.htm
http://www.uta.edu/huma/illuminations/kell11.htm

Caption: Video Id: 2pzfy2izu44 Type: Youtube Video
Marcuse on the Frankfurt School

by fred Thu May 08, 2014 13:25

see here:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/104754

And for some discussion of this divisive transectionalism theory and it's practical results
in the real world as experienced by veteran activist Ciaron see these links:

Attack on the casa
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2013/11/513614.html
Catholic among the pigeons
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2013/10/513250.html

Also, an article on transectionalism:

"Is self-styled revolutionary Russell Brand really just a 'Brocialist'? Is Lily Allen's feminist pop-video racist? Is lesbian activist Julie Bindel a 'Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist' Is Respect MP George Galloway a 'rape apologist'? Welcome to the world of 'intersectionalism' - or what we used to call sectarianism...." Read on.

http://www.metamute.org/community/your-posts/intersecti...arian

Quite candidly, It's a trojan horse. it seems ok in theory but in practice it will more than likely just end up triggering further divisions and infighting on the left as people embrace these notions in typical half digested fashion, as happened to Ciaron at the anarchist bookfair and the Chelsea manning benefit. A wet dream ideology for state and corporate actors to help promote further division on the left and it's adoption by certain elements of the animal rights movement will further isolate them and damage the movement. A win win for the state, our class enemies and corporates who profit from animal suffering and exploitation. In fact, if I was working for the state I'd probably be trying to make up and disseminate this kind of stuff amongst troublesome groups. After reading about the NSA leaks and the albert einstein institute and colour revolutions etc, nothing like this really surprises me any more
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/102162
http://www.theguardian.com/world/the-nsa-files

by angelcake - vegan information project Thu May 08, 2014 21:34

grate useful an thought-provoking links - i particularly recomend the essay on marcuse's views on the radical ecology movement. found this realy interesting myself,an hoping to bring it up for discusion next week - when, insidentaly, we wil be doing alot of practical exersises to share xperiense ,skills an perspectivs on real revolutionary struggle . it should be chalenging ,but i hope it wil be of real use to us as campaigners .
all respectful,genuine fellow anti-capitalists are welcome !

by angelcake - vegan information project Thu May 08, 2014 22:14

hello yet again fred ,
it is a grate shame for the Left in this country that you are using so much of your energy an time attacking us on hear . one has to wonder why this is xactly . i think we hav established by now that you dont agree with us . so why not go an do somthing creative in the campaigning sense urself ,rather than folowing us round indymedia as we try to organise events ? beliv me ther is plenty to do - look around you an you wil find somthing requiring urgent revolutionary action . i hav to say i dont think much of internet warriors.
you dont seem to think much of your comrades in the global fight for justice ,or hav much faith in ther ability to understand ideas or behave with moral consistansy . i feel you could use a little of marcuse's idealism .he believd that it WAS posible to reject the opressive state-imposed version of 'reality' ,an by that rejection to create our own reality an our own posibiliys for true revolutionary struggle. by not doing so,an numbly acsepting the status quo ,we are dooming ourselvs an the world to endles repetition of or opressive history . your defeatism ,demonstrated by ur conviction that ideals wil inevitably be betrayed an corupted in practise , seems to me counter-revolutionary .
by the way,i answerd your questions on the other thred ,an got no response from you .
i do wonder why .

by fred Fri May 09, 2014 15:56

not using much energy at all and it's energy well spent to warn others about Ciarons experiences with intersectionalists in the real world. Also, as an activist in the real world I'm entitled to post my opinion on intersectionalism here if I wish. It is not for you to try to shut me up.

How patronising of you to tell me to go do something. To suggest I am merely a keyboard warrior. You have no idea who I am or what I do. If this is any indication of your arrogance, your treatment of others and your level of analysis then it is not promising. Your judgemental attacks are along the same lines as those hecklers who dissed Ciaron and only serve to make my case about this approach in practice leading to divisive squabbles and infighting.

I will present whatever information necessary to inform people about the dangers inherent in embracing this divisive approach in practical activist campaigns. Don't expect to inject this divisive nonsense into the left without some opposition.

I read your responses. They seemed reasonable, but I doubt many people will be quite so reasonable when they take up these notions as Ciaron found to his cost. The overall effect will be to take the focus away from who the real enemies are and instead put it on criticising and finding fault with each other. They'll certainly have a good laugh at us when we all start doing that.

by fred Fri May 09, 2014 16:14

Angelcake, I meant to ask you, who actually brought this intersectionalism over to Ireland?
Also, do you personally know any of those people who attacked Ciaron and are promoting this stuff
across the water?

It seems to me that agent provocateurs are all over this and promoting it in england.
I'm very curious exactly who got it started off over here.
If some UK agent is involved then It won't be the first time british undercover cops have infiltrated movements over here. I'm sure you have heard of the Kennedy stone affair.
https://www.indymedia.ie/article/97967

They just love discrediting and isolating the animal rights movement because effective animal rights campaigns directly hit the bottom line of capitalists and cause people to question the ugly processes by which food is produced and distributed.

by Mark Fri May 09, 2014 20:49

Joseph Loughnane aka Yusef Loughnane may have brought it to Ireland. He is certainly one of the foremost proponents of intersectionalism in Ireland. Interestingly he spent six months working for a UK based Islamist prisoners organisation CagePrisoners last year. After he left material got into the media regarding some members of the organisation supporting Jihadist groups. The timing was obviously a coincidence.

Loughnane, when he was known as Yusef, falsely accused dissident Republicans of racism when they objected to him hijacking a statue of Liam Mellows as a stunt. Two deliberate provocations. He is a divisive character who will always find a reason to split or split from an organisation. Hes an ex member of the SWP, ULA etc etc.

He might just be a headbanger.

A comment about him, Joseph Loughnane’s political unpopularity in NUI Galway derives from his ignorance and lack of toleration to any opinion other than his own. Without even getting into the politics he preaches his demeanor is so strikingly insulting that it is impossible to debate politics with him. Fair play to anyone who joins a political party.
http://www.thejournal.ie/profile/35807/joseph-loughnane...3560/

Hes a perpetual student who is never short of a few bob. Ten years at UCG!

by fred Fri May 09, 2014 22:14

Interesting.....Thanks for the background Mark.
I think he used to post a little on this site a few years ago.
Intersectionalism sounds right up his street.
Interesting how he has done the rounds of leftist groups while
being very divisive. Almost sounds like an agent provocateur! ;-)
And never being short of a few bob while not actually working.
Always a suspicious trait in activists on the left.
Fees for college on a grant are only paid for 4 years.
That means he paid fees for another six without having a job.
Either rich family, inheritance, or he won it on the horses like Bertie perhaps.
or maybe he is from a Saudi family or perhaps cash came for services rendered.

Reminds me of Madhi Al Harati who did the rounds of groups here too
before heading off to Libya with tons of CIA cash to help topple Gadaffi
for the US, then on to Syria to cause more mayhem and destruction for US interests

Not sure Madhi was an intersectionalist though ;-)

by Sharon. - Individual. Sat May 10, 2014 10:42

Hi Mark and Fred!

This Joseph/Yusef Loughnane character is indeed, in my opinion, a 'shady' type , who professes to be 'angry with the world' but is also angry with those who are (genuinely!) themselves 'angry with the world'!

In relation to the above-mentioned 'Liam Mellows statue' incident in Galway (see the 'Related Link' , below) , it transpired that a group of young lads were hanging around the Mellows statue 'for the craic' , waiting to 'liven things up' , which they apparently did. Joseph/Yusef Loughnane and at least two of his colleagues attempted to use the incident to have a go at Irish republicans, who were at the statue on the day, but it backfired on them.
During the course of a conversation I had with him at the time, he stated (amongst other utterances) - " F**k RSF, they have no use.....(taking) a copy of the Poblacht na hEireann & wiped my ass with it?...... finally, and most importantly, what injustice is occuring in Northern Ireland RIGHT NOW? Absolutely f**k all! So as i said its not my concern, not because its Irish or it involves Catholics or the RSF but because NO INJUSTICE IS HAPPENING!!!!!.....so keep watch for the time when Liam Mellows joins Meteor!" (re orange track suit/prison garb/jump suit).
I don't know what his real agenda is, but in my opinion he offers nothing of value to any group he associates himself with.

Thanks,
Sharon.

by angelcake - vegan information project Sat May 10, 2014 21:06

you are quite rite . i hav no idea who you are or what you do . i hope that if we were to meet i would be plesantly surprised . i am not making asumptions about you in general - my comments consern your behavior on this thred an the previus one ,an i stand by what i said . some grate activists for whom i hav alot of respect are putting so much time an energy into this group . i personaly am also working hard. so im not going to apologise for feeling angry an frustrated when somone takes it upon himself to folow us around the internet claiming we are CIA agents. for you to call me patronising is astonishing ,as is your indignation when i dare to critisise you without personaly knowing you. isnt this what you hav been doing to my friends an i for quite a while ? why is it ok when you ,for instanse,call women "girls" ? this is patronising language . why is it ok when you ask me to corect my spelling so that you can "take me seriusly" ? (a rather bourgouis remark for a champion of the working class , it seems to me .)
in reply to your second post - i cannot say if i know these people ,sinse i dont know who was involvd in the insident. it is posible i may hav spoken to them on a few ocasions i gues. but they are not my friends . let that be the end of the matter .
to take the discusion bak to a constructiv,political level - who ,in your view , are "the real enemies" ? the state ,i presume ? an what is your view on patriarchal opression - do you asume it wil disapear onse capitalism is overthrown ,an that,therfor , we should ignore its manifestations an trivialize the conserns an experienses of women in the interests of 'unity' ?
if this is what you advocate, i urge you to read some of marcuse's thoughts on 'repressive toleranse ' - his theory that acseptanse of any form of opression becomes its own opression .

by Teacher Sun May 11, 2014 00:58

You obviously are incapable of spelling most words correctly and/or are too lazy or stupid to use the spell checker. All you have to do is right click on a word and it will give you the correct spelling. So don't blame it on some disability. I suppose those who can spell correctly or use a spell-checker are privileged..

by angelcake - vegan information project Sun May 11, 2014 10:02

you are probably fred ,but ill giv you the benefit of the doubt !
i am not lazy or stupid . i hav problems with speling an never went to school (let alone a private one) . i find spelcheck options dificult to use ,sinse they giv multiple sugestions with diferent meanings (here/hear , their/there etc ) . i love to read , but writing not so much .
when i am writing handouts for group discusions etc i do get my writing spelchecked , sinse folks for whom english is a second language may hav extra problems contending with my phonetic speling an it would be elitist of me to xpect them to deal with this . but otherwise , i hav come to reject 'correct' speling for political reasons . as an anarchist ,i do not subscribe to dominant forms of speling (an i am not alone in this ) , an as a radical feminist , i am fasinated by the potential of language to work as a tool for either opression or liberation . language says so much mor than what is actualy spoken/writen ,dont you think ? i advise you to xplore language from a radical feminist perspectiv - subversion of power relations through diferent spelings of words an braking gramatical rules is only one small aspect of the whole endlesly interesting subject ! i personaly xperiense some radical femenist poetry as a bold atempt to find a whole new language ,an the xperimental aspect of this is exilerating an inspiring . language is after all,as any sociologist wil tell you, an institution which plays a huge part in opressiv social control ,an so yet another stage for our revolution .
in sumary - i hav come to deliberatly reject convention in terms of speling ,an my dificultys hav become insted a consious rebellion . note my rejection of capital letters for xample - also a political statement ! on a practical level , i usualy find folks can understand me fine in any case .
though perhaps fred cannot ,sinse he hasnt responded to the questions i raised above ?

by angelcake - vegan information project Sun May 11, 2014 10:21

hi an welcome to the discusion ,
the conversation you report with this loughnane character is alarming . as was the video clip of the university debate/fiasco . an i thought i had it bad when i hav done debates at universitys in the past ! i never got anything lik that level of disrespect an intimidation .
unfortunatly , ther seem to be quite a few folks lurking in social justice movements who think this kind of agression is acseptable ,an who confuse rational argument an constructiv dialogue with a lot of inarticulate screaming . i personaly would be inclined to think that,rather than agent provocateurs ,most are simply bullies or people with no real point to make an no respect for others (an somtimes both ) . but who knows ?

by Sharon. - Individual. Sun May 11, 2014 10:55

Hi Angelcake!

I have been unfortunate enough over the years to meet dozens of that type who are, for whatever reason (ie 'put' there for that job by others and/or just loud-mouthed bullies) in a position to do harm to an otherwise decent organisation , and even if they are eventually expelled the damage to the reputation of the organisation they were associated with 'lives on' in their wake. Some of them are, as I said, 'angry with the world' but, again for reasons best known to themselves, are unable (or unwilling?) to work with others in trying to right a wrong. They are a blight on, and for, genuine activists.

Thanks,
Sharon.

by Teacher Sun May 11, 2014 11:54

I'm not fred. If everyone used their own spelling of words then how would we understand each other?. How would communicate ideas, especially complex ones? Theres nothing radical about deliberately misspelling words or failing to use correct grammar and punctuation. Its just laziness and ignorance.

by fred Sun May 11, 2014 13:01

Angelcake

FYI I am not teacher or mark or sharon, or fred fan. Just fred.
A better Question perhaps is, who is Deborah??

Neither am I following you around the internet. Just responding to your attempts to push this dubious and divisive transectionalist ideology under the guise of vegan information on this one single website. So please cut out the false accusations, hyperbole and desist from attributing these comments by others to me. Also, I use the term girls to describe people who are female but not yet adult in behaviour and physically. I would use the term boys for similarly immature males. No slight intended just normal use of a word. Furthermore, I'm not being patronising because I reject transectionalism. I am rejecting the ideology not you as a person. I'll happily stand side by side with you in an animal rights action. Perhaps I already have?. but I disagree heartily with this divisive nonsense which encourages hysterical violent feminists to turn against seasoned activists like Ciaron and also confuse the separate animal rights movement with all this.

If you have a disability spelling then ok fair enough, and I CAN still understand you, but it is important to have a universal standard of communication. There is already enough misunderstanding in the world. We can't all just decide "language is bourgeoise" and make up our own. It has to be common to our audience in order for there to be understanding. I agree the media and governments carefully choose their words and frame debates to distort reality to serve their own ends, but we can use other words and frame debate differently without resorting to some made up text speak which makes us look foolish and gives our enemies yet another excuse not to take us seriously. English is a very rich language. And half the time, radicals are talking to themselves. No need to make the situation worse by speaking in our own opaque made up language.

By your evasive denial, It sounds like you probably HAVE had contact with the "radical fems" that attacked Ciaron. This group are almost definitely infiltrated by state provocateurs. I would recommend caution.

If people take on this transectionalist approach, I guess we can soon look forward to similar targetted nonsense happening to effective activists this side of the celtic sea under the guise of hysterical radical feminism.
And no doubt the further isolation of animal rights activists in the backlash because of the direct link you are making with veganism without taking a vote from other vegans to have this divisive philosophy promoted using their good name to sell it.

Candidly, you sound much more young male disliking "radical feminist" than vegan so I am wondering why you choose not to sell this ideology as an adjunct to your feminism rather than as an adjunct to veganism?

Probably because most true older seasoned radical feminists would also be embarassed by this behaviour and would likely support the likes of Ciaron, and would not be fooled by state attempts to capture Assange or their use of US agent and anti cuban activist Anna Ardin to damage his reputation. Several posted on the page linked to in support of Ciaron in fact.

As an anti capitalist I welcome and support radical feminists attacking the current vapid dumbed down media and celebrity culture which has strongly objectified women and set feminism and revolutionary consciousness back 30 years, but perhaps they should be working together with other radicals rather than attacking and nit picking each other while the capitalist machine brainwashes a new generation of young girls and boys to become zombie consumers and sexualised at an early age. There is a time to constructively criticise each other as activists but not when our class enemies are busy overwhelming us.

But then I guess it's really easy for capitalists to get men and women, meat eaters and vegans fighting amongst themselves with some well placed propaganda because they have some very different perspectives. Such is the insidious nature of this transectionalist approach that this is really what it will succeed in doing much more so than uniting us against our mutual foes. It's language of uniting while in practice dividing, is quite Orwellian I think.

In reality, I am a radical activist likely with more things in common with you than different. And I would agree far more than I would disagree with a radical fem perspective yet already you are suggesting I am patronising, anti women etc etc on the basis of a few text responses. Such is the divisive power of this approach in action.

Here's another link about the "radical fem" attack on Ciaron:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2013/11/513484.html?c=on...ments

by Teacher Sun May 11, 2014 13:37

There is some very disturbing stuff at the link you provided. I'm astonished that these Agent Provocateurs have been allowed a Safe Space within the Anarchist Movement to carry on their attacks. I guess people are afraid of them given that they are so fast to make false accusations and physically attack. Its good that real Anarchists like Ciaron and Seamus are not intimidated. I'm glad that the pictures of the provocateurs are available online. Watch out for them in case they move over here.

I hope the editors will indulge this posting from the link, it clearlky sets out Ciarons philosophy and answers the lies. I don't agree with Ciaron on everything, we part company on abortion, but he is a true and dedicated enemy of capitalism and imperialism.

Reply for the purpose of clarification to M email on Mersey activist list
05.11.2013 17:32

M : "I remember Ciaron O'Reilly from the Ploughshares time on Merseyside when those four wonderful women smashed up the Hawk trainer jet bound for Indonesia. He was an inspiration and organised many events in support of the women.
As I understand it he even helped them with their non violent resistance training."

CIARON : I was in Australia (having been deported from U.S. in 93) living at Greg Shackelton House (named after one of the journalists murdered at Balibo/ East Timor) working on East Timor solidarity - when the Jan '96 ploughshares action took place at BAe Warton. One of the participants Andrea Needham was living at Dorothy Day House in D.C. when we did the B52 ploughshares action on the eve of the Gulf War 1/1/91.

I was unaware that the BAe action was going to take place. They used one of the hammers we used on the B52,. I later used the same hammer at Shannon Airport on a U/S/ war plane in Feb 03.

I had no role in prep for the BAe action......
I came to Europe approx. May 96 to
1) attend a plowshares conference in Germany
2) attend the East Timor related ploughshares trial that was moved from Preston to Liverpool.
(I, with three U.S. plowshare activists, was outside a pre-trial hearing where it seemed to us they were short on local support).
3) to see family in England/Ireland I had not seen in 17 years.

The BAe/ "Seeds of Hope Ploughshares" action was a feminist action and I was reluctantly deployed by the support group to do local organising in Liverpool pre-trial.
Like the Assange/ Manning solidarity work I have been doing for the last 3 years this is not a position I desired. But there were very few people with the skill set and availability to do this work"'

The Liverpool acquittal of the Seeds of Hope was the first one in (the then) 16 year history of ploughshares.
Seeds of Hope Ploughshares trial video (25 mins)
http://tinyurl.com/og2nou9

Two of our people have received 18 year sentences for such action in U.S., some 8 year sentences. Most 2-3 years.

M met me at the Liverpool trial and probably assumed I was involved in pre-planning. Plowshares/ ploughshares commnities are nonviolent and worked on a "need to know basis". (If you don't need to know, you don't ask. If someone does not need to know, you don't tell.)
If Manning had worked this way and not chatted to F.B.I. informant Lamo, he may not be presently imprisoned.

Once a community is arrested the rest of themovement mobilises to accompany them through trial and prison. We presently have the Transofrm Now plowshares being denied bail awaiting sentencing in Tennessee, USA. they are looking at heavy time convicted of sabotage.
http://transformnowplowshares.wordpress.com/
Transform Now Plowshares. People with various skill sets play a variety of solidarity roles. I have been a key local organiser in 8 Plowshares trials ( I have played a support role in others including non plowshares nv disarmament actions such as EDO 9 Raytheon 9.)

The skills I have picked up in these settings I have applied to the last 3 years of Manning/ Assange solidarity on-the-street organsing. They are skills of working with minimal resources with people from a variety of faith/non-faith/cultural;/political backgrounds.
The work around Manning/ Assange has been the most difficult I have done in a political vacuum where citizenry is disengaged fomr the wars their government is waging.

M : " he was jailed for his activities."

CIARON : I have spent 2 years all up in jail in U.S., OZ & Ireland. I was bashed & raided regularly in my teens when all demonstrations were banned in the state of Queensland (birthplace of Julian Assange/ home of his mother Christine).

I am probably suffering from some sort of PTSD from these experiences and am beginning to deal with it - with a Jesuit spiritual director (who has background as a mental health nurse). I assume that some of the people who attacked us on Sat also maybe suffering from PTSD from their own traumas.
I could be wrong.

M : "OK Ciaron may have made some sexist remarks that he shouldn't have done."

CIARON: I am not sure I have. I can be (like most Australians) obnoxious (especially when being attacked) - but I think I am pretty gender neutral in that!

M: "But if he said those things in the heat of the moment and if they were said just when someone had just ripped up his Julian Assange posters, then he should be forgiven."

CIARON: Due to the free speech/ civil liberties/ "right to march" struggles I was involved in in my teens - free expression is very important to me. To quote Churchill (in this case) "jaw jaw is better than war war."

M: "The other charge is that he refuses to call Chelsea Manning, Chelsea and refers to her using her previous name of Bradley. Ciaron does this, no doubt out of his Catholic sensibilities and this is a difficult one."

CIARON: I do not refuse to use the name Chelsea (even tho as a Man U fan this can be distressing!). I have been one of the few people in England trying to raise the name of "Bradley Manning" for the last 3 years. It is hardly surprising that I slip up and use the name I have been using for 3 years.

Names are very significant.
I changed the spelling of my own name from anglicised Kieran to Ciaron after Bloody Sunday when I was 11 years old.
Cassius Clay changed his name to Muhammad Ali, those who first knew him as Clay probably took a while to get used to it.
My position presently is not to use the first name (Bradley or Chelsea) as it creates confusion (some people think there are both a Chelsea and a Bradley Manning).
If you write to a Chelsea Manning at Ft. Leavenworth the letter won't be delivered by the US. post office, because the name has not been changed by deed poll.

In my 8 years of Christian Brothers education and 2 years of imprisonment I was rarely addressed by my first name, I assume this is the same in the military for PFC Manning.
Manning is doing 35 years in jail for exposing our war crimes in Iraq not for being transgender. I think the issue is a distraction, that's why the photo of the blonde wig shot was promoted by media following the sentencing to distract our memories from the mass murder images of collateral murder footage. (A similar strategy seemed to be pursued in the Edward Snowden case as the media went with the "Bourne" style pursuit rather than what the Snowden revelations told us about the nature of the state and the loss of our privacy).

M: "Now some of them may have difficulty with say a women's right to choose, so are we going to say, that despite their good work in other areas, that everything they've ever done is undermined and rendered absolutely worthless by their views on that subject?

Muslims in our movement will have similar concerns so do we boycott events they organise?"

CIARON; Not to mention the Sandanistas! Abortion to anti-war Catholics is a question of violence/ consistent life ethic not primarily a concern about sexuality. For pro-choicers it seems to be an ethical balance between life and autonomy similar to those who pursue armed struggle with collateral damage. Where the growing popularity of sex selected abortions leaves folks is anybody's guess.

The question is are such issues Assange case, abortion the word that cannot be spoken, the discussion that can no longer be had. Is this similar to the Guilford 4/ Birmingham 6/ Maguire 7 any questioning of the state case means (back then) you looked soft on putting bombs in pubs? Any scepticism over the Assange case means you are soft on rape. Where does this leave feminists like Amy Goodman, Naomi Wolf, Gareth Peirce, Vivienne Westwood, Yoko Ono? Why are they not attacked, while I am targeted?

M: "Have a number of anarchists decided already that Assange is guilty of the rape allegations he faces in Sweden and therefore that justifies ripping up Ciaron's Assange posters? Where's the justice in that?"

CIARON: You get better justice from the British state in my experience (eg right to examine evidence, cross examine witnesses). This is a lynch mob approach that will lead us to barbarism. Once you get to barbarism, people will choose fascism or authoritarianism eg. Sharia Courts in Somalia, early Taliban (seminarian) response to the rapist war lord agenda, Provo community policing in West Belfast - all had a popular base as the alternative appeared to be barbarism.

M: "Does it justify verbally attacking and physically threatening fellow activists going into a meeting to raise funds for Chelsea Manning's family?

"And what of the bigger picture here? That the main purpose of last Saturday's fund raiser was to raise money for Chelsea's family not whether Ciaron refers to Chelsea as Chelsea or Bradley?

"I don't know what the female anarchist comrades expected to achieve by their picket on Saturday or how they justified it? It seems to have been a wrecking exercise, pure and simple.

"If they didn't like Ciaron's event, then rather than calling for it to be boycotted perhaps they ought to have organised their own event. Wouldn't that have been a more positive thing to do?

"Given what they did are they not now absolutely duty bound to raise funds for Chelsea's family? Let's see if they do?

CIARON: I believe a better process is a restorative justice approach. Rather than calling the cops (there were assaults/ "crimes" committed on Sat night), blacklisting, escalated conflict, cyber bullying.

I assume that there is a state agent involved in this provocation (We were well infiltrated in Liverpool 96-99- that was revealed by the Sunday Times Sgt Alaister/aka "Alan Fossey" was placed with us for 3 years, facilitated rumour mongering and eviction
http://www.evel.nl/spinwatch/TRReport.htm

after former policewoman Janet Lovelace exposed the Lancashire Special Branch first approach following the 96 Liverpool acquittal..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/programmes/true...3.txt

there were 6 spies in CAAT, why has there never been a public inquiry by CAAT?
Mark Thomas on his friend Martin the spy
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/dec/04/bae.armstrade

The London Met has spent £4 million quid on circling Assange for the last 500 days in Knightsbridge - they and the Americans (and others) have no shortage of cash and personnel, Assange & Sarah Harrison got Snowden out of Hong Kong (the Guardian would have left him hung out to dry there).
The empire is now even more pissed at Assange (Greenwald; Greenwald's partner; Sarah & others) than they were before Hong Kong.
These people need our solidarity

Ciaron

by Roger Yates - Vegan Information Project Mon May 12, 2014 20:59

@fred

What is your definition of a "hysterical radical feminist"?

@Teacher

Your last post seems to have nothing to do with what the VIP are trying to do - explore the idea of intersectionality in relation to animal rights and veganism.

Both angel cake and I have criticised what happened to Ciaran. I'm not sure if it has much to do with intersectionality as we are exploring it.

by Teacher Mon May 12, 2014 23:01

I was commenting on a link posted by fred. All we've got so far is weasel words from you and angelcake regarding Assange and Ciarons support for him.

by angelcake - vegan information project Tue May 13, 2014 07:19

hi again !
poor you, sounds lik you hav had the misfortune to encounter mor than your fair share of these obnoxius characters during your time in the movement. i agree ther is alot of people out ther who, for many reasons , split up organisations with agressive,petty an divisive behavior .
i feel that involvment in social justice activism stirs up a lot of strong emotions ,which can lead to folks becoming angry not only with 'the world' but with evryone around them ,whom they perseive as getting things wrong or not trying hard enough . if this is the case ,the damage they do to the movement is inadvertent but nevertheles serius . ther are also genuine bullys an authoritarians of course - how many awesome potential activists hav been lost to the movement becaus of disrespectful ,arrogant behavior on the part of people lik this ?
then ther are the real agent provocateurs ...what can one say ? it would take a species as screwed-up as the human race has become to invent this many ways of hurting an betraying one another .
we as a movement need to stop the finger-pointing an endles attacks on each others motivation an sincerity . if we dont lik what some folks are doing ,wouldnt it be beter to get out on the streets an create a positive alternativ to it ?
thanx for the link - wil check it out !

by angelcake - vegan information project Tue May 13, 2014 07:39

@ fred
who cares who deborah is ? she hasnt posted anything hear .
i am very glad your not fred fan . that guy was downrite ofensive . i do not seriusly think you are all these people ,of course. that last comment was not an 'acusation', it was an atempt at a joke .
i am hardly 'making up my own language' am i ? i am merely rejecting the opressive notion that gramaticaly correct english is a 'universal standard of comunication' . what about all our comrades for whom english is a second language ? an what about folks lik me, who hav dificultys an lacked educational suport for them? are we suposed to learn to write lik you can befor we are taken seriusly ? you hav alredy said that you understand me . so what is the issue ?
on the ciaron attack theme - i am not being evasiv, i am being honest . i cannot say if i personaly know these people becaus i dont know who they are . if you tell me xactly who they all are ,i wil be able to tell you if i know them . simple as that . insidentaly , did these characters mention intersectionality theory as the basis for ther apalling behavior ?
along with my mor 'seasoned' sisters in the radical feminist movement ,i DO suport ciaron an join with them in condeming the attack on him . i DO see through the states atempt to get rid of julian assange . i hav told you this on the other thred ,along with xpresing my disgust at the states cynical use of rape alegations for this purpose,when others who hav lived through rape are abandoned . i cannot tell you how angry i am about this . but i do not - an cannot - know if julian assange is guilty or not . neither do you . neither can you .
when you talk of how consumer culture has objectifyed women , you are describing intersectionality ! i agree with you that capitalism props up patriarchy (an vice versa ) - this is an xample of how opressions are interconected . one thing intersectionality means to me is my recognition that fighting patriarchal society in isolation wil not liberate me or my sisters ,becaus while capitalism remains we wil stil be objectifyed an enslaved . intersectionality means that the class war is my cause just as feminism is my cause .
i stand by what i said - my subjectiv xperiense is that the term 'girls' is patronising . i am also uncomfortable with its use for young females ,as are many other radical feminists .

by angelcake - vegan information project Tue May 13, 2014 07:43

out of interest - are you asuming assange is not guilty ? how can you know this ? noone knows xsept the partys involved .
i am NOT attacking him or asuming he is guilty . i can of course see what the state is trying to do hear ,an am disgusted . but i dont know what realy hapened an neither do you .
i am also disgusted by the behavior of those who attacked ciaron . you know this - roger an i hav said so sevral times . we dont need to asume assange's inocence to be apalled by these peoples behavior .
what does ' weasel words ' mean ? weasels dont use human words .

by Roger Yates - Vegan Information Project Tue May 13, 2014 14:42

Hi,

I think you raise a very important point. One that I find disturbing. We are being asked to state definitive things about both Assange and Ciaron. I have never met either as far as I know.

As for being able to even try to decide whether Assange is guilty of what he's accused, how do I begin? It is true that there are bound to be some sources we trust more than others but, as you said, no-one actually knows apart from the parties involved.

I agree with you that it is most obviously true that some very powerful people want to silence Assange, and that factor must be taken into account in terms of the claim that he was set up. That he was sounds perfectly feasible to me. However, the truth remains, whether we like it or not, no-one but two or tree people on the planet know for sure.

A second question.

What has this Assange thread to do with intersectionality as we are beginning to understand it? Is this a misuse of the name?

by angelcake - vegan information project Tue May 13, 2014 15:59

thanx roger .
i agree , this is a disturbing argument to be having for that reason - we are bein asked to judge people of whom we know nothing , which is both imposible an unjust . to me , the conspirasy against assange by the establishment is very probable indeed ,an what they stand to gain from eliminating him as a political force is obvius to all . but noone can claim to know for a fact what realy hapened xsept for those directly involved . what is odd is that , when people deside assange IS guilty an act acordingly ,his suporters are eager to point out that they hav no evidense whatsoever on which to base that asumption .what they neglect to realize (or conveniantly ignore) is that neither do they .aparently lack of evidense is ok so long as you agree with them .
which brings me to your question - how relevant is the assange afair to this discusion ,an to our event ? the short answer ,for me , is - not at all . i feel that five things may be going on hear ;
1 misunderstanding of intersectionality . we are dealing with folks who prioritize class war above all else ,an attemts to adress other struggles at the same time are condemed as a 'distraction' from 'the real enemy' .any referense to opressions other than that endured by the working classes is 'divisive intersectionality ' . aparently it is imposible to rebel against mor than one form of privilege at onse, an to ask that others do so is to tear the 'Left' apart . which doesnt say much for the 'Left' , if you ask me .
2 intersectionality theory is taken to be identical to feminism .it is asumed that all feminists are intersectionalists .those wanting to condem this theory then compile a list of anecdotes of disrespectful or 'hysterical' behavior by self-proclaimed feminists ,an asume that intersectionality theory was at the root of this behavior .
3 it is an uncomfortable idea for many that opressions are interconected ,an that focusing on one xclusively is not merely inefective but counterproductiv . hense the characterization of the animal rights movement as 'separate ' . very conveniant for those who know that a broader understanding of liberation struggles would require personal comittments which they are not prepared to make ,as wel as an honest xamination an rejection of ther own privilege .
4 perhaps , by organizing a workshop on anti-capitalist action ,we are invading peoples 'teritory' ? this is very cynical an i would be disapointed to think it was the case . however ,one cant help but wonder.it is significant that no mention was made of intersectionality thoery in these event notises - an that ther was no reaction lik this to the intersectionality workshop itself (which actualy included in its message a demand that vegans reject ther class privilege an think criticaly about lifestyles based on consumerism ) this furore only ocurs when we mention class struggle .
5 i feel alot of anger around what hapened to ciaron ,an the assange afair in general.it seems these people want to argue about this , an to construct us as suporters of or apologists for ciarons asailants in order to do this . ther are very basic set of asumptions going on hear - those who attacked ciaron were 'feminists' of some description . therefor they were intersectionalists . therefor it is becaus they were intersectionalists that they attacked him . becaus VIP run a workshop to xplore intersectionality theory we must also be intersectionalists . therefor we are these peoples 'friends' an aplaud what they did - however often we state our real views on this thred .
an the faulty logic just goes on an on ....

by Teacher Tue May 13, 2014 19:41

"what does ' weasel words ' mean ? weasels dont use human words"

I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt but it is now obvious that your cake contains fruit and nuts rather than angel.

by fred Tue May 13, 2014 20:39

Angel. You continue to misrepresent me and try to insinuate that I am petty and angry because you are "treading on my patch". That's most insulting. As an activist I don't have a "patch". Most activism I've partaken in has had a flat structure, i.e. everyone is the same. I don't have a problem with you running an anti capitalist workshop. I think that's great. I do however have a problem with you entangling intersectionalism with veganism, anti capitalism, feminism, and every other movement. It is not the time for that and it is divisive and the net result will in practice be that it will fracture a beaten down bruised and fragile left even more. Your timing sucks essentially. Plus, the state will be rubbing it's hands with glee and sending in it's provocateurs to stir the cauldron as they have successfully done in the UK, laughing all the way as we bicker and squabble and become totally paralysed and ineffective. I previously supplied a link to show that they do a lot more of this kind of thing than people realise.

These women that attacked Ciaron are relevant because their attacks were coming from a transectionalist position. Julian Assange is relevant because that issue is the excuse they used to smear and insult Ciaron and stifle his information campaign. They referred to him as a "rape apologist", a scumbag and complained about safe spaces and respecting their feminism etc etc. Now I have met ciaron and he is certainly none of those things.

Furthermore, if you had read up on the subject, it is clear that the UK state don't give a fig about women's rights or rape. They have happily ignored hundreds of thousands of rapes in the Congo without so much as a comment. However they are "so very concerned" at getting Julian Assange to Sweden for an interview (he is not actually charged with anything). Assange has freely offered to be interviewed in the Ecuadorian embassy, but the Swedes turned this offer down and want him in Sweden. Very suspicious. If their main concern was interviewing him, in the interests of womans rights and getting to the truth, then what was wrong with doing the interview in the Ecuadorian embassy? Then you look at the US / Sweden relationship a bit closer and you see all the data sharing and military intelligence sharing that goes on. They are so in bed together. Furthermore, Anna Ardin was an anti cuban activist, which generally means links with the CIA. ( and as an aside she really sounds like another divisive transectionalist character ) I won't go into any further detail, but the whole thing stinks to high heaven, and if you believe the US/UK/Swedes really care about women's rights, then I have some old swamp land you might be interested in purchasing. But I digress...Back to the topic.

My logic is as follows: Clearly the state has infiltrated a group of anarcho radical feminist intersectionalists in the UK and has used them as a means of taking out key activists like Ciaron who are a real irritant to the state and it's warmongering, and are supporting people like Chelsea manning and Julian Assange who are real thorns in their side and whom they would like to see "disappear"

My fear is this: That intersectionalist theory will be similarly used by state actors in this country too. People will be accused of sexist behaviour at the drop of a hat and not respecting spaces and being "rape apologists" for supporting Assange or occasionally calling chelsea manning "bradley" etc etc. Now having been involved in Occupy, I know first hand how tensions can build up when taking action against the state and the last thing you need to add to the mix is more bickering and infighting. These things can snowball and destroy fragile movements very easily. I watched it happen. This theory in the wrong hands is dynamite. The left is very fragile at present. IMHO It is not strong enough to endure this kind of thing at present.

I said before that this is not the time to be nit picking each others behaviour when capitalism and the state are steamrolling over us. It is a time to prioritise. A time to put aside minor issues and unite, not a time to focus on reasons not to.

I don't doubt your sincerity and judging by your mostly reasonable responses you are not one of these "hysterical feminists" involved in the orchestrated attacks on Ciaron and others. If you actually read the last link I posted you will realise that "hysterical" was an apt description of them and not a slight as you seem to think it was intended as. Please read the link

Perhaps you can now understand better why I am very suspicious of anyone touting this same ideology in Ireland after the damage it was used to inflict in the UK.

Oh..and I totally agree with the idea that some middle class vegans need to realise that you cannot just consume your way to a better world. It is really not enough. It should indeed be treated as a radical society altering philosophy which does not begin and end with not eating animal products.

I hope this post serves to clarify a few of our MUTUAL misunderstandings of each other's positions

by angelcake - vegan information project Fri May 16, 2014 08:08

no time for a complete response to your coments this morning but one thing does catch my atention - you sugest that , had i 'read up on the subject' , i would know that the state does not care about those who hav survived rape .
wher did that come from ? i KNOW that . in fact, i hav twise xpressed my outrage an disgust on this topic to you . it is abundantly clear that noone in the so-called 'justice' system could care less about the violense xperiensed by women . which is why (or one of many reasons why) i hav made a personal promise to myself to never again engage with representativs of that system in any way.
what did i say that gave u the idea that i had faith in this systems ability/intention to protect women or take them seriusly ? you articulate my position xactly on this issue - that they r sudenly so consernd to bring assange to 'justice' becaus it serves ther own ends to do so .
despicable .