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Fantastic speeches at Occupy Dame St shows up United Left and the other political parties out there dublin |
rights, freedoms and repression |
opinion/analysis
 Sunday November 13, 2011 16:04 by passer by
 Who needs leaders and talking shops, people are doing it for themselves After the March there were some fantastic speeches on topics such as Ireland pulling out of the Euro and grassroots Democracy at Occupy Dame St yesterday shows up United Left Alliance and SWP lack of action on very important issues I
was lucky to be passing the central bank yesterday after the March
which unfortunately due to public transport cutbacks I ended up being
too late to participate on. However there were some fantastic speeches
on topics such as Ireland pulling out of the Euro and creating a more
direct grassroots democracy at Occupy Dame St yesterday shows up United
Left and SWP lack of action on important issues. I have previously
attended a couple of United Left meetings and the speeches I heard
yesterday were far more authentic and convincing than any I heard at the
ULA talking shops. Perhaps one of the reasons was there was no chair to
block important issues such as the Euro being discussed and causing
embarrassment to the party leaders and TD's. |
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Comments (89 of 89)
Jump To Comment: 89 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1Greetings and solidarity to all the brave occupiers. It is great to see such committment and fantastic people of all ages from 17 to 70 willing to put up with the discomfort of sleeping outdoors this time of year for their principles. I was gladdened to see members of the public dropping in gifts of food for the campers and I was very impressed with the spotless and well stocked kitchen on site. Keep up the good work it is making an impact on the consciousness of the Irish people but it will take time.
The roots of today's Christmas traditions stretch way back to the ancient Celtic festival of Alban Arthuan which was held during the Winter Solstice on December 21. The occupy movement is far more enlightened than the begrudgers who tell lies about them and are like a breath of fresh air that will become a hurricane which will blow away all dogmas including institutional churches and political parties. We should look to our celtic ancestors and forget failed russian demagogues such as trotsky and his ilk.
To "Tara protester" at Fri Dec 16, 2011 17:18 "In 336 AD, the Roman Emperor Constantine officially replaced the then several thousands of years older festival known as 'Saturnalia' (in the relatively recent days of ancient Rome), with the festival of 'Christmas'." "At this period (circa 1300 BC) even the Chosen People were just emerging, yet Ireland was a settled Kingdom far advanced in the arts of civilized life. It was not until six hundred and twenty seven years later that Romulus founded Rome. One hundred and ninety years after the death of King Ollamh Fodhla Troy was captured." The above excerpts are from an e-mail dated March 27th 2011 to the then European Central Bank President Jean-Claude Trichet, which for very good reason I believe, was titled "Cultural Genocide & The Global Banking Cartel". The full text of the March 27th 2011 e-mail in question, which was copied to a number of senior politicians and lawyers, can be viewed at: http://www.humanrightsireland.com/EuropeanCentralBankPr...l.htm
there is a lot of goodwill from the public towards the occupy protestors. I think people realise they are different from the usual protestor who wants to march for an hour on a saturday and then go drinking for 4 or 5 hours after the latest march! I have overhread the public on dame st generally praising the ODS people and saying things like: "they dont ask you to join a party" or at least they dont try to sell you a party paper etc! Saying that you get the odd cynic who mutters bloody leftie hippies and other weird comments but the begrudgers seem to be a small minority and I am around Dame st almost every day. They seem to be getting a lot of notice from bus passengers who disembark at the bank and from motorists passing by. So please keep up your good work ODS it is being noticed by the ordinary public and dont mind the begrudgers and members of the no hoper fringe parties.
It is great to see such committed activists who are willing to protest for weeks and months on end in all kinds of weather. These brave people remind me of the Tara protestors who also put in months and even years in some cases to preserve Irelands priceless heritage which was shamefully vandalised by fianna fail and ferrovial. Surely such heroism cannot go unnoticed by the people. I overheard many passers by paying compliments to the courage of the young and elderly activists who are braving the icy weather today at the occupy site.
Me seeing the Socialist Party in its Militant days know that that it did not tolerate left opponents inside the labour party or out,
either speaking half truths about them ,ie careerists or stalinists etc. So I imagine what it is like in the ULA becoming left politicised or being a left opponent of either the SWP or Socialist party. No political room for other lefts or u just leave politics etc. U just have to look at the scottish socialist party which is comprised now mainly ex miilitant & newbies lefts, where previously the SWP being a platform left a no.of years ago or the Scottish Socialist party being ostracised by the CWI & Socialist party of England etc. If you do not agree with either of these 2 parties progams & methods ie on your bike !!!.
Anyway from my political point of view it is great, that with these 2 secterian parties, no serious left current will emerge in this country to tap the anger & ongoing consiousness of ordinary people towards the failed idea of Socialism . Socialism has not worked in practice & never will !!!
Please read the writings of the Austrian Economists ie Hayek etc, for reasons why...
Anne McShane makes some very significant observations on how the ULA is controlled. She pointed out that at the open mike session after the event at the GPO she not get to speak despite having her hand up! and that there was "no discussion, just vox pops from selected contributors"
She also criticises the ULA for not opening up democratically and that "there is still complete control from the top and most branches are not meeting. People will not join an organisation that hardly meets and has little or no democracy. Measures to create transparency and accountability voted through at the national assembly in June have never been implemented"
She points out that some of the 'independents' involved in the ULA are not as docile and easily controlled as SWP and SP members "Supporters of Joan Collins TD and others are pushing for the implementation of the assembly decisions on democracy" For the complete article which is worth a read although i dont agree with her optimistic hope that the ULA can be changed somehow this is the link:
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004640
It is interesting to read what Anne McShane actually said in her much referred to article on this march that ULA members seem so excited about! One quote says "The numbers on this year’s demonstration were tiny" She goes on to point out " the march was made up mainly of the left, particularly the ULA and its constituent parts" So where are all the union workers the SP and SWP are having wet dreams about? As usual they are ignoring the SWP / SP and its various fronts.
"It was the biggest and most colourful event to be held in a long time."
Hmmm , a week is a long time in such matters , I suppose . Colourful it may have been , but I don't think this so-called community event attained anywhere near the 4,000 attendance of the previous weeks' DCTU protest .
Occupy were pleased to support the well attended Spectacle of hope and Defiance event on saturday. It was the biggest and most colourful event to be held in a long time. It was achieved by ordinary people and communities coming together and not by relying like ULA on corrupt overpaid union beurocrats to call out the numbers for an hour. If these beurocrats are so radical why dont they call a strike like the unions in Greece regularily do?
Points taken . Good men and women , each with a strong moral purpose , each following the true strivings of their own good , honest hearts . We are at one on this , Opus .A bit of a cliché some might say , but taken in conjunction with Occam’s Law , the whole proposition does seem much fresher . There is a certain “beauty to the thing” as Gearoid puts it . And that beauty is a pure thing , clean and, yes, hygienic.
Cynics would of course say that the honesty-is- the-best-policy approach is a bit of a puritanical one as well if it gets taken too far in a less than perfect world .I do not share that view . Neither, I’m sure, would Anne MacShane , who is by all accounts a meticulously honest person . If Anne says that there were 4,000 on the DCTU march , I tend to believe her.
Forgot to mention.....In the Sciences it is known as "Occum's Razor".
Occam's law says that the simplest answer to a problem probably the nearest to the truth. Occam's Law says that protesters in Dublin are quickly forgotten.
But you dont need ideology for that stance....all you need is honesty...Occam's Law?You could even be(whisper)a capitalist. Some of them are actually honest.
And I have met too many puritanical ideologues. Its not just a cheap shot. Language does matter. Habits can trip.
Opus, I was referring to Anne’s figure for the attendance at the march. It was just a small point but showed I thought a difference of approach. A real communist doesn’t just make up a figure from the top of her head or simply regurgitate what she reads in the corporate media .
Now why do my puritan detector antennae quiver when I read 'real' fucking anything in an exclusive 'we are the vanguard' mode?
Must be me lumpen gene.
Realistically,people will not even remember the march in four week's time.
I agree with what the the last poster said about the relevance of the contribution from PatC. It showed that at least the CPGB opposed the war in Libya. Gearoid’s barbed comments seem to have raised a few hackles amongst supporters of the indignant happy campers at ODS in regard to the campers' seeming inability , or unwillingness , to wash between their collective toes . Krusty shouldn’t really be surprised that cynics here ,who don’t have to endure the daily perils faced by political activists in Colombia , have misrepresented what Gearoid said about the crusties . As a regular bather myself, I don’t think that hygiene is a totally irrelevant subject to raise on a thread about the Occupy movement and the public’s perception of ODS .
Incidentally, Anne MacShane gives the figure of 4,000 for the DCTU march in the same edition of the Weekly Worker that PatC linked to above. This I thought was a much closer approximation to the real turnout on the day . RTE and the corporate media generally gave the ludicrously low figure of 1500-2000 in attendance . Once again, it’s good to see that real communists aren’t afraid to tell the truth .
I agree with what the the last poster said about the important contribution from PatC .I would have thought that some of the pinkos reading this thread would at least be pleased that the CPGB opposed the war in Libya. That's not to say that the ULA supported the war of course. RBB is after all joint chair of the IAWM
I think this is the appropriate place to put this letter to the WW. Yes, theres profit in War.
Bet on war
The Wall Street Journal of November 28 informs its readers how to make money without working - a system called capitalism.
If there is a war in the Middle East, there is big money to be made by betting against Israeli bonds. The WSJ says: “A $100 million bet against the bonds for three months, combined with a hedging position in US treasuries, would cost $750,000 … the trade would make at least $5 million, and potentially much more, if a crisis erupts in the Middle East.”
War is profitable! Make your bets now! Why would anyone possibly want to protest against Wall Street?
Earl Gilman
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/letters.php?issue_id=892
The number of people at the DCTU march shouldn’t be the main issue . Even if there had been ten thousand marching last Saturday , the trades union protest wouldn’t in my opinion have carried the same threat to the system that the Occupy movement does. The march was another post-crash attempt to turn the clock back to a reformist time when trades unions leaders could pressurize governments into making "partnership" deals with them . The name Occupy is a challenge and rebuke to the system in itself .
Every time I visit Dame St , I see overwhelmingly positive attitudes to the camp from passers-by. “Fair play to them at least they’re doing something”, would be a typical response . And that I think would have been the response of the majority of rank-and- file marchers at the DCTU protest to ODS .The anti-ODS comments here don’t reflect that . I wasn’t at the DCTU march myself but know people who were , and none of them were opponents of ODS .
What New age hippy says about the ULA lack of policies is right . Its supporters should consider why it was the case that the ULA didn't issue any policy statements on Libya during the course of the recent war there . Despite one of its TDs being chair of the Irish Anti-War Movement, the ULA programme [see below] makes no mention of the danger posed by war at all. http://www.unitedleftalliance.org/about-us/
It is a bit hypocritical for the failed political hacks to slag off Occupy for having a complete lack policies. When there is a list of things that the ULA have no policies on. Well either Van rumpoy or ollie renn said the EU has 10 days to save the Euro and the ULA et al have absolutely no policy on this hardly insignificant event! Most young people smoke hash and the ULA has no opinion or policy on legalising it and taking it out of the black market and they are suprised no young people will join the ULA!
Well Gearoid I have experience of over 20 trotskyist organizations in the UK over the past 20 years and I have to strongly disagree with your assertion about undemocratic practices that "it is not a failing of a particular ideology" but rather of the Socialist party/SWP / ULA . It is a failing of all trotskyist parties that I ever got involved in but I accepted it for years like all the other followers. We were brainwashed about the necessity for democratic centralism (it is very centralist but not democratic at all) The lesson is dont surrender your freedom to the central committee of small undemocratic unaccountable groups. There is an really good essay on another thread on indymedia which explores the psycholgical control that they hold over their members which I thoroughly recommend that you read. There are many students of psychology who have made similar points about the mind control exercised by various trotskyist parties to me over the past number of years so I believe it to be well grounded in the work of a number of psychological theorists. This is the link to it:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/100833
So we are not to criticise Siptu it seems, Of course the head of siptu is a former trotskyist and now in the labour party which seems to be the natural trajectory doesnt it. I suppose we are not allowed to criticise any of the union beurocrats then including peter Mc Loone who was on the board of FAS or Mr Merrigan who was involved in some very irregular financial activities? I wont even mention the huge pensions and salaries these union leaders are on while members like me sign on the doleI suppose it will be worth it when these union bosses call for the mythical general strike that the Socialist Party etc is always fantasising about. as for joining the demo when we tried to for a while at the GPO we were not made very welcome were we krusty
Irish Times also said it was 2,000 and any honest person at the demo would agree that there were at least 2,000 present. Which is a lot more than you will find at the Central Bank. What is the point in dissing the DCTU Demo?
The DCTU isn't controlled by the TU leadership or by the SWP. It would make sense for ODS to join in such demos. That doesn't mean you are controlled by anyone.
Gearoid is right about only one thing that it would be a good idea to get back on track! Unfortunately he didnt follow his own advice and he went off on a "diversion from the original debate" which actually concerned the high quality of the speeches made by many non party speakers at the bank on dame st a couple of weeks ago. Many of these speeches were spontaneous and free from dogma and the usual trotskyist rhetoric.
The original post made a critique of the ULA, but Gearoid used his political training to change this into a discussion on "the lack of politics of the ODS" Nice one Gearoid! He also said ODS needed a "program" no doubt a trotskyist program! Just because you dont agree with the politics of ODS doesnt mean that you are right to declare ODS have no politics. As for being bored grand, the Irish people are bored with trotskyist parties also, they certainly dont join them or even go on their marches.
Last saturday is a good example even though it had the backing on the trotskyite dominated ULA as well as SIPTU etc it was barely 1000 strong. although RTE said 2000!. Their stewards were very unfriendly and unwelcoming to ODS when we turned up at the GPO. So much for solidarity Gearoid. Instead of rubbishing new politics and new voices maybe you and the rest of the trotskyist groups should give ODS a chance and actually listen to what they have to say.
Yes, JoeMc as I expected further abuse. But this is all a diversion from the original debate the lack of politics of the ODS and other similar movements and the ban on political parties turning up, just like the Social Forums etc. Look hard and I don't think you'll find your friends Newt and Myers talking about the ODS etc in failing to challenge capitalism. That is where the real debate should be. Taking it down a dead end alley just shows how lacking the "debate" is in policy. Anyway, sorry to offend, but this thread has me bored stiff and even though I am temporarily now in your time zone, and could contribute further where I that way inclined, I won't (yes I left my last can of coke in the jungle so to speak). Best of luck with your ODS but you haven't got the politics to be any more than a howl in the wind and it seems you are happy with that lack of politics and that is why you prefer not to engage in debate and why you get more het up about soap and comments on it than anything else. A complete lack of politics and I will leave it at that.
In last Friday's Guardian , Naomi Wolf wrote about the coordinated smear campaign directed against OWS before the break-up of the Wall St camp :
"I noticed that rightwing pundits and politicians on the TV shows on which I was appearing were all on-message against OWS. Journalist Chris Hayes reported on a leaked memo that revealed lobbyists vying for an $850,000 contract to smear Occupy. Message coordination of this kind is impossible without a full-court press at the top. This was clearly not simply a case of a freaked-out mayors', city-by-city municipal overreaction against mess in the parks and cranky campers. As the puzzle pieces fit together, they began to show coordination against OWS at the highest national levels.
Why this massive mobilisation against these not-yet-fully-articulated, unarmed, inchoate people? After all, protesters against the war in Iraq, Tea Party rallies and others have all proceeded without this coordinated crackdown. Is it really the camping? As I write, two hundred young people, with sleeping bags, suitcases and even folding chairs, are still camping out all night and day outside of NBC on public sidewalks – under the benevolent eye of an NYPD cop – awaiting Saturday Night Live tickets, so surely the camping is not the issue. I was still deeply puzzled as to why OWS, this hapless, hopeful band, would call out a violent federal response."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011...ptOut
Gearoid came out with more soap-and-water-crusty insults to the Occupy camp last night . That's where the personal abuse and misrepresentation on this thread is coming from and not from me . If people don't want to be compared tp Newt Gringrich or Kevin Myers they should stop using the insulting language of the right-wing . The people Gearoid thinks he is describing do not like being called “crusties” , which is an abusive term used by the intolerant right-wing to describe the homeless and unemployed or those who live “alternative” lifestyles .
The internet slang dictionary gives the definition of crusty as “Dirty, unwashed person”
I visited the ODS camp last week and didn’t see any dirty or unwashed people there.
yes I haven't been down to ODS, but do you think it is the first time the crusties have camped out somewhere or I have been in there company? No, that is my personal experience. Ould Newt, no you do really stretch it and this has just turned into personal abuse. And yes the right wing excuses are not my problem, because I have no responsibility for them and do not share their purpose. So cop on. You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel. I expect further abuse but I have been around and abuse from a crusty, well it is like water off a duck's back without the soap of course.
The DCTU demo had more than 2,000 people on it. ODS took a wring attitude towards it. The DCTU isn't controlled by the TU leadership, nor is it controlled by the SWP.
Enough about unwashed crusties. Gearoid is being misrepresented. Its worth remembering that hes a political activist in Colombia. It takes guts to stand up to the state there.
"Go Get a Job Right after You Take a Bath." Newt Gingrich,
"Pass the soap around and think " , Gearoid O' Loinsigh
Gearoid can hardly be unaware that ODS has concerns over legal proceedings being taken against the Dublin camp. The right-wing excuses presently being concocted for the purposes of shutting down ODS are "not his problem at all" , Gearoid claims and then joins in the crusty bashing from far away Colombia - this time making it personal against the campers rather than the camp . His "barbed comment " i.e insult about the personal hygiene of the Dame St occupiers is based on his own experience , he writes, even though he admits that he has not and could not have possibly visited the camp .
The public hygiene excuse is being used by the right-wing to justify the shutting-down of camps in the global Occupy movement . When the police used pepper spray and batons to clear the Zuccotti Park in New York they did so in conjunction with a campaign of media lies about poor standards of “ hygiene” . New York’s billionaire mayor Michael Bloomberg for instance excused the brutal clearing of the Zuccotti Park camp by saying that his decision to call on the police to break up the peaceful protest was made in response to the “wishes of the park’s owners, Brookfield Properties, and his own concerns about criminal activity and hygiene in the camp.”
The excuses used by the right are not my problem at all and in any case when I said it was based on my own experience I was referring to personal hygiene rather than the camp which I have not and could not possibly have visited. It was a barbed comment. So leave ould Myers out of it.
Dont reckon ODS will be splashing out like this. Surely the money could have been better spent. I notice there were no vegan or vegetarian options. All red blooded socialists.
Partying on with People Before Profit
Sat, Nov 26, 2011
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1126/1....html
YOU DON’T have to be po-faced to be a member of People Before Profit.
They like a drink, a bit of grub and a night out like the rest of us.
Richard Boyd-Barrett and Joan Collins are no different from other TDs in that they occasionally entertain supporters in the Dáil bar.
We hear they had a big bash in the Members’ Restaurant last night – 137 people came in for dinner.
Deputy Collins also had a large crowd in the restaurant the previous Friday.
Last night’s menu offered a choice of starter: buffalo mozzarella and tomato with black olive salad and rocket pesto or goujons of cod with tartar sauce. There was a choice of three main courses: roast saddle of lamb with mint sauce; grilled breast of chicken with creamy peppercorn sauce, or baked salmon with tarragon. The desert offering was crème caramel with wild berries; chocolate fudge cake and ice-cream; apple pie with custard sauce, or fresh fruit salad.
The comrades will have been pleased to know that Fair Trade tea and coffee was available, while the house wine was served. We don’t know who footed the bill – did the guests stump up individually later, or did it come out of the deputies’ generous allowance?
That sort of "dirty crusty" stuff feeds the right-wing who want to shut the protest down - they come out with the same smears about the Rossport protesters . It's not just Myers who is coming out with all the unhygenic hippy business .
“The protesters feel that they have been evicted, they say this is an infringement on their right to free speech and freedom of assembly, but the police told them that the conditions in the park are unsanitary and unhygienic, and they had to go while it was cleaned.”
.......... BBC News report on the eviction of New York Occupy Wall St protesters from Succotti Park earlier this month
I didn't say Joe Mc that I was organising anything or traipsing through the jungle to bring the boycott coke campaign to them (you might not have noticed but it is effectively dead). I just said the Colombian and Chilean students were involved in a real struggle with concrete demands. Yes the SWP are undemocratic,but their ability to take over things is due in large part to the weakness of those groups and also of the general left as well. Nothing more than that. The great unwashed term was a reply to someone else who used it. As for the Kevin Myers taunt. Oh dear, anyone who criticizes the left is now automatically referred to in the same sentence as Myers. Oh dear oh dear.
I don't know what waters Gearoid has been bathing in recently, but he seems to have soaked up all the dirt put out about the camp by its right-wing opponents. I had to check the name on his “great unwashed” comment to make sure it wasn’t coming from Kevin Myers . Striding through the jungle trails with leaflets , machete and hand- wipes , Gearoid is probably still so busy organizing the “real struggle” involved in bringing the boycott Coca-Cola campaign to the Colombian peasant masses that he only finds occasional time to tune in to Irish affairs . Seriously Gearoid you said earlier in the thread “lets not personalize” this. So agree or disagree with the camp’s politics -or lack of them – but try to keep it civil . The camp looked very clean when I visited it earlier this week .
My concern about the no-politics politics of the Occupy movement is that it is an attempt at an administrative solution to what is a political problem – specifically , the SWP’s tendency to take over groups ,use them as fronts and then abandon them whenever another cause comes along for which they can supply the posters . The no-political parties solution that Occupy has come up with is anti-democratic in itself and may very well turn out to be a precedent that the SWP -or one of its front groups - could use in the future against challenges from the left
"RBB and others have achieved their lifelong ambitions:election. They DON'T CARE about occup Dame St just their careers. Are you all fools?"
Assuming what you say is true, how does that make him/them any worse than any other political party/member? They all claim to represent the people.
So what you are saying is essentially "a vote for RBB / ULA is no worse than voting for any other political party or member"
( and at least their policy aspirations are more in tune with the needs of the disadvantaged in our society unlike nearly all the rest of them )
RBB and others have achieved their lifelong ambitions:election. They DON'T CARE about occup Dame St just their careers. Are you all fools?
Actually the term about unhelpful was first aired by Andrew from the WSM and not me, though I agree with him. As for the great unwashed, well never has a term been so apt. But then I am probably just petty bourgeoise for wanting to wash on a regular basis unlike the crusties. For that I do no apologize. As i said before i am following this and other discussions from the " comfort" of Colombia and really I couldn't get to upset about it, when I see students in Chile and Colombia in real struggle and in the Colombian case winning so far. So pass the soap around and think.
i think Occupy should keep the consensus system of decision making as this is what makes them different from the politicos in the first place. It says it all when Gearoid runs off with the football and sulks when the discussion isnt going his way. Typical of politicos it also says a lot when they declare that some of the comments that they disagree with are "not helpful"! Presumably only the ones that they agree with are helpful? And they wonder why the great unwashed out there are not joining their little sects.
I wholeheartedly agree with da chair and Sean Crudden all political parties and groups have precooked agendas which are virtually impossible for thinking or critical individual to penetrate. Perhaps the community development way is the way to go and forget about all these political groups who keep selling the people out all the time and have their own looney agendas. public opinion is also very fickle as Sean says and and as we also know the majority is often wrong especially in this country where the media has so much influence in forming opinions. At least the camp on dame street is a gallant attempt to break free from the grip of all political parties and the media who are trying their best to lead us all astray. Perhaps they could tweak the system of consensus a little without becoming just like the parties though.
Absolutely no disagreement on the way SWP and SP chair meetings. They in fact exclude members of other trotskyist organizations , such as myself when I lived there. It is not a failing of a particular ideology but rather of the two organizations concerned. That is not however, what the thread was about. And I agree with Andrew, many of the comments here are not helpful and will sign off on this debate. It is rare that I actually engage in them from afar.
Hi Mr. Da Chair. You are hitting the nail on the head where meetings are concerned. It's very hard to get democracy to work in today's world. There are schemers and bullies in abundance everywhere. Some committees or groups proceed on the basis of a precooked consensus which it is impossible for a thinking or critical individual to penetrate. Others allow their proceedings to become diffuse and lose direction. The community development way is to include everyone but that is a slow process and a lot of people become impatient with it and want more "action." I have found small committees on the whole to be more efficient needing less time and producing more coherent and rational policy. But then unless things are allowed to proceed in a dictatorial way there is perhaps loss of democratic connection. Public opinion seems to be the final arbiter of all decisions even in a quasi democratic society. But public opinion is definitely fickle and often crass easily influenced by unscrupulous and uncultured commentators who abound in the mass media. Basically I think the default position for groups and committees is to do nothing. It is often the best option. As a general rule I think people should be prepared to talk a lot but be required or require to do very little. The idea that the majority rules is accepted as gospel in the western politicl "tradition" now. But the majority is often wrong and most people agree too easily to things they have no real faith in.
I have been to numerous trotskyist meetings over the past few years. Including meetings organised by the Socialist Party and the SWP and recently the ULA. It is not only down to them being "non political" as Gearoid states but it is more to do with the methods of control that these groups employ. In particular it is the way all these meetings are chaired in such an unfair way. They basically pick out their mates or fellow party members from the floor to speak. In particular the ULA make a travesty of democracy the way their SP and SWP chairs exclude people from speaking that have their hands up who are not members of the party. When one pensioner recently politely asked to speak after having his hand up for almost an hour he was booed and almost lynched by SP and SWP members. Some of them were actually screaming for him to be thrown out of the meeting.
On the other hand Liberterian meetings are much more democratic, fairer and better run. However the system of having to reach consensus that is being used at the occupy camp does not seem to be working well in my opinion. It seems to allow one or two people to block decisions being taken. Obviously the trotskyist methods of controlling meetings are repugnant and insulting to any intelligent person but is there any other system that could be adopted apart from consensus that would still be fair and open and also allow progress to be made in resolving issues.
Andrew, the only reason ur saying that now is that the dublin members have now been outnumbered by the conspiracy theorists. Theres so few wsmers that theyre easy to recognise.
Hi Gearoid, this thread was just brought to my attention. In the interests of accuracy I just wanted to say that the WSM wasn't involved in the setting up of ODS at all as far as I know (the qualifier is there because it could be one or two of our members played a minor part I'm not aware of). A couple of our members did play a part at the later start in Cork but otherwise in Dublin, Belfast & Galway our involvement is slight and pretty much consists of doing a couple of workshops and in Dublin two members helping out with facilitation from about a week in ( one of those two has now left the country for a while). The same rules about appearing as individuals and not distributing lit. apply to our members as they do to members of SWP, SP or any other unitary political organisation (probably a more useful term than party if you want to lump us all together). There isn't an organisation really pulling the strings in this case and the assumption that there always have to be is an interesting one to make. BTW IMHO the original post and almost all the comments here are not productive but I don't have time to get into that.
“Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett: hope we all agree that we should extend the maximum support and solidarity to the people of Libya who are fighting for democracy against Gadaffi’s ruthless regime and to the wider democratic movements that have erupted across the Middle East and are fighting against similarly obnoxious regimes.”
Six days later ,on 28 March, the IAWM published a leaflet that showed what the chair of the IAWM meant by “maximum support and solidarity to the people of Libya” i.e. maximum support and solidarity to the TNC , an organization that had been set up by the CIA and that was openly calling for NATO to establish a no-fly zone over Libya .
On 9 March the head of the Libyan /National_Transitional_Council, /Mustafa_Abdul_Jalil had "pleaded for the international community to move quickly to impose a no-fly zone over Libya, declaring that any delay would result in more casualties" Around the same time in March, US Defence Secretary Robert Gates gave his definition of a no-flight zone at a Congressional hearing:
"Let's just call a spade a spade. A no-fly zone begins with an attack on Libya to destroy the air defences ... and then you can fly planes around the country and not worry about our guys being shot down ."
The IAWM statement called for the recognition of this same CIA -sponsored TNC , saying that it should have:
”access to the billions in sequestrated regime funds in order to buy weapons and other crucial supplies, and an immediate halt to the “mercenary flights” that provided Gaddafi’s regime with its foot soldiers. “Here is the Narch 28 IAWM statement
NATO BOMBING, NO SOLUTION. Just eight years after they launched their shock-and-awe devastation of Baghdad and ten years after their invasion of Afghanistan, the same western forces are pummelling yet another Muslim state with bombs, burning soldiers and tanks and killing civilians in the process. Yet again, the claim is that their intervention is a question of moral principle. The passing of the UN security Resolution 1973 which authorised the bombing was held up as an attempt to protect the Libyan rebels and stop Gaddafi brutally slaughtering his people. Why, then, did the same Western powers provide Gaddaffi with the arms that are now slaughtering the Libyan people? Had NATO and the UN really wanted to support and protect the rebels, they could have acted differently. They could have
Sent arms directly to the rebels and dispatched anti-aircraft weaponry dropped weaponry and supplies to the rebels
Offered medical help and followed the example of many Libyan doctors in exile who hastened home to offer help to the injured.
United in recognising the Benghazi based National Council as the legitimate government of Libya.
With 39.1 billion barrels of high quality oil reserves we cannot ignore that the question of oil looms large in this military intervention.
The NATO bombing has failed to halt the fighting or force Gadaffi’s forces into submission. It is actually making things worse.
NO PARTITION AND FULL SUPPORT FOR THE LIBYAN UPRISING AND THE ARAB REVOLUTIONS. The IAWM gives its full support to the Libyan uprising. It condemns the hypocrisy of western governments which despite their humanitarian rhetoric, have failed to respond to the basic demands of Libya’s Transitional National Council (TNC). It asks for the recognition of the TNC, access to the billions in sequestrated regime funds in order to buy weapons and other crucial supplies, and an immediate halt to the “mercenary flights” that provided Gaddafi’s regime with its foot soldiers.
IRELAND SHOULD RECOGNISE THE LIBYAN NATIONAL COUNCIL AND CALL A HALT TO THE NATO INTERVENTION. The IAWM believes that our government should not close ranks behind the NATO bombing of Libya. Fine Gael has made no secret of its desire to increase Ireland’s cooperation with EU-NATO cooperation. The only comments of our new foreign minister on the crisis unfolding in Libya, has been to hide behind the letter of the UN mandate. We call on
Ireland to recognise the Libyan Transitional National Council and call a halt to the NATO bombing. “
http://irishantiwar.org/files/IAWM%20Libya%20Leaflet.pdf
Tuesday, 22 March 2011
Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett: hope we all agree that we should extend the maximum support and solidarity to the people of Libya who are fighting for democracy against Gadaffi’s ruthless regime and to the wider democratic movements that have erupted across the Middle East and are fighting against similarly obnoxious regimes.
Should we not be seriously questioning the motives and actions of those who are launching a military campaign against Libya? I say “motives” because, for the most part, the United States of America and the large European powers were slow in giving full support to the democratic movements in Tunisia and Egypt, maintained relations with the Mubarak and Ben Ali dictatorships right up to the end and refused to support the overthrow of those regimes until that had been effected by the people of those countries, only then deciding to wade in behind the democratic movements. A democratic movement under way in Bahrain is being dealt with ruthlessly by that country with the support of Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates——
Acting Chairman (Deputy Joanna Tuffy): I am afraid the Deputy is moving beyond the remit of the questions.
Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett: I am questioning the motives of those who are now intervening in Libya. Does the Tánaiste not have deep concerns about the motivations behind this military action, given the record of the United States and the large European powers in their response to the other democratic movements in the region?
Acting Chairman (Deputy Joanna Tuffy): The Deputy’s time has expired.
[164]Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett: Are there not significant double standards to which we must point? Should we not question whether the military action is intended, as the Tánaiste stated, to halt the violence against a civilian population or whether it is a cynical calculation by those military powers as to how they can contain the democratic revolutions in the region?
I am not defending the SWP or SP, in fact I don't think that much of them as I already said they shy away from politics. But I still have to laugh at this Statist term. Is this some new hippy speak for Leninist? If so say so, this also implies there are none Statist/Leninist parties, i.e WSM et al
..the acronymic sects..steer around them where necessary..keep spreading the ideas. Only way to break the media dome of silence. And tax the trillionaires down to their socks.
it is clear from the many things outlined above that the ULA SP SWP etc are deliberately shying away from and neglecting certain issues. I think the only TD or politican who would be welcome at the camp would be ming. At least he speaks his mind and doesnt need the media and rte approval in order to speak out on a difficult non populist issue.
I see that one of the policies of the occupy movement at least in the USA is for the reduction of the working week to 30 hours. And to lower the retirement age to 50. This is yet another issue that any of the statist parties dont bother addressing or putting forward. Think of all the employment this would create. I know it would upset RTE and the employers organisations who would rather fewer people doing huge overtime instead of a redistribution of work and money. Is the ULA and the SP and SWP afraid to upset these guys?
I also thought the quality of the impromptu speeches were excellent after the march a week ago. It wasnt just the speeches people were dancing and getting up reciting their own poems and singing anti authoritarian songs and rap etc! That is what happens when the boring old statist groups dont strangle the spontaneity of the people. All the speakers that I heard were non party and got great rounds of applause. One of the speakers who put forward a strong case demanded Irelands withdrawal fron the EU was from the Peoples ovement which campaigns for Irish freedom from the EU empire. at least they are not a party but a movement and that is ok! It is interesting that none of these great parties and their convoluted programmes that Gearoid praises are saying anything on leaving the EU among other issues isnt it?
Now, mastermind??? I never said that, but you are basically the formation behind it, and don't tell us it is too big, it is not. This is a case of the WSM doing an SWP, denying all knowledge of everything. Is the WSM banned from meetings where "parties" cannot go? Statist!!! ha. Have a read of The State and Revolution by Lenin. The text was not a popular one in the Soviet Union and was even quoted by the Prague Spring movement (yes the ones who rose up against the Stalinists). Much admired text by trotskyists and honest anarchists begrudgingly acknowledge its content. have a read www.marxists.org where you can download it for free last time I checked. Wrong again??? I have been wrong many times in my life but I am at a loss as to what you refer to this time round. By the way the WSM is a party (yes you are) that has grown more than most groups on the left, as I seem to recall and as I am told on my visits back. So I presume it is still bigger than Alan or Andrew. In fact it was always bigger than both of them, so lets not personalise this. Deal with it, the WSM and its milieu (yes as a party you also have one of them.)are up to their necks in it.
Gearoid is wrong yet again the wsm do not control ods it is too bjg for that to happen now. Its strange how members of statist groups parties think that andrew or alan must be the masterminds that created ods
It is not true that none of the troksyist organizations condemned the war. Actually quite a few did but it is true that some of the bigger ones were at best ambivalent and worse in the case of the so called Marxist Gilbert Achar actually supported it. But you stray from the point, ODS, is it just hot air? have we been here before? and is there a party lurking in the background that doesn't call itself a party because they are anarchists???? Yes to all of the above.
An Draighnean Donn is criticising the SWP for not doing their internationalist duty against imperialist intervention and opposing the war in Libya on a number of threads on Indymedia. Fair enough but if you were really concerned with Sharia law being imposed on Libyan workers and women being forced to wear the burka etc why do you only single out the SWP for criticism? Of course the SWP were wrong and should have got off the fence but so should the Socialist Party, The SP also didnt bother to organise any protests or marches or vigils against the Airborne bombings and arming of the rebels to kill civillians and workers. So why let them off the hook? Or are you a member yourself. To the best of my knowledge out of the hundreds of Trotskyist Parties in the UK and worldwide, unlike during the Iraq war none of them actively opposed this war. Perhaps the reason for this is as some socialists were saying during the war that, because Ghadaffi was a nationalist the Libyans deserved to be punished for supporting a nationalist regime and that is why regime change was opposed in Iraq but not in Libya
I strongly dispute An Draighnean Donn alleging that Trotsky was a dictator , nothing could be further from the truth. He believed in full democracy within the bolshevik party and was bound by democratic centralism. As for him being feared within the Bolshevik Party, you have to remmember that 1920's Russia was not a country for old men or gentlemen it was kill or be killed. So of course he had absolutely no choice but to kill a few people in defense of his own life and to preserve the revolution against counter revolutionary enemies. If he had been into turning the other cheek he would not have survived as long as he did. Dont forget as well as stalinists the anarchists were going around using terrorism and assasination against the Bolshevik leaders Lenin was shot and almost killed by one in fact.
"there was very few civilian casualties caused by the Air campaign except in Ghadaffi's home town where there was some minor collatoral damage mainly caused by African mercenaries paid by the great nationalist Ghadaffi."
Bullshite. Absolute bullshite.
Well, I suppose Colombia is comfortable, at least there are no hippy camps here, so that sort of does it for me. I don't know the future, but my comment was based on experience in Ireland, Britain and Catalonia. As for Social Forums being different, well no they aren't. No religions, get real. Anyone can turn up except those who belong to a party (as opposed to an organization which is why the Anarchos use the term movement etc, even though they are also a party in all but name.) The social forms had the same logic and rules, whine and moan and dream with anyone except the left.
Unfortunately, I was eating my dinner when I read SWP Supporters post - and nearly choked on it with laughter when I read what he had to say for himself. Does SWP Supporter not know that Trotsky was a dictator, who was feared within the Bolshevik Party as someone who would kill you if you rubbed him up the wrong way. For all that, Trotsky achieved quite alot. Which is more than we can say for his so called latterday followers - who completely ignore his writings on imperialism. If Joe Higgins and Ciarán Allen had bothered to read Trotsky, they would have known that they should have supported Gaddafi against Nato and their Libyan comprador stooges. Im afraid that the ULA has been so damaged by its support for racist lynch mobs in Libya, and their support for a gang who want to privatize the Libyan economy, that they will never be taken seriously again in Ireland - not by educated people anyway.
Gearoid is bang on the money. As the great american Trotskyist James P. Cannon said "It is the program that makes the party." What hope of any success have the poor hippys and lumpens at the occupy camp on Dame street got without one?
Also it is any wonder they cant make any decisions and everything gets held up without democratic centralism? They cant agree even about the most minor things such as allowing union banners!
..ideologically hidebound and shortsighted. Supporting NATO's agenda is the greater threat by far in the current escalations...and your downplaying of the accompanying casualties and brutality is blinkered.
and the major mercenaries are NATO.
comparing ODS with world social forums is a pure straw man argument.
They are two different things. ODS is not run by any religions.
Nice to know you know everything in advance before you actually do something Gearoid. Must be handy. Lottery numbers anyone? We could use the money to build up the Irish left perhaps?
Talk about going in with an open mind. NOT
yes, you could drop down to Dame street as an individual and see how it goes. Here is how it would go. You turn up and listen and the more articulate speak more and get listened to and you have no structure through which to participate and then the back room crowd (the nature of the beast) are the ones who make all decisions in reality. banning organizations turning up and participating is the opposite of democracy. We have of course been here before with the World Social Forums, where parties were banned from participating but the NGOs such as Trocaire were not. So the Catholic Bishops were given a voice and the organized left were not. Just as well as child abuse was never a major topic at them. I once was invited to speak at the one in London on Colombia only to find a back room boy sabotaged the event by changing the room at the last minute because he didn't like what were saying. he of course, represented an NGO. The room overflowed and a security guard took matters into his own hands and opened a bigger room and TOLD us for fire safety we had to change. There you go, a security guard had more say than anyone else. Fortunately he was nice about it all. Seattle and all of that was supposed to be grassroots democracy at work and where did that get us? Oh yes the Bishops, it got us them. yes Elder Trot I am still around, though about 5000 miles away. I tune here every once and a while to see that the more things change the more they stay the same as evidenced by this debate.
The so called "Arab Spring" was funded by the CIA, and achieved all the CIA's objectives. Remember that this is the second "Arab Spring." The first time this term was used was when the Western imperialists sponsored a series of Arab revolts to break up the Ottoman empire, after WW1, and replace it with a series of "royal" Arab families, who would act as Western puppets. Lawrance of Arabia was the most famous Anglo-Saxon adventurer of that time. The "Arab Spring" device has been incredibly effective in duping the Western Left, and co-opting its support for the attack on Libya - the jewel in the crown of the "Arab Spring" adventure. The price of duping the Western Left has been quite small. It was always inevitable that a few hippies and other well meaning - but harmless - folk would try to reproduce Tahrir Sqare in Western cities. The Western ruling class were willing to let them have their bit of harmless fun - for a while. But, now that Libyan oil is "in the bag," the threat of the African Central Bank and the Gold Dinar has been smashed, and the gateway to the re-conquest of Africa is open, the West has no need to indulge the hippies any longer. The "law" is being used to move them on - just like any other minor nuisance.
Great to see that you are still around Gearoid. I remmember you from the old days when we were both selling rival publications. Of course you are correct to point out that the main problem with the SWP is that they are not nearly political enough. They have brought their subjective idealism into the ULA and have in an unholy alliance with the reformist Socialist Party prevented the ULA from developing a Trotskyist Programme. Both reformist parties have deeply flawed versions of democratic centralism and therefore make incorrect decisions and adopt reformist positions on many issues. Of course the SP have abandoned key aspects of Trotsky's programme back in their Militant days when they were ingratiating themselves to the labour party.
"Lefty are you having ur rags or what boy? concerned feminist here loike...mooncup in the post like..."
well, compared to this kind of argumentative style, I'm fucking socrates! Doing and thinking are not mutually exclusive actions. Of course you need both. However handing over your thinking to some authority in a political party (such as FG or the SWP) is the antithesis of thinking for yourself. History has shown that expecting that approach to work is even more of an exercise in futility. If we are ever to improve things then taking away centralised power and taking a more hands on approach in our democracy is the order of the day
If the structure itself fails, you need to discuss the structure itself. To be outside the current structure is surely the point?
Doing and thinking are not mutually exclusive. And having done some thinking for yourself, coming to different conclusions to marxists (or republicans!) does not make you stupid and non thinking. Thats just plain arrogant if that's what you believe. Both political parties / movements have had ample time to change our society with little success. It's time to try another approach.
Not surprising to see some sour grapes from marxists and republicans and to see them having a go or trying to hijack. Typical blinkered thinking. Instead of trying to destroy, why not just give your support as individuals and see where it goes?
There is still mutual self interest involved. Surely you can at least see that?
I think I should clarify, when I quoted the Chilean students' leader and the Colombian students, what I meant is that they were not indignant, they had a political programme, which is the complete opposite of the Occupy Dame Street Crowd (which is barely able to occupy the square of the Central Bank). There is no beauty to this movement. It does, but does not think and has nothing to say. If I want to fly, I could think about it and take flying lessons or just buy a ticket to London, or I could DO, without thinking and wrap a sheet around me, flap it vigorously and jump off Liberty Hall. I would turn a brighter shade of ketchup and would have DONE, but would still not have flown. The occupy crowd unlike the students in Colombia , who beat the government to a standstill this week, do not want to be political i.e. think and have nothing to say, except a long whine that goes something like the fabled slogan of "Down with this sort of thing". The problem with the SWP is not that they are political but that rather they frequently abandon any pretence to being so. I was not endorsing the Occupy crowd but rather criticising them.
Lefty are you having ur rags or what boy? concerned feminist here loike...mooncup in the post like...
Yeah...What ODS really need is the guiding hand of trotsky to help them. i.e. an SWP takeover, followed quickly by a brief spate of paper sales, one or two new idealist recruits, followed by a rapid journey of whats left of the movement down the toilet when people realise exactly what's happened. There, another troublesome grassroots movement dead in the water.
Personally, If I was a capitalist, I'd pay good money for those kind of results!!
The song mentioned by pensioner is actually called The working class can kiss my ass I've got the foreman's job at last.
It has been around for ages and I think Billy Bragg sings it. It does sum up the type of careerist politicans on the left who sell out and become good little parliamentarians.
I had a look at the videos at the ODS videos. While I didnt think they were aggressive or disorganised or even predominantly middle class. I would say tthat ODS are what we would have called the lumpen proletariat in the past plus a sprinkling of hippie types which are impossible to organise in any meaningful way. ODS seems to be a little smaller but this is probably more to do with the fact that they lack Trotsky's analysis of the necessity of a party guided by scientific socialist principles. Bear in mind that they are devoid of the guidance of proper party organisational structures including democratic centralism. Without this necessary discipline the blockers that you non aligned talked about will prevent any further growth.
I left Labour because of their broken promises and their bending over backwards to brussells and the EU. I believed Ruairi Quinns socialist speeches when he was know as Ho Chi after the great revolutionary in Vietnan. However our Ho chi was quickly seduced by wealth and power when he got himself elected as a parliamentarian. I can see the same process repeating itself with Richie Boyd Barrett and with some of the other ambitious lefty political up and comers in the ULA!
It is not just the important issues above that the ULA are silent on. Unlike Ming to his credit they have not called for legalisation of cannabis. I know for a fact that at least a number of them used to smoke more than the odd joint or 2 at various parties and social occasions that I have attended over the years. However they wont go public on this issue. How is that for hypocracy and what other issues in addition to the ones mentioned by other members of the public above are they downplaying or being silent about just to further their own careers?
Isn't it amazing the amount of time spent on how much is written on the dislike for RBB and the ULA. You should look at the videos for the ODS, it's turned into an aggressive and disorganised middle-class bunch of brats. They even invited Eamon Ryan, the guy who backstabbed the shell to sea campaigners. Its simply growing smaller according to the marches. The only saving grace is the occasional gawper who has replaced ppl who have left because of the blockers and the frustration.
I have to agree with pensioner. There are dangerous signs of "socialist" parties and TD's like RBB going down the same road that we in the Workers Party/ DL have traversed. The slippery slope can set in very early on when the electoral breakthrough is made. Compromises are made is order to become electable. This is almost certainly why RBB kept his gob well shut during the NATO bombings that killed an estimated 30,000 Libyan civillians and destroyed the infrastructure of the most developed country in north Africa.
He and all the United Left Alliance TD's are saying nothing about the crisis of the Euro as pensioner also said. They are not calling for our own currency and they seem to have no ideas or strategy at all in relation to the Euro currency. As they have said nothing on it for more than a year now we have no choice but to accept that they are in favour of spending even more billions to prop the failed Euro up. They do criticise in a populist way the cutbacks needed to save the Euro but they dont make the connection between the two things.
I am old enough to have seen a lot of socialist parties sell out their principles and members. Democratic Left is only one example and look at where they are now! In the labour party. I can see history repeating itself once again with Socalist TD's like Mr Boyd Barrett afraid to speak up against the Nato war in Libya for the last six months or so. He is also extremely silent on the Euro crisis for the last six months or more. Who is he afraid that he will upset? Why wont he speak out on these issues. Isnt it strange his silence roughly dates from when he was elected as a well paid full time politican. He reminds me of the old song which goes something like "the union can kiss my ass I have got the bosses job at last..."
Gearoid is absolutely correct for too long the left in Ireland has been pontificating and making long winded speeches. On the numerous occasions the Militant Tendency or the SWP called for the workers to go on general strike It never came to anything. Workers seen through it as rhetoric. Gearoid is also correct to say that we need proposals and to do. That is the beauty of the Occupy movement they are doers and they dont go overboard on listening to the leaders speeches and selling the party paper or waiting around for instructions and orders from the central committee. They just get out on the streets and do it.
I am reminded of the comment by the Chilean student leader when she said they weren't indignant, they had a programme. Colombia's students are on the verge of a major victory over the State when the education reform package will be abandoned in congress on Wednesday. They also had proposals, they didn't dream, they did.
I have become disillusioned with the lack of democracy in the ULA. The conferances are stage managed and the chairing is lousy. I have seen the chair refuse to let certain topics be discussed. I witnessed an elderly gentleman being shouted down and denied the right to speak at the founding meeting in the Gresham Hotel. Maybe this was an omen of things to come? I did vote for the ULA in the last general election but I have become very disillusioned with them since they entered Dail Eireann. In the middle of a massive Eurozone crisis they have nothing to offer on this issue except silence and more silence. As labour is being devalued why does the ULA refuse to call for the Euro to be devalued instead or why not call for pulling out of it altogether? previously Richard Boyd Barrett was excellent for organising anti war marches before he was elected a TD. He organised dozens of marches against the wars in Bosnia and Kosovo that were carried out by NATO. He was anti regime change in Iraq However since he got his big salary he couldnt be arsed to even help organise one march against Nato's regime change attacks on Libya. At least the Occopy guys are not staying in the nice warm comfortable luxory of Leinster House they are out on the cold streets where Barrett and Higgins used to be long ago before they got their big jobs and got too cozy to raise the issues RTE doesnt like or approve of.
The beginning of change, real change, is the thought or dream of what a better future may look like. It isn't always possible or even desirable, however, it is important because it is the assertion on expression of freedom of thought, and that is mighty important. Nothing wrong with naivety or idealism either. They are not oppressive. Be positive because there are things to be positive about, be critical, because that too is important. Cynicism, however, is pointless. We, as a species, are in the shit up to our receding hairlines. Dreams won't get us out of it, but they might be a beginning, a mustard seed.
I agree with opus any forum that can be used to encourage debate should be used. It is great that ordinary people are coming together without the need for intermediaries such as TD's and political parties to water down their demands. You can be sure The United Left Alliance and other parties will not call for discussion or allow free discussion on leaving the Euro or other issues that the deem taboo. However people on the street are talking about these and other issues. So lets be really independent and open up the debate instead of trying to shut it down before it has a chance. I get the impression that 'independent' wants the occupy camp to fail from the tone of his comments!
lotsa negativity there for the talking shop to digest...why dont you tell us what YOU do besides pissing on every inarticulate meeting of people looking for common ground to begin some kind of resistance; and dreaming of a better world where we'll all hang on your superior words of wisdom?
And isn't this a talking shop?What are YOU doing camping here?
Personally I think they should amalgamate and occupy Montrose to demand representative debate for the exploited classes, not propaganda for IBEC and the trillionaires...but they have to start somewhere..and after twenty years of neo-liberal indoctrination the location is not necessarily the worst.
Or if you are so sure of your solutions, why are you not down there recruiting them to your logic?
the ODS is a talking shop that has achieved next to nothing. it is apolitical and it is afterall just a camp.
when the bank decides that they have had enough you can be sure that the nice gardai who the ODS people
can be seen speaking to almost on a daily basis will be on hand to beat the shit out of any one who resists
the ODS rejection of politics is the main problem,and the left is giving this too much time,articles like
http://www.wsm.ie/c/occupy-movement-assembly-process-re... ; are really pushing it,people on the left seem to be falling over themselves to tell us what a progressive thing this is,can someone tell me what they actually do other than
camp outside a bank,dreaming of a better world? this occupy movement is not the same as the ones in new york oakland etc
people there and people here are not living in the same circumstances.
I have been by the central bank a few times and I found the speeches and contributions to be very good, even the spontaneous ones. Keep up the good work guys and gals and keep talking about the topics like Ireland leaving the euro and hopefully the EU as well that the politicans and parties refuse to discuss. The people are beginning to listen. Dont listen to the media become the media