Rally for Choice!

by JoeMc Sun Jul 03, 2011 15:44

The anti-abortion rally in Dublin yesterday attracted several thousand people from across the country. Activists from SPUC and Youth Defence were in attendance as well as families, religious groups and robed priests ,monks and nuns .They marched behind a banner addressing the taoiseach , “ Enda , keep your pro-life promise “ .

Dublin pro-choice activists held a lively counter demo at the Spire in O’Connell St . Pro-choice activist Suzanne Lee interviewed on NewsTalk radio said that consistent opinion polls show that the majority of Irish people favour a women’s right to choose in most circumstances. http://www.newstalk.ie/2011/news/5anti-abortion-and-pro...in29/

RTE news gave the figures of two thousand at the anti- abortion march and up to three hundred attending the pro-choice counter demo. As can be expected supporters of the march said that the attendance figure for the rally was much higher - see for instance comments here : http://www.thejournal.ie/gallery-pro-life-and-pro-choic...2011/

The anti-abortion rally had been actively supported by the catholic church hierarchy in preceding weeks . Pope Benedict XVI sent organizers and participants a message offering his support and prayers .

by Media watcher Mon Jul 04, 2011 01:52

I wish I had time to assemble press cuttings and recorded news reports about this recent anti-abortion rally. I'd really be interested to know what proportion of the coverage was devoted to the marchers and what proportion devoted to their estimated 300 opposers. Statistics about numbers who turn out at marches of various kinds are guesstimates by assigned journalists, and may often be coloured by the editorial leanings of the papers concerned. Estimates by committed participants and supporters in partisan publications and websites can also be based on finicky calculations.

by JoeMc Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:55

Good point ,Media Watcher. A university department that deals with social statistics or demographics should take on the job of measuring turn-out at rallies like this.

by Media watcher Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:25

Well here is a link to the Irish Times report on the event and mentioning the counter rally. The number on the anti-abortion rally is stated to be 5,000 and this is more than the estimate in the post at the head of this thread. The IT account estimates the counter demonstrators at 200 persons, which is slightly smaller than the 300 estimated above. Again I query how the reporter(s) made the estimate of five thousand and how the 200 counter-people were measured.
There's a colourful picture, taken from above, of a section of the big march, showing lots of yellow balloons, red placards and some smiling faces of student-age girls and some men's faces. The report said children were among the marchers.

But read it here: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0704/1....html

Other media guesstimates on this event, if they are sharply divergent, might indicate further difficulties about guesstimates. I don't know that turnout numbers always prove much anyway, unless they reach the hundreds of thousands and sometimes millions as on 14th February 2003 before the launch of the British-American attack on Iraq.

No, I don't think academics should grab lots of research funds to do 'scientific' counts of public rallies on abortion and other current issues nationally and worldwide. Academic literature is often painful prose to read.

by Mary Mon Jul 04, 2011 16:06

Countering the "Pro-Life" Rally - Pro-Choice Counter Demonstration
WSM and other pro-choice activists took place in a counter demonstration to the “Rally for Life” which took place in Dublin yesterday. The anti-abortion rally was organised by Youth Defence (including “The Life Institute”(previously Mother & Campaign – an outgrowth of Youth Defense) and Belfast Based "Precious Life". Approximately 2,000 people seem to have attended. The pro-choice counter demonstration, organised at short notice was still attended by around 300 people. Many attending the anti-abortion rally came from all over Ireland and even included a small group of migrants from the Philippines. There were some tense exchanges between pro-choice campaigners and anti-abortion marchers.
Read on at http://www.wsm.ie/c/pro-life-rally-pro-choice-counter-d...ation

Anti-choice acid house demonstration - how Queer!
After spending tens of thousands of euro in promotion Youth Defense's anti-choice march finally took place in Dublin. Despite the free coaches and months of preparation even RTE admitted that only 2-5,000 took part, making it a tiny fraction of the Pride Parade of the previous Saturday. And from observation a large part of that crowd was composed of unhappy looking young children dragged along by relatives, priests, monks, nuns and the very elderly.
Read on at http://www.wsm.ie/c/anti-choice-youth-defense-dublin-march

If your on Facebook there are 120 photos from the demonstration at https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2448818422043...59140

(If you don't many of these will soon be included with the above articles as a slideshow - just takes a bit longer to put together)

by JoeMc Mon Jul 04, 2011 19:42

I'm really talking about getting an accurate assessment for numbers at marches. University departments already get funding . I would have thought this would be a useful public service. Otherwise we have to rely on the police , march organizers or possibly biased media outlets for figures.

The figure RTE gives on their website at the moment for attendance at the march is “ around 5,000 people” On Saturday they were saying 2000 people. I took that figure from the RTE site on Sunday morning for my previous post . The figure of 2000 is still written under the photograph of the march which accompanies the report. see: http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0702/abortion.html

by JoeMc Fri Jul 08, 2011 17:13

According to one report I have read, a leading member of the Workers Party in Dublin took part in the anti-abortion march. Members of eirigi and RSF also marched with the anti-abortionists according to an eye- witness account from somebody present at the counter demo at the Spire.

In 2009 Choice Ireland conducted a survey of Irish political parties’ positions on abortion rights . http://www.choiceireland.org/node/60 . Out of the republican groups contacted only eirigi replied - saying that the party had not yet developed a formal position on the matter.

Organizers of the All-Ireland Rally for Life – i.e. the Roman Catholic Church – give an attendance figure of 7,000 for last week's rally. They boast on their website http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/dublin-rally-for-life-...ccess that the “huge turnout” should serve as warning to the government against introducing legislation to legalize abortion in Ireland .Speaking at the rally Carolyn Johnston, of Youth Defence, demanded the government listen “to the pro-life majority who say Yes to Life and No to abortion.”

The presence of the Workers Party election candidate at such a rally should surely call into question his commitment to his own party’s position on the separation of church and state:

“The Workers’ Party demands complete separation between church and state and by that we mean there is no place for the special position of any church, denomination or religious belief in the public life or institutions of the state. The Workers’ Party is committed to the primacy of a secular democratic society based on principles of equality and justice and supports the need to defend the state against all those who seek privileges and special treatment on the grounds of their religious belief, whatever that belief”.

by voter Sat Jul 09, 2011 03:02

I am not surprised that a Workers Party activist was spotted on that anti-abortion protest. It is possible for political activists on the left to be antiabortion on ethical grounds. Actually this was the case during the long radical history of Britain in the 19th century. Chartists and others tended also to sympathise with the Temperance movement. 19th century Quakers, who paraded against the slave trade or in favour of the old age pension, also spoke out against abortion.

If that Workers Party activist happens to be a pacifist then he/she could logically be against abortion on the grounds that he/she believes that abortion is the destruction of life. Belief in pacifist or nonviolence principles may come from Catholic belief system or it may come from other ethical sources - buddhism, vegetarianism etc. I therefore question Joe's above assumption that to be pro-choice means a person is correctly taking a church-state separation line; while to be antiabortion a person is taking the church side of the dividing line. Isn't it possible for an agnostic to reason ethically that abortion is not consonant with a nonviolent ethic?

This is not just about the Workers Party. It is about whether socialists and liberals can have personal ethical principals and spiritual or aesthetic beliefs and preferences that differ from pronounced party lines. It is about whether left parties, groups and ideologies can adequately cater for individual variation among members, and whether radicalism can blend into the general culture.

by JoeMc Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:13

I do think a pacifiist can reason along those lines ,Voter . Many decent Catholics , Muslims etc are opposed to abortion on ethical grounds , which is their choice.
The leading Workers Party member attended an anti-choice rally organized by the Catholic Church while his party is committed to secularism - the non-interference by unelected ,hierarchical religious bodies in the governance of the state.

by The Mekon Sat Jul 09, 2011 13:04

The WP member in question is entitled to his personal views and to attend such demos. However I would argue with him that this was the wrong one to attend. The organisers of the demo, YD & PL are opposed to contraception, divorce, sex education, civil unions, LGBTQ rights etc.

They are not just an anti-abortion front, they have an extremely reactionary agenda. Some of the YD elements have fascist links. YD also have a lot of racists as members. RAR leafletting sessions were often disrupted by YD members coming over and spouting racist nonsense. Known fascists were on the demo.

So, I think the WP member in question should give an answer as to why he aligned himself with such reactionaries.

by sceptic - n Mon Jul 11, 2011 22:03

Eirigi should publish where they stand on the abortion issue, they've been around long enough. I am not surprised their members were in the pro-life rally. I am very critical of the WSM who had members there at the rally working with eirigi over the years and know that people have lost interest in WSM as eirigi take over demonstrations with macho behaviour such as doing their Mexican stand-off nonsense at the dail during the anti-bloc protests leaving the Dublin branch and the supporters bewildered at their antics. And by the looks of Eirigi members on demos there are few women in it. Eirigi formed too late to catch up with the Sinners who are now safely cocooned in the Dail and gaining momentum down south regardless of the cuts they endorse in Stormont and share the same campaigns as SF, shell to sea, water tax etc. One token female councillor for Eirigi does not influence other women to join. Also what is it with the ULA and eirigi that they do not form a pro-choice policy? If the ULA do announce a pro-choice policy and eirigi don’t, they will no longer look so different from the sinners. Eirigi = the new workers party – no power and no influence.

by Nora B Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:41

I will have to refute what you say sceptic as total nonsense ,on the thomas st, eirigi march i was on there was large numbers of women and children and what you call macho behavior I would call good organisation and disipline as marchers were kept in line keeping the march safe for everyone. some of the most anti-neo liberal people around also happen to be pro-life which is probably why the ULA is also not concentrating on that issue, if you excluded them you would have fewer numbers on left protests in general. I would presume eirigi has a mix of choicers and lifers in it so they would lose members if they decided to label themselves pro-choice, anyway anyone who feels strongly enough can just go join a choice group

by sceptic Tue Jul 12, 2011 13:02

Nora, those people i.e. women and children were people from the neighbourhood checking to see how much that tiny march was outnumbered and I've been on plenty of marches around to know that they are not eirigi members.

by nora b Wed Jul 13, 2011 14:11

sceptic, as a sceptic you should really be more concerned with logic, reason, facts-the philosophy of scepticism is based on a rejection of wooly thinking and goobbledygook, the 'facts' you put forward are all anti-logic ie. non-facts.
for a start eirigi are not playing catch-up with the sinners they are a break-away from the sinners, also they don't have a female councillor, they do have Lousie Minihin who is a former sinn fein councillor, Eirigi's commitment to the emancipation of women can be proven by the fact that they have a section dedicated to it on thier website, the fact that so many women attend thier protests is also support from women, as is the fact that they are being defended from your accusations here by me-a woman.
As for the ULA -The two constituent partys of the ULA, the swp and the sp are both pro-choice but the ULA as a broad alliance is open to lifers, get over it.

by The Mekon Wed Jul 13, 2011 16:14

"As for the ULA -The two constituent partys of the ULA, the swp and the sp are both pro-choice but the ULA as a broad alliance is open to lifers, get over it."

The ULA is either a socialist organisation or it isn't. Actually you don't even have to be socialist to be pro choice, Alan Shatter is.

Now is the ULA going to be to the right of liberals? This is the same nonsense that the PBPA used to come out with, it didn't have a position on abortion.

Its not a question of getting over it: the ULA lacks credibility if its not prepared to stand up fpr Womens Rights.

by Sense Wed Jul 13, 2011 16:54

"Actually you don't even have to be socialist to be pro choice"

Nor does being pro-life preclude one from being a socialist

by counter Wed Jul 13, 2011 23:45

And not everyone who is prolife is a socialist either. U sound like a male to me who isn't part of the ula.

by nora b Thu Jul 14, 2011 13:14

To try and elucidate a bit of the confusion: most Irish pro-choice people are not socialists (yet!)
In Ireland there are no organised pro-life socialists but there are lots in the US.
In Ireland I would say the vast majority of socialists are like me, pro-choice.
my own position on abortion would be that i am in favour of scandinavian abortion laws but not UK abortion laws and I would expect more technological solutions for the future for example five month fetuses could be adopted from incubaters to save childless couples having to spend so much money adopting from Russia or China.
The stance of the ula and pbp is just tactical to bump up numbers and support, their stance is not a political argument. abortion is such a sensitive topic especially in Ireland mabey they want to leave it to the choice groups as they have other things to fight the government on at present. However my local ULA candidate did put a call for abortion legislation on her website, so there. It was also the issue that took the longest to sort out in Russia after the revolution.

by Confused Thu Jul 14, 2011 14:35

Nora could you expand on this please, as I spent many years in the US and never encountered a pro-life socialist apart from one or two renegade Jesuits.

As for Éirígí's pro-woman credentials why are there no women on their Ard Chomhairle?

by realist Thu Jul 14, 2011 22:42

forget about "stances on abortion". Any enlightened socialist or left wing organisation should be working to alleviate the root causes of unnecessary abortion. i.e. lack of adequate sexual education, insufficient access to practical contraception, the widespread culture of teenage drinking, etc.

Access to abortion services should be a womans right but it is also a last resort. Informed use of contraception is better.

All this talk of abortion is just being used to try and distract people from what is going on and to try and score some cheap divisive political points. this topic always gets dredged up during a crisis.

This issue is one of personal choice. The EU has laws about the availability of services and unfair competition. We are all so gung ho in obeying EU directives on the right so what is so different about this one?

The EU says Services should be freely available for those who choose this option. Those who disagree don't have to avail of them.

Let the political parties enforce the EU directives and allow such services then concentrate on the root social causes of high uptake of those services (currently in the uk by irish women), not whether the services themselves are available.

this IS however in some respects a class issue. Hopping on a plane and staying in a swanky hotel is not a problem for a rich girl but it's make or break for a poor inner city girl who has not the means to deal with the extra expense and has not received adequate sexual education. This often results in a repeated cycle.

by voter Fri Jul 15, 2011 03:07

It doesn't seem possible to have "informed use of contraception" in a society that also has "widespread teenage drink abuse" sometimes aggravated by experimentation with tablet drugs bought from pushers who lurk in and near schools and drinking places. English cities have a similar problem despite years of schools sex education programmes. Teenage pregnancies are low in the Netherlands because, although Dutch urban society has deeply secularised, the puritanical attitude to personal responsibility has not disappeared along with religious observance, it has simply become a secular puritanism. A similar puritanism about booze prevails in liberal Sweden. Drunkness and vodka abuse in Sweden has retreated into homes, though foreign observers have come across lots of sad individuals in side streets and public parks.

Teenagers and adults who abuse alcohol and get unwantingly pregnant are not likely to be thinking left of centre voters. Socialists and liberal reformers in Victorian England voiced support for the Temperance movement because drink-dependent working men were unlikely to be self disciplined enough to become useful active trade unionists.

A strategy of supporting social education about drink abuse and its relationship to casual sex might satisfy voters in the provinces who have ethical, often instinctive, aversion to abortion.