Statement on election of Lord Mayor by Dublin City Councillors

by Ry Mon Jun 15, 2009 21:50

www.indymedia.ie/article/92721

by Maths Mastery Mon Jun 15, 2009 22:23

What is the break down in the votes for the City Council. Do Labour and PBPA have a majority? What are the voting intentions of the independents?

by Councilwatch Mon Jun 15, 2009 22:29

52 councillors in total.

Labour 19
Fine Gael 12
Sinn Féin 6
Fianna Fáil 6
PBP 2
Others 6
(Christy Burke, Mannix Flynn, Vincent Jackson, Damien O'Farrell, Maureen O'Sullivan and Ciaran Perry)

O'Sullivan will have to be replaced at the next Council meeting having been elected a TD and could not attend tonight.

by Maths Mastery Mon Jun 15, 2009 22:34

Looking at the figures if Labour where really left wing then they'd orientate towards getting the 27 votes from PBPA and the left independents (I don't know Damien O'Farrell? is he left-wing? Or indeed Christy Burke, I heard he wanted to support the estimates).

Lesson is that Labour chose to go towards FG and not the left. They will be voting for bin tax increases, possibly water charges and estimates that will cut services to the people of Dublin City.

by Michael Gallagher Mon Jun 15, 2009 22:46

....elected Mayor, no figures yet, but Lab/FG pact likely. Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall.....

Re Burke, go to: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/92635

by Frenchie Mon Jun 15, 2009 23:52

I agree broadly with Math Master's point. If Labour wanted to it could have been the centre of a broad left alliance on the Council consisting of Sinn Féin, PBP and maybe one or two of the Independents who are left (Perry for example, maybe O'Sullivan's replacement).

But leave aside the politics for a second. Practically, Labour do a deal with FG and the job's done. A left alliance requires deals with SF, PBP, various Independents and you still end up with a majority on the Council smaller than the one you can get with FG. Also, to be blunt, Labour councillors in my experience don't have a lot of trust in SF councillors and even less in PBP type councillors.

These are obstacles that whether we like it or not exist for the Labour party. They are not insurmountable obstacles. Labour prefers the FG option because it's priority is what's simple, what will work, rather than taking an approach based on building the left.

by Councilwatch Tue Jun 16, 2009 00:03

52 councillors in total.

Labour 19
Fine Gael 12
Sinn Féin 6
Fianna Fáil 6
PBP 2
Others 7
(Christy Burke, Mannix Flynn, Vincent Jackson, Nial Ring, Damien O'Farrell, Maureen O'Sullivan and Ciaran Perry)

O'Sullivan will have to be replaced at the next Council meeting having been elected a TD and could not attend tonight.

Left out Nial Ring who is a former FF candidate elected as an Independent in NIC.

by pbp supporter - PBPA Tue Jun 16, 2009 14:33

People can watch the city council meeting here:
http://www.dublincity.public-i.tv/site/player/pl_compac...en_GB

Joan Collins (PBP) asked by Christy Burke to take back statement condemning the actions of councillors who voted in the merri-go-round of mayoral elections

Interesting exchange

by Dermot Lacey - Labour Tue Jun 16, 2009 17:00 dermot.lacey at labour dot ie

Contrary to some of these postings Labour have agreed to work with other like minded individuals. Despite their not having the required numbers we facilitated Sinn Fein taking on tjhe role of Chairperson of the Finance Committee and Chrsity Burke and Vincent Jackson facilitated in their areas of interest.

We respect the mandate given to us to lead the Council and will do so in an inclusive manner for the betterment of the City and the people of Dublin.

Election to the Council is about delivering not protesting - though I don't expect many of you to agree with me on that. However I am proud of a record of delivery both from myself and my Party. I guess the protestors have far less to claim credit for.

For the record PBP won two seats. Sinn Fein six and a variety of "left" independents 3/4 ( depending on how you define them) Labour won 19 and we will lead constructively and inclusively.

by Mark P - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Tue Jun 16, 2009 17:24

Dermot Lacey tells us "Politics is about delivery not about protest".

In Dermot's case it's been about delivering bin charges, an entirely regressive tax, for working class families. Over the next period no doubt he hopes to be instrumental in delivering even higher bin taxes and a new water tax. The idea that a "left alliance" with such people is remotely feasible or desirable is entirely bizarre. Labour don't prefer coalition with Fine Gael on the basis of a confused whim. They prefer coalition with Fine Gael because that reflects their actual politics.

by Maths Mastery Tue Jun 16, 2009 17:48

Dermot Lacey says that Labour are leading the left on the City Council . Nothing could be further from the truth. The numbers stack up for a "left" majority (true, depends how you define left. I don't think Labour are left, ach sin scéal eile). Yet, Labour jump in with FG. I'm sure this pact will also involve giving FG the Mansion House. An FG Mayor is a strange way to lead the left.

The numbers stack up for a left majority. That means that there could have been lefts leading the various committees and having an influence over the business of the City Council. Yes, it would involve an arrangement with PBPA and Independents. But surely agreement does not have to be made on all matters. Simply a voting pact to exclude the right-wingers in FF and FG, no other political arrangement other than that.

I expect Labour bringing in hikes in bin tax and even voting for water charges in a few years.

by Jonah Tue Jun 16, 2009 18:04

"The numbers stack up for a "left" majority (true, depends how you define left. I don't think Labour are left, ach sin scéal eile)"

So, in one part of the post you stick the boot into Labour for not being 'left' and in the other you say they should have led the left and by not doing so have let it down. People on the left outside of Labour need to realise that if you spend your entire political career calling them 'evil, clueless sell-out bastards who have betrayed the working class and the revolution' you should not be surprised when they find themselves less than anxious to do a deal with you.

Either Labour are left in which case let's try and do a deal with them or they're not left in which case why lecture them on their failure to lead a left you don't believe them to be part of? I'm not advocating one approach or the other by the way. I'd just like to see a bit of consistency in the argument.

BTW Dermot, at the risk of being very picky, Sinn Féin won seven seats. We've simply lost one already, or to be more accurate, had one taken from us.

by Esther Moran Tue Jun 16, 2009 18:39

I presume that all the parties who voted in the pre arranged pact will be voting for the estimates and therefore imposing the double taxation demands issued by the council. A sad reflection on local democracy when all the decisions are made behind closed doors. Labour and Fine Gael-no difference and the shinn fein members trying to be part of the establishment.

by Michael Gallagher Tue Jun 16, 2009 19:16 libertypics at yahoo dot ie

Dermot Lacey tells us: "Contrary to some of these postings Labour have agreed to work with other like minded individuals." AND "Politics is about delivery not about protest".

Well when the water charges that your going to deliver along with that other baby, a still undemocratic merry-go-round, kicks in, you and your 'like minded people' will probably get away with that too.
Let's see you start right now, and right some of the damage done for the fat cat's by the Fawning F---ers and how Green is my valley.
Reverse the cuts in local council services. One example. A council pitch and putt course closed at it's busiest time? Should be easy, bring in revenue, give a person back their hours work?

What about reversing the dictatorship of the city manager, introduced during John Fitzgeralds jaunt? Did I miss something, or does the City Manager still have a veto over any decisions made in the council? No, Labour won't take on that one now as you didn't then.

Abolish bin charges, no chance. Criticise the real campaigning fighters, you love that Lacey

Get your friends and the lackeys in the unions to really represent the members? I think not, way to big for your boots. Like minded individuals how are ya, hypocrites!

I'm so looking forward to Lisbon 2 and Labour's take on the 'new gobbledeegook gazzette', should be a good laugh.

I do hope PBPA keeps us well informed and gives their voters some say in any decisions they make re voting etc.

Best of luck Joan, Bríd and Ciarán and like minded.

Seems like Christy B. is good at poker, I hope he doesn't snap!!

Hey diddle diddle, the cat on the fiddle......

by allen Tue Jun 16, 2009 22:06

What about the deal on Sligo and Clonmel Borough Councils where Labour entered a pact with both FF and FG, when there was a left alternative, including two former TDs and a number former Mayors.

by Dermot Lacey - labour Wed Jun 17, 2009 09:44

Yes Jonah - Sinn Fein did win seven seats - sorry about that. I was counting as is i.e before Christy left.

Michael,

I am willing to engage in debate anytime on this issue. I believe that Local Government is an appropriate model for Social Democrats to deliver real improvements to the lives of working people. I also believe that an improved and reformed Local Government system must have finance raising powers. You and i start from two different perspectives. I don't doubt your integrity - please don't doubt mine.

by Dermot Lacey - labour Wed Jun 17, 2009 09:44

Yes Jonah - Sinn Fein did win seven seats - sorry about that. I was counting as is i.e before Christy left.

Michael,

I am willing to engage in debate anytime on this issue. I believe that Local Government is an appropriate model for Social Democrats to deliver real improvements to the lives of working people. I also believe that an improved and reformed Local Government system must have finance raising powers. You and i start from two different perspectives. I don't doubt your integrity - please don't doubt mine.

by Jonah Wed Jun 17, 2009 15:31

Just a couple of things. People, and I was one of them, who've never been seriously involved in local government can often have very inaccurate impressions of the powers of councillors. Some thinks they have far more than they do, others think they have none at all.

So, the powers the City Manager has were not given to him by the councillors. I can't think of councillors from any party who think he should have all the powers he does have. Those powers were moved from elected representatives to unelected City and County Managers by Dáil legislation. The reason the City Manager is in charge of setting the rate on bin charges is because FF and the PDs introduced legislation to take that power out of the hands of councillors and put it in his hands. Until the legislation is changed (Still waiting Mr Gormley) that's going to continue.

Councillors cannot abolish the bin charges. If People Before Profit took 30 City Council seats in the elections and had an overall majority they could not abolish bin charges in Dublin any more than they could invade the Isle of Man. It's not a power the Council has.

You can, as they probably will, vote against the Estimates because they contain bin charges on a point of principle, which is a position I absolutely respect though I suspect Dermot doesn't.

What councillors can do is try and find the money elsewhere to make an argument for reducing the bin charges rate perhaps, or expanding the waiver system. They can also use their position on the Council to lead a campaign with forces outside the Council to abolish the charges or to reverse legislation taking the power to decide whether to introduce or set the Charges away from the City or County Managers and, if that succeeds, then moving to abolish them.

In short, it's more complicated than simply shouting 'Axe the double tax'.

by Bemused - None Wed Jun 17, 2009 15:32

Local authorities do not have the power to introduce domestic water charges. Commercial enterprises already pay for use of water.

by Dermot Lacey - labour Wed Jun 17, 2009 15:41

Well said Jonah.

Though to be clear I support Waste Charges as both being appropriate and behaviourily beneficial. I ahve repeatedly argued for the right of Local Government to have independent Finance raising powers.

It has always bemused me that PBP and the SP are among the only Socialists in the world who argue against a fair taxation policy. There is nothing Left Wing about wanting everything for nothing.

by Jonah Wed Jun 17, 2009 16:00

"Though to be clear I support Waste Charges as both being appropriate and behaviourily beneficial. I ahve repeatedly argued for the right of Local Government to have independent Finance raising powers. It has always bemused me that PBP and the SP are among the only Socialists in the world who argue against a fair taxation policy. There is nothing Left Wing about wanting everything for nothing."

Well, there we disagree (Except on independent finance raising powers for the Council). The Bin Charges have hit working families very hard. A couple of years ago St Vincent de Paul named service charges as one of the biggest contributors to the growth of 'working poor', households headed by someone in employment but still below the relative poverty line. A consumer pays for the packaging of a product when they purchase it. They then have to pay for the disposal of the packaging on that same product regardless of how wasteful the packaging is. The company making the product has no financial imperative to reduce

I think this isn't about 'everything for nothing', but rather different views on how a taxation system should work. Some people prefer taxation based on income, capital or property. Others might might prefer charges for services used but these tend to hit lower income families harder. My personal income tax rate reduced over the lifetime of the Government but I found myself paying service charges I didn't pay before and increased medical fees. I suspect the SP and PBP would, assuming they deigned to developed a taxation policy, want higher personal rates of taxation and a reduction in charge based sources of income.

I think there's a broad left-wing consensus on increased taxation for public services. It's about the manner in which those taxes are raised that we disagree.

by Dermot Lacey - Labour Wed Jun 17, 2009 16:11

Jonah,

That is one of the most reasonable points made on Indymedia on this issue in many a year.

I don't agree with you and I don't agree with the St. Vincent de Paul on this. ( Incidentally i think it was the Combat Poverty Agency).

However it was Councillors like me who voted to retain the power within our own hands who managed to protect and keep the Waiver for vulnerable people. It was those who eventually forced the hand of the Minister who took that power away.

It would be really good for ordinary people if those of us on the "sensible" Left could have an honest debate about Local Taxation without being accused of being Class Traitors, Hypocrites etc.

I am very proud of my working class roots. I live as I always ahve lived in a Corporation area. I have now been re-elected by my community on three seperate occasions and I will give credence to posers who postulate as "Revolutionary Socialists" while leaving the lives of ordinary people to the Marketplace.

by Democrat Wed Jun 17, 2009 16:41

I agree entirely with Dermot Lacey about the need for a proper debate about how to finance local councils. They are disempowered and totally broke.

What is needed is a property tax.

by Eddie Yates - 13 Coronation Street Wed Jun 17, 2009 19:29

The issue of waste charges is not entirely one of fair or unfair tax policies.

I live in an area with a large amount of private rented dwellings, and high rate of working poor and unemployed people. Recently the City stopped collecting our bins. I explained to some of my neighbours that they had to buy tags to put on the bags or else the rubbish would not be collected. Being from eastern Europe, they were surprised to find that they had to pay an extra charge for what they thought of a basic service.

I also live near a railway line and canal. Of course, rubbish is now being dumped at both of these, providing a food source for rats and other pests. While I can afford to pay the charges, and understand the system, it seems quite a few of my neighbours have opted out of waste charges by simply dumping their refuse.

This is going to affect my quality of life, but short of buying tags for the whole neighbourhood, there is nothing I can do about it.

Judging from the evidence of the rest of the city, this is not an unusual situation.
Some services, such as water, policing, street lighting, hygiene and sanitation, and I would argue, waste disposal are the concern of the whole community and should not be left to the individual.

by Anti-capitalist egalitarian Wed Jun 17, 2009 19:33

Id like to know when the current populace of Dublin were asked about their preferred method of administering society.
All these little bureaucrats think (often genuinely believe) they know whats best for people,but this is an impossibility.
Only a truly participative system can address the shocking state of inequality in Dublin and beyond.
These fools that sip tea in the mansion house dont represent me or the majority of people,we are left with no choice to obey them and their superiors or face punishment.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Jun 17, 2009 20:39

Hi Ant-Capitalist Egalitarian - How I despair of those middle class titles - real working class people have little time for such nonsense.

Anyway I have just come through a fairly extensive consultation process in which hundreds of thousands of people participated - it was called the Local Elections - you know the same ones that elected the two PBP Alliance people or is it SWP people on to Dublin City Council.

On that body and off behalf of those who elected me I will try to take decisions that are in the best inteests of Dublin and its people - both native and newcomer, along with all the other Councillors.

Our Local Government system is far from perfect and I have consistently argued for reform. However I have no intention of asking people in need to wait until your Socialist Utopia comes about before I will try and make life better for all.

and

Editors I have no objection if you want to publish any of Michael Gallaghers offensive postings I am used to it from him. I think it dilutes whattever arguments he has anyway and does no harm to me.

by Wayne Wed Jun 17, 2009 21:34

Deromt-your party would go into coalition with FINE GAEL aka the blueshirts. You are just going mad that the pb4p alliance did so well and you are trying to discredit them-at least they have principles! Oh and you European East candidate used her name to get Elected. The labour party are not socialists in fact would go anything for power if you want evidence of you own background goog search: JOHN MCMANUS ELECTIONS IRELAND and you'll see he was in 4 parties! So that knocks down your swp gibe. Face it Cllr Lacey a real left alternative is emerging.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Jun 17, 2009 22:39

Wayne,

Many members of the Labour Party are Socialists - I am not. I am and always have been a Social Democrat. I wish the two new PBPA/Alliance Councillors well. I wish the 19 new Labour Councillors even better. Above all I wish the people of Dublin a productive and progressive City Council.

For the record I have only ever been a member of one Political party and do not envisage ever being a member of any other.

by Wayne Wed Jun 17, 2009 22:53

Dermot,

You ignore my main point which is in relation to your smart comment re pb4p then saying swp when
your own party has a more than shaky history for being part of different parties-there are people in
your party who have ran for at least 4 (YES FOUR!!) different parties as I said google "John McManus elections Ireland".

This knocks down any attack on pb4p by saying swp. POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK!

You say you wish the labour councillors "even better"-childish!

Well done to Joe Higgins (who was also ousted from Labour).

Tommy Cullen in Wicklow was also ousted during the DL virtual "takeover". He got nearly
2000 votes recently.

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jun 18, 2009 09:50

As far as I know there is very little difference between PBPA and SWP. The fact is former DL members have joined Labour and therefore are now obviously members of Labour.

Yes Joe Higgins was expelled as were other members of Militant. It is simply incompatible to be a member of two different Parties at the same time.

Obviously I wish the Labour members of the City Council all the best - what sort of comrade would not?

by Eddie Yates Thu Jun 18, 2009 14:55

I find it weird that Cllr Lacey is answering virtually post on this thread except mine. Fair enough, there is no rule that he has to, but doesn't it seem odd that he is willing to discuss every single point except the one I made?

Someone told me that the waste charges will encourage people to put their refuse out every second or third week now instead of every week, and the gestation period of common house flies is just over a week from egg to adult, so this means that the fly populatio in Dublin should increase.

So, is it true that there are more flies around? Certainly seems like it.

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jun 18, 2009 15:10

Sorry Eddie - I did not think you asked a question ? glad to see that Coronation Street still has a Council Cleaning Rep as if the anti-bin tax brigade had their way we would not have any.

In any event there are four people living in my house - sometimes five. We only put out the grey bin on average once a month - have not spotted a swarm of flies. Of course if you want to see problems at every corner you will.

Dermot

by Stabillo Boss - PBPA - individual Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:50

The policies of Dermot Lacey - intransigent support for double taxation - are an example of why the People Before Profit Alliance should reject the approach by Labour to support their nomination for Chair in South Dublin County Council. What a brass neck anyway, when Labour has combined with the Tories in Dublin, Tipperary South and Sligo to keep out the left.

by Eddie Yates Fri Jun 19, 2009 13:02

You know, it might have been better when you were ignoring me Dermot, but here's a question for you.

The imposition of a tax on waste disposal for householders has had an obvious impact on hygiene and sanitation in the city. It has led to improper disposal of waste, illegal dumping, and increased litter. There are likely to be health implications connected with this- diseases, pests such as rats, flies, contaminated water etc. Even those who pay the tax ill be effected by these.

Do you, as an advocate of this tax, have any thoughts on this?

by Dermot Lacey Fri Jun 19, 2009 14:16

Yes Eddie,

There is a good waiver scheme in existence for those who need it and those who deliberately flout the law and their obligations to their fellow citizens should be penalized. One of the principles of Socialism/Social Democracy is Solidarity and Each according to their means. those who evade that when they can well afford to pay should not be supported in my view. is that clear enough of an answer.

Dermot

by Comedy connoisseur Fri Jun 19, 2009 15:50

But seriously folks...I've been endeavouring recently to secure a waiver for a pensioner who is eminently entitled to one and DCC and the relevant government departments have been steadfastly frustrating those efforts with obstacle after obstacle. Far from being well-able to pay, working-class people in Dublin are being put to the pin of their collar, and this double taxation is just another burden to carry. But then I wouldn't expect Labour to know anything about that (the working classes...remember them? They haven't gone away, you know!)

As for belonging to more than one party, genuinely socialist movements have a long tradition of accommodating currents or tendencies because they're not so utterly homogenized as to be terrified of debate or democracy, unlike the Labour Party. It's probably only a matter of time before Dermo himself gets reined in to prevent him from turning them into even more of a laughing stock on here.

by Dermot Lacey Fri Jun 19, 2009 16:20

No Government Department is involved in the issuing of waste collection waivers so I suspect you kow very little about the issue and are simply trying to score useless political points.

I also suspect that you in fact have little notion of what being working class is at all. Most people I know don't have the inclination to worry about such things as those that clearly bother you.

by Perrier Award committee - Edinburgh Fri Jun 19, 2009 16:40

Not even the DSCFA? Think carefully, no-one's rushing you.

I don't propose to go Monty Python on your ass, rest assured that my working-class status is not in doubt, and that the reality on the council estate I inhabit is very different from that filtered through the imperceptibly pinkish tint of Labour Party policy . But then the political gravy train is a delicate conveyance, requiring anything superfluous (like a social conscience or appreciation of workers' struggles) to be jettisoned. So I won't judge.

by Dermot Lacey Fri Jun 19, 2009 16:58

Waivers are determined at each Local Authority level. The DSCFA is not involved. The waivers are determined mind you by Management not the elected Councillors - another by product of the destructive outcome of the anti-bin tax brigade.

I am proud that when as Lord Mayor I defended the waste charges the provision to determine a waiver was in the hands of Councillors and i voted to protect that.

I also live on a Dublin Corporation estate. As I have said before I have never lived anywhere other than a house in the first instance bullt by Dublin Corporation. It does not make me better or worse than anyone but my pride in my working class roots and traditions is strong. the reality however is that most people who posture as somehow better socialists than others are usually simply middle class kids having their kicks or people with so many chips on their shoulders that would make Burdocks look like a furniture shop.

by Stan Ogden Fri Jun 19, 2009 18:58

Lacey says "to determine a waiver was in the hands of Councillors" which really means they can be given out in return for votes. A parish pump politician at his best is dear old Lacey, the oldest scout in Ireland. Labour would sell their soul for a whiff of glory. The mere sight of the mayoral chain and lacey was voting for a bin service that will eventually lead to council workers losing their jobs. Privitisation was and still is the aim of council management and aslong as they dangle bananas , monkeys like Lacey will perform tricks. The party of James Connolly, no chance. More like James Callaghan.

by Dermot Lacey Fri Jun 19, 2009 21:14

Stanley,

How little you know. I don't claim to be a Socialist because I am not. There are many fine Socialists in the Labour Party that I admire. I am however a conviction Social Democrat.

James Connolly is not around today but in his time he was clearly a coalitionist willing to enter into alliances in pursuit of a cause - so am I.

I do not make excuses for waste charges - I support them. Not because of any Mayoral deal but because they are right. Local charges for local services are legitimate in my view and I support them.

The effective prvatization of too many services arose from the antics of the anti-bin brigade and their cohorts who put so much pressure on Councillors that made it difficult for many to resist. Look in a mirror Stan you and your comrades share the blame.

Socialists who care take on their responsibilities and try to make a difference. Pontificating -usually middle class wafflers - can afford to blame games with peoples lives. I am not prepared to do that.

Real Local Government reform is one of the best ways to deliver real improvement in the lives of ordinary people - however the reality is that you andyour like don't want that because you to wallow in other peoples suffering while you profess and protest your purity. What a nauseating shower of hypocrites you all really are.