Capitalism crashes - what to replace it with?

by Jim Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:35

Anywhere the creation of a socialist society has been attempted despite the best efforts of true believers who tried valiantly to properly implement it without exception leads to the rule of a dictator supported by an unelected unaccountable elite with sole control over all the economic assets of the country, heavily censored and state controlled media, a police state riven with corruption using an apparatus of arbitrary repression, imprisonment, torture and mass genocide against all dissenters and percieved opposition and free speech and coercion of labour and conscription into a huge expanded military that is used to quell internal rebellion, close the borders to anyone who wishes to escape and to threaten neighbouring states.
The system eventually collapses as economic productivity plummets, famine takes hold and the basic infrastructure of society and the repressive government disintegrates as devours itself from the inside.

Anyone who still believes in Marxist ideology in this day and age after the horror of the 20th century is either willfully ignorant, insane or mentally deficient.

by D_D Thu Nov 27, 2008 13:42

Anyone who still consciously believes in capitalist ideology in this day and age after the horror of the 20th and 21st centuries is either willfully ignorant, insane, mentally deficient or university educated.

by Andrew - WSM (personal capacity) Thu Nov 27, 2008 14:57

Your wrong there Jim on at least two counts

1. Workers Solidarity is an anarchist publication which whatever problems it may have make 'Marxist ideology' an unlikely one. Anarchism and Marxism split back in the early 1870's long, long before any of the examples you might cite and the difference was precisely over the question of whether or not state power could be used to introduce socialism. You can educate yourself on both the history and theoretical difference around this question at http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secHcon.html which should prevent you making such an elementary mistake in future.

This is not to say anarchism & Marxism have been completely isolated from each other in the years since - both people and ideas have moved back and forth across the divide and some organisations and individuals have even tried to straddle it. But they are certainly not the same thing, in particular on the question of state power!

2. There have been a number of experiments in creating an alternative society without using the state, some of these by people who called / call themselves anarchists, others were not. Some were very large scale, during the Spanish Civil War for instance some 7 million people took part in one of these within the republican zone. You can educate yourself about this at http://www.struggle.ws/spaindx.html Currently upwards of 1/4 of a million people are taking part in a similar experiment in Southern Mexico in the state of Chiapas, while smaller scale this has been ongoing since 1994.

by Jim Thu Nov 27, 2008 16:09

"...university educated."
"You can educate yourself ..."

I know all about the re-education camps of the Soviet Union and what happened to the university educated in Cambodia thank you very much.

by Starstruck Thu Nov 27, 2008 19:58

Anarchist ideology or anarchists themselves had nothing to do with either of the examples you have cited above Jim.
I think youll find that the terrible things that happened in both of those places and times are the very reason anarchism warns about the dangers of hierarchy,centralisation of power and the Dictatorship of the Proletariat (supposedly through a single party or grouping)

by Randy Thu Feb 19, 2009 20:40

As long as the core of the system is based on monetary profit, true change will not come about. If the core value was based on some sort of ethical credit, then maybe change can take place.
It would be hard to be greedy if greed was not a valuable thing

by Freedom Wed Feb 25, 2009 15:04

It is my opinion that those who believe socialism and caapatialism are on opposite ends of the political spectrum are incorrect - they are both to the right and inenvietably end up at the same end game i.e. a totalitarian state controlled by the elite to the expense of the common man (adptly demonstrated by Nazi Germany, Facist Italy or Comunnist Russia or China is there any real difference between them?- anacharism is to the complete left where there is no goverment rules are imposed and state control is tolerated nor accepted, however neither is the rule of law. Where the rule of law ( as defined by common law where inalienable rights are accepted not mercantile law) is respected and adhered to, where it is unacceptable to do harm to another through violence, fraud or theft / destruction of property and individual choices are accepted, where any compliance to the rules of a particular society only comes from the aggreement of the individual - then this type of collective can have many types of "societies" and people can choose which society to join if they wish to join a socialist society they can so giving up a portion of their labour in return for benifits to all of members of that society like health care etc.., if they do not wish to do so they can choose a different society which better adheres to their own ideals or opt out - any form of "society" which forces complusion through force always inenevitably ends up in the same place - controlled by the few at the expense of the masses. Freedom yes but with laws and responsibility lets us as human beings move from adolessons to adulthood, accept our responsibilities and then take our freedom, we dont need to be told how and in what we should live our lives but as adults understand with this freedom comes the requirement to be responsible.

Socialism, Capatialism Marxism Fasim it is just word games designeds to divide and hide the same motivations behind any of these complusory systems - power hungry people wishing to centralise power to their own benefit - I believe the struggle through out times has always between these two forces - those who wish to centralise power to their own benefit and the rest of us who want to retain our own power to live our lives as we see fit without encroachment from the rich / powerful whatever ism they may label themselves as

God Bless

and decentralise