AECI admits Registered Employment Agreement Flawed

national | worker & community struggles and protests | opinion/analysis

Wednesday September 10, 2008 17:07

by John McCoy

In 2005 a delegation from AECI addressed a JOINT OIREACTAS COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS. The purpose of this Presentation was convince the government to give Statutory Powers to the Private Limited Company EPACE. Epace is an organisation which AECI has now left. Outlined below are some of the statements made by AECI in that presentation.

As can be seen below AECI clearly admitted that they were not substantially representative of employers as required by Section 27 (3) Part C of the 1946 Industrial relations act which the Registered Employment Agreement is based. They also make a number of other statements in the presentation that clearly show that this REA is working against employment in the Industry. This is in breach of Section 27 (3) Pat D of the 1946 Industrial relations act which clearly states "that the agreement is not intended to restrict unduly employment generally or the employment of workers of a particular class, type or group"
It is unbelievable that an Employers Representative Association that had clearly identified that the REA was having a negative effect on the Industry are now Sitting on the Fence While others make a stand to change it.

The Following are some extracts from the submission

Full Report is available by following this link

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=BUJ20051012...age=1

THE FOLLOWING WERE IN ATTENDANCE FOR THE PRESENTATION

DEPUTY M. BRADY IN THE CHAIR.
Deputy J. Callanan, Deputy P. McHugh,
Deputy P. Hogan, Deputy M. J. Nolan,
Deputy B. Howlin, Deputy N. O’Keeffe,
Deputy K. Lynch, Senator T. Leyden.

Mr. Dermot McClannon, president of the Association of Electrical Contractors of Ireland
Mr. Gerry Goggin, honorary secretary of the Association of Electrical Contractors of Ireland
Mr. George Kennedy, executive secretary of the Association of Electrical Contractors of Ireland

______________________________________________________________________________

AECI ADMITTING THEY ARE NOT REPERESENTIVE IN 2005

Mr. Gerry Goggin:(AECI) As regards non-aligned contractors, there are in excess of 4,000 registered electrical contractors in the State, of whom almost 550 are members of trade associations such as the AECI and ECA. It is clear that approximately 3,500 electrical contractors are not represented by this system. That is a major part of the problem.
______________________________________________________________________________

MASSAVE PAY RISES BECAUSE OF ANOLOG SYSTEM

Mr. Gerry Goggin:(AECI) There has been an increase in the basic rate of pay of an electrician to the present day high of €19.72 per hour, plus the additional costs of employment to the employer. These rates of pay are being met by a compliant contractor as the base figure for the contractor’s hourly charge out rate. This leads to a necessary charge out rate of €40 per hour. This basic rate of pay has increased by 96% since 1 July 1997. National wage agreements in this period have afforded increases of 40%.
______________________________________________________________________________

ABUSE OF SUB CONTRACTOR SYSTEM

Mr. Gerry Goggin:(AECI) Awareness by construction and large industrial companies of the above practices allows them to play one contractor off against another to reduce overall costs. A number of significant electrical contractors employ non-compliant contractors on their projects. While being fully compliant themselves, they are under no obligation to be responsible for the non-compliance of those to whom they subcontract work. Non-aligned contractors can claim to be ignorant of Labour Court decisions and NJIC agreements, but ignorance of the law is no excuse for non-compliance.
______________________________________________________________________________

APPRENTACE RATIO

Mr. Goggin: (AECI) FÁS was of the opinion that the ratio of 2:1 was still in place and was surprised that this clause had been removed from the agreement. It does not believe a situation should prevail whereby there can be more apprentices than electricians in a company. However, based on the information available that is the situation.
______________________________________________________________________________

AECI LOOKING FOR A STATUTARY POWER FOR E-PACE AN ORGANISATION THEY HAVE NOW LEFT

Deputy Howlin: What type of statutory power would be given to E-PACE?

Mr. Goggin:(AECI) The statutory power required by E-PACE would be such as to allow it to enter a company and to verify from its books whether it was compliant in terms of rates, conditions and pensions and to refer any matters of non-compliance to the Labour Court for decision. Another issue worth examining is the Labour Court’s ability to handle such situations at this juncture.

Deputy Howlin: What is meant by that statement?

Mr. Goggin:(AECI) The view is that the Labour Court would not be capable of handling the workload required in terms of examining all the complaints referred to it.
______________________________________________________________________________

GOVERNMENT SEEING THAT REA IS AGAINST COMPETION LAWS

Deputy McHugh: I welcome the members of the delegation, particularly Ms Byrne. I now want to play devil’s advocate. On one reading of this presentation what the delegation wants is a totally protected industry with full collusion between all the players in it and the complete elimination of competition.

The delegation has mentioned that some people have to start up a business — the delegation admits they have to do this — with no business qualifications. However, that is the situation throughout the country in various areas of life and various professions. People with no formal qualifications often start up businesses which turn out to be very successful, despite their lack of qualifications.

It was mentioned that a local authority somewhere had accepted a tender which did not fit exactly into this little basket. However, it is quite common in different professions, including the profession represented here today, for contractors to quote different prices depending on the situation at the time. If a contractor has a certain number of employees and wishes to retain them and work is becoming scarce, the contractor may do the work at a lower rate and may be able to carry the loss without necessarily paying a lower rate to his or her employees. Is the delegation stating we should address this situation by creating an artificial system in which everybody would be equal, or is it suggesting all clients should contact the Association of Electrical Contractors of Ireland when they want an electrical contractor to do a job and that the association will provide the contractor and stipulate what the rates of pay should be? Is it suggested there should be total protection, total collusion and no competition? If that is what the delegation is stating, I cannot agree with it.
______________________________________________________________________________

AECI AND TEEU ADMITTING WE NEED A GRADING SYSTEM FOR ELECTRICIANS

Mr. McClannon: (AECI) There is no register of electricians, although I would like to see one introduced. I would also like electricians to be graded as A, B or C in terms of experience and qualifications. They should also carry their own insurance costs to make them more accountable. At present an electrician is not registered or responsible for any concerns caused to employers or clients. The employer carries the can for any costs or problems that arise.

Some years ago I discussed the register and grading system with a senior union executive who thought the ideas were worthwhile. When we discussed the matter in more depth, he wanted to grade a C electrician at the higher rate of pay and grade B and A upwards. I wanted the higher grade to go to the grade A electrician and grade down to C.

______________________________________________________________________________
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One has to wonder what State the Electrical Industry would be in to-day if the AECI had succeeded with Its attempt to give Statutory Powers to a Private Limited Company who’s role is to Police Employers in a Registered Employment Agreement that was set up by the Minority without the Input or Knowledge of the Majority. To make things worse this Private Limited Company is now 100% Controlled by a Union.

HERE IS THE CURRENT SITUATION IN ONE SENTENCE

90% of Irish Electrical Contractors are Legally bound by an agreement they know nothing about and have no input into which is aggressively enforced by a Private Limited Company controlled by a Union.

No wonder Electrical Contractors are jumping at the chance to be properly represented.

save preference

Comments (7 of 7)

neci dennis judge

by patrick - none

Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:40

after a bit of digging i found out the following

dennis judge mr NECI was part of the AECI that agreeded the pay increases with one other person on there own last year ,need proof look at labour court records dennis judge signed off pay increase on behalf of AECI.
so why is D judge suddenly hot and bothered about all that is going on??
well it seems he applyed for a fulll time job with in the aeci and was turned down !!!!
is this the biggest case of sour grapes ever ?

so what is neci trieing to do bring down aeci ?

why ?

aeci are nearly 50 years old and have worked well for the industry until dennis judge came on board with them or so it seems

AECI and the reasons for their demise

by Stradbrook

Mon Sep 22, 2008 14:59

Firstly, Patrick you just got to learn how to spell or locate spell check on your pc, but back to the kernel of your posting.

Whether or not Mr Judge signed off the last increase is not the issue here, nor does your assertion that he applied and was turned down for a position with the now discredited AECI

Here are the facts as to why the AECI are now defunct and what led them there, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Denis Judge, the NECI or the non aligned contractors group.

The AECI claimed “Neutrality” regarding the pay increase that the TEEU and the ECA attempted to push through on the 22nd May at the Labour Court, so presumably having agreed the pay hike by the time they got to court, they had no opinion regarding the pay increase and the effect this will have on the industry and employers they purport to represent.

On the 28th July in the High Court the AECI again stated that their organisation was “Neutral as to the outcome of the TEEU’s application for the lifting of the injunction prohibiting the pay increase. That makes sense then, as they weren’t too pushed either way on the 22nd at the Labour Court.

Up till Dec 07 the AECI, along with their mates the ECA, and the TEEU they set up and were part of the cosy, self proclaimed vigilante organisation that is EPACE Limited. This unregulated and non statutory company is funded by money collected by the Construction Workers Pension Scheme, which they collect from electricians, apprentice electricians and the companies who employ them, and I might add are wholly unaware that part of their pension funds handed over each week are going to fund the jobs for the boys company which is EPACE Limited.

The AECI (up till Dec 07) along with the ECA and the TEEU were collecting nice little earners i.e. money from the re directed pension funds. Check out EPACE Ltd returns on the CRO site for confirmation.

The AECI were up till 2006 hiring inspectors to carry out inspections on their behalf, on contractors they targeted some of whom were competitors of members of the Executive Council of the AECI. (I have the proof) and here is the perverse part, some of these inspections were of their own members. Once inspected this information was forwarded to their mates in Epace Ltd who then with the help of the TEEU hauled these competitors/members/non members into the Labour Court to prosecute with only the vengeance that EPACE can operate with.

When EPACE wanted private information on contractors they were investigating it was to the AECI they went to elicit this, and the AECI were only too happy to oblige.

So Patrick, with the greatest respect, neither Mr Denis Judge, the NECI, the Non Aligned Group or the other 3,000 plus electrical contractors are the reason for the demise of the AECI, the facts outlined above are just some of the reasons why, and they were signed off, and agreed by the executive of the AECI.

The King is dead, long live the King.

Response To Patrick

by Ex AECI Member - AECI EX MEMBER

Mon Sep 22, 2008 19:50

The comments posted by Patrick display quite clearly how far removed AECI supporters are from the real feelings of Irish Electrical Contractors.

I attended an NECI meeting two months ago (www.neci.ie) and Denis Judge told the whole meeting that he was part of the AECI team at these particular pay talks. He also spoke about the fact that he was not happy with the level of that years pay increase and voiced the opinion that that the increase would cause members to leave AECI.
His opinion was not listened to and look where we are now. !!!!!!

Any association that sets up a Union Controlled Limited Company to Bully and Harass its own members are on the way out. I have been an AECI member for 12 years and have never been asked my opinion on anything. It seems to me that about 10 people make all the decisions and these decisions clearly are not reperesentive of their members.

NECI is not just Denis Judge ,NECI is now twice as big as AECI and twelve times as bigger than ECA.
I have now left AECI and will give my full support to the good work that is being done by all at NECI.

AECI and ECA have spent the last 20 years trying to set up a cartel for the big boys of the electrical Industry. They have brought in an illegal Registered Employment Agreement and set up a union controlled Private company in an attempt to kill off the competition. AECI have recieved money from EPACE for shopping their own members. AECI are puppets to the big boys and always have been.

These Associations who sold out their own members have now gone too far and will now die a natural death. There will be few tears at the funeral.

NAME NOT USED BECAUSE AECI WOULD SHOP ME TO EPACE

What is Patricks Point ???????

by Disenchanted AECI Member - AECI (but not for long more)

Mon Sep 22, 2008 20:23

There are some hugely important points made in the original article above. Patrick who is obviously a member / supporter of AECI addresses none of them.
The fact that he says nothing to defend AECI on the serious issues raised above indicates he has no defense and that everything said above is true.
Its unbelievable that Patrick resorts to a childish personal attack on one person.
Come on Patrick give us your response to the real issues.

1 DID AECI ADMITT THEY ARE NOT REPERESENTIVE IN 2005?
2 DID AECI IDENTIFY MASSAVE PAY RISES BECAUSE OF ANOLOG SYSTEM ?
3 DID AECI IDENTIFY ABUSE OF SUB CONTRACTOR SYSTEM IN 2005 ?
4 DID AECI SEE PROBLEMS REGUARDING APPRENTICE RATIOS IN 2005 ?
5 DID AECI LOOK FOR A STATUTARY POWER FOR E-PACE ?
6 DID DEPUTY McHUGH SEE THAT REA IS AGAINST COMPETION LAWS ?
7 DID AECI ADMITT WE NEED A GRADING SYSTEM FOR ELECTRICIANS ?

These are the real issues Patrick, and they are a lot more important the issue of sour grapes on one persons behalf.

ALSO WITHHOLDING NAME FOR FEAR OF EPACE ATTACK

EPACE Dividing the Spoils or Other People’s Pension Funds

Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:10

2006
TEEU €60,850.00
AECI €13,700.00
ECA €4,000.00

2005
TEEU €23,000.00
AECI €10,750.00
ECA €4,000.00

2004
TEEU €48,444.00
AECI €23,500.00
ECA €11,000.00

Total pension funds shared out 2004 to 2006
TEEU €77,494.00
AECI €47,950.00
ECA €19,000.00

Total pension funds handed to the cosy cartel 2004 to 2006 a staggering €144,444.00 and that’s just for the last three years accounts, can’t wait to see how much they cream off when they file their 2007 accounts at the end of this month.

The above is on top of the expenses the lads from the AECI, the ECA and the TEEU claim for attending their quango meetings up there in Knockmitton Close, in premises that are rented from an AECI council member, very cosy indeed.

One of the lads I heard had a habit of claiming expenses from the AECI and EPACE Ltd for the same train journey, the same lunch, the same hotel overnight cost, and of course breakie on the train to attend the monthly EPACE meeting followed the next day by the AECI meeting.

Now Patrick, I don’t know if you are familiar with the Registered Employment Agreement, that’s the agreement, signed up to by the AECI and the ECA who represent 10% of Electrical Contractors and affect the other 90% of us who have no input, or are not canvassed for our opinion.

However I have read it extensively and nowhere in that long document does it mention the setting up of a private limited company, nowhere does it mention that .38 cent per week will be collected by the Construction workers Pension from both the employer and employee and then passed onto EPACE Ltd. In fact Patrick it doesn’t mention anything about “Monitoring” agencies.

Patrick the AECI have not served the Electrical Industry well for over 50 years, they have served themselves and their cronies and that is the reason why, having been found out they are now discredited, defunct and dead in the water.

Statutary Powers for a Private Limited Company !!!! UNREAL

by Electricman

Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:37

I can’t believe that our government would even consider giving Statutory Powers to a Private Limited Company.

Just think about it. What will be next?

Will Guinness get Stautory Powers lobby to make a law that every person in Ireland has to drink 10 pints a week.

Will Ryanair get Statutory Powers and make a law that we all have to push the plane to the runway to save fuel.

I have never heard of anything so stupid in my life.

As more information comes out about this mess in the electrical |Industry it becomes more and more clear that the big boys have been trying to put the small operators out of business instead of competing with them.

What has been described above would not even happen in a communist country.

Get Real big boys. Run your own business and leave the small man alone.
As JACK CHARLTON says in the song " GO AND COMPETE"

Keep up the good work NECI we are behind you all the way.

EPACE Everybody Protest Against Contractors Elimination!

by Stradbrook - EPACE

Wed Sep 24, 2008 16:22

Lads I am setting up a new organisation called, Everybody Protest Against Contractors Elimination, EPACE for short.

Now it’s not a limited company yet, but I hope the lads in CWPS or the TEEU will send me some of my pension contributions as they do for the other EPACE and my lads have no problem with some of their TEEU subs being siphoned off to the new EPACE.

In any event that’s not a problem because when anybody rings CWPS or the TEEU we wont give them the information that some of their money is going to fund Everybody Protest Against Contractors Elimination, sure CWPS are doing that already because when I called this morning they gave me two figures and informed me that all were required by the Registered Employment Agreement and that the other EPACE was a government body!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Now once we are set up, we will get statutory status, we should have no problem with this as Sinn Fein, The Socialist Workers and no less the Communist Party of Ireland all came out supporting the statutory recognition of the other EPACE so with backing like that we can’t fail. And in the meantime we will fool people into thinking that we already are statutory.

Once set up we will police our employees. We can contact the TEEU and CWPS for their information, names, addresses, who they work for etc, heck why not go all the way and set up a data base that links into the TEEU and CWPS sure that would save the price of the phone call and it wont be difficult as CWPS already have their Data Base linked to the other EPACE, whats one more EPACE.

Once we catch them leaving a site a minute early, or not arriving with the right tools, we will drag them off to the Labour Court where the judges will all be employers and they will fine the be jaysus out of them.

And when the poor unfortunate employee claims he has never heard of the Registered Employment Agreement let alone read the document, we will say well “Tough” off you go and join the ever increasing dole line for construction workers.

You can contact me via this site to sign up to EPACE, Everybody Protest Against Contractors Elimination.

In the meantime we can just sit back, produce nothing, and act like fat cats and watch the money roll in to EPACE (both)

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AECI admits Registered Employment Agreement Flawed

Comments (7 of 7)