Israeli cross party consensus for striking Iran's nuclear plants

by Mr Man Tue Jun 24, 2008 23:28

"E U policy out of line with the wishes of people"

"It is patheitc of you to say that the governments of Europe represent us the people of Europe"

"Represent us? No Chance. We want change in Palestine"

I think you are overestimating the smount of anti-Israeli people in Europe. I would think that the majority of people would not support cutting ties with Israel. Just because you and your friends want to cut ties does not mean that over 50% of the EU population does. You are not "us the people". You can campaign and inform as much as you want but don't assume the voice of Europe. We elect people to do that for us. It's called democracy.

by Rusty O Dwyer Tue Jun 24, 2008 22:36

Sceptic

There is no solution in condemnation. There will be no response from Israel to the empty rhetoric of the politics of condemnation. Israel will only be swayed in it's abusive behaviour through concrete actions that effect it geopolitically.
So, the people, can Boycott Israeli goods and spread the truth about the conditions being forced upon the Palestinians. But the governemetns of Europe must follow up on their own provision in their own agreements to make Israels participation in Europe dependent on their performance in Human Rights.
It is patheitc of you to say that the governments of Europe represent us the people of Europe. All you need do is look at the Lisbon Treaty Constitution Sham. The people of France Holland and Ireland have clearly stated "We dont want your Treaty" But they are still hell bent on making us accept it.

Represent us ? No Chance. We want change in Palestine, We demand that our institutions bring it about through meaningful diplomacy and hard Actions .

by Sceptic Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:43

"We want the ties to be cut, suspended, frozen, etc"

That is the problem. You have adopted an extreme and narrow anti Israeli position which sees no solution to anything except in terms of condemnation of Israel and condemn the EU if it does not give you precisely what you want. Though in fact your own government and all others in the EU have not adopted your line. The EU reflects European opinion generally. Your views do not. You are a single issue protestor who can only think in terms of shouting down and denouncing and isolating. What is so penetrating about your analysis that your view has to be accepted without nuance and any who don't have their motives suspected? There are thirty plus governments in Europe that have deep diplomatic and trading relations with Israel - quite apart from the international bodies like the EU, EFTA, OECD and more. Why are you so sure you and only your solutions are right to the exclusion of all others who study the situation and make policy around it? The EU is not out of line internationally on this. It is you that is out of line.

by Rusty Mon Jun 23, 2008 22:52

Sceptic,

You dont see to be grasping the disparity between where you are coming from and the actual point that was made. It was posted up above in relation to Israel's wild threats to set the ME on fire with an attack on Iran , the post read :

"... at a time when Israel is more a rogue state than ever in its attitude to Palestine and Iran you would expect the EU to be trying some tough diplomacy to avert violence. "

Heres the Israel Foreign affairs ministry account of the recent upgrade in ties where they describe it as ushering in a "new era in Israeli-European relations."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/MFA+Spokes...8.htm

It explains all the good things that Israel are to be granted in this new era of Upgraded European - Israeli ties.
We want the ties to be cut, suspended, frozen, etc. in light of Israeli refusal to adhere to any norm of international relations. You are trying to convince us that the New Era of Relations is a form of punishment in disguise, " soft power" you say.

Its soft alright , soft and brown.

They came to a meeting looking for a wishlist of stuff and they gotta chunk of it. Its calle haggling.Thy are happy in their new era of relations in Europe.

Compare this to Ireland , we voted No in a democratic referendum just like the French and Dutch and we are being told of our new era of relations. The " Get out and Walk" era.

by Sceptic Mon Jun 23, 2008 14:42

Dusty - if you can read officialese you will see from the attached report from the EU news agency that Isreal wanted full participation in the internal market and represnetaion at certian council meetings. What they got was a lot less than this.

“7.(EU) EU/ISRAEL: In its “non paper” discreetly being studied by Commission, Israel aims for quasi-member state status of EU -

Brussels, 04/06/2008 (Agence Europe) - On 7 November 2007, Israel requested its full integration into Community mechanisms in the following policy domains: economic, security, internal market regulation and management, as well as in most Community programmes.

In the non paper, Israel explains that this approach incorporates the demands made at the last Association Council on 5 March 2007. The document stipulates that these demands are based on the “Essen declaration, which recognised the special status of Israel in its relations with the EU, due to its high economic development and reciprocity of common interests”. A reflection group on the question met for the first time on 4 June 2007. At the meeting Israel presented, according to the terms of the non paper, a number of ideas for upgrading its increasingly privileged relations, as covered in the European neighbourhood policy (ENP) association agreement and “action plan”. A second meeting took place on 9 October 2007 under the Portuguese Presidency to prepare a Council declaration. No details have been given since the submission of the non paper on 7 October and this hush-hush negotiation has been denounced by MEPs (see other article).

Israel is calling for both “upgrading in political cooperation to respond to increasing challenges” and “significant integration in the internal market”, as well as full involvement in agency activities, programmes and European working groups. It is also proposing the holding of an annual “summit” (Heads of state of the EU and Israel). Furthermore it is calling for a bi-annual meeting of foreign affairs ministers during each period of the European presidency, and its participation at all thematic Councils (Ecofin, Energy, Environment, etc), as well as meetings at all levels of the expert groups, particularly security and strategic dialogue (COPS), peace process meetings, discussions at the Maghreb and Mashrek committees at the Council, and at the working group on EU activities at the UN.

At a technical level, Israel is requesting full integration into the internal market according to modalities that will be defined later on. It also wants a joint team of experts to be appointed for preparing this question. Israel additionally wants to be a member of all specialist agencies, such as ECHA (European Chemical Agency) and participate in standardisation work etc.

Israel is seeking to join in internal work on the capital markets and financial services for which it is making the significant and desired “re-assessment” approach, a key theme. Similarly, it is calling for the completion of “mutual recognition mechanisms for supervisory authorities” and a “triennial plan for preparing this recognition in the capital, insurance and securities markets”. It also wants to participate in the European tax programme “Fiscalis 2013” and the customs programme. Israel is seeking participation in the RAPEX programmes (rapid alert) and mutual recognition of digital signatures for promoting e-commerce, e-procurement (public procurement) and e-government for creating “a modern business infrastructure”. Its participation would also affect, according to Israel, work on renewable energies, transport, the media, youth, higher education and culture. It is requesting structured consultation on employment and industrial policies and is aiming to set up a joint parliamentary structure. (.F.B.) “

by Rusty O Dwyer Sun Jun 22, 2008 20:09

"It was a deeper level of EU Israeli engagement that was dismissed – the actual agreement is for a lesser level of engagement."

Sceptic,

They looked for deeper levels of engagement, they got deeper levels of engagement and Tsipi Livni herself was celebrating the deeper levels of engagement that they got. And the article is posted in Black and white.

But you still try and convince the world that the EU punished Israel for it's Human rights violation against Palestinians by giving them lesser levels of engagement. But you have an article that you dont have at the moment that makes it all clear.

Typical load of crap from you.

by Sceptic Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:40

I did not write that relations were downgraded. The Israeli side wanted observer status at Council meetings and participation in the internal market on the same basis as the EFTA countries like Norway and Iceland. They wanted other high level participative things also. They were not granted this because of the EU position on policies towards the Palestinians and settlements among other things. The package they did get feel very far short of this. This is the way the EU can make it influence felt by soft power and the power of attraction which is why it has been such a powerful force for good in eastern Europe for instance. I can post the agency copy on this is due course. The recent package was the subject of press releases on the European side but its not big news in Europe like it would be in Israel. But its certainly not that its being kept secret.

by Susan Menton - None Sat Jun 21, 2008 13:42

Sceptic ,

Heres the article in Haaretz in Israel, trumpetting the Upgrade under the headline :

" EU unanimously upgrades Israel ties, turning aside PA objections "

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/993646.html

The following is what the upgraded ties will bring for Israel :

" In the economic sphere, Israel will join European agencies and working groups with the aim of bringing the Israeli economy closer to European standards, and to help Israeli companies more easily contend with the European commercial market, particularly in the fields of high-tech and aviation.

Upgraded ties may also lead to recognition by European academic institutions of degrees awarded by Israeli universities and colleges, a step which would allow Israeli students to study for advanced degrees in European universities and other academic institutions.

In addition, the process would allow grants worth tens of millions of euros to be awarded Israeli scientists and researchers. "

Now if the EU have failed to make a Press Release on the subject it might just be because they are keeping such an potentially embarrassing move as QT as possible. But the fact that the UPgrade is Approved is not a secret . Please explain your claim that relations have been downgraded.

by Sceptic Sat Jun 21, 2008 09:33

It was a deeper level of EU Israeli engagement that was dismissed – the actual agreement is for a lesser level of engagement. I can give you the official European agence news releases if you wish but they are not on the web.

The EU position is a collective one of the member states ultimately – it is not an EU one reached in isolation. It is a reflection of the Governments policies including the Irish. If you dislike the outcome your dispute is with the Governments including your own – not the EU where the policy is derivative.

It is Israel - EU contacts that are the issue – if Ireland was outside the EU its views would be utterly irrelevant as regards relations between the EU and other States. It has nothing to do with an independent Irish foreign policy. Foreign policy is independent but when a common position is arrived at with other States that must be respected.

Bazooka Joe - I am not sure your point ads up as the intel did indicate that Iran was indeed developing such weapons prior to 2006 so was it ok with you that the policy then followed that assessment then? Had the intel found otherwise in 2007 would you have accepted that as a basis of policy?

In any case the Iraqi war was based on out of date intel – the policy makers have to be careful of such assessments is the lesson there. Threats can be both overstated and understated by the agencies – not deliberately – it’s the nature of the business.

by Bazooka Joe Sat Jun 21, 2008 05:42

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/US_allegedly_committed_acts..._year

by Bazooka Joe Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:55

The US National Intelligence Estimate of 2007 stated that Iran had ceased it's efforts to procure nuclear weapons before 2006. Yet Bush and his Israeli friends mislead the world about a nuclear threat from Iran that does not and did not at that time.

In this video Democrat Dennis Kucinich outlines opinions that the MEK and other terrorist groups operating against the Iranian Government are being backed by the CIA with Bush's knowledge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv2SdTeN7dY

by Peter Thu Jun 19, 2008 00:55

Sceptic ,

It is out of the blue.

Check the record you will see that a week ago EU politicians were saying that such an agreement with Israel was unnacceptable , unless it was related to Israel's International obligations to contributing peacefully to the resolution of the Palestinians crisis. But then ...Today, it was passed unconditionally . Such a key note change is unnatural.

You are wrong to confuse the actions of our government in Europe in supporting this sham as being with the will of our people.
You are one more who seeks to cow the Irish people with thinly veiled threats after we voted to signal our chosen way forward.

We dont support the European Political position on the middle East.

We want an individual Irish position. We want it to reflect our opinion as peacekeepers.

by Cyclops Thu Jun 19, 2008 00:11

The "deep level of Palestinian engagement” Sceptic refers to must be all that good feeling dialogue which the EU favours so much in place of action. The EU impose sanctions on the Occupied Palestinian people while rewarding their Zionist tormentors - doesn't exactly seem like fair and balanced - unless your talking Fox News type F& B.
Your heart felt desire for peace and stability would sound more sincere if only you hadn't forgot the all important ingredient - JUSTICE. Without justice there can be no peace and stability. Its one word which scares the bejasus out of Zionist and their apologists - check it out - when did you ever hear then mention the J word. Apart form these slights - what beautiful prose - "troubled region"

Boycott and isolation is the correct answer for the Zionist state. Unfortunately for the moment Zionist funding of political parties like the Labour party in the UK http://www.redress.cc/global/gatzmon20071205 is at such a level it can counter the natural tendency of the population at large to demand that justice must be done. So little wonder corrupt Governments are willing to “maintain friendly policies towards Israel” Given an opportunity there is little doubt about what the people of Europe would say about Israel, after all, 60% of them recognised Israel as the greatest threat to world peace. The EU and Irish political elites got a timely reminder of what democracy is all about last week – so don’t go thinking the approval of corrupted political elites is a seal of approval – the people are waiting in the long grass when democracy returns.

Trying to label people who care about human rights and (the J word again…sorry) justice as Soviets is just another one of the tools of the propagandists who mans the keyboards to defend the indefensible day and night for the Zionist regime in Tel Aviv. No one is fooled by these tactics – move on.

Let’s hear Sceptic’s defence for the killing of 58 Palestinian children since the beginning of 2008 … and don’t delay or that number will soon be over 60.

We should offer prizes for those who can best anticipate the list of excuses – here’s my entry.

“The terrorists hide among the civilians and if it wasn’t’ for Israel’s careful selection of targets many more innocent people would have died. Many times our commanders have called off operations in order to avoid Palestinian casualties”

by Sceptic Wed Jun 18, 2008 21:42

This is not "out of the blue" to those who actually follow these matters – it is a continual process of engagement with a number of third countries of which Israel is one. The most salient fact is that Israel wanted very much closer relations than it is actually getting but these closer relations were withheld because of the Palestinian issue. Much of the impetus for the Israeli engagement with the EU is to balance an already deep level of Palestinian engagement.

The EU is bound to explore means of using its influence to bring peace and stability to troubled regions. The problem is that you are dedicated to and won’t be satisfied with anything less than a policy of isolation and boycotting. But the EU policy is a merely reflection of the policy of the Governments of its Member States all of which do maintain friendly policies towards Israel. Your real quarrel is with them or rather with the people who elect them. Why condemn the EU for having relations with Israel when its member governments including your own have them to a developed degree? When the newly free formerly communist states emerged post 1989 they made a free decision to ditch the rather one sided pro Palestinian attitudes of their former Soviet masters and opt for a more even handed approach. You seem to be back in the old Soviet mould or never moved out of it. You have to realize that yours is a minority and radical view which is not widely shared in Europe. It might be shared somewhat in the Arab world and very much in Iran but that is a different matter. Your views are not representative - those of the EU authorities are.

by Peter Martin Wed Jun 18, 2008 19:48

And at a time when Israel is more a rogue state than ever in its attitude to Palestine and Iran you would expect the EU to be trying some tough diplomacy to avert violence. You would think.

What do they actually do ? They unconditionally reward the country with a huge boost in Europe Israeli ties. In contravention with the pleas of the Palestinians to get Israel to observe it's obligation under the existing agreement and under the Road map for peace and under internaitonal law. In contradiction to the obvious will of organisations here - academic , Industrial and artistic to implement boycotts against the rogue Israeli government to curb its brutality , the EU has practically made Israel an honorary member.

http://euobserver.com/9/26340

They will now enjoy the following rewards :

Specifically, the agreement establishes a joint working group that will explore the ways in which Israel can integrate into the European single market, with a view to further improvements in relations at a later date.

In the field of diplomatic co-operation, the sides will now see an institutionalisation of dialogue, with regular annual high-level meetings.

Israel will also be permitted to join European agencies and programmes.

This comes out of the blue at a time when Ireland is facing being ostracised from Europe for it's recent democratic Vote to reject the Lisbon Treaty in sympathy with our French and Dutch brothers and Sisters. Far from the No Vote being fuelled by an ignorance of the facts about the treaty, I say it is to avoid having decision like this shambles being forced in against our will that we opted to reject the Treaty.
Anyway, Warmongering Facist Israel is in and Democratic Peaceful Ireland is out of Europe.

There's your European democracy and your European response to Israeli bellicosity in the Middle East.