Group says voters kept ignorant about treaty

by Howard Holby Sat May 17, 2008 16:46

Addendum to the former post:
The website of "We the people" is excellent too:
http://www.lisbonvote.com

by Howard Holby Sat May 17, 2008 16:42

Thanks for the news about your NO group. The blog is very well organised with a lot of useful information on the Lisbon Treaty:
http://www.no2lisbon.wordpress.com

by Howard Holby Fri May 16, 2008 19:43

Mr Man wrote:
"My point is that I buy from Germany because the tax is lower. If taxes were homogenised I would not need to."

This is exactly the problem with federalisation: the process of homoginasition, instead of diversifying.

If all the EU-countries become one unit, how can the governments of Europe compete in achieving the best results by showing:

1) the highest economical performance, ie, providing the best monetary and budgetary policies to deal with the issues present in a certain economical unit

2) and in providing the safety for its citizens by ensuring political liberties and human rights under a functioning system of a democratic rule of law?

The assumed advantage of the low prices of Germany is lost by the very process of homoginasition, because the nature of homoginasition is abolishing the differences. By itself it is NOT an asset to buy any products from Germany - or from any other remote place- at a low price, if the transportation costs will raise the price of the product anyway.

Furthermore, low prices are NOT the only factor to consider either, especially if a country has higher buying power because of its increased internal competition. Real efficiency can be achieved ONLY on a case by case basis, when each country can determine which product it can and wants to buy from another country: from another EU country or from outside EU.

One of the main reasons of all economic downturns is the loss of democratic transparency and accountability of the political and economical leadership.

What Ireland can "gain" by transferring its powers as an independent economical unit, to an unaccountable, non-elected and non-transparent group in Brussels, is the opportunity of blind obedience to whatever Brussels will decide about us behind our back.

After Lisbon, there will be no independence for the people of Ireland to demand that the national leaders would provide resolution to any economical or other downturns.

by Mr Man Thu May 15, 2008 18:50

We the people-
"A No vote will not prevent you from consuming German stuff" I never said it would. My point is that I buy from Germany because the tax is lower. If taxes were homogenised I would not need to.

"lose more power...more democratic??"
The way I see it, power in Europe is undemocratic now as Ireland has a disproportional amount of power in relation population size. I prefer systems where smaller groups don't have more power (proportionally) than large groups.

"EU withdrawal from what?" For the first time, the treaty sets out methods for countries to withdraw from the union.

"I don't recall 'comparing' 800years of British Tyranny....."
You pointed out the superiority of EU law over Irish constitutiution, then pointed out that we struggled 800 years for it, inferring that we are throwing away that struggle, going back to the days of rule by a foreign power.

"There are 500million People who do not have the right to vote on this Treaty. They ,like the Brits are screeming for a Referendum on this Treaty. Most of us do not know how lucky we are."
It is unfortunate for them that they cannot vote and they should be allowed to and we are very very lucky, but that is not a reason for us to vote no. If it is good for us, then we can vote yes and let other countries deal with their own problems.

"Are you willing to hand over hard fought for freedom to faceless unelected and unaccountables?""
Why will we be less free? Is free speech going out the window? are other rights going out the window? If we vote it in, we will be doing so out of our own freedom. Faceless? Unelected? Unaccountable? Why? All the positions will have offices, addresses, certainly pictures of the delegates. All positions are elected, maybe not by you but by representatives chosen by us, and representatives chosen by other countries. Like the taoiseach, who is unelected, rather chosen by people chosen by us. And why would they be unaccountable? A little too much 1984 for you I think.

"I am very glad that my Parents did'ent abort me as I would not be writing on this Web Site." As am I. What's your point?

Not everyone is going to agree on this, but in the end, we have the honour of being able to vote. Which just means we have to carefully take into consideration whether we like the way things will be with the treaty or not. I am for it, but I can well understand why people would not be. Its just down to which group is in the majority.

by PBPA - People Before Profit Alliance Thu May 15, 2008 18:20

From Irish Times today 15/05/08:
See also: http://www.no2lisbon.wordpress.com

PEOPLE BEFORE PROFIT: THE GOVERNMENT is deliberately keeping the public in the dark about the detail of the Lisbon Treaty to ensure the referendum is carried, the People Before Profit Alliance claimed as it launched its No campaign yesterday.

Eddie Conlon of the group's steering committee said he would encourage everyone, including the Taoiseach, to read the Lisbon Treaty.

Earlier this week, Mr Cowen acknowledged he had not read the text "from cover to cover", but said he had negotiated 95 per cent of the treaty and knew exactly what was in it.

Mr Conlon said No campaigners had been accused of scaremongering but they seemed to be the only people who had studied the treaty. "I think when people read what's in the treaty they will find that what we say is true."

He said the treaty would lead to the further militarisation of the EU because it called on member states to increase their military spending and obliged them to make their facilities available for EU military activity.

Richard Boyd Barrett said the treaty was an obvious attempt by EU leaders to deceive the European public. "What's absolutely clear at the heart of this is an attempt to ram the treaty through that nobody can understand and to avoid, if at all possible, people having any say on it."

He said politicians on the Yes side never talked about the substance of the treaty. "In particular you do not see them address the specific aspects of the treaty that have been highlighted by the No campaign around the issues of democracy, around the issues of militarisation, around the issues of the threat the Lisbon Treaty poses to our public services."

He said the Lisbon Treaty was "a recipe for privatisation of public services in Europe, for the further militarisation of the European Union, for the creation of a European army that's going to have a more aggressive military role on the world scene."

by We the People Thu May 15, 2008 17:24

Inept in may areas indeed. But it does not warrent the total handover of the Country's Soverignty and Constitution.
The issue is much bigger than abortion.

by choronzon Thu May 15, 2008 15:33

"The Charter of Rights attached to Lisbon is Legally binding and gives the EU the right to decide our Laws in important social areas like abortion and Family Law."
This would be a good thing. Successive Irish governments have clearly been inept and spineless when it comes to coming up with a coherent policy on social areas such as abortion. I would applaud if the EU forced our government to tackle this properly.

by We the People Thu May 15, 2008 15:20

Hi Man. A No vote will not prevent you from consuming German stuff. It's your choice. If anything consumerism is promoted as never before. There is too much money involved in People consuming.

I fear no Cultural diversity , I lived in Africa and found it an educational experience and welcome different cultures in Ireland, it is refreshing and clears a stagnant mindset.

I do not understand your phrase ..lose more power...more democratic??

EU withdrawal from what? Please clarify.

I don't recall 'comparing' 800years of British Tyranny in Ireland to the forthcoming Orwellian EU Empire
or 'stretched it at all'??

There are 500million People who do not have the right to vote on this Treaty. They ,like the Brits are screeming for a Referendum on this Treaty. Most of us do not know how lucky we are. Are you willing to hand over hard fought for freedom to faceless unelected and unaccountables?

And last but not least , I am very glad that my Parents did'ent abort me as I would not be writing on this Web Site. Like you.

by Mr Man Thu May 15, 2008 14:17

"We'll lose control of our Taxes" But won't that mean might go down? Currently I buy lots from germany because their tax is lower.

"the EU can decide our immigration Policy" Might not be so bad. Are you afraid of an 'insert bigoted stereotype here' invasion?

"We lose power in Europe" Isn't this more democratic? Don't we have disproportionally large say now? (correct me if I'm wrong, I may be mistaken here)

"this Treaty states clearly....EU Law is superior to the Irish Constitution" Doesn't it also create a viable method for EU withdrawal?

"after 800 years of tyranny" Comparing EU power to English rule is stretching it a bit far.

"gives the EU the right to decide our Laws in important social areas like abortion and Family Law" Well, i'm pro-choice so I wouldn't mind but didn't they just explicitly state that this wasn't the case?

"Is it not insanity for People to be undecided as to which way to vote?" Not really

by We the People Thu May 15, 2008 12:32

Besides all of the above , it will also do the following. A statement from COIR whom many of us agree with on a number of issues.

STATEMENT:

1. The Lisbon Treaty comes with a heavy cost to Ireland: We'll lose control of our Taxes (Art.113), the EU can decide our immigration Policy (Art. 79), and we lose the right to attract foreign investment as we see fit (Art.207).

2. We lose power in Europe - no Commissioner for 1/3 of the time and our voting rights are slashed by 60% while Germany's increase by 100%.

3. For the first time, this Treaty states clearly - in Declaration 17 on primacy - that EU Law is superior to the Irish Constitution.

( A Draft the People succeeded in giving to themselves after 800 years of tyranny.)

The Charter of Rights attached to Lisbon is Legally binding and gives the EU the right to decide our Laws in important social areas like abortion and Family Law.

Is it not insanity for People to be undecided as to which way to vote?

by isn supporter Thu May 15, 2008 10:49

Well done on the press conference. Good points etc. One quibble, though. This isn't a very good argument:

"It claims Lisbon reduces the areas where governments can veto policy proposals."

This is very far from being a revolutionary socialist concern. Who cares if Gordon Brown or Brian Cowen lose or retain their vetos? Declan Ganley maybe.

by PBPA - People Before Profit Alliance Thu May 15, 2008 08:38

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0514/eulisbon_av.html?23743...l,230