Is this a case for Secularisation of the Political Sphere?

by C Murray Sun Mar 30, 2008 18:53

These are the links to a the news treatment of T. Blair's business interest in attracting
corporates into the UK whom have specific interests in the HFE and all it pertains.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5229456.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5056554.htm
http://www.genomics.weblog.glam.ac.uk/categories/show

The thread is http://www.indymedia.ie/article/72128

New Labour were also involved in instituting legislations to allow the state to pay
a cheque of 250 pounds to women to harvest eggs for corporate research.

The HFE has many supports and benefits (as mentioned on another thread) but the
ethical issues are based in monetary gain for sections of the UK population using
raw material (eggs) harvested from women who need the cash.

Midwives have extracted stem cell material painlessly from women with consents
as part of partruition, the HFE in toto carries with it amendments that effect the abortion
rights of English and Irish women who use the services, the link to the petition
against the abortion reduction amendment is above in the article.

There seems to be a move in legislations that categorically put the needs of corporatism
above the human rights of individuals- the confusion and argument caused by the Bill
is centred in the ethical disagreements re Chimeric materials and not in the individuals
rights to privacy.

by C Murray Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:31

Of course one of the women who fought hard to retain the UK 24 week abortion limit was Cherie Blair
who is a non-traditional political wife , a lawyer and a practising Roman Catholic.

The HFE obfuscates the issues of stemcell research and chimeric creations along with the issues
of hard fought for women's rights. Midwifes, have with the consent of women removed stem cell
materials from the umbilicus for research purposes, the economic grounding of invasive egg
extraction which involves ovary stimulant drugs is a choice issue- and usually related to IVF procedures.

It is also an issue of poverty , that huge multinationals can force through legislations that carry
amendments that directly effect the human rights of women and girls. One of the few countries
that has a codicil against forced IVF is Colombia, there is a hell of an amount on pressure on
kids growing up to fufill perceived societal roles. Viewing them as raw material in order to
find health benefits for first world countries is vaguely obscene.

The issues of further preganancies to help sibling illness, tissue compatibility, stem cell
extractions from umbilicus and in the final analysis the huge amount of money pushed
into corporates , along with the amendment to the abortion limit possibly make this
bill one of the most divisive in the UK.

The issue of abortion rights should not be lumped into a bill which is so divisive, it stinks of
lack of consultation and disempowerment. Irish women who use British abortion services have
a vested interest in ensuring that the whole impact of the legislation is discussed from a rights
point of view.

£250 pounds is a piddling amount of money to offer someone for the right to harvest eggs
using ovarian stimulants in order to benefit other people, along with an erosion of accepted rights.
(sperm garnering being an infinitely simpler practice: a mag and a cup)

by Brian Mon Mar 31, 2008 13:06

Do you not think the practice of performing 24 week (partial birth) abortions to be utterly barbaric.

Doctors have to physically amputate the limbs of the unborn child, decapitate it and then remove it piece by piece from the womb. No anesthetic is administered despite the fact the unborn child feels everything and screams of pain have been heard by those present.

Sick disgusting inhumane behaviour.

by C Murray Mon Mar 31, 2008 13:18

Do you worry about the images of wars and violence that are before the 8pm deadline?
Do you worry that kids are consuming war and violence with their teas?

I do not buy into visual propaganda.

the abortion issue, including the 24 week deadline should be discussed in the context of equal
access for all in a public health care system. i would imagine that de-criminalisation and consultation
with midwifery, NGO groups and women would ensure that the issue (currently exported to the UK
from the 26 counties and northern ireland) is dealt with in a not for profit manner through
a public health care system that sees women as equal partners in their health issues.

discussions on abortion limits should include late diagnosis of non-viability, the
choice of induction and in the case of grief the registration of the birth. they should
include discussions of the whole range of pregnancy care for women and girls
which includes the issue of choice in illness and continuing medical care in post
abortion/induction scenarios.

These discussions cannot take place in a society that refuses to even speak the word
and TD's ignore phonecalls on issues that are actually relevant to a sizeable amount
of their electorate...

I am tired of listening to the too delicate freak out on things that they do not
fully understand, the issue of privacy and integrity of women and girls in relation to
pregnancy care/sex education/rights to medical information/right to abortion is not all
lumped together into a statement :'abortion is always wrong'.

Thats crap. Abortion needs discussing within the context of properly provisioned and
equal services to women and girls in ireland.

by pacifist Mon Mar 31, 2008 14:19

You state that abortion "should be discussed in the context of equal
access for all in a public health care system" - but you are thereby excluding all those citizens male and female who see it in the context of preventing new life. How can pacifists campaign against war industries and at the same time demand the 'right' to destroy growing babies in the womb? It looks like mixed-up ethics to me. It would be like temperance campaigners in 19th century England campaigning for the right of adults to choose to open gin parlours.

by Brian Mon Mar 31, 2008 14:30

"I am tired of listening to the too delicate freak out on things that they do not
fully understand, the issue of privacy and integrity of women and girls in relation to
pregnancy care/sex education/rights to medical information/right to abortion is not all
lumped together into a statement :'abortion is always wrong'."

Abortion is not always wrong, but you need to refine your arguement within the context of 24 week abortion which IS always wrong except where the mothers life is in danger. You speak of those who do not understand and refuse to buy into 'visual propoganda'. What I have described in my last post is what happens during a partial birth abortion and it needs to be condemned, there are no mitigating circumstances or contexts to view it within to rationalise it. It is wrong, it is barbaric and in my view murder.

by C Murray Mon Mar 31, 2008 18:25

spontaneous abortion, or late miscarriage is something that women and their partners
deal with in a grief situation- this can happen at 24 weeks- it can happen before.
it can and should be a right to access, if necessary, a medical induction within a state
hospital and counselling(if required)

no-one would dream of putting the photos up , and yet pro-life groups
use images of aborted foetuses on the streets of dublin, that is to me deeply offensive
and pornographic.

This thread is about the HFE in the UK and how the UK government has managed
to get an amendment into it which is aimed at reducing late term abortion which
has started protests on right to choose issues. Many of us are lucky not to have
to confront these issues- demonising women for their choice is not where you begin
a discussion on abortion rights. subjecting kids to images of foetal death is not
where you begin. Ireland is behind in human rights, including the right of
a woman or a girl to get these procedures in her country, in her local maternity
hospital and in the care and support of her family.

The question of using visual propagandist material to advocate against that
right is offensive and suspect, if you want to ensure that issues of privacy and
dignity of the human person is adhered too, then begin with controls. though
given the fact that the current Minister for Health will not even look at the rogue
agencies thats a flipping tall order. Cherie Blair was one who fought for the 24 week
termination in the UK (and as I stated above she is a practising RC, there is no honesty
in a debate that reduces everything to demonisation and refuses to address the issues).

by Brian Mon Mar 31, 2008 21:03

“spontaneous abortion, or late miscarriage is something that women and their partners
deal with in a grief situation- this can happen at 24 weeks- it can happen before.”

Here’s where your argument falls down. Miscarriage (Spontaneous abortion) has absolutely nothing to do with planned abortion which is what this thread is about. They are not two sides of the same coin and shame on you for attempting to portray them as such.

“no-one would dream of putting the photos up , and yet pro-life groups
use images of aborted foetuses on the streets of dublin, that is to me deeply offensive!”

Why is it offensive, whatever about early abortion which I have no problem with for a myriad of reasons, I see no problem with showing the public the full horror of a partial birth abortion. Its called informing those who would vote on such matters so they are fully aware of what they are voting on.

Why you insist on reducing this to a situation where woman are being demonised is quite frankly bewildering. If you feel you need to anesthetise or gentrify the procedure in order to make it more palatable or inoffensive then you need to re-examine your conscience. You are calling for partial birth abortion (late abortion up to 24 weeks) to be legal and available on demand. To do so you need to be fully aware of what that entails, gruesome reality and all.

by C Murray Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:01

but I do not expect anyone who supports the medieval hanging up of images of dead
individuals on the streets of Dublin to get that.. afterall the privacy and bodily integrity of
the woman or girl is unknown to those who politicise their fear of sexuality and reproduction.

There is no difference to me in the issue of late -term miscarriage and medical abortion
at the 24 week limit, both involve loss. And yes you are demonising women through
choice of language, through choice of image, through political pressure and through
a complete inability to understand the Right of the Individual to privacy in relation to
reproductive choice issues.

Women and girls have the right privacy and to bodily integrity in the
issue of choice.

The HFE reduces the right of Irish Women to medical termination and abortion because
in Ireland abortion is criminalised and after 16 years of refusal to address the issue by
any government, we find ourselves in a situation where women's rights are at the bottom
of the 'to do pile' . It's completely unacceptable that women and girls must leave this
jurisdiction to access those rights and must return to a situation wherein continuity
of care issues are not even regulated (nor rogue agencies= for profit concerns).

Legislate for 'X'-

by C Murray Wed Apr 02, 2008 14:14

Scientists have created the first human-animal hybrids using cow materials. they survived three days in the test-tube.
the experiments have not been independently verififed but in the absence of legislation the issue has become moot:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-cr....html

the HFE legislation which has a free vote was to legislate for the multinationals (attracted by Blair into the UK)
to carry out the work of Chimeric development, part of that legislation ,an amendment has sought to reduce
the upper limit on abortion (currently standing at 24 weeks, fought for by Cherie Blair) in the absence
of consultations with women's right's groups.

At the moment Cameron (Tory) has said he wishes to reduce the abortion limit.
Galloway opposes the HFE .

Women's Rights Groups are calling a protest on May 7th in Outside Westminister.

http://www.abortionrights.org.uk

and a week long campaign in April to oppose the HFE ( with specific emphasis on the amendment and it's
repurcussions for women, including Irish women who use the British services).

by C Murray Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:16

The Bill, including stages and explanatory:

http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2007-08/humanfertil....html

Biotech business:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5229456.stm

(the right hand column of this page has links to other news on the US giants and Britain)

Abortion rights campaign:-

http://www.abortionrights.org.uk

Hybrid creations announced yesterday:-

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scieintists-c....html

top of article deals with the infilitration by CARE a Christian evangelical group into the mechanisms
of Westminister in the run -up to the Bill (which is for profit), meantime there are accusations of
reports all over UK media of 'poverty suppression'-

http://www.indymedia.org.uk

(for independent media analysis of political issues in the UK)

by hmmmmmmmm Fri Apr 04, 2008 00:25

Who has brought a right wing secular dimension & interest to arguments not seen since Germaine Greer's "Sex and Destiny: The Politics of Human Fertility", published in 1984 when of course she quite cogently argued that European abortion coupled with European society serves the interest of European bourgoise to have their kids despite their fertility and low fecundity index, kids who will in turn parasite on the "over-population" of Africa or their local working class suburbs. But of course the new pro-life take in Italy isn't quite forthcoming or frank. Berlusconi is backing the "secular" campaign being led by the editor of the daily "Foglio", Giuliano Ferrara. This allows Berlusconi to convince Catholics who would otherwise think him to sleezy to vote for him again (now they learnt he wasn't infallible) that he attracts rightwing elements who don't have to be Catholic.

It's all very clever. Behind it all though its part of the RC church's attempts together with their new allies amongst the US christians to push a UN moritorium on abortion which is being pitched like that which sort of worked on the daeth penalty. These moratoria aren't binding. If you want to ponder the politics & don't believe the RC church really do anything for ethical reasons but merely use those arguments to preserve poewr, they want to increasethe Catholic birth rate in states which are increasingly seeing higher muslim birthrates thanks to the true figures of non practicants. That's obvious, because so far the RC church has not attempted to draw the muslim congregations into the campaign.

In sharp contrast to the former papacy which did rise the subject of cloning and chimera research before the joint prayers of the Imam of Damascus and JP2. The only time in recorded history such a thing happened. Big news stories, indeed. Huge politics. Merit lots of attention. I'd leave the campaigns against chimera out of it. In some way the gurggling of the RC Scottish primate upset already very cogent secular & scientific based objections to the current & licensed proposed chimera creation research projects.

I'll put it simply - if only richer people of low fertility have children or use other poorer peoples' eggs to have children, then who do you think is going to get a cure for Alzheimers or Parkinsons or enhanced embryo benefits? That breaks the "we are created equally self-evidence" rule.

by C Murray Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:26

it is in the interests of governments to increase the participation of women at all levels
of democratic representation.

This does not happen in the countries that are dominated by gender -imbalanced, male
hierarchies who have token women and pay lip-service to gender inclusivity. Like the
US, Like Britain and like Ireland. if we did not have a female president for two terms, then
our gender representation would have been below sub-saharan levels of inclusivity.

Of course there are moves on the UN to tailor abortion rights, as there were on the
Un in relation to illegal war. civil society and NGO repression is endemic in Countries
that do not advocate equality of represenation.

this is a link to ban Ki-Moon's speech on violence against women:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/86426

He has asked NGO's and civil society groups to collate data on gender representation
and for national governments to show measurable reforms, this does not mean
funding, it means consultation. the HFE did not consult on the proposed amendments
to the abortion laws- it went ahead and put the needs of profit-making corps before
the needs of the individual. it is an example of how governments disempower
women through lack of consultation and lack of information. for any representative
org to be viable it must include women in the process of negotiation and
discussion specifically in relation to issues that effect women and girls.

The RC Church is completely irrelevant, it cannot one the one hand demand changes
to accepted rights without recognising their existence in International law...that would mean
that in essence they have to accept the human right of the child to privacy and
bodily integrity which they clearly have not done in Nicaragua by interefering in the
electoral process and adding to the enslavement of women and girls by pushing for a total
ban on abortion rights (which led to the Rosita case).

The RC communion does not look on women as equal ,which is against internationally
accepted Laws.

They do not accept the Rights of the Child, which is against international laws.

increasing the equality agenda and women's representation cannot be achieved
without the recognition of these rights and freedoms.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/86281
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/85907

Universal rights to freedom of religious expression is one thing: secularisation
of the political sphere quite another.