RTE discuss Rendition. Pat Kenny interviews...

by Dave Tue Dec 11, 2007 13:40

9/11 was the last major Al-Qaida attack on American soil because the US toppled the Taliban and is currently fighting Al-Qaida in both Afghanistan and Iraq, has killed thousands of Muslim fanatics and terrorists and is seizing imprisoning and interrogating individuals who are involved in Islamic extremist activities thereby interrupting terrorist plots and protecting the citizens of Western democracies from terrorist attacks.

by Delighted Tue Dec 11, 2007 13:55

"2,000 deaths weekly six months ago, down to 600 deaths a week now"

Good. Hopefully 600 deaths will be reduced further.

by mé féin - tnc Tue Dec 11, 2007 14:51

Dave, 911 was the only attack on American soil (officially all Saudi Arabians carried it out) - the Americans didn't topple the Taliban, they supported and funded them to fight the Russians well before they realised there is a huge pipeline going through Afghanistan!
The Americans (Bush and co.) don't care about global well being, they just want to control the middle east for its oil reserves! and just like any other occupied country (which included this one), it will produce extremists to counteract injustice - the Islamic religions have noting to do with it!
As for Pat the plank he will stay a good little boy while American military planes land in Shannon, because he doesn't want to lose his pay cheques and upset the corrupt fucks in Fianna fáil.
So as this is going on we will remain good little Christians chopping down trees and decorating them and shoving stuffing up turkeys holes in memory of the baby Jesus!
Nollaig Shona!

by míse arís - tnc Tue Dec 11, 2007 15:07

Ireland failing on renditions - report

Ciara O'Brien

Ireland is failing to live up to its human rights obligations by accepting diplomatic assurances that flights used for extraordinary rendition are not passing through Irish airports, the Irish Human Rights Commission said today.

Publishing a report on the subject today Commissioner Suzanne Egan said assurances from the US authorities that aircraft landing in Ireland are not being used for the transport of detainees are not enough, and an inspection regime should be implemented.

The IHRC recommended the inspection regime as part of a package of measures, including making the provision of detailed information about each flight, its purpose and its passengers before they land on Irish soil a condition of entry to the State. It also urged the establishment of a Garda sub-station at Shannon Airport and, if necessary, legislation to ensure that any aircraft alleged to be involved in extraordinary rendition cannot leave the State before an inspection is carried out.

"'Extraordinary rendition is an illegal practice which results in torture, and to meet its human rights obligations, the Irish Government must put in place an effective inspection regime to ensure that no foreign aircraft suspected of involvement in the practice land or refuel in Ireland," said Des Hogan, Director of Enquiry & Legal Services of the IHRC.
© 2007 ireland.com

by paul o toole Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:05

I diddnt realise that this discussion on RTE took place on the same day that the irish comissioner for human rights disclosed his report on Rendition.
Even more shame on Pat Kenny for limiting this discussion in light of the latest report condemming the Irish for accepting 'assurances' from the US torturer(s).
Everything we as a 'civilised' nation claim we used to abhore; concentration camps, pre-emptive war, genocide, torture, rape, sanctions, mass murder- all things we pompusly condem the Nazis for having done...we now fully support.
The government are to cowardly to say no to their White-House masters, and the 'national broadcaster' RTE do a wonderful job of pretending to have balanced debate but in reality they subtly support the governments role in this destruction of human life.

Soon to be sainted, Pat Kenny, has done a wonderful job of protecting the government on several occasions. It would seem that RTE has him as the face (and voice) of decorum when government policy is up for question, You can depend on Pat because he sees to it that it is never ever, open for question.
As regards Rendition, Im sure it will continnue, and we will continnue to hypocritically condem Nazi-ism as the worst of what mankind is capable.
I am appalled at the new policies being played out on the world stage, but we can rest assured that this new normality will remain, because RTE will never challenge this in any manner even approaching meaningful.
Merry Christmas to all.

by R. Wed Dec 12, 2007 18:16

Patrick and Alexander Cockburn run Counterpunch[1]. Their father was Claud (famous CPGB journalist rightly maligned in _Homage to Catalonia_ for his coverage of the Stalinists/Communists attack on the anarchists and trotskyists. Claud moved to Ireland in the late 1940s.

The details of the Yang ki-tak affair can be read in Patrick Cockburn's recent piece[2] at the link below:

[1] http://www.counterpunch.org
[2]

by anon Wed Dec 12, 2007 21:26

The commentary continues: "It is our view that the commission's interpretation of the law relating to diplomatic assurances is overly broad, in that it seeks to extract from the jurisprudence general principles that are not established in law."

It states that the assurances received from the US authorities are "specific, factual and relate to the very existence of such persons".

Referring to an inspection regime, the department states: "We do not believe that the introduction of such a regime is necessary, likely to be useful or justified by any reasonable assessment of the facts and probabilities of the situation as they are known to us.

Ahern said the IHRC "would also appear to give more credence to a self-appointed 'activist group' than to the categoric and unqualified assurances of the democratically elected government of the US."

The IHRC recommended the inspection regime as part of a package of measures, including making the provision of detailed information about each flight, its purpose and its passengers before they land on Irish soil a condition of entry to the State.

Somebody mentioned an article in the Sunday Tribune about Shannon agitating to become a hub for Europe for private planes, it not online though.

Shannon an open door to drugs and Crime: Clare Champion
http://212.147.150.8/clch/www/index.asp?magpage=1&issid...=7267
FG wants random searches outside clubs and BAhern wants house parties raided but still few searches of private planes.

IHRC denies its accusing US of lying on rendition http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=86502&pt=n

The Irish Human rights Commission is denying that it's effectively accusing the US government of lying to the Irish government over rendition.Speaking on Live 95fm`s Limerick Today programme, Commission spokesman Des Hogan says he accepts the Irish Government has been asking the necessary questions of the United States.

Not lying but evading the issue while pretending to be concerned cyclically the IHRC is part of the pretense.

by Observer Fri Dec 14, 2007 13:17

The spokesperson for the Commission in that particularly interview was Des Hogan and what he actually indicated was that:

(1) Legally the assurances given are not binding and are not enforceable so therefore it is not a matter of believing the US politicians or not.

(2) He also indicated that, as in the case of the infamous prison torture in Iraq by the Amarican Military the US senior politicians and diplomats are not and cannot be aware of what goes on day to day within the CIA or the Armed Forces of the US.

Try not to misquote someone and then use it to make critical comment upon an orginisation that has done great work on the issue of Rendition in the face of huge Government pressue to do nothing.

by anon Mon Dec 17, 2007 15:33

Dermot Ahern chooses his words carefully
Reacting to the report, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Dermot Ahern, said no evidence had been produced that that anyone had been subject to extraordinary rendition through Ireland
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2007/1212/1197....html

Ciaran cuffe picks him up on this point
"I believe the inspection of any aircraft that has been involved in rendition in the past should be considered. In my opinion, the previous usage of these aircraft in such circumstances may provide sufficient grounds for their inspection if they land on Irish soil.
http://www.greenparty.ie/news/latest_news/greens_welcom...eport

Ahern choose his words less carefully, typical bluster
B Ahern said on the 11 of December that (neither the airport) nor the any of the planes had anything to do with rendition... a bold claim. considering all the research by the EU, the COE,Stephen Grey, Swedish TV prog,PBS, CBS, chicago tribune, the ACLU,a former Jeppesen employeee and Irish plane watchers on these planes.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jEcpAO94pyE2bkHoA5Rq...LONG0
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2007/1213/1197....html

Rendition claims tarnishing airport: Ahern
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mheyaumhcwey
But Mr Ahern explained that anybody with credible evidence of extraordinary rendition should report it to the Gardaí. A recent complaint led to the search of a plane which found a group of golfers on their way to Ballybunion.
Great Ahern tell us the number of that flight and we can cross it off the list 1 down hundreds to go, although the plane should be still forensically searched because it has been used in kidnap

It also seems that they havn't checked a plane in over a year

ps I didn't misquote anybody I quoted the utv news article which MR Hogan replied to the headline in the piece seems other have problem with what he says too
http://www.emigrant.ie/article.asp?iCategoryID=9&iArtic...72323
A spokeswoman for the IHRC was somewhat disingenuous when interviewed on RTÉ and almost certainly gave the impression to many listeners that prisoners had been on US aircraft that had made stopovers at Irish airports. Those who listened closely would have realised that she was alleging that aircraft, which had been used for "extraordinary rendition", had at some stage also passed through Irish airports, without explaining why such an observation was relevant.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1211/rendition.html
more playing dumb from that journalist

as the IHRC report does point out that the gov keeps quoting the chicago convention which says private planes do not need prior permission or to give details for technical stops but at the same time Ireland and many other EU countries are looking to overturn this rule in the name of counter terrorism.

Interesting paper I came across
Ireland's Potential Liability for Extraordinary Renditions through Shannon Airport
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=9886...nload
It concludes that, although it might be said that the Irish government is not doing enough to prevent extraordinary rendition through Shannon Airport, it appears that Ireland is fulfilling its positive obligations under international law.

The technical term for those diplomatic assurances is bollox, what about the pilots and personal on those planes coming through Ireland on the way to and from renditions.

Link for previous piece re diplomatic response, I lost the first half of my comment above
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2007/1212/1197....html

link to IHRC report
http://www.ihrc.ie/_fileupload/publications/IHRC_Rendit...L.pdf

by Observer Mon Dec 17, 2007 20:15

Is it me or did the Taoiseach not say in his Dail statement that planes have been searched? This is a wholely new proposition. In the past the Minister for Foreign Affairs when challenged by the IHRC has merely stated that the Gardai have investigated and never indicated that planes were searched. Surely the whole point of the debate is that the IHRC said planes should be searched and the minister for foreign affairs said that they would not. Is someone telling a lie??

by anon Thu Dec 20, 2007 19:34

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20071212...H2#H2

It the government police stated policy not to search/check the planes, so it seems Ahern know more then he lets on.

Ahern It is not a case of whether we are about to start inspections; we started doing them a long time ago wherever there was any suspicion, evidence or talk.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins: There have never been any inspections.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore: Information Zoom There is a fundamental difference in having a system of inspections and the system the Taoiseach has just described. What the Government is saying is essentially that if anybody in County Clare hears that somebody is being moved through Shannon for the purposes of torture and they go into their local Garda station and report it, the Garda will then go and inspect the aeroplane. If one has that kind of daft position, it is no wonder one ends up finding golfers on the aeroplane rather than anything of greater substance.

Pádraic McCormack TD FG and Brian Hayes TD FG both feels it is appropriate to make jokes when discussing kidnap and torture

Ahern Extraordinary claim.
There is an issue about highlighting Shannon Airport when there is absolutely no evidence of people, aeroplanes or anything else to do with extraordinary rendition.

As the Government has repeatedly emphasised, the Garda Síochána already has full powers to search civil aircraft of the type alleged to have been involved in extraordinary rendition, where it has reasonable grounds for suspecting illegal activity such as extraordinary rendition. The Garda has investigated a number of allegations and found no basis on which to proceed.

a bold claim. considering all the research by the EU, the COE,Stephen Grey, Swedish TV prog, DeWelt magazine,PBS, CBS, Chicago Tribune, the ACLU,a former Jeppesen employeee and Irish plane watchers on these planes.
Is the record of these planes enough to have them searched every time they land?

D.Ahern is more careful with his words IHRC report.

A response from the Minister for Foreign Affairs to the IHRC was received in July
2006. The Minister reiterated that ‘there is no evidence, nor even any concrete and
specific allegation, that prisoners have been brought through Ireland as part of an
“extraordinary rendition” operation’. He did not address the evidence that aircraft
involved in ‘extraordinary rendition’ activities appear to have stopped and refuelled
at Shannon

by anon Thu Jan 03, 2008 23:05

The only thing to do is to ban the charter/aircraft companies from using our airports
and if they claim they don't know who is using their planes for what, or that its stopping rich gits and golfers from flying then this might make em check more. As we know Jeppensen Boeing who charter the flights know what they are doing and consider themselves uber patriots for kidnapping and torturing people.

There are dozen companies listed in the IHRC and European reports that are shell companies or regular contractors for the CIA. I don't care if they also transport Ozzy Osbourne about the place.( Four specific aircraft and companies involved in rendition listed below.)

The problem with the IHRC report is the mixed between accepting the governments word on the issue at one point and then not on another. How can you work on the basis of laws that the prepetrator your investigating writes?

The is good reason to criticise the IHRC what use is human rights commission if it can't investigate the facilation of the invasion.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82629

You can't accept that the governments abhors extradinay rendition, while the continue to trivialise it, and question its existence, the policy is to ignore it not abhor it, because its the United States.

The government response highlights the commissions use of strong informal language but the IHRc uses that language because of the reprehensivenes of the kidnap and torture and its overflows into their discussion of Ireland's part of it, the governments response tries to separate it all out based on "but you can't prove that is happening in Ireland or that we could know it is happening".

The gardai investigation seems to be only asking the airport staff about the flights and looking at the provided log information it doesn't even go as far as checking let alone searching.

Then there's the 'not every CIA flight is a rendition flight line', well this is the organisation that brought you Abu Gharib who abuse and tortured and beat and molested people, you go find the pictures of that that nobody wants to look at. Last week a former CIA agent admitted they torture.Should such a organistion get a free reign to fly through our airspace? Or CACI the private contractors who carried out the interrogations and abuse. The IHRC doesn't even broach this subject. The focus should be on the organistation and the personnel the pilots carrying out these crimes not the aircraft.

Dermot Ahern said there was enough suspicion of plane associated with the Omar rendition and 3 others for the Gardai to have proper legal reasons to investigate the plane, but he say the gardai chose not to for some unknown reason.

that it did transit
through Shannon Airport in and around the
time of the alleged abduction of Abu Omar.
That is a fact.
In relation to the issue of whether that plane
continued to fly into Shannon Airport, yes,
of course the Irish Government would
expect that it would be subject to suspicion
and subject to examination by the Garda
Síochána. Again, I would go back to the
point that it is not a matter for the
Government to intervene

www.europarl.europa.eu/comparl/tempcom/tdip/reports/20061130_en.pdf

Simon Coveney did raise a lot of questions in the EP about the issue but was more precise and functional about his questions basically performing the role of opposition because he knows that he would have to make excuses for co-operating with kidnap and torture if he was in government as would Maurice Manning if he was still a FG TD, and as now the Greens do so.

Fights, aircraft and companies Dermot Ahern agrees are suspect.
Aircraft identified by Amnesty International as involved in specific CIA “rendition”
operations

N313P A Boeing 737-7ET aircraft registered by Stevens Express Leasing Inc., then
by Premier Executive Transport Services. Later re-registered as N4476S by Keeler
and Tate Management. This plane took a German citizen called Khaled al-Masri,
who was kidnapped in Macedonia, to Afghanistan in January 2004. It appears to have
stopped off at Shannon en route to Macedonia. Amnesty has recorded that it landed at
Shannon 23 times and at Dublin twice between 2002 and 2005. Minister for
Transport Martin Cullen TD said in a written answer in the Dail recently that it had
landed 14 times at Shannon.

N379P A Gulfstream V executive jet owned by Premier Executive Transport Services
and later re-registered as N8068V and then N44982. This plane was nicknamed the
“Guantanamo Bay Express” because of the frequency of its trips there. It was used to
take Ahmed Agiza from Sweden to Egypt. Amnesty has recorded that it landed at
Shannon 22 times. Minister Martin Cullen said it had landed 12 times at Shannon
under the registration number N379P and three times as N8068V.
N829MG A Gulfstream III owned by Mark J. Gordon Aviation and then by S & K
Aviation LLC, which re-registered it as 259SK. This plane took Maher Amar, who
had joint Canadian/Syrian citizenship from New York to Jordan in 2002, from where
he was transferred to Syria where he was tortured. It has also made a lot of trips to
Guantanamo Bay. Amnesty has recorded it as landing twice at Shannon. Minister
Cullen gave no figures for it.

N85VM A Gulfstream IV owned by Assembly Point Aviation Inc. and operated by
Richmor Aviation. Re-registered as N227SV. This plane was involved in transporting
an Egyptian cleric called Abu Omar to Egypt after he had been kidnapped by CIA
personnel in Italy in February 2003. It flew to Shannon afterwards. Amnesty has
recorded it as landing 30 times at Shannon and once in Dublin. Minister Martin
Cullen said it had landed 19 times at Shannon.

In the oireachtas committee they said there are ten thousands of private flights and going through Irish airports and its impossible to check them as they go through without notice, well you can ban the dozen or so companies prevent them coming from, both Dermot Ahern and Rory Montgormery say that level of reasonable suspicious has been reached thus you can ban entire companies pilots and personnel knowingly facilitating torture and kidnapping.