Harristown Drivers marching on Dublin Bus HQ

by Polarised queue jumper Tue Nov 13, 2007 13:59

Two routes in my area:- one effected by the strike (no83) one not. I awaited a bus in the freezing cold with
a small child this morning, traffic chaos and over-packed 18 did not deter me from supporting the strike.
The state hopes to polarise opinion by creating negative propaganda to give the routes to their cronies.
Seamus Brennan started this shit.

Solidarity to the bus drivers and when the strike is over- consider supporting nurses and health staff
cos everything is being privatised by the assholes who think that the pay off will benefit them in the
short -term.

by Dave Tue Nov 13, 2007 14:58

Using the public as currency for a 'cause' like this is hardly worthy of support.

I'd be cycling by and using my fiungers to let them know how many wheels are under me.

by curious. Tue Nov 13, 2007 15:07

And would they have suspended ye, if ye just worked as normal without adopting the changes?

by Sympathetic passenger Tue Nov 13, 2007 15:36

Looks like we could all be walking to work tomorrow. However, that still won't stop me from supporting the drivers. I think we need a big escalation in this strike soon to force things to a head. Otherwise if it's confined to Harristown, Dublin Bus will let it drag on for weeks.

by Dave Tue Nov 13, 2007 15:41

Two years ago the drivers went on strike because EU legislation restricted their working week to 48 hours and the company wouldn't compensate them.

What a load of nonsense.

The union don't really have a leg to stand on. Previous systems weren't agreed....they just suited.

If my job moved further away, would I strike and look to be compensated for the extra travelling to and from work?

Would anyone?

by student Tue Nov 13, 2007 16:04

My bus route the 17a is affected by the strike, meaning I have two get two buses home - doubling my journey. I dont mind though, I fully support the striking bus workers.

by Eggball Tue Nov 13, 2007 17:28

To Curious - everyone turned up on Monday morning to work as normal. We only walked out when one of our junior colleagues was suspended. Had that not happened, the garage would still be working, and if the suspension is lifted and the disputed rosters put to one side for now, the buses can be back on the street within hours. FYI, the working week in Dublin Bus starts on Sunday, not Monday, however junior drivers do not work Sunday, so the company deliberately held back on starting these routes until Monday morning in order to try to press a junior into doing the work. When she stood her ground, the result was inevitable.

To Dave - I have worked in both public and private sectors. Despite the neo-liberal claptrap that has become ambient in our society, I have found no discernible superiority in the organisational abilities or business acumen of the private sector. Far from the public sector being the one that's cosseted from reality, as received wisdom dictates, the truth is quite the reverse. Public companies like Dublin Bus cannot simply declare bankruptcy and walk away from their debts when it suits the stripe of the owner, as regularly happens in the private sector. Nor can they hide behind the cloak of corporate personality or limited liability. In short, there is quite literally, one law for the private sector which protects them up to the eyeballs, and another for us.

Regarding striking over the length of the working day, if you feel as you claim over this issue, then in order to be honourable and consistent, I suggest that tomorrow morning you march into your bosses office and say, "Boss, I don't think you're loading enough work on me for the amount of money your paying. I want you to increase my work by an hour a day and not to pay me any extra." To that and I might be impressed. Otherwise, I don't want to hear it.

by John Tue Nov 13, 2007 19:15

Yet again at this time of the year we have the most secure workers with the best pay and conditions in the country discommoding the rest of us for yet another wad of cash which doubtless will set them on their way until next year. The public service pay bill is totally out of whack with the quality of service provided and at this stage in the game they comes across as striking just because they can. It's any excuse at this stage - changing lightbulbs, taking your lunch in town etc. At this stage we've got train drivers paid more than your average doctor in most of Europe. It's well past time to get a grip on this blatant thievery from the pockets of people making much less than your average public servant. Personally, I'd suggest leaving the existing practices in place and offering a contract to a private company to operate the routes that Dublin Bus drivers take issue with.

by John Tue Nov 13, 2007 19:19

And I'll just add to that - everyone else has had to make changes in their work practices over the last number of years. The public service can't go on pretending it's 1982 and refuse even the slightest alteration without a payoff. We've had this all over the country with health staff refusing to go in to brand new buldings , train drivers refusing to drive new trains (etc, etc, etc). It's beyond a pisstake at this stage and for once most of the public seem to realise it.

by Eggball Tue Nov 13, 2007 22:06

John - lots of luck getting a private operator to take over; there are already a clatter of licences handed out to the private sector in Dublin. If you don't see many of their buses, it's because they've simply been sitting on the licences. They don't run services where they don't see a quick profit. That's how private business works. As for me, my mortgage is paid and I am no longer a wage slave. I can do what I like, and frankly don't need the abuse I get from people like you. If you think the private sector is so wonderful, take a trip back to Pinochet's Chile, the most market oriented country in history whose economy collapsed when the public sector was minimised to the point of abolition, where trade unions were abolished, where unemployment quadrupled and where Pinochet ended up having to nationalise more of the economy to stabilize it than Allende, the man he murdered, ever dreamed of doing.

Of course, we're a long way from that just yet, but keep going the way you are and you may end up getting what you wish for.

by Bus boy - NBRU Tue Nov 13, 2007 22:24

Hi dave, not sure if you fell off your bike recently, but what strike was that two years age?? the one in your imagination? Try, and I know its hard for you, to put the odd fact into your PD rants.

by John Tue Nov 13, 2007 22:33

Oh come off it. This is so typical of the more off the wall attitude among some elements of the public sector. Asking for a modicum of flexibility is hardly comparable to living under a brutal and repressive dictatorship and the fact taht you would even make the comparison speaks volumes about your mindset on these matters. You're being asked to make a minor alteration here - it's a fact of life that work practices need to change from time to time and most people are well used to it.

For the record, it's actually people like yourselves by making the state sector so totally inflexible and outrageously costly that will drive us towards a totally free market scenario in end. It's treating the publix and the next generation of workers with contempt and I really have lost patience with, as I've said, the best paid and most secure workers in the state throwing a hissy fit every time management look askance at them. Cop on.

by Eggball Wed Nov 14, 2007 09:15

John, I don't know where you're getting your information, but flexibility is not a problem here. A year ago the company called in the union reps and informed them that these routes were going ahead and straight out asked how much money we wanted to work them. We told them to stick it because it wasn't about money, it was about working time. In order to be flexible, we offered them a skite of compromises. We offered to break in the city and asked only that we be allowed to finish where we start so as to avoid the extra hour on our working day. When that wasn't acceptable, we offered to redeploy staff to city centre garages to split the bases from which we worked in order to avoid the extra hour a day. When that wasn't acceptable we even drew up alternative schedules conceding 90% of what we were being asked to do, and that wasn't acceptable either. I don't know about you, but where I come from, a 90% compromise is pretty generous.

What's actually happening here is a turf war, but it's not between the unions and management, but between a dozen or so people at Dublin Bus HQ and everybody else, including, I suspect, the management of the individual depots. Dublin Bus has always been run from the depots, not O'Connell street. Management staff there have, by tradition, always been the kind of bright young things who spend their careers ritualistically progressing from one promotion and pay rise to the next and never really contributing anything of any substance to the day to day running of either the company or the city. That's fine, and generally they're let get on with it. The problem is that every five or six years they take a brain storm and actually try running the company. When that happens, chaos ensues. In this instance, somebody in O'Connell street looked at the union's proposed schedules, realized that they would actually work and then started worrying that if they were accepted, Minister Dempsey might scratch his head and wonder what the hell he was paying head office staff for. It's the kind of thing that happens in every business, public or private, and when it does, somebody always gets caught in the middle. The only question is, how do you react if you're the one who gets caught. In your case, John, obviously you rationalize it, tell yourself a load of old waffle about 'flexibility' and the so-called 'cosseted' public sector, and then take it lying down, but not everybody reacts that way, so I'll put the same question to you which Dave above as so far failed to answer: What do you do when the boss demands an extra hour a day from you?

by John Wed Nov 14, 2007 09:29

>Dave above as so far failed to answer: What do you do when the boss demands an extra hour a day from you?

As I understand it, they are not asking an extra hours work but are suggesting that the shift should finish certain times nearer where the drivers route finishes as opposed to driving back to the garage on paid time.

This used to be the case with Eircom back in the 1980s when engineers had to go back to the local office after each job was finished (and back for lunch) as opposed to just going from job to job.

The question doesn't apply to me as I do work around town but have a list of calls to make during the day - I can't return to base when every call is completed before beginning the next one and it hardly makes sense to go all the way back to the office for lunch when my next job is five minutes away from where my last one was.

So, in actual fact, as I understand it, you are only being asked to do what everyone else has been doing for years anyway.

by Dave Wed Nov 14, 2007 09:55

"Regarding striking over the length of the working day, if you feel as you claim over this issue, then in order to be honourable and consistent, I suggest that tomorrow morning you march into your bosses office and say, "Boss, I don't think you're loading enough work on me for the amount of money your paying. I want you to increase my work by an hour a day and not to pay me any extra." To that and I might be impressed. Otherwise, I don't want to hear it. "

Actually, I'm in work half an hour early and regularly work on beyond the end of the working day. I don't claim for overtime because I don't think I need to. When tendering for a job, I'm part of the process that involves putting together the cost of a job which includes detailing the number of days each member of the team needs to work on it. As I have a role in that, if I'm gpoing beyond that, I work on without claiming for the overtime.

by D_D Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:53

The coverage of the strike by RTE has been disgracefully biased. The 'Prime Time' report last night was a smarmy neo-liberal rant for privatisation.

'Morning Ireland' this morning was disgraceful. Strike leader Owen McCormick was questioned closely about his political affiliation. Whenever are employers or the employers' side questioned about their political affiliations? Whenever are trade union officials questioned about their political affiliations (Labour Party mostly)? Whenever are the Industrial Correspondents and the media pundits questioned about their political affiliations?

Well done Owen. You are playing a blinder and your members know that. Don't let them grind you down. I know you won't.

Question: why are the taxpayers paying a -non-political?!!- Competition Authority to come on RTE and the Irish Times to make ideological arguments for privatisation of bus transport in Dublin? Surely their role is simply to enforce already-existing legislation. (Oh, yeah!) The Competition Authority has already succeeded in taking away the right to trade union representation and negotiation from free lance radio actors for the past four years.

by OT Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:09

"Actually, I'm in work half an hour early and regularly work on beyond the end of the working day. I don't claim for overtime because I don't think I need to. "

Well, that's your own business. The rest of us value our time.

Bus drivers are not management. It's usual practice in many businesses that managers, who set the amount of work for a work period, do not get paid overtime if they miscalculated and have to work late. However, if they are ASKING someone else to give up more time... pay more money.

by Commuter Wed Nov 14, 2007 13:06

First off, eggball your post under the title flexibility is the best exposition of the situation I've seen so far.

Speaking as a commuter and someone who has relied on public transport for most of my 40 odd years on the planet I am in complete agreement with the drivers. As someone who actually uses the buses I have noticed over the past three or four years the gradual deterioration of the service in certain areas due to transferring bus routes to different garages. Run times have also increased with the result that at many times during the day buses are running increasingly late. I don't believe that the drivers take this action lightly, as after all they are the public face of the company who are in contact with people every day and will undoubtedly get as much grief as support over this when they do go back to work. How many managers on the other hand actually use the bus service they are supposed to be running? If they did they would realise that for many people they are in a constant state of inconvenience when routes are gutted, as for example was the 40C in Finglas.

As to the point that the bus workers are better off than others who have to work unpaid overtime? Well who's fault is that. If you are either too passive or too idiotic to organise or fight for better working conditions or if you have such self contempt that you place no value on your own free time then I really have no sympathy for you. There are many people who would love to have more say and control over the hours they work, and it is only through the actions of organised groups of workers that they might gain the confidence to do something about it.

by Dave Wed Nov 14, 2007 13:09

"Bus drivers are not management. However, if they are ASKING someone else to give up more time... pay more money."

You're missing the point. The management didn't set the work period, the EU did. The whole issue at the time (which I meant to say they threatened to strike on as opposed to striking on) was that their working hours in a week were restricted to 48 hours so they couldn't do as much overtime. So they weren't being asked to work more...they were whingeing because they couldn't work more than they were rostered to.

That's the rub.

by Red out of the Bed Wed Nov 14, 2007 13:20

..the 'Hidden History' programme about William Martin Murphy last night on RTE was very timely.

The similarities at that time ( pre 1913 and beyond etc) won't have gone unnoticed by the bus workers, Aer Lingus staff or lots of workers for that matter.

by Eggball Wed Nov 14, 2007 14:02

'I can't return to base when every call is completed before beginning the next one and it hardly makes sense to go all the way back to the office for lunch when my next job is five minutes away from where my last one was.

So, in actual fact, as I understand it, you are only being asked to do what everyone else has been doing for years anyway.' From John

John, nobody's asking to return to base after every job. In fact, nobody's asking to return to base at all. The problem can be solved by simple scheduling. All that is required is that those drivers who start in town, finish in town, and that those who start in the depot, finish in the depot. That's it. Problem solved, and the unions have already presented schedules that do that. These buses could have been on the street months ago, but HQ staff vetoed the union proposals because they were union proposals. Privately, the scheduling officers in Dublin Bus (ie, the functionaries who actually draw up the timetables) have admitted the schedules proposed by the company are, in any event, unworkable. They require, for example, a driver starting in town to leave Harristown and travel to the city centre in 45 minutes on the number 27B (the bus which serves the garage), the official running time of which is actually one hour. This, of course, leaves the driver with two choices: either he can come in early and get an earlier 27B (for which trouble, of course, he will receive no pay, since he wasn't asked to do that) or he can leave the garage at the official time and be late picking up in town. Since he will be picking up on a cross city route, this means that the driver he is relieving will have been sitting in the city centre with a bus full of irate passengers waiting to continue their journey for at least fifteen minutes, and probably longer. In addition, since it will take at least an hour to get back to the garage after shift, then every shift will finish late and every driver will be claiming overtime, which will make a massive payroll bill anyway.

It's idiotic, but it's being forced through because a group of David Brent types in O'Connell Street figure it's necessary to justify their existence.

As for you, Dave, I don't know if you've noticed this, but you're management. You operate by different criteria for a reason: you're trying to shinny up the greasy pole, and good luck to you. I've got no problem with that, and I hope you do well, really I do. But not everybody is like that, and not all of us are willing to burn the hours of our already short lives in the service of the company, whichever company that is. Tell your staff that you require an hour a day extra from them and see how they react.

by footsore Wed Nov 14, 2007 14:09

I spend three hours each working day commuting from Co. Kildare to my workplace in the centre of Dublin and back.

My unreasonable employers have never offered to pay me wages for as much as one minute of this three hours - let alone 45 minutes of it. Can I become a member of the busworkers union, please?

by Dave Wed Nov 14, 2007 14:15

"As for you, Dave, I don't know if you've noticed this, but you're management. You operate by different criteria for a reason: you're trying to shinny up the greasy pole, and good luck to you. I've got no problem with that, and I hope you do well, really I do. But not everybody is like that, and not all of us are willing to burn the hours of our already short lives in the service of the company, whichever company that is. Tell your staff that you require an hour a day extra from them and see how they react."

I'm not management. I just have an input into job tenders.

Also, whilst I do agree in certain aspects of what you say, just because the route takes an hour between Harristown and the city centre, doesn't mean it takes an hour to drive directly.

The same as it doesn't take an hour and 20 minutes too drive between town and Dun Laoghaire (the 46A route) for example.

By the by, David Brent was actually quite good at his job. That's why he was offered the promotion at the end of the first series! ;-)

by Harristown Bus Driver Wed Nov 14, 2007 15:41 Harristown Garage, North County Dublin

Sell-out of Bus Workers on the way
I have a sickening feeling that Harristown Bus Drivers are going to be the victims of yet another sell-out by the Unions, especially SIPTU. You could see that in the response of Willie Noone, SIPTU as he entered the Labour Court (no friend of the workers) this morning. I'm sure others reading this agree. Aér Lingus, Aér Rianta, I could go on and on. You could almost hear the joy in his voice as he sensed a chance to sell-out the Bus Drivers. Well you'll find that we're no pushovers in Harristown.

by Eggball Wed Nov 14, 2007 17:22

First, New Car Driver. WE are members of the public, or at least we become so when somebody else - Aer Lingus, the ESB etc; go on strike. Think about it.

Dave, yes, it does take a full hour to get to town from Harristown by bus. If we could drive in there wouldn't be a problem, but parking (eg, in Jervis Street Centre) is €2.70 per hour. Do the maths.

Footsore, you want to join our union? No problem, my friend. The company are always looking for drivers. Are you prepared to do the job? If so, come ahead, but think about this. 10 years ago, there was a ferocious amount of overtime being worked by bus drivers in Dublin. This was due to the fact that we simply could not recruit enough people to staff the service. That problem has now been solved, but only by the influx of a large amount of foreign drivers. The reason for this is because increasingly the Irish (and I'm assuming you're Irish) simply won't do this job. In the private sector, the proportion of foreign nationals is even higher because the conditions there are so much worse. Oh sure, you want a great service delivered to your door, but you don't want to be bothered thinking about what it takes to get it to you.

Here's something else to think about. Some of you are harping on about letting those self same private operators in to do the work you think we don't want to do. Here's an interesting statistic: in the past two years, 110 licences to ply for trade have been granted to private operators in the Dublin area. That's about half the number of routes Dublin Bus operates. You might think, therefore, that the private sector operates about a third of the public transport in the Dublin area. Of course, they operate nothing of the kind because often they've pulled their services (overnight, in many cases) if [a - they fail to make a profit or [b - the profit they made wasn't good enough. Dublin Bus can't do that because most of you are on to your TDs if they attempt anything of the kind. There are not 110 private bus routes operating around Dublin, or anything like it. Indeed, many of those licences are gathering dust in desks somewhere because having secured them, the hackers are just sitting on them, much like the taxi drivers used to sit on their plates and sell them on later.

Forget the PD claptrap about the forces of the market, folks. If you think we're bad, just wait for what follows.

by footsore Wed Nov 14, 2007 19:30

Oh the poor dears!

The bus-drivers actually have to PAY for parking in the centre of town.

So does everyone else, eggball.

But everyone else doesn't have paid commuting and free-transport on Dublin Bus.

Open the bus-routes to competition. Do for the abused bus-users what Michael O'Leary did for the common man (and woman) in air-travel.

by interesting Wed Nov 14, 2007 21:02

When you say "'m not management. I just have an input into job tenders."

Do you have the ability to hire and fire?

by Shop Steward - ex Telecom Fusiliers Wed Nov 14, 2007 22:46

says John, "This used to be the case with Eircom back in the 1980s when engineers had to go back to the local office after each job was finished (and back for lunch) as opposed to just going from job to job."

Rubbish. I was there then - you obviously weren't. I don't know where these fucking myths come from. In the 80's engineers in the repair service started work from the AEH (area engineering headquarters) where they would contact the fault report centre to get the list of "jobs" for the morning. They would then go from job to job contacting the centre by phone (no mobiles back then!) to report on the status of each fault as it was dealt with and be assigned further faults. Very occasionally you might have go back to the stores to pick up replacement equipment but most common items were carried in the van. It was unheard of to go back to hq after each job and would have been pretty stupid too. Lunch would be wherever was convenient, often you'd pull in to a local telephone exchange or AEH, if one was close by, there are plenty of them around Dublin. Other times you'd stop off at local chipper or shop or just have the home made sambo in the van.

Long time gone from eircom now but best wishes to the bus workers and aer lingus workers. Stick in there guys and girls.

by Diogenes Thu Nov 15, 2007 08:57

First they came for the bus drivers. You didn't give a shit, you don't drive a bus. Then they came for the airline workers. You didn't give a shit, you don't fly a plane....... Wait 'til they come for you.

by Dave Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:01

"When you say "'m not management. I just have an input into job tenders."

Do you have the ability to hire and fire?"

No.

by Eggball Fri Nov 16, 2007 19:47

Open the bus-routes to competition. Do for the abused bus-users what Michael O'Leary did for the common man (and woman) in air-travel. By Footsore.

I've already told you, the routes ARE open to competition. The reason there is none is because the hackers are abandoning them when they don't make them rich overnight. As for doing what Michael O'Leary does, try and get it through your skull exactly what he DOES do. He flies where HE likes, and if you don't like it, then fuck you. If you are so utterly self oppressed that you can actually see this man as a role model, you are an extremely sad individual.