RSF will oppose Loyalist march

by pat c Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:51

I think any opposition to this Loyalist march should take the form of a peaceful demonstration. Its worth pointing out that Willie Frazer has fascist and paramilitary links. In the Six Counties, Scotland and England, members of C18 and the BNP have acted as stewards on Love Ulster parades. The PSNI also withdrew Frazers firearm permit because of his links with loyalist paramiliraries.

Most importantly people should realise that some of those who carried out the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings are being honoured on this parade, these include 2 relatives of Frazer who were in the UDR. Placards with their photos were carried last year.

Finally, I would like to point out that the Garda "Public Order" Unit started the violence on last years march. The "Public Order" Unit batoned a group of people who were throwing oranges at Gardai. This caused panic in the crowd, other Gardai moved barriers to let the crowd onto O'Connell Street. Some of the crowd then sat down on the road. The "Public Order" Unit then proceeded to baton those sitting down. This enraged the crowd on the other side of O'Connell Street who burst through the barricades.

The rest is history.

by i was there Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:07

The Twelfth, perhaps?

It'd be interesting to see what happens if they try to hold it again. You can bet that they'll have hundreds of Public Order Unit cops out this time, tooled up to the nines. The publicity it got last year means that there will be a lot more people in the city centre - to either get involved or gawkers.

A recipe for disaster IMHO. I'd be very surprised if the Gardai allowed it to happen.

by Brenny Thu Jun 21, 2007 21:20

It's quite strange, but young Willie Frazer seems to imply on his website for FAIR (the group behing the march) that Road Bowling, that king of sports popular in both Cork and Armagh and quite likely introduced by William of Orange's troops in the 1690s, has links to Republican violence.

( http://www.victims.org.uk/23-11-04a.html )

At first the article draws an allusion between road bowling in the bohereens of South Armagh and the use of cars to knock down members of the security forces and seems purely metaphorical, but one wonders in the last paragraphs when he indicates that the sport is an illegal act carried out by Republicans.

I hope it was simply a case of bad structuring when they wrote:
"The game of Road Bowls favoured by Republicans which involves the illegal blocking of roads in South Armagh seems to have gone to the heads of the IRA. We believe that this should not be allowed to happen, and that the hatred-fuelled attacks by Republicans must be stopped with force if necessary. If this is not allowed to happen, the marines should be brought back, if only for the peace of mind of the local populations. How can ordinary civilians ever accept this violent peace as a true Peace? "

I'd certainly like to think he doesn't see Road Bowling as the "hatred-fuelled attacks" that the marines may have to put an end to. I simply don't know anymore.

by Seaicilín F Fri Jun 22, 2007 00:15

The majority of people from the four provinces of Ireland do not want Willie Frazer and his gangs of loyalist paramilitary friends marching down O'Connell Street, parading and hero worshipping loyalists who murdered countless numbers of Catholics, and displaying proudly a framed photograph of the person who perpetrated the atrocity that was the Dublin/Monaghan bombings, and in doing so, displaying his true colours, that is, his callousness and total lack of empathy or compassion for those victims’ families.

Mr. Frazer should not be given a platform here to spread his fascist and racist views and an opportunity for him to disrespect and sneer at those who fought for Irish independence. If he would like to spread his hateful, racist and bigoted messages further, I would suggest that he pack his bags and head for America and join the like-minded KKK and stand with them in a very secluded forest burning crosses out of public view (that is if he’s not a member already).

No permission should be granted for this provocative loyalist march. Mr. Frazer has nothing positive to contribute and is using this march as a platform to whip up hatred, and as an attempt to publicly condemn and smear all Irish nationalists and republicans - and to incite extreme hatred as a result.

"Is deacair an drochrud a mharú" - sin fíor!

Dia ár sabháil!

by Paddy - none Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:57 none none

When i heard the news the last time they wanted to march, I say ' to hell with them, let them march, they are just a bunch of ejets'. We should ignore them. But they are not a bunch of ejets they are dangerous people.
Then the more the arguement continued I though to myself, fuck them, thats what has them the way they are. I'll protest against such a march
If they had marched the last time without anyone objecting, they would have come back again, and again, rubbing peoples noses in it untill they got the reaction they wanted in the first place, bet off the streets so they could play the victim.
The very nature of loyalism is dominance and control, their mantra being 'Croppies lie down'
Protestants have been living without any interferance from anyone in the 26 counties for years.
Loyalisim should not be alowed to take root down here in such a form.
If they have a right to walk in protest, we have a right to protest against such a march.

Hopefully people will come out in their thousands and sit down in the path of this so called rememberance march, it should not be tolerated.
its more like the wooden horse, it should not be excepted, no matter how nice and charming it appers at a glance.
PS,
Croppies will never lie down...........................................................................................................................

by Jack Black Mon Jun 25, 2007 13:40

I'm no fan of Orangemen. I live a few streets away from Belfast's Lower Ormeau Road where they've behaved disgracefully.

In July 1992, just months after loyalists shot dead five Catholics in a local bookies office, some Orange marchers shouted paramilitary slogans and made five-fingered gestures passing the premises.

Many Orange parades are just a family day out. But too often marching through Catholic areas means huge rings of steel imprisoning residents in their own homes.

Yet a parade through a beleaguered nationalist neighbourhood, like the Lower Ormeau or Garvaghy Road, is a million miles from Orangemen and IRA victims marching in O'Connell Street – a main commercial thoroughfare.

If they were parading to Ballymun or Ballyfermot, that would be different. But they're going to Leinster House, an entirely appropriate location for a political rally.

They'll be in Dublin, not as a swaggering majority, but as a minority. There's nothing triumphalist or threatening about the event. They're not about to retake the GPO and raise the Union Jack.

The Orange Order is sectarian to its core but the test of any democracy is the freedom it allows its staunchest opponents. No-one has ever resisted Orangemen marching along Belfast's main thoroughfare, Royal Avenue, every July. What makes O'Connell Street more special that it needs protecting from Orange feet?

Opposing this march is deeply partitionist. Until 1998, the Republic claimed jurisdiction over the North and, despite the abandonment of Articles 2 & 3, it's still asserted that Northerners, Catholic AND Protestant, are Irish. So if loyalists want to march in 'their' capital city, they should be most welcome.

The biggest inconvenience will be traffic disruption for one hour one Saturday afternoon – many Northerners put up with this two or three times a week in summer months. If Orangemen are good enough to march in the North, they're good enough for the South too.

If Southern protesters came North last July and blocked Royal Avenue I'd have more respect for them. But then staging a protest outside the GPO is a substantially safer venture for Saturday afternoon 'republicans' than facing tens of thousands of loyalists and police in Belfast city-centre.

Some opponents of this march aren't acting in solidarity with six-county nationalists at all. They just want all this "Northern nonsense" to stay firmly across the Border. Others, underneath their PC arguments, are simply bigots – they don't want an Orangeman about the place.

Republican Sinn Féin and the 32 County Sovereignty Movement are also championing the opposition. Their supporters are horrified the parade will pass the hallowed ground of Pearse and Connolly.

With the Tricolour of green, white and orange (not 'gold' as some ballads conveniently assert) flying over the GPO, it's entirely appropriate that 'the orange' pass beneath it.

The Tricolour, acknowledging the Orange tradition, was first unfurled in 1848 when the Order was even more right-wing and reactionary than it is now. And yet republicans then were inclusive.

Is opposing a few hundred Orangemen and widows in O'Connell Street really the most pressing concern for those who believe the republic of Pearse and Connolly has never been achieved?

The march is allegedly insensitive to the 1974 Dublin bombing victims. Yet Britain allowed republican demonstrations while the IRA bombed British cities. Sinn Féin speakers – including IRA Army Council members – have addressed countless rallies there, which was undoubtedly difficult for the families of civilians killed by the IRA.

If the British state, repressive as it was in so many ways to Irish people, still allowed republican rallies, the Irish state must be big enough to tolerate a loyalist one.

Yes, this march focuses on IRA victims but many republican rallies have concentrated solely (and very legitimately), on the victims of loyalist and state violence.

Willie Frazer's opinions might be anathema to many nationalists but the fact remains he lost 11 relatives and close friends to the IRA.

Republicanism embraces the unity of Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter. You can't pick and choose your Protestants. You might wish they were modern-day Wolfe Tones, but you have to deal with the Protestants you've got.

The Dublin march presents a threat to no-one. Opposing it is bigotry or partitionism dressed up as patriotism. It's certainly not republicanism.

I agree with the above, written by Suzanne Breen before last year's riot. Ther eis nothing progressive about trying to stop Frzer and co from marching and it will just be an excuse for RSF to try and build up a bit of cred with teenagers who wouldn't touch the Second Dail geratrics with a barge-pole otherwise.

by Republican Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:36

We always talk about the brits never learning but now RSF really need to cop on. Maybe the last march swelled their ranks with hoodied miscreants lacking any knowledge of Irish history or republicanism but in the bigger picture it only harm republicans and the south in the eyes of ordinary protestants and unionists who we must embrace in a new Ireland.

The orange order are a bigoted group but they have a right as do others to march down the main thoroughfare of their capital city, although I'd like to see then keep away from parnell st. and summerhill.

These people do not represent anyone and they will only gain from abuse. Remember what happened when civil rights marchers were not allowed to march.

But of cours RSF are only interested in feeling like republicans in their narrow idea of what that is but not actually being republican and recognising the right of free association regardless of who they are. This is not a residential area we are talking about.

by Gan Ainm Tue Jun 26, 2007 13:53

Whether Dubliners allow this march to go ahead or not is up to them, however with Willie Frazer taking a convoy of paramilitary flute bands with him lets not let pretend that what he has in mind is anything other than giving two fingers to every man woman and child within hearing distance of a blood and thunder kick the pope march which is the loudest thing Dublin will have heard since Nelsons pillar came down.. Talk of how appropriate it is that "the orange marches under the GPO" is rubbish. We shall see who has to scrape the Combat 18 / 'kill all taigs' stickers etc . off the lamposts afterwards.
"If i was in the UVF they wouldnt have called a ceasefire" ....Willie Frazer.

by pat c Tue Jun 26, 2007 14:22

"The orange order are a bigoted group but they have a right as do others to march down the main thoroughfare of their capital city, although I'd like to see then keep away from parnell st. and summerhill."

Its not an Orange Order march. The OO want nothing to do with it because they see Frazer as a loose cannon. The OO made it abundantly clear last year that the march was getting no support from them either overt or covert. They refused permission for OO Banners to be carried and marchers were also refused permission to wear their sashes or collarettes.

It will be a march of dissident loyalists who have links with C18 & the BNP.

by robby Wed Jun 27, 2007 18:14

The Dublin march presents a threat to no-one. Opposing it is bigotry or partitionism dressed up as patriotism. It's certainly not republicanism.

by Caobhin Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:37

The Dublin march presents a threat to no-one. Opposing it is bigotry or partitionism dressed up as patriotism. It's certainly not republicanism.

This bussed-in sectarian shit-stirring march might not represent a "threat" to anyone but it's odious hypocrisy is offensive and is designed to cause a reaction. If you were even handed you would realise the glaring contradiction of your half-baked soundbite, don't people you don't like have a right to protest anymore?

Anyway when was the last time this Frazier maggot led a march in the six counties, is it just Dublin he loves to march in?

by Jacqueline Fallon Sun Jul 01, 2007 01:33

I protested at this march last time and I will, indeed, be protesting vigorously again, and I sincerely hope all socialists and republicans in Ireland will join me in opposing this extreme right-wing march. Mr. Frazer and his loyalist paramilitary friends will be given an angry reception in Dublin and it will, indeed, be an absolute miracle if the march goes off peacefully - there is nothing peaceful about Mr. Frazer & his gangs of loyalist paramilitary friends. There is no doubt about it, he will bring trouble and outrage to the streets of Dublin again, as this time he will be accompanied by extra squads of loyalist paramilitaries.

Every republican, socialist and communist in Ireland should come out and protest vigorously against this extreme right-wing sectarian march, if we do not, he, and his loyalist paramilitary friends will think they are welcome to come here every year - and it has to be made crystal clear to him that his views are extremely unacceptable and are contemptible to all right thinking people on this island.

Hopefully, An Garda Síochána might develop a bit of sense this time and realise that they are making a huge mistake in permitting this sectarian march to go ahead. Then, again, maybe the Gardaí can identify with extreme right-wing bigots like Mr. Frazer and agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Frazer's views and are, therefore, willing to assist him in every way possible - even if it means bringing utter destruction to the city of Dublin?

by love munster Sun Jul 01, 2007 18:02

the only reason frazier is marching is the provoke a violent response. with that in mind any opposition needs to be measured accordingly. either people deliberatly stay away or any protest is organised with such disipline in such a way as there is no violence, just calling people on to the streets is dangerous. The gardai will be armed to the hilt, teenagers will be armed to the hilt. frazer will be well protected. The only out come will be some 16 year old will be hospitalized and have a sentence hand'd down. one lad from finglas just got five years for the last riot. if you are seriously offenend by this march which is your right. i suggest you drop the emotive language and come up with a stratagy that will allow you to get your point across with out frazier getting his!

by Seaicilín F Thu Jul 05, 2007 00:10

There's is nothing wrong with my language, just your interpretation of it, which is your problem, we can't all be dead to emotion like yourself.

I'm merely calling on everyone from the four provinces of Ireland, including Munster people, to protest at this right wing sectarian march which glorifies loyalist paramilitaries and acknowledges exclusively the unionist community's suffering - and ignores the grief caused by them to both nationalists and republicans. We would have had peace long ago on this island only for the unionists and their inability to grasp democracy, equality and the bleedin obvious (i.e. this is one island/one country - not two!).

I am also calling on the 'authorities' here to be sensible and to deny consent to this not so 'FAIR' organisation in light of the insensitivity of the 'FAIR' (a misnomer if ever there was one!) sectarian march.

by rooster Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:04

"right wing sectarian march which glorifies loyalist paramilitaries and acknowledges exclusively the unionist community's suffering - and ignores the grief caused by them to both nationalists and republicans"

-well, they are loyalists and so will obviously concentrate on their own suffering, you wouldn't expect a republican march to mention IRA atrocities or to voice any support for the NI security forces! And since when has being right wing been a crime?

"We would have had peace long ago on this island only for the unionists and their inability to grasp democracy, equality and the bleedin obvious (i.e. this is one island/one country - not two!)"

-we did have peace before republicans upset the apple cart with the Easter rising, the bleedin obvious? Look at a map mate, its bleedin obvious that there is a border drawn on this island, didn't you notice, it would not have been there had the southern counties not seperated themselves from the rest of the UK which they were part of. The border was your invention, end of.

by Karl Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:08

Myself and a good few others will be protesting against this loyalist parade - we will be doing so peacefully and hope that the riot cops don't make the same mistake they did last year when they started the trouble by attempting to forcefully remove the protestors .

Fair play to rsf for taking the lead on this important issue - the provos have really lost the plot in regards to issues concerning the brit presence.

by Seaicilín F Thu Jul 05, 2007 22:05

Rooster's quote: "The border was your invention, end of."

Absolute nonsense. The British imperialists invented partition and religious division in Ireland. There was none of this before their arrival and aggressive military occupation of the island in 1169. The British imperialists were responsible for enacting the Government of Ireland Act of 1920 and were the authors of the deceptive Anglo-Irish Treaty (which was signed under threat of further violence from Britain) in January 1921, which resulted in the artificial partition of Ireland and the setting-up by them of a self-government for the north and the south to accommodate the 'precious' Unionists. The fact that the Unionists could not even accept the ancient province of Ulster’s nine counties - because three of the Ulster counties contained too many Catholics - speaks volumes about the Unionist mentality.

With regard to your map of Ireland, I regret to inform you that yours has a serious flaw. I strongly recommend you make a complaint to the manufacturers immediately and claim a refund as, unfortunately, there’s an ugly physical border appearing on yours. I’m fortunate enough to have in my possession an accurate and beautiful map of Ireland with no ugly border line disfiguring Ireland.

I hope as many people as possible turn out to oppose Mr. Frazer’s ‘Love Ulster’ loyalist sectarian march and show their utter contempt for people who glorify and hold in great esteem those who carried out the Dublin/Monaghan bombings. We owe it to the victims of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings to turn out and show them that we care and that they are not forgotten by us, and to show also our total condemnation for those loyalists who parade pass their memorial monument and disrespect it by venerating the perpetrators of this appalling atrocity.

by rooster Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:50

Before 1921 there was no border, it was a necessary creation because of the wish of republicans to seperate from the UK and form their own state, the people of the six northeastern counties did not want to join that state and so opted out.

Therefore, it was the republican demand for independence that made the border a reality. As for your "accurate and beautiful map" that has no border drawn on it, try spending the euro in the six counties and see how far you get or even the Northern bank notes(I hear theres plenty of those floating around county Cork) in the twenty six counties.

And as for the Dublin/Monaghan bombings, when someone rejects one terrorist act without protesting against them all then they can't really be taken seriously now can they?

by Seaicilín F Sun Jul 08, 2007 18:06

Cogar, Rooster, the British invaded Ireland in 1169; the Irish people have continuously fought since then to take back what was rightfully theirs from the British, who outrageously and violently stole it from the Irish people.

At present, I believe the British are leaving this country very gradually, but leave they eventually will, and you will have to accept that the six counties of Ireland will be politically united with the other 26 counties, that is Ireland's only future for political strength and stability, and more importantly, for lasting peace, and everyone wants peace; and you and your Orange Order friends will just have to adapt and accept this politically united Ireland. The 32 counties of Ireland belong to the Irish people of today, whether they are: Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist; or no religion at all - the last category being the one I believe the majority of people on this entire island fall into today.

In my opinion, anyone who supports or is a member of the Orange Order cannot be taken seriously by me, it would be akin to listening to the opinions of a Ku Klux Klan member or a member of a white supremacist group (who admire greatly the Orange Order). The Orange Order would like nothing more than to eliminate totally the Nationalist/Republican population in the six counties by whatever means, and you, "Rooster", fall snugly into this category, because you support this ludicrous organisation whose only contribution is to have countless silly walks - if they were raising money for charity they might be of some benefit, but no, their only contribution to this island is to cause disturbance and incite hatred in all decent people of whatever nationality.

On a final note, this island is physically united, despite your protestations to the contrary and your flawed map which shows an ugly physical border which is, in reality, not there at all, and just a figment of your imagination. I suggest you stop inventing physical borders where there is none - and put more effort into dismantling your mental border!

Go maithe Dia duit é, Rooster,

Slán anois!

by rooster Sun Jul 08, 2007 20:00

"I suggest you stop inventing physical borders where there is none"

and we will see about making the border more "physical" however, meet us in the centre ground in mutual respect and accept us for who we are and we will get along just fine in an agreed settlement.