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Wednesday April 18, 2007 11:43
by Christopher Isherwood
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Comments (19 of 19)
Jump To Comment: 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1No Chris, I am a secular socialist who wants equality for all -regardless of race, religion, gender, creed, sexual orientation.
I do not place the rights of any one over anyone else. I will not adopt a position of superiority because it would make me a hypocrite.
Islam has its faults, Catholicism has its fault, Buddhism has its faults on and on and on and where do we stop.
Where is tolerance in all this?
We must be tolerant and learn to integrate Chris, and to that end your militancy is an obstacle in that I would rather a hundred LGBTs living a marginalised life than one Dead human being, killed in the pursuit of Gay rights. I fear you would happily accept the reverse.
Attitudes can change. But it will take time.
You are determined to smash any criticism of Islam even if it means trampling LGBT rights. Thats why I think you are a homophobe. You asked if I was a supporter of the Iranian Resistance, its reasonable for me to ask if you are an Iranmian Government supporter.
Opposing the repression of LGBTs and factually reporting on the results of a survey is not Islamophobic.
Disrupting a thread about LGBT rights as you are doing is the sort of action you would expect from a homophobe.
BTW I also criticise Catholicism. Is that a foul deed as well? Does it make me a Cathlophobe?
Theres a need for Gay Extremism as long as reactionaries like you are around.
But there are is an order to how the widest and greatest liberty shall be afforded the greatest number of people. No-one really needs a survey to know that devout muslims or mormons or orthodox jews don't like gays. We don't really need a survey of London's LGBT community to know it doesn't have a high opinion of any World Religion's teaching on sexual health matters. - most people don't either. Hepatitis is not endemic in the "straight" community
- who are they by the way?
is there a "straight gene"?
Now you have a nice life too - I'm on your side. But I'm on the side of positive integration of London's muslim community and the effects that positive integration will have on globalisation and the emergence of democracy "the real stuff" with workers rights, gender equality, access to all the water - food and education & then almost at the bottom right next to animal welfare will go the LGBT bandwagon. We understand each other perfectly don't we? Get mr outrage whom I agreed with on Poland's homophobic laws to go to a mosque. He hasn't had the bollox to do it before - always soft targets I suspect.
Give us a giggle link & an illustration - & remember
safe sex saves lives.
And quite frankly I have said nothing that would even suggest it. You however come across as a militant gay extremist with somewhat misguided notions of superiority.
I am not derailing this thread, I explained in my last post quite clearly the relevance of debating the perceived prejudices of the West toward Islam. To which your hissy fit answer is a shrill "Go Away"
You are a bigot and an Islamophobe and you haven’t a clue of the wider ramifications and implications of this.
And another thing, where on earth did you get the impression that I support the Iranian Government?
`"OK chris (I'm not a homophobe) but you are an Islamophobic BIGOT."
What do you base that on?
"I just got a love letter from a homosexual & quite liked it too. But I don't like your lobby."
Thats hardly relevant.
"Molecular epidemiological studies show that hepatitis A virus is endemic among active homosexual men in Europe "
And? Hepatitis A is also endemic among straights. I reckon you are a homohobe.
". So I don't think I'm a bigot. But I think you are."
Why? Because I point out the level of bigotry among muslims? I dont believe you regarding your campaigning. Any anonymous person could claim that.
"So now you're facing 2 opponents.
1 you dismiss as a troll for asking you about Iran"
The thread has nothing to do with Iran.
"the other is going to throw medical data at you all afternoon till you say sorry for provoking muslims."
If you that then you wil be in breach of Indy guidelines and your comments may be hidden. I'm not provoking muslims. I am reporting on a survey.
"But since I am master of propaganda & keeping all our little prejudices of which liberty is the most important to champion - I'l give you a funny link too. The moment dafyd stopped being the only gay man in the village. "
You are obviously a sad, confused homophobe, its possibele that you are acting in this way because you have concerns about your own orientation. I pity you.
"NOW ADMIT YOU ARE AN ISLAMOPHOBIC BIGOT."
Supporting LGBT rights does not make me Islamophobic. Factually reporting on the results of a survey does not make me a bigot.
Have a nice life.
I just got a love letter from a homosexual & quite liked it too. But I don't like your lobby.
Molecular epidemiological studies show that hepatitis A virus is endemic among active homosexual men in Europe (p 356-365)
Kathrine Stene-Johansen, Grace Tjon, Eckart Schreier, Viviane Bremer, Sylvia Bruisten, Siew-Lin Ngui, Mike King, Rosa M. Pinto, Lluis Aragon�s, Anne Mazick, Sylvie Corbet, Lena Sundqvist, Hans Blystad, Helene Norder, Kjell Skaug
Published Online: 20 Feb 2007
DOI: 10.1002/jmv.20781
her's the pdf http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/accessdenied...START
you might like to ask your health clinic to read you the data which is member only and well just one of over 14 areas of viral infection "actively gay men" seem to excel at. It's not very healthy being an "actively gay man". That has nothing to do with homosexuality. I campaigned long and hard for the revision of a marriage law in a european state on the moral pretext of encouraging and facilitating lasting committed relationships amongst male homosexuals. So I don't think I'm a bigot. But I think you are.
So now you're facing 2 opponents.
1 you dismiss as a troll for asking you about Iran
the other is going to throw medical data at you all afternoon till you say sorry for provoking muslims. But since I am master of propaganda & keeping all our little prejudices of which liberty is the most important to champion - I'l give you a funny link too. The moment dafyd stopped being the only gay man in the village. NOW ADMIT YOU ARE AN ISLAMOPHOBIC BIGOT.
Dafyd the only gay man in the village - not popular with devout muslims....are we surprised?
Good stuff from Rowan. Now if only an Ayetollah would do the same for Islam or a Cardinal for Roman Catholicism..
Rowan Williams says anti-gays misread Bible
The spiritual leader of the world's 77 million Anglicans has said conservative Christians who cite the Bible to condemn homosexuality are misreading a key passage written by Saint Paul almost 2,000 years ago.
Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, addressing theology students in Toronto, said an oft-quoted passage in Paul's Epistle to the Romans meant to warn Christians not to be self-righteous when they see others fall into sin.
His comments were an unusually open rebuff to conservative bishops, many of them from Africa, who have been citing the Bible to demand that pro-gay Anglican majorities in the United States and Canada be reined in or forced out of the Communion. 'Many current ways of reading miss the actual direction of the passage,' Williams said on Monday, according to a text of his speech posted on the Anglican Church of Canada's Web site. 'Paul is making a primary point not about homosexuality but about the delusions of the supposedly law-abiding.' The worldwide Anglican Communion is near breaking point over homosexuality, with conservative clerics insisting the Bible forbids gay bishops or blessings for same-sex unions. Its U.S. branch, the Episcopal Church, named a gay bishop in 2003.
My answer to your question is: are you a homophobe?
You are derailing this story. It has nothing to do with Iran.
This story is about LGBT rights. Go and write a story in support of the Iranian Government if you so wish. But not here.
You are a troll. Go away.
It was an in-depth survey into the attitudes of Muslims which threw up statistics regarding LGBT's and sexual conduct outside of Marriage.
Any survey regarding Islam has to be taken into context which makes the western worlds contrived attitude to Islam relevant.
If you cant debate this topic and ALL its aspects thats fine but intemperate accusation is actually the default position of the troll.
You asked for solidarity with LGBTs within the Islamic World. I simply asked how do you propose to show this solidarity.
I asked whethter you where a supporter of Iranian resistance because you used the term Mullah.
I just like to know who I'm talking to.
For instance are you an Islamophobe?
hello. In the current issue of the Journal of Virology as well as reading about herpes simplex D (The cold-sore) we may also read about the exceptionally high infection rate amongst actively gay (not just homosexual) men. It's one of the first things junior doctors doing their STD training are amazed at. How much sex gay men manage to fit into their lives and the consequences for both public health and social integration of minority communities. Real minority communities. not pretend ones. I think of the popular "little britian" series written by a gay couple which thus can't really be seen as being Hetrosexist & it's horribly accurate portrayal of Evan "the only gay man in the Welsh village" as he trundles off to mikonos.
Like it or not, as a lobby the LGBT bunch, especially the LGBT bunch of the UK do not represent a community. On one hand you claim 10% minimum of all the population are homosexual and that every homosexual ought pursue a "gay lifestyle" or not even bother to stop and think does one necessarily mean the other. The scientific and medical facts are quite clear - shagging lots and lots of people is not good for you. HPV more commonly known as "warts" is also treated upon in the current journal of virology. It's linked to cancer. A condom doesn't stop it - and the virus is found in the throats of 80% of sufferers of throat cancer. Now I've shagged muslims. I've hung out with homosexual, straight, bi and trans muslims who oddly enough didn't like the "gay lobby". Especially that "gay lobby" which promotes a homosexist agenda which has completely undermined the proper rehabilitation of bisexuality and bisexual expression of both physical and emotional nature in wider society. The bigots are not just one side. are they?
Like it or not the activities of your lobby have caused the development of genetic screening "in search of the gene you thought you all had" and that will sooner than would have been later will lead to the loss of rights for all of us. I hope it was worth it.
The story is about a survey in London regarding LGBT Rights. It has nothing to do with any wars. You are trying to derail the story.
Your question regarding the Iranian Resistance is as irrelevant as if I asked you if you were a supporter of the Iranian Government. There are plenty of threads regarding Iran. Make your comments there.
By raising them here you are trolling.
But how do you intend to show this solidarity? Do you condone a war against Islam in the support of LGB's?
The Catholic Church does not have a powerful industrial/military complex whipping up anti catholic hysteria among the western world in a semi-veiled attempt to cheapen the catholic way of life and the lives of those catholics in order to wage war and turn them into good little consumers and guarantee Anerican hegemony.
Also your comparisons to the Catholic church can be seen a bit like an Irishman slagging off an Irish institution or being critical of the an Irish politican. See what happens when an English man does it?
Islam is being presented as a wholly alien and evil religion for the purpose of making it an eternal enemy in an endless war.
If we in the west do not try and understand Islam and react like the zealots within the Mullahs then we are no better.
By the way you never answered me. Are you a part of or supporter of Iranian resistance?
"Chris are you a member or supporter of Iranian Resistance by any chance. Your use of the term Mullah is a little grating in that your are smearing a billion individuals with the actions of what really are a zealot minority."
Why is the use of the word Mullah grating?
I'm not smearing anyone. I am reporting on the findings of a Gallup survey. How is that smearing a billion people? If you have evidence that the poll is faulty then please share that evidence here. Unfortunately it looks as if its more than a zealot minority who hold anti LGBT views.
There are millions of Muslim LGBTs, they deserve support against the bigots in their communities.
When a Catholic Bishop or the Pope comes out with anti LGBT statements there is never any shortage of people to shout him down. Rightly so.
Why not stand up for LGBT rights against the Islamic bigots?
Chris are you a member or supporter of Iranian Resistance by any chance. Your use of the term Mullah is a little grating in that your are smearing a billion individuals with the actions of what really are a zealot minority.
"Times paper is a right wing rag. so there poll shouldn't be taken seriously."
The poll is carried out by Gallup a reputable polling company. If you have reason to doubt the methodology of how the poll was carried out or the veracity of its findings then please point to your evidence.
"are we really interested into what narrow minded people think? thankfully they are in the minority or is the this poll done to have a bashing session at people coming from Arab countries.
who may or may not practice Islam."
If we dont know how narrow minded people think then how can we try and change their opinions or combat prejudice? Not all Muslims come from Arab countries. Educate yourself. Exposing bigotry is not indiscriminate bashing.
"I can think of many other political issues which we could be looking at. English political establishment
islam-aphobia. the role of the Blair cabinet arse licking politicians in Washington, the war on terrorism"
And all of these issues are covered in articles on Indymedia and rightly so. Lesbian/Gay rights also deserve to be covered. Anyone who wants to discriminate against LGBT rights should be confronted. We fought the Catholic church, lets not be afraid to fight Islamic Homophobia.
Times paper is a right wing rag. so there poll shouldn't be taken seriously.
let us not fool ourselves of course there are people from Arab countries who are Lesbian, Gay
are we really interested into what narrow minded people think? thankfully they are in the minority
or is the this poll done to have a bashing session at people coming from Arab countries.
who may or may not practice Islam.
I can think of many other political issues which we could be looking at. English political establishment
islam-aphobia. the role of the Blair cabinet arse licking politicians in Washington, the war on terrorism.
Spin all you want but you are just apologists for the reactionary nature of Islam. Why did we bother fighting the Roman Catholic Mullahs? So that we can all kneel before Islam?
It seems that for some "liberals" and "socialists" that if Islam says homosexuality is wrong then they cant be criticised. Different if the RCC says it though.
Enough of this hypocrisy, I say no to medieval mindsets be they Ctholic or Islamic.
Shagging outside of marriage is good for you!
Religion rots your mind!
that sounds different doesn't it? see? no mention of gay or bi or straight breeders.
Just proper evaluation of the data. Were the devout muslims who overwhelmingly support sex, every day as much as you can get within marriage as defined by British Law have any opinion on tit enlargement?
I want to know the difference between "muslims are overwhelmingly opposed to homosexuality" and "muslims overwhelmingly oppose homosexuals". Maybe it's just sloppy badly written English. But the two phrases mean completely different things. It might also be worth considering that the "general population" [who from the data slant above appear to neither oppose homosexuality, homosexuals or even have a problem with their self-appointed lobbyists] doesn't exist.
Like who are these general populators? Still the news that people who follow a religion which proscribes homosexual acts yet in most of the countries it is dominant evolved such important elements of western homosexual, bisexual or "gay" culture as the sauna and gym - must raise questions. Are there lessons to be learnt? Should the lobby tackle outing famous muslims? Perhaps draw up a new set of guidelines for a muslim boys and girls to recognise their sexuality and make that choice. "general population" or "lgbt" or "muslim". It's all about minorities isn't it? I'm so glad I'm a left-handed meusli eater.