Women and Islam Understanding and Reporting

by Pushkin Thu Mar 08, 2007 13:48

The Forumwill be held from 10:30 a.m. to 1 p.m. March 29 at the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library in Boston. The Elizabeth Neuffer Forum is open to the public. Space is limited and reservations are required. Lunch will be served. Please RSVP to neuffer@iwmf.org or (202) 496-1992.

Panelists include:

Geneive Abdo, Gallup Organization

Huda Ahmed, reporter, Iraq; 2006-07 Elizabeth Neuffer IWMF Fellow

Irfana Anwer, KARAMAH (Muslim Women Lawyers for Human Rights)

Kishwer Falkner, Baroness of Margravine

Lily Zakiyah Munir, Centre for Pesantren and Democracy Studies

by Ascent Thu Mar 29, 2007 22:43

It's about time there was a meeting of Islamic women to show how Islam and it alleged mistreatment of women has been used as a tool of Zionists and Imperialists to justify horrific murder and torture of Muslims.

I hope people can see through the media distortion of Islam. Now that the myth of the "72 virgins for suicide bombers" has been dispelled, it is now time to focus on the allegations by Imperialists and Zionists that women are mistreated in Islam. And what do those people care for Muslim women anyway. Look how the Israelis treat Muslim women? Or the Americans?

For years the media has turned the truth on its head and the weak minded have believed it. Let the world see the strong free Muslim women.

by Pushkin Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:26

"It's about time there was a meeting of Islamic women to show how Islam and it alleged mistreatment of women has been used as a tool of Zionists and Imperialists to justify horrific murder and torture of Muslims."

Women are treated like animals in Fundamentalist Islamic states. You can oppose that and also oppose US Imperialism

"For years the media has turned the truth on its head and the weak minded have believed it. Let the world see the strong free Muslim women."

The weak minded are those who cheer on Islam regardless of its oppression of womem. Women are stoned to death hung and beheaded for adultery in Islamic states. Countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia boast about this. Pretending it doesn't happen actually helps the Neo-Cons because they will point to the anti Woman propaganda put out by the likes of you and claim that all anti war activists support Medieaval Muslims.

Down With Imperialism!

Down With Islamic Fundamentalism!

Support Womens Rights!

For A Secular Socialist Iran!

by Mars Sat Mar 31, 2007 09:19

Pushkin you don't have to go to Islamic countries to find women being treated like animals. Check out the nearest ghetto in down town Boston, London or even Dublin. There you will find both genders subject to the most abject poverty and degradation. Here in Mother Ireland, people, womb or no womb, who have little money are being allowed to die because they cannot get access to health care. And you sit around calling Muslims names. Are you being motivated by racism ?
If you want to fight injustice there is plenty in your own parish to keep you occupied for a few decades. And if the wonderfull electorate of Ireland demonstrates their love of money and their contempt for justice by re-electing the present government in May, not a single Irish person could criticise another country on any grounds. People in glass houses etc, etc.

by venus Sat Mar 31, 2007 13:45

actually pushkin is very involved in women's rights in ireland.
and the highlighting of inequity.
nothing wrong with a secularist.

and... thinking global acting local may be a big cliche but it applies to
some people who are more than armchair critics!

by Mars Sat Mar 31, 2007 17:10

The fact remains Venus that there are buckets of local injustices of the same calibre as those that Pushkin complains of in Islamic countries. His failure to recognise this and to seek to change things near to home leaves him wide open to the accussation of being selective in his condemnations of these things. I firmly believe that if we cannot lead by example we have no right to preach.

by Pushkin Sat Mar 31, 2007 17:15

But I am involved in fighting many of the injustices here at home. I also support the struggles of my comrades abroad. Its known as Internationalism. Its one of the basic principles of Socialism.

by Mars Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:45

It would not be the first time a local politician sought to practise elsewhere what he/she preaches while failing to tackle similiar injustices nearer to home. Fighting battles in far off places from the comfort of an armchair is a safe pass time.

"Women are treated like animals in Fundamentalist Islamic states"

Whether that bald statement is true or not, there are many women and men treated like animals in your own backyard. For example, Joe Duffy has been highlighting recently the fact that very ill people here in Holy Ireland are being put on endless waiting lists while those less ill, but with money receive immediate top class treatment. Those with little money here are being treated like animals in any sense of the meaning of that term. If there is a differecne between here and the Islamic states that you refer to, it is only that here, people of either gender are treated like animals. The Neo-con fundementalism that is being grown here under our very noses is a far greater threat to freedom than Islamic fundementalism. It was this neo-con mindset that created the ultimate injustice, slavery. The pursuit of money/wealth justifies any action or deed.
Pushkin ends a post with a war cry:
"Down With Imperialism!
Down With Islamic Fundamentalism!
Support Womens Rights!
For A Secular Socialist Iran!"
Well you better take the rose glint from your eye, because there are sophisticated and suave scarveless co-nationalists planning a bleaker world here in your own backyard and you need to refocus some attention to it before it's too late. It would be ironic indeed if in a few years time we had Mullahs preaching from their pulpits calling for justice and freedom for the enslaved white race.

by Mercury Sun Apr 01, 2007 19:44

We know what you mouth off about but what do you do? Tell us what you did today to fight injustice or to put the nasty capita;ists in their place. I bet you have lots to share.

by Mars Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:23

Mercury, ( a new pseudonym in town?) not surprisingly adopts the same old Stalinist tactic, ignore the arguement, attack the messenger.

Regarding what I do Mercury, unlike yourself I don't do propaganda and I can assure you if I was in the position that you are in, I would concentarte all my energies on tackling the injustuices that are all around the both of us. And I would never sell out.

by Mercury Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:32

The only Stalinist on this thread is you. You seem to wish to divert attention from Islamist oppression of women. Perhaps you are a Stalinised Nationalist who has no interest in what happens outside of your own borders. I take a different view. As I said its known as Internationalism.

I am involved in plenty of local campaigns including those for womens rights. Still dont know what you do.

You started posting here as Ascent, you are hardly in a position to complain.

by Marlboro Man Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:04

Nobody knows what you are involved in because nobody knows who you are. Same as pushkin and the same of Mars.

But you’re the one dodging questions, that is clear for all to see.
The fact remains that there are plenty of injustices right here that need tackling and those who are in position to change or tackle those injustices are sitting on their hands and consoling their inaction by standing on platforms and denouncing the actions of foreign governments. Under the guise of internationalism? And now those who are critical of that inaction are “Stalinised Nationalist.” Are you Joking? If you are a local politician, than you have a lot of explaining to do as the current mess this country is in.

Attending Pubic meetings denouncing Iran as Islamo-fascists (a nice CIA coined phrase) and cave dwelling misogynists achieves what exactly?
Do you think the Mullahs even hear your words, let alone give a crap?

All that is beside the point. Fact remains Mercury, no-one knows who you are. I don’t accept what you say at face value until you come out from under the pseudonym so we can make up our own minds about how credible an activist you are.

Until then don’t lecture anyone on how to think or discard their grievances as irrelevant, simply because they are not yours. Or attempt to bully them into silence by measuring the respective lengths of your activist’s appendage. I cannot abide that arrogant behaviour and like others I tend to be immediately put off by posters such as yourself.
No-one knows who you are, you can say what you like about yourself to lend weight or credibility to your opinion, but what you cant insist on, is that people believe you or afford you a parlance simply because you appraise yourself so glowingly.

That said, your closing statement on your last post, is as ridiculous as your opening statement.

by Mars Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:08

Not surprisingly, Mercury etc, you are wrong again. Ascent can speak for him/herself. Address the points he/she makes and stop the usual refuge of the Stalinist, character assassination.

I have no wish to divert attention from any oppression of men or women, on the contrary, I am reminding you that the oppression that is happening here is every bit as soul destroying for those on the receiving end. My point is that Ireland is full of armchair socialists who conveniently overlook the oppression that is occurring beside them and seek to get other nations to live by standards and codes that they do not insist for ourselves. Anytime you want I will take you by the hand and show the most outragious oppression that is happening within earshot of where you live. You don't need to travel to the other side of the world to find a cause. If as you say you are involved in local campaigns, you are obviuosly not having much success judging by the realtiy on the ground here. Perhaps you are spreading yourself too thin !!!

On the more important point, the oppression that occurrs in many countries is due to grinding poverty which in turn is the result of exploitation and regressive fiscal stategies employed by the wealth grabbers. The world's wealth is controlled by a handful of it's inhabitants ( None of which , by the way are Mullahs)and it is addressing this issue of wealth redistribution that will lead to true liberation and emancipation for all the world's citizens.

It is generally regarded that emancipation from servility is best achived by education. As I posted elsewhere, the BBC news broadcast a report on the attack by students on the British Legate in Iran and that report included an interview with a IRIANAN FEMALE university student. You do not oppress anyone by educating them. On the contrary, education is the true liberator.
.

by Mercury Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:19

But mars was the first person to use the word Stalinist on this thread. No one knows who anyone is unless they let the mask drop. But I have answered Mars, I believe it important to work on international issues as well as local ones. That means supporting the opposition in dictatorial countries like Iran.

I think Mars has a mission, that is to slander anyone who defends womens rights in Islamic societies. So what if one female student supports the Mullahs? What about all of the female students murdered and imprisoned by the Mullahs.

Mars has every right to go on about local issues and to attempt to convince activists that they should concentrate on local issues rather than international ones. So why doesnt s/he write a story about it?

by Mercury Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:23

"Islamo-fascists (a nice CIA coined phrase)"

Actually no. Its coined by Iranian Socialist Feminists in the Worker-communist Party of Iran. Surely you don't see everyone who opposes the Iranian Islamist Regime as CIA agents?

by Mars Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:58

You have not ansewered Mars and the fact that you think you have speaks volumes for your insular thinking and this is compounded by silliness. Just read the following little snippet from the last post:

"I think Mars has a mission, that is to slander anyone who defends womens rights in Islamic societies. So what if one female student supports the Mullahs?"

How could anyone with a rational objective view concoct such comment from what has gone before. The student was randomly selected to comment by a BBC reporter in the middle of a protest. Nowhere in the report was she asked or did she give any indication that she supports Mullahs or anyone else. What is clear is that she is a University student, is well nourished, articulate and confident. More importantly, it demonstartes that university in Iran is open to both male and female. As for a "MISSION" to slander defenders of womens rights, all I can say Pat C is, I hope that the oppressed anywhere are not solely depending on you to defend them because when push comes to shove, you will promptly disappear to defend the honour of women in an even remoter part of the universe. Hands on does not suit your style of politics, you might have to actually do something.

I repeat again, there are oppressed men and women in your own neighbourhood. Work to change their lives.

by Mercury Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:10

You are just repeating the same lies and distortions.

You ignore all of the evidence presented by Amnesty, HRW and the Iranian Opposition and base your opinions on an interview with one student.

What are you going to do when your Mullahs are overthrown?

by Marlboro Man Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:11

"Islamo-fascists (a nice CIA coined phrase)"

Actually no. Its coined by Iranian Socialist Feminists in the Worker-communist Party of Iran. Surely you don't see everyone who opposes the Iranian Islamist Regime as CIA agents?"

Really? Please Provide a link. Ironic that the WCPof I would coin a phrase that serves the chimps interests? And if you think the CIA would not infiltrate, use and manipulate such organisations then you seriously underestimate their capabilities and have just over-looked yrs of covert meddling by Uncle Sam in Iranian affairs.

I want Iran to be what ever Iran wants to be, not moulded by a western understanding of freedom. To that end I would never give support to UK/US justification for an attack on Iran regardless of the convoluted justifications they throw up most of which is peddled off the back of Islamo-phobia. Here is a massive amount of propagandised nonsense about Islam and its (so-called) misogynist nature. What annoys me is that such contempt is peculiarly reserved for Islamic countries that are not Pro-western. Saudi Arabia would have a far worse record on not just woman’s rights but human-rights on the whole, yet they are conveniently omitted from the Islamo-Fascist club.

It is these complexities and the vast array of propaganda shouldered by general indifference/ignorance of Islam in the west that makes me cautious in blanket condemnations.

I would also be very much of the opinion that we should get our own affairs in orders before we start condemning the affairs of others.

by Mercury Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:13

Mars you might be interested in this:

International Women's Day: Irene Khan and Shirin Ebadi call for end to discrimination against women in Iran

On the 98th annual celebration of International Women's Day, we call on the Government of Iran to abolish urgently laws that discriminate against women.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which recognizes human rights as being fundamental to the dignity and development of every human being, denounces discrimination on grounds of sex.

Yet in Iran, women face serious and widespread discrimination under the law, which excludes women from critical areas of political participation, treating women as if they were second-class citizens. The women of Iran are entitled to equal status with men under the Iranian legal system. The time is long overdue to make this a reality.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE130232007?op...G-2MD

by Mercury Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:31

"Really? Please Provide a link. Ironic that the WCPof I would coin a phrase that serves the chimps interests? "

Perhaps they used the phrase because so many of their comrades were tortured and murdered by the Mullahs. I'll give some links below.

"And if you think the CIA would not infiltrate, use and manipulate such organisations then you seriously underestimate their capabilities and have just over-looked yrs of covert meddling by Uncle Sam in Iranian affairs. "

If you have any evidence that the WPI are infiltrated then please produce it. I cannot prove a negative. All I can say is that the WPI oppose both US imperialism and the Mullahs.

"I want Iran to be what ever Iran wants to be, not moulded by a western understanding of freedom. "

So do I. Thats why I support the Iranian Resistance.

"To that end I would never give support to UK/US justification for an attack on Iran regardless of the convoluted justifications they throw up most of which is peddled off the back of Islamo-phobia."

I oppose any US?UK military intervention. AS do the WPI.

"Here is a massive amount of propagandised nonsense about Islam and its (so-called) misogynist nature. What annoys me is that such contempt is peculiarly reserved for Islamic countries that are not Pro-western. Saudi Arabia would have a far worse record on not just woman’s rights but human-rights on the whole, yet they are conveniently omitted from the Islamo-Fascist club."

Thats not correct among Anarchists, WSM, SF Saudi Arabia are equally condemned. The difference is though that you dont have any "socialists" supporting Saudi Arabia in the way the SWP support Iran. As for Misogyny, read the Amnesty, HRW and Iranian Opposition reports.

"I would also be very much of the opinion that we should get our own affairs in orders before we start condemning the affairs of others. "

I still say Internationalism is important.

Iran sites

http://www.wpiran.org/English/english.htm

http://www.kargaran.org/_main-eng.htm

http://www.thirdcamp.com/indexe.php

http://www.maryamnamazie.com/

http://www.azadizan.com/english/index.htm

http://www.irandwr.org/english/index.htm

Iraq sites

http://www.equalityiniraq.com/english.htm

http://www.socialismnow.org/index1.html

http://www.uuiraq.org/

http://houzanmahmoud.blogspot.com/

by Marlboro Man Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:33

You say “women face serious and widespread discrimination under the law,” which law is this, because you continue by saying “The women of Iran are entitled to equal status with men under the Iranian legal system.”

This is confusing unless by ‘law’ in the first case you mean ‘culture’ or ‘custom’.
Or can we take it more literally and say it is ‘Sharia Law’ you are referring to. I am not being flippant, I believe the need for clarity in this matter is of vital importance.

If it is Sharis law you are opposed to then we can debate the issues on this basis including its significance within anti-Islamic tendencies in the west and the west’s complete misunderstanding of Islam on the whole.

I will not go down the SWP route of the enemy of my enemy is my friend mantra.

by Mercury Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:50

I dont say it, the amnesty document does.

But I dont see Sharia as being true law. That is the position of the WPI, that there be no role for Sharia in iran.

If you wish to debate Sharia law then perhaps contact the Iranian resistance because I'm really not interested.

by Marlboro Man Mon Apr 02, 2007 13:03

You support Iranian resistance, say it is the conduit through which you espouse woman’s rights in Iran, yet are not interested in debating the very crux of that oppression in the eyes of those you support.

Is your dinner on the table?

by Mars Mon Apr 02, 2007 13:10

Mercury you say that ;

"Yet in Iran, women face serious and widespread discrimination under the law, which excludes women from critical areas of political participation, treating women as if they were second-class citizens."

Are you saying that they don't face the same here and in the west generally? Look at the facts.

You then follow on with what appears to be a contradictory statement;

"The women of Iran are entitled to equal status with men under the Iranian legal system." Well at least we've established that.

But the problem for Mercury, Pat C remains that there is discrimination and injustice here at home that affects men and women and we ought to be addressing those rather than attacking other countries and particularly based on the word or view of someone else. It smacks of covert racism .It comes across like, It's not too bad if we do it, but when those pesky Arabs do it, it's simply not cricket.
The other key issue here is ensuring that we do not lay the grounds for an invasion of Iran. Remebmer Bush is listening and he has a habit of invading places for the flimsiest of reasons. Can you not see him urging on the troops telling them we are going in to emancipate the women folk. Be careful out there.

by Mercury Mon Apr 02, 2007 13:34

Marl

I just think the Sharia should go. Just as I would oppose Irish Law if it was totally that of the Catholic Church. I have no interest in having a philosophical debatte about it

Mars

"But the problem for Mercury, Pat C remains that there is discrimination and injustice here at home that affects men and women and we ought to be addressing those rather than attacking other countries and particularly based on the word or view of someone else."

So you attempt to unmask me but maintain your anonymity. How couageous of you. I campaign against discrimination at home. I take word and view of the iranian Resistance, and gain info from Amnesty reports. you appear to take the word and view of the Iranian Government.

"It smacks of covert racism .It comes across like, It's not too bad if we do it, but when those pesky Arabs do it, it's simply not cricket."

So Amnesty International are racist? The Iranian Resistance are racist? You'll have to try harder than that.

"The other key issue here is ensuring that we do not lay the grounds for an invasion of Iran. Remebmer Bush is listening and he has a habit of invading places for the flimsiest of reasons. Can you not see him urging on the troops telling them we are going in to emancipate the women folk. Be careful out there."

Do you realy think Bush is listening to me? Gee!

As you know I oppose Imperialist intervention, the WPI oppose Imperialist intervention.

by Kerry Mon Apr 02, 2007 13:35

This seems to be turning into one of those "I'm right and you're wrong" style debates.
I have no interest in arguing who is right or wrong. People are entitled to point of view. Some of you seem to feel that it should become a contest. Therefore I will simply offer my opinion. If you do'nt like it then thats up to you.

Woman are mistreated in many countries in the Middle East, including Iran.
Some of the Islamist philosophy towards woman I would class as barbaric. If some of the reported articles in the past happened in Ireland, UK, Russia, Greenland, Iceland or Japan for example then it would have resulted in a jail sentence and if memory serves me right, it already has in the case of the so-called honour killings. Fair enough cultures are entitled to their beliefs, but I personally question any belief system that inspires people to stone others to death or hang them. Like it or not, woman ARE treated differently by SOME sects within Islam. This includes being told what to wear, when they can and can not go out, who thay may be in the company of. Punishment for breaking such rules may vary but the more extreme have resulted in (perfectly legal) physical punishment (for anyone intending to ask me to justify my claims simply Google it or look at some of the Women's Rights web-sites) . To me, this is a violation of simple human rights.

Here's a recent article I Googled this morning, which would suggest that woman's rights in Iran has a long way to go yet. Draw your own conclusions.

---------------------------------------

Iran cracks down on women's rights activists

By SCOTT PETERSON - Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

TEHRAN, IRAN -- Women's groups here have abandoned plans to demonstrate for equal rights on International Women's Day today, after more than 30 of their colleagues were jailed for protesting on Sunday.

But even after that decision, rumors spread by e-mail and cell phone text messages Wednesday night that an ad hoc protest might take place anyway, in front of parliament.

Fifteen of the women were released by late Wednesday, and the remainder told family members they were on a hunger strike inside Tehran's Evin Prison. The women were detained outside the Revolutionary Court, where cases had begun against five women who were charged with "acting against national security" after a June street rally calling for equal legal rights for women in Iran.

The cases and arrests are part of a mixed picture of social freedoms and human rights in Iran under President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. While the arrests Sunday have shaken activists, Iranians note at the same time little enforcement of Islamic dress codes long expected under conservative rule.

The mixed signals sent by the government highlight the measured - and targeted - way its conservative agenda manifests itself on the street. Activists charge that the pretext for the arrests is the government's suspicion that the women were receiving some of the $85 million earmarked by the U.S. to undermine the government by funding antiregime and pro-democracy groups. Activists say they haven't received any of those funds.

"I am so sorry, [but] I am not surprised [by the arrests]," says Elahe Koulaiei, a former member of parliament's national security committee. "I think [the arrests are] not acceptable in the context of our revolution and Islamic thought, [which require] a very kind relationship between rulers and the ruled."

But she adds,"These [authorities] are very pessimistic about the intentions of foreigners, and assign this kind of [protest] to external factors."

Wednesday, 620 leading members from several Iranian political parties and trade unions wrote an open letter to Iran's judiciary chief voicing "disappointment" over the arrests.

"Today is no longer a day for someone to be jailed for thinking and expressing their views," said parliament deputy Soheli Jelodarzadeh, speaking at a women's conference.

The human rights organization co-founded by Shirin Ebadi, the 2003 Nobel Peace Prize Laureate, earlier called the arrests "illegal."

In the event last June, for which the women are standing trial, police broke up the protest with truncheons and arrested 70 women, all of whom have since been released. Other charges against the five include making "propaganda against the Islamic system," and taking part in an "illegal" demonstration.

Demonstrators Sunday carried signs pointing to articles in the Iranian Constitution that guarantee the right to peaceful protest. Activists said the arrests were made to preempt another gathering they had planned for Thursday.

"They are afraid of the women's movement, because there are some links between them and journalists, nongovernmental organizations, and they cooperate with [foreign] NGOs," says Isa Saharkhiz, a former editor and reformist.

The cash set aside by the U.S. Congress to fund broadcasting into Iran and groups working against the Islamic Republic has complicated local efforts at political and social change - once the clarion call of Iran's reform movement.

The money "was the worst thing for all of the movements - women, students, and NGOs - they catch everyone, and say they are spies," says Mr. Saharkhiz. "We know that most of that money went to royalist groups and the Mujahideen-e Khalq," Iranian opposition that has several thousand militants under U.S. guard in Iraq.

Women's groups voted late Tuesday to cancel the event on International Women's Day. Worldwide, hundreds of political rallies, business conferences, theater performances, and other events are planned for Thursday to honor women's advancement and to promote gender equality.

"We had planned to protest before the majlis [parliament]," says Fatemeh Farhanghah, an activist who was at the Sunday event, but was not arrested. "Because the police have gone to a more violent approach, we decided not to."

Esfan, a young man skiing at Dizin, north of Tehran, where restrictions have always been more relaxed, says government pressure is often sporadic. "It comes and it goes. They push hard, and then people will complain, and they don't want people to complain, so they back off.... They [maintain control] in other ways."

In a statement protesting the arrests, the main reformist party Musharekat also issued a warning: "If such a peaceful protest is cracked down on by security forces and restrictions are being imposed, in the near future this issue can transform into an uncontrollable social crisis."

by Maryam Namazie Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:37

You cannot make us wear black!

The officials of Alamiyeh Tabatabaie University in Tehran have issued strict guidelines for women entering the university. They have banned colourful veils, make up and jewelry, and have placed guards at the front gate to report anyone transgressing the new regulations to the Islamic regime's authorities.

In protest, 8-900 women held a sit in outside the university. Plackards at the sit-in said: 'No to dress controls', 'no to reaction', and 'you cannot make us wear black'.