Crisis In The SSP

by socialist Wed Feb 21, 2007 19:14

Victory to collective leadership. Sheridan equals the cult of the personality, say no to stalinism yes to socialism. Viva the SSP!

by SP Member - Socialist Party/ CWI Wed Feb 21, 2007 20:01

Far from attempting to to be balanced the ISN article is really nothing more than a rehash of the position of the SSP. In particular, the ISN article completely mis-represents the position of the CWI.

by s.p.e.c.t.r.e. Wed Feb 21, 2007 21:00

It wasn't translated into English (from the original German)(Marx and Engels were German)(they wrote it)(Engles said Marx did most of the writing)(but Engels did most of the printing costs) for another 2 years. I don't know if it was ever translated into Scots english or Gaeilic. I suppose it must have been though because there has been quite a tradition of Marxism (as followers of Marx based -isms are called) in Scotland. It's not too late to translate it though. I'm no Irvine Welsh but I'd give it a try.

"G'wan! der's a wee ghostie puttin' thae shite up yon Europe the ghostie of communism. All tae powers of old Europe have gin into a kirk and pact to beat this ghostie. Papery, (wkwkspooo) yon drugZar, Metternich and Goozer, Rad Frenchies and germin Poliss grasses." They then went on to write about the Bourgoise (the posh weedgies) and then quite historically "call on all men, women and bairns to nae huv nae more of capitalism and go radge forthwith and firthwide". Sure the rest is history. I think you Scottish socialists can do without a translation of the communist manifesto just as you can do without a national anthem. But consider this - someday one your countrymen or women will stand up Holyrood hill and tell you to "tighten your belts" whilst there's a fortune in unclaimed performance royalties.

Keep your flag flying! solidarity! venceremos!

by ISNer Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:31

I suppose it's unlikely that a member of the SP/CWI would agree with the analysis in this article, but anyway - it doesn't claim to be "balanced" in the sense of not taking sides. We've already made it clear that our sympathies lie more with Sheridan's opponents in this row. But it's not a "re-hash" of what the SSP have been saying either - the article criticises the way they handled the business with McNeilage's tape.

As far as the CWI's position goes - it only gets a few lines in the whole article, the CWI didn't play a huge role in the drama. I'm guessing you object to the statement that the CWI have quietly shelved their previous criticisms of Sheridan. Well, that's the impression that you'd get from the way they advertised this meeting with the man himself in Belfast http://www.indymedia.ie/article/79327 for example : very hard to imagine the CWI saying such warm things about Sheridan before the trial.

by sp Thu Feb 22, 2007 15:05

The article is a re-hash of the pro-Murdoch SSP leadership line with a slight variation on the fake video tape. Your comment that
"As far as the CWI's position goes - it only gets a few lines in the whole article, the CWI didn't play a huge role in the drama" reflects the ISN's ignorance about the whole affair. The CWI in Scotland played a central role in this battle and in the decision to ditch the SSP and move on from its corpse. Unlike the ISN we will continue to play a central role in building the forces of socialism in Scotland and Ireland.

by ISNer eile Thu Feb 22, 2007 16:02

Go talk to some of the grown ups in the SP (sorry, should that be the pro-Daily Record/Hello Magazine SP?)
The ISN are very knowledgeable of what went and goes on in the SSP. Members of the ISN have worked on the ground in Scotland during elections, attended conferences and have ongoing contact with the SSP and the now defunct ISM. They also have a good knowledge of the work of the CWI platform before the split. In fact they worked on the ground in Ireland with CWI members of the SSP during the last general election here in Ireland.
As for your last sentence, well the arrogance can speak for itself but I doubt the SP will play the central role you think, if you can't deal with a different viewpoint and acknowledge that the article is not uncritical of the SSP.

by sp Thu Feb 22, 2007 17:51

What has become clear in the last few weeks with the recent articles the ISN has posted on Indymedia is its drift towards becoming an isolated sect. In the past you love bombed other lefts in an attempt to build some sort of an alliance, now you spend your time attacking other lefts, bit like an Irish version of the Weekly Worker!
You are displaying arrogance, not us, commenting on events from afar that despite what you say you have limited knowledge of and absolutely no involvement in and also criticising the sp and claiming we will not play a significant role in the left! After the election when we have at least 2 TDs and the ISN gets less votes than it did the last time, comeback and repeat your claim that we will not play a central role!

by Mark P - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Thu Feb 22, 2007 18:12

This discussion is getting a bit childish. The Socialist Party is probably the biggest hard left group in Ireland at the moment, but we are still very small in the greater scheme of things. Yes we are a lot bigger than the ISN, but that doesn't give us some automatic claim to being right. Nor do I think it's a very good idea to boast about the results of elections which have not yet happened! I hope that the Socialist Party manages to increase its Dail representation, but elections are a difficult field for small parties and there are no guarantees. I also hope, by the way, that the ISN increase their vote from the local elections - John O'Neil is an excellent candidate and like other SP members if I lived in his constituency I would vote for him.

As far as the ISN article goes, I think that the rather hostile assessment made of it earlier in the thread is unfortunately correct. It is essentially the rump SSP leadership's view of events, with a caveat inserted about the McNeilage tape. It's other "criticisms" of the SSP are in accordance with the views of the current leadership, that the SSP were too soft on Sheridan in earlier years and the like. Even on the issue of McNeilage tape, the writer refuses to take a clear position on whether or not he thinks McNeilage acted with no reference to his close associates in the SSP leadership. I've already stated my views on the SSP/Solidarity split and I don't intend on getting involved in another row about it (a number of British left internet forums are now near unusable because of the constant vicious bickering between the two groups).

by ISNer Thu Feb 22, 2007 19:35

It's quite true that the article agrees with the views of the rump SSP on most of the key issues. That's what the ISN thinks, too. There's only a finite number of positions you can take on these questions, and that's our view. If people have made their minds up to see things differently, that's their decision - presumably they aren't going to change their view after reading this article. Others might find it more agreeable.

We've no intention of making this into a defining issue for the Irish left - "are ye pro-Sheridan or anti-Sheridan"? There's more important things to be disagreeing about. But since we've had fairly close ties with the SSP since the ISN was founded, it would be a bit strange if we didn't have anything to say about the whole business. We issued a statement last year expressing our solidarity with the SSP, but didn't go into any details about the affair. Anyway, we've made it clear that we reckon the SSP is a more attractive option for the Scottish Left than Solidarity - now it's a question of seeing how the two organisations actually develop (and this means more than the upcoming Scottish assembly elections, of course).

I'm not sure how the ISN have been "isolating ourselves" by articles posted recently on Indymedia. Apart from this one, we've recently stuck up a link to an article about Leon Trotsky on our site - true, we were denounced as "neo-Stalinists" for our troubles, but it was obvious that the anonymous posters hadn't actually read the article, or at least digested it. It'd be nice to think that the radical left in Ireland could tolerate the existence of different points of view about Trotsky. If it can't, then we don't have much hope of co-operating over more important matters. Then there was an article about the anti-capitalist/anti-globalisation movement, which led to some interesting discussion. And further back, we posted a link to our policy paper about elections - again, some people (probably the same ones) weren't happy with a sentence that criticised the Bolshevik tradition, but the chances are they wouldn't be happy with anything the ISN says, unless we adopted the same views as them about everything.

So in other words, we've stuck up a few articles outlining our views about a few things. Not a hanging offence yet, I hope

by Dub Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:01

I think that ISN members should try to ignore some trolling by someone that calls themselves "sp". A major problem with Indymdia is the anonymous nature of some commentators wishing to stir up an argument. I would be closer to the SP in this debate. I think giving minutes to a Capitalist newspaper and backstabbing your own comrades is dispicable and unforgiveable. I think the ISN are wrong to to getting too close to that crowd in the SSP leadership. In saying that I think that the ISN and SP are among the most hard-working and honest activists on the left. I would happily vote ISN or SP in the upcoming election.

by John - ISN - Personal view Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:22

sp wrote

"You are displaying arrogance, not us, commenting on events from afar that despite what you say you have limited knowledge of and absolutely no involvement in and also criticising the sp and claiming we will not play a significant role in the left! After the election when we have at least 2 TDs and the ISN gets less votes than it did the last time, comeback and repeat your claim that we will not play a central role!"

This is a little over the top. I doubt it is the view of the SP and is possibly an attempt to start a row. I think some SPers are over sensitive about the SSP because they are trying to 'put a square peg in a round hole'. I recall speaking to many SP members and activists about the SSP a couple of years ago and their attitude to TS was hostile to say the least. Now they support TS and Solidarity.

The ISN put out an article on our analysis of the split in the SSP which we are entitled to do. The article outlined our understanding of the situation. It is based on our knowledge of the SSP and I believe that we know as much about the split as any SP member, in fact anyone with access to the internet would have enough information to formulate a position on the split as it was quiet public and both factions positions were easily accessed.

I believe the SP have a significant role to play on the left and in the building of a socialist alternative to capitalism as does everyone on the left. I look forward to Joe and Claire in the Dail and, hopefully, the SP comrade in Cork (sorry I forget his name) as I do for RBB, Joan Collins and all others from the 'radical left dysfunctional family'. Such successes will strengthen the left and make socialism a more credible alternative than it is today. It will also re-raise the question of building a party of the working class and inspire another series of discussions on how this project can be progressed. As for the ISN, I hope that we will increase our vote in DNW.

by RED JOKER Mon May 14, 2007 13:20

The debates are all over!
Check yesterdays Sunday Mail (Scotland) website
13.05.2007.
Scottish police have revealed they now have 'overwhelming
evidence' - including swingers club staff and patrons witnessess - to bring charges of perjury against Tommy Sheridan, and will soon proceed in presenting thier findings to the Procurator Fiscal.
Don't know if the Sheridans are aware yet - they're reportedly too busy sunning themselves in Miami. They better make the best of it - could be thier last holiday for a long time - if you exclude a 2 - 7 year stretch courtesy of Her Majestys Pleasure. Throw in a few defamation cases, bankruptcy, loss of MSP salary - its not been a good start to their summer break!

by Searcher Mon May 14, 2007 13:46

Here is a link to the article mentioned by the joker above. (Do include the url next time you want to bring something to peoples' attention) http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/feed/tm_method=full%26....html

by Observer Mon May 14, 2007 13:54

This is actually a very serious issue. For the sake of argument, let us assume that there is compelling evidence that Sheridan is a liar and a fantasist. It would mean that he had slandered socialists in the courts and split the SSP for reasons of personal vanity. It would also mean that this will be exposed, that he will become a laughing stock, and that he will probably spend some time in jail. It is very difficult, in such conditions, to see how he could retain any credibility as a socialist leader in the future - which, in turn, has ominous implications for Solidarity (not to mention the CWI and SWP). This by no means ensures that the SSP will recover - it may well be the case that both parties are irretrivably wrecked by all this.

I do have to say that the CWI defence of their role in this lacks credibility. It is a basic axiom of the socialist movement that you do not split a growing socialist force on personal or organisational grounds - you stay and fight, and only split if there is an intolerable political difference which will be widely understood in the working class. Nobody has pointed to any such political basis for the split in this case. The whole thing reeks of sectarianism. One effect is to mystify the working class, who see a split occuring on mostly personal grounds, are faced with two near identical socialist manifestos in an election - and conclude: a plague on both your houses.

If, as I personally think is now inevitable, Sheridan ends up in court again, with a this time less favourable verdict, those who went with him may well rue their decisions.

by Eamon Mon May 14, 2007 19:48

If Sheridan is charged with these offences, as the Sunday Mail is indicating, there is a good chance he'll go to jail. Whilst I wouldn't wish that on anyone in the Left, he only has himself to blame, and I've no sympathy for him at all, or his celebrity-seeking wife.

Of much greater importance is the damage all of this has done, and will continue to do, to the prospects for socialism in Scotland. The situation facing socialists in Scotland is really desperate right now. A thriving movement has been crucified and has suffered to an extraordinary degree from the still-unbelievable events of last summer. I believe that what has happened to the SSP is pretty much unprecedented in socialist history--I certainly cannot think of a parrallell--and I think it'll take several years to recover from this.

I don't see how there can be any common ground between Sheridan and his fan club, and the activists of the SSP, who, still, in the all-important Glasgow area dominate and far outnumber Solidarity, in terms of real and not paper numbers. Maybe if Sheridan does go to jail, and follows this with his departure from socialist activity, it'll allow for a slow coming together again Scottish socialism. The CWI would probably oppose this, but they are so lacking in credibility and are so puny in terms of influence, that this would hardly matter. Ditto with the SWP. Although larger than the CWI, they were not part of the SSP until 2001 and that made no difference to the success that the SSP enjoyed during that period. Their subsequent engagement in the SSP was largely half-hearted and it matters little whether they ever rejoin SSP activists in any way shape or form.

Ultimately, it is the considerable influence that Sheridan has over wider sections of the Scottish Left--who at this point are not ready to believe the dreadful truth about him and his actions over the past few years--which is the biggest obstacle facing the re-emergence of a genuine socialist movement in Scotland, not the opinions of the CWI or the SWP. For that reason, perhaps the best outcome from a socialist perspective of the Sheridan perjury allegations would be conviction and jail for Tommy. Perhaps that would finally aquaint everyone with the reality of what he is, and allow the space necessary for socialists in Scotland to begin the re-grouping process.

by sp Mon May 14, 2007 23:17

Observer, I suggest you go and read what the CWI have written about the SSP over the last few years. You will find article after article that political criticises the right wing leadership of the SSP. The betrayal of the SSP leaders who went into court one after the other to help the reactionary Murdoch press was a political rubicon they chose to cross. They crossed to the side of the enemy, and acting as political scabs is a very good political reason for a split and they have paid the price by being wiped out and good riddance to them.

by Eamon Tue May 15, 2007 08:08

It was Sheridan, not the SSP, who brought the court case and it was he who was responsible for the fact that around 12 or 13 SSP members were eventually dragged to the the courts. Sheridan's case was based on lies and a refusal to face up to his own actions. It was not a class issue, but one that related to Tommy Sheridan's sex life, and had the SSP activists lied for him, they would have been in the ridiculous position of agreeiing with Sheridan that their had been a witch hunt against him in the party since 2004--which there had not. They would also have been re-writing the party's history, in accordance with Sheridan's sex life--a move that the CWI are apparently ok about, but which would strike any serious socialist grouping as totally unacceptable.

Throughout the whole sorry business, the attitude of the CWI has been despicable. Far more than even the SWP, they have tried to provide a political justification for Sheridan's actions, when in fact, none exists.Such is the CWI's irrelevance and marginality in Scottish socialist politics, that they are willing to overlook any type of behaviour from Tommy Sheridan, even his lies and slanders, in the hope that their association with him will bring recruits to their party. They are like a drowning man who has jumped onto a raft, but who hasn't noticed, or doesn't care, that the raft itself is full of holes. The sooner they are gone from Scottish politics, the better.

by Observer Tue May 15, 2007 08:16

To SP member I would say this: the problem with your little note is that the main person in the SP leadership when the CWI was denouncing it was none other than your new friend, Tommy Sheridan. His politics are pretty identical to the remains of the SSP! By no stretch of the imagination, then, was this split caused by political differences. Whatever criticisms you have had of the SSP politically you also had and have with Sheridan - and yet you are in a new party with him. (Some might say thjat you deserve each other).

As to the Murdoch press: all that happened is that the SSP leaders were summoned to appear in court, and did so against their will. Once there they had a choice: commit perjury, or tell the truth. That scarcely puts them in the pay of Murdoch. It is not my opinion that socialist leaders should tell barefaced lies, and in the process traduce the reputations of others, simply in order to protect the personal reputations of a liar.

One other thing: Sheridan took up this action against the almost unnaimous advice of his senior party colleagues. Can you imagine the CWI or SP position if one of your leaders did the same thing??? Imagine Stephen Boyd going to court against the advice of Peter Hadden, Joe Higgins et al. Imagine, moreover, that he is telling lies in court about his private life, and demands that they back him up. Imagine that he then calls them scabs and traitors and ex-socialists for refusing to go along with his lies. This little thought experiment demonstrates the extent of the CWI's doubel standards, sectarianism and hypocrisy in this - all for short term sectarian advantage. There would be some poetic justice if Solidarity collapses before you can reap any membership harvest, as intended - and this remains a distinct possibility....

by Eamon Tue Jun 05, 2007 14:25

The scottish Left, already split apart by Tommy Sheridan's antics over the last year or so, now face the prospect of an even larger ego landing in their midst...
I didn't think things could get any worse for the Left in Scotland, but this article has made me think again. it seems that the most chronic narcissist in politics is now eyeing up Scotland as the next place to benefit from his presence.

http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=878152007

by E4 Watcher Tue Jun 05, 2007 22:55

Gorgeous George is on the aptly named Big Brothers Big Mouth at 11 tonight.

by Laughing from the Visitors' Gallery Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:37

Tommy Sheridan has just sacked Maggie Scott QC as his legal representative, and is begging for more time to prepare his case, as if 4 years was not enough.

This is much, much better than Big Brother and his testimony, when it comes, should be absolutely hilarious.

by joe mcivor Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:23

Before Tommy Sheridan dismissed his council ,the court had already been shown a video tape in which a voice ,which the prosectution say is Tommy Sheridan’s , can be heard admitting to visiting the Cupids swingers club in question. Mobile phone records are also expected to be presented in evidence by prosecutors . In 2008 detectives claimed to have traced Tommy Sheridan's mobile phone to a Manchester swingers' club .According to the Scottish Daily Record police used "cell site analysis" to trace the phone to the vicinity of Cupids sex club at the time Sheridan was reported to have been there by the News of the World. Tommy Sheridan convinced the 2006 libel jury by a seven to four majority that he had not been at the sex club and that the News of The World had libeled him by saying that he had been there .
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/02...7-203

The UK Socialist Party and SWP have both come out strongly in support of Tommy Sheridan as they did in the original libel case he brought against the Murdoch owned paper . Last month the Socialist Party issued a statement alleging that the Scottish police and legal establishment were … “spending millions of pounds of public money in an effort to bring trumped up charges against Scotland's most prominent socialist.” The Socialist Workers Party posted a similar statement on its website calling the perjury case “a disgraceful attempt to smear socialists and underline the power of the media to smash those they oppose and fear.” Tommy Sheridan said after the police held him for six hours of questioning when they arrested him : “I am being treated as if I am a murderer”.

Neither the SP or SWP brief reports quoted above mention that five other people have been charged with perjury after giving evidence in support of Tommy Sheridan in 2006 -among them Patricia Smith who was an SWP member at the time of the original case. In her evidence in support of Tommy Sheridan Ms Smith suggested that Barbara Scott, the SSP minute taker at the executive meeting where Sheridan was alleged to have admitted visiting the sex club, had ,with the SSP executive’s approval, falsified minutes in order to discredit Tommy Sheridan .
Ms Smith said in her testimony at the time that the '"minute of the meeting held to discuss allegations about the MSP's sex life may have been “drafted for negative reasons'."

Also charged with perjury are former members of the SSP Executive Committee who left the SSP with Sheridan after the libel case to form Solidarity : Jock Penman - Solidarity’s Trade Union coordinator, former SSP regional Organiser and shop steward at Rosyth Dockyard; Graeme McIver - the National secretary of Solidarity, also a former Regional Organiser in the SSP and a shop steward at Viasystems; former South of Scotland MSP Rosemary Byrne .
Gail Sheridan’s 73 year old father Angus Healey also faces perjury charges.

A support campaign for the "Sheridan 7" has called the investigation and trial “a shocking waste of public resources” and suggested that the case against the seven is motivated by political considerations . Hinting that the Murdoch press may have influenced the decision to prosecute Tommy Sheridan , BBC Scotland solicitor Alistair Bonnington said on Newsnight Scotland on 17 December last, “lies are told every day and in every case in courts across Scotland. What happens about that? Absolutely nothing. Just because this case involved a politician and a newspaper is not a reasonable basis at all to proceed with a perjury investigation.

http://www.scottishleftreview.org/li/index.php?option=c...id=29

by joe mcivor Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:44

Sorry I forgot these links to the Socialist Party and SWP reports on the court case I quoted from in my previous post :
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/10249/20-09-2...attle
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=22586

Here is a link to another indymedia ireland article on the subject from 2006 :
https://www.indymedia.ie/article/77227?author_name=bb&c...langu

by Jolly Red Giant - Socialist Party / CWI Wed Oct 13, 2010 17:41

For those interested there is a daily blog reporting on the events in the trial here -

http://sheridantrial.blogspot.com/