The vultures are about to land : Israel & US fomenting civil war in Palestine

by Linker Fri Nov 03, 2006 07:06

is here

by Omg Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:25

its a bit rich that the PLO and HAMAS go at each others throats and of course its Israel and USAs fault, the PLO and HAMAS have been at each others throats since day 1

For once in their lives can they accept responsibility and stop blaming EVERYTHING on Israel and US

smuggling a few rifles and a few men is nothing, but its good to know where all the aid money goes, not on the people but on guns

As usual the palestinian leadership have their priorities correct

by PaddyK Sat Dec 16, 2006 17:57

For almost a year now the Palestinian people have been starved by the EU, UN, the US and Israel. We have paid our government to sit in the Dail and preside in silence over this vile policy of destroying democracy through collective punishment. Punishment by deliberate and forced starvation and political imprisonment of men, women and children on a massive scale. Those pot-bellied, hackneyed Political vermin of Dail Eireann who will be on your doorstep soon promising to get your road tarred if you give them an ould wink on the day have blood on their hands in their implementation of the siege and assault on Palestinian society. It looks as though this policy may be about to pay off in a mass bloodletting in Palestine. The western nations have successfully overturned the election results that gave Islamic Party Hamas the mandate to represent the people of Palestine's wishes in making peace with Israel and getting an independent state.

The US has thrown money and weapons at the Palestinian puppet dictators in crumbling Fatah all year and promised them the spoils of war if they kill off Democracy in Palestine. Palestinian Society is now writhing in the pangs of birth as Condalleeza Rice's Evil abomination of Civil war is struggling to be born. She is urgently calling for more money to foment the looming coup that will destroy the Elected government of the people and guarantee a bloodbath as brother kills brother in the latest chapter in the Palestinian people's endless book of pain.

Can these brutalised and betrayed people manage to stand together one last time to finally show the criminal governments of the West that they will not die off just to appease the economic fetishes of our hollow democracies. I fear we are soon to find out if Palestinian Sumud is unbreakable or not. Is there any mercy in the world or in the heavens for the people of Palestine? Will there be any mercy for us for aiding and abetting in the crimes against them? Why should there be? Do we deserve better than the Palestinians? Are we better than them or something?

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6243.shtml

by PaddyK Sun Dec 17, 2006 15:39

"What a war Mahmoud Abbas you are launching, first against God, and then against Hamas."

The Israeli armed forces used to be a no-go career option for Palestinian Arabs. That was because , understandably the Israeli military junta did not trust the Arabs to carry out the human rights deprevation works with the Entheusiasm and vigour expected from a loyal Pro-Israeli immigrant from Russia for example.
But times are a changing on the streets of Palestinian towns where Arabs are being given a new chance to prove that they are willing to kill their neighbours and beat their children for Israel. Amid the taunts of "You look like Israeli soldiers. You are spies." The new Palestinian Batallions of the Israeli army enforce American/Israeli policy on the occupied Palestinians .

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/updates_news/...s.htm

by Marie Stopes Sun Dec 17, 2006 15:51

Do you support Hamas who butchered three children because their father was a member of Fatah? Do you support Hamas who wish to introduce Sharia "Law"?

Or do you support Fatah which is dedicated to a Secular Palestine?

The choice is yours.

by Fred Johnston Sun Dec 17, 2006 16:57 sylfredcar at iolfree dot ie

Dear 'Marie Stopes' - I do wish you'd at least have the courage of your convictions and stop borrowing the names of more illustriuous people. Anyway, that sort of thing is the fault of Indymedia Ireland, and not you, perhaps. While we discuss Israel and fomenting of civil war in Palestine - who couldn't have seen it coming? - it may be of interest to readers to note that The Irish Times in an article yesterday, Saturday 16th, confirmed that the US Military now has a 'full-time' military liaison presence at Shannon airport - now look at what that means: we have a full-time US Military outpost on Irish soil. Is anyone interested in this, or am I speaking to an empty hall?

by Marie Stopes Sun Dec 17, 2006 17:05

While you are making pompous statements. Hamas are attacking secular forces in Palestine. In a major policy speech in Ramallah on Saturday, Mr Abbas blamed Hamas for the crisis, saying the Palestinian people were suffering from an economic siege that had halved incomes. Now I've just heard on the radio news that an explosion has occurred at the presidential offices. Earlier,
mortars were fired at Mr Abbas's office in Gaza City, and a 19-year-old woman was killed by Hamas supporters. Hamas also attacked a presidential guard base.

by Fedayeen Sun Dec 17, 2006 18:21

As a secular socialist, I am 100% against Fatah and very sympathetic towards Hamas in this situation. Abbas is a craven, corrupt collaborator and nothing he says should be taken seriously. Hamas condemned the killing of the three children. A group of power-hungry thugs in the Fatah leadership who have no support from the Palestinian people are plotting a civil war against Hamas at the urging of their friends in Washington. Anyone who takes their side is completely unprincipled and anti-democratic. Talk about "secular forces" betrays either ignorance or dishonesty

by MichaelY - iawm Sun Dec 17, 2006 19:28

It is sad to read messages from anonymistas, or worse from people borrowing illustrious names [in order to enjoy a bit of glamour shining on themselves?], making uninformed or worse, informed by 'objective' western sources, statements re: developments in occupied Palestine.
A few facts:
1. Hamas is the elected politico-military organisation of the Palestinian people. Having ranted non-stop for the need of democracy the US/Britain/Israeli alliance is trying to invalidate the elections - calling for a new electorral confrontation!! Obviously, as far as they're concerned, it's not their corrupt allies who are at fault (their so-called 'secularism' notwithstandng) but the people who didn't vote the right way...... Does it not remind you of recent referendi over here.....? The electoral result is irrelevant -change the people lads.......starve them, bomb them and force them to vote the right way!!
2. In a parallel situation in Lebanon, while it's the opposition of the Hezbollah/Amal/Christian alliance that's asking for new elections, the US/Britain/Israeli alliance is forcing Siniora's hand to stay put......different conception of democracy here it seems.
3. It is almost comical, if it wasn't that horrific, to hear dictators like Mubarak of Egypt [how long has he been in power/) or the feudal mullahs of Saudi Arabia making noises about Hamas in occupied Palestine. We're now hearing that Israel will allow a whole brigade of ex-Fatah fighters, shackled in Jordan for years, to return to the occupied territories to help Abbas!! At least you can't accuse the zionist cabal of confusion - they know where their heart and security is!! Are they likely, one thinks, to allow the 250,000 and more Palestinians living in camps in Lebanon to return home to their lands?

Trocaire is, at the moment, collecting funds so that Palestinians can start growing their own olive trees again - uprooted callously by the occupiers - €15 will help grow one tree. How about it Mary S?The IPSC has just bought lots of Palestinian oil to be sold in Ireland with the proceeds going to an orphanage. How about it Mary S? The IPSC again is involved in boycotting Atlantic Homecare stores that continue to stock israeli goods. How about it Mary S?

Let us contribute seriously to a debate and increase our solidarity with the Palestinian people.....supporting or condoning people like Abbas and his cronies, who seem to have accepted the tutelage of the Empire, won't get us very far.

by Marie Stopes Sun Dec 17, 2006 20:48

You have decided which side you are on a long time ago. You are just a cheerleader for Hamas. Why not rename the the IPSC? It would be more honest to call it the Irish Hamas Solidarity Campaign.

by Fred Johnston Sun Dec 17, 2006 20:53 sylfredcar at iolfree dot ie

Michael Y above delivers the sanest comments yet on this affair. The galling hypocrisy of the West . . . . .Blaie bounces about like an electrocuted puppet and tells the media that, in the interests of security and jobs, the Saudi Arabians have managed to effectively order the UK Attorney General to cease investigating certain alleged deals over sales of UK aircraft to Saudi Arabia - a country which permits no political dissent, is effectively a one-party state, carries out public beheadings and which, incidentally, is dependent on the UK for terrorist and security intelligence; the situation is not, as Blair would have us believe, the other way round. The Palestinian people elect Hamas, democratically, legitimately - but Israel won't have it, the US won't have it, the UK won't have it, and Europe (shackled by old guilt about the Holocaust but none at all about Darfur or Indonesia or, for that matter, Kissinger in Camobodia or Stalin's excesses - nor is there a word about Britain removing the entire native population of a Pacific island in one swoop so that they could permit the US to use the place as an air-base) falls into step. The US and UK governments have shown themselves to be enemies of democracy when it doesn't suit their purposes, and propers-up of ruthless mediaeval dictatorships when it does. We will deal with China, whose execution rate would make even Jeb Bush jealous, and whose latest 'innovation' is the deployment of execution 'buses, specially, and clinically, fitted out so that organs can be removed on the spot from executed criminals; no problem with human rights or anything else, there, no qualms or queries. The US will crawl into a nuclear arms' treaty with India and deny anything similar to Iran - while the Israeli Prime Minister within the past few days lies jaw-droppingly to John Simpson on a TV interview and maintains that Israel has no nuclear weapons! Perhaps indeed there is no God.

by Marie Stopes Sun Dec 17, 2006 21:15

Showing who the real Fifth Column is, Hamas have continued to use Israeli Army tactics. Following on from the slaughter of three innocent children Hamas Militiamen fired into a crowd attending a Pro Fatah demonstration in North Gaza this evening.

Hamas gunmen opened fire at a demonstration attended by tens of thousands of Fatah supporters in northern Gaza, wounding at least one person, and unknown militants fired two mortars at Abbas' office in Gaza City. Five pro-Fatah security men and a 45-year-old woman were wounded, officials said.


Maybe this is why Hamas fear an election:
A poll released Sunday placed Abbas and Haniyeh in a dead heat in a presidential race. Abbas would win 46 percent, compared with 45 percent for Haniyeh. In parliamentary elections, Fatah would defeat Hamas by a 42-36 margin.

The survey was conducted by the independent Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research among 1,270 Palestinians and had an error margin of 3 percentage points.

by MichaelY - iawm Sun Dec 17, 2006 23:53

Whoever you are, calling yourself MStopes, if you're going to quote from Yahoo news quote correctly

This is from the same link

Related Link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061217/ap_on_re_mi_ea/pale...itics

"Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh accused Abbas of inflaming the political crisis by calling for early elections and said his Hamas group would boycott the poll. Abbas, a moderate from Fatah, called for new elections to resolve the political deadlock that has paralyzed the Palestinian government since the hardline Hamas militants won January parliamentary elections.

Hamas' electoral victory split the Palestinian government, with Abbas seeking peace with Israel and Hamas refusing to even recognize the Jewish state's existence. The political tensions have repeatedly turned violent and the chaos has spiralled out of control since unknown gunmen killed the three young sons of a Fatah-allied security chief last week.

Earlier Sunday, Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar's motorcade came under fire as it drove near the Foreign Ministry in Gaza City. Zahar was unharmed, but the attack unleashed a ferocious gunbattle that raged for more than an hour, the worst fighting since unity government talks broke down late last month. Medical officials said a 19-year-old woman was killed in the crossfire."

As for the IPSC being a Hamas front, as posted by MStopes, this is either a result of ignorance or, most likely, a malicious provocative lie. The IPSC has no position on Hamas or Fatah or the Islamic Jihad or the Brigades or the PFLP. But that's what you would expect from a liar......lies and half-truths. I am beginning to suspect MStopes doesn't know the IPSC or most likely is not even based in Ireland. Who are you MStopes?

by PaddyK Sun Dec 17, 2006 23:54

The Hamas led government of Palestine faces into a world sponsored coup which seeks to overthrow the mandate of the Palestinian people, destroy their democratic institutions and put in place US sponsored Martial law. The purpose of this is to relieve Israel of its duty of Human Misery Enforcement in Palestine and afford the Israeli government a chance to install mass development on the ground in freshly annexed private Palestinian land in and around Jerusalem and the Jordan Valley. The presence of the democratically elected Hamas led government as the legitimate negotiators for Palestine has made life complicated for Israel's international economic and political investors in the Middle East as increasingly violent attacks by Israel against its neighbours have drawn unwanted attention to it's murderous activities.
It is rapidly becoming apparent that American and Israeli military operations in the region are anti-democratic and desperately violent as Israel has first tried to kill Palestinian democracy by siege, murder and kidnap with full American collusion then secondly tried to foment civil war in Lebanon (America's freshly baked Cedar Democracy) with the aid of US logistical and political assistance. The death toll in a single year of operations is about 2500, with thousands more maimed and hundreds of thousands homeless and bereaved. European governments remain generally compliant and supportive of this year's harrowing onslaught against the people of the region. Iraq must be separated from this arena of horror which combined here might cause sensory failure for simple Irish human values. We can’t handle the truth, you see.
Our government continues to ignore the mass murder in Palestine whilst simultaneously legitimising the invasion of Lebanon and now, in silence, supporting the proposed coup against the Palestinian government. Over the coming weeks, as Ireland revels in the excesses of Christmas, please don't look away from the political shame of Ireland and Europe as Palestine faces into one of the darkest alleyways she has ever traversed. Social upheaval engineered by US/Israeli death squads carrying out assassinations in Palestine against a backdrop of internationally sanctioned mass starvation and imprisonment. Will they get the bloodbath they crave for the Palestinian people? How horrible will it be? Will hundreds or thousands die? Please don’t look away, you have paid for it, our government has helped to bring it about.

http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20archives/2006%20News%...d.htm

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Dec 18, 2006 00:03

Thank you Fred and Paddy K - more power to you both.

Indymedia friends should go the al-Jazeera link and read what the Palestinian left (PFLP-GC), the Jihad and Hamas really say about what the Abbas clan is trying to do. Why they all reject this manufactured attempt to overturn the January election results.

http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20archives/2006%20News%...d.htm

We will win

by Marie Stopes Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:33

I am somewha puzzled by your outburst. My comments contained no lies. That poll did take place and it did show that Hamas would lose an election. Why do you wish to lie about this? Could it be that yu are a supporter of Hamas. The news report also quite clearly stated that Hamas gunmen had fired on a pro Fath demonstration. Are you dnying that this took place?

Where I come from or where I am based is no more relevant than whether you come from Chile, Bulgaria or Greece.

by Marie Stopes Mon Dec 18, 2006 13:00

Its not just Yahoo that carries news of the opinion poll:

"A poll released Sunday placed Abbas and Haniyeh in a statistical tie in a presidential race. Abbas would win 46 percent, compared with 45 percent for Haniyeh. In parliamentary elections, Fatah would defeat Hamas by a 42-36 margin. The survey was conducted by the independent Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research among 1,270 Palestinians and had an error margin of 3 percentage points."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16235716/

NBC also carried news of the Hamas attacks:

"Hamas gunmen also opened fire at a demonstration of tens of thousands of Fatah supporters in northern Gaza, wounding at least one person, and unknown militants fired at least two mortars at Abbas’ office in Gaza City. Hours later, they launched another mortar shell.

Five pro-Fatah security men and a 45-year-old woman were wounded, officials said. Abbas was in the West Bank at the time.

Elsewhere, the bullet-riddled body of a top security officer affiliated with Fatah, Col. Adnan Rahmi, was discovered in northern Gaza several hours after he disappeared, Palestinian medical officials and his family said. No group took responsibility, but Rahmi’s family blamed Hamas for the killing."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16235716/

If Michael Y wants me to then I shall post half a dozen other sources for this news. Michael Y has chosen the standard of Hamas. I choose the standard of Fatah.

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Dec 18, 2006 13:36

This is what I wrote late last night - and it received no reply

As for the IPSC being a Hamas front, as posted by MStopes, this is either a result of ignorance or, most likely, a malicious provocative lie. The IPSC has no position on Hamas or Fatah or the Islamic Jihad or the Brigades or the PFLP. But that's what you would expect from a liar......lies and half-truths. I am beginning to suspect MStopes doesn't know the IPSC ....Who are you MStopes?

Answers required......

Now, anonymista, you can choose any flag or any banner or any government you want to support.... and any name under which to hide....but the fact is Abbas and his cabal, having lost the January elections, and under serious pressure from the US and Britain, as well as some of the 'democratic' Arab countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt, are trying to reverse history......and plunge the Palestinian people into a civil war which will only benefit the Israelis.
The very same thing they're trying desperately to achieve in Lebanon and have almost succeeded in Iraq.......

by Fred Johnston Mon Dec 18, 2006 14:08 sylfredcar at iolfree dot ie

It is just possible that, anyone cowardly enough to use the name 'Marie Stopes' as a cover may not, in fact exist. It is clear from reading he/she/it, or even them, that they have no real link with anybody, but are throwing in dissent for the sake of it, a very old ploy. I would suspect that the very best way to to deal with 'Stopes' would be to ignore the comments altogether, move into a different angle of argument. For instance, am I the only one to be disgusted by the Irish Times' Tom Clonan Christmas-card greeting to US Military passing through Shannon (December 16th), followed this very morning by Pat Kenny's slavering interview with Clonan - all those poor US soldiers, so many of them with Irish connections!!! - which seems to indicate that the US Embassy has been busy, getting the good PR out there, concentrating through Clonan on the idea of poor kids left behind, sob-sob, while Mom goes to war. Nothing about Iraqi kids who have no Moms anymore thanks to the US, or the kids of Gaza. Interestingly, the Pat Kenny Show this morning carried a reported broadcast from inside one of the US troop carriers as it came in to Shannon. It was a word from the 'plane's captain, telling the soldiers to leave their arms on board. But wasn't the captain's accent IRISH?

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Dec 18, 2006 14:20

Thanks Fred,

Changing the emphasis somewhat and responding to another interesting piece in today's Irish Times

Eoin Ryan and Fianna Fail Attempt to Rewrite History – again!!

A European Parliament special committee, headed by Italian MEP Claudio Fava, that has been investigating the issue of CIA secret flights and prisons in Europe since January last, put 11 countries in the frame in its report: Germany, Austria, Britain, Italy, Poland, Sweden, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Cyprus and Ireland.. The US has already admitted that its intelligence agents detained and transported terrorist suspects. The Report stated that many EU governments not only knew about the practices but helped in a variety of ways in either operating secret prisons or allowing their territories to be used for the illegal transfer of prisoners to locations where they were likely to be tortured or even assassinated.

The report, launched in late November, recommended that the individual states, many of which - including Ireland – were faulted for not fully co-operating with the committee, now launch national enquiries into whether their own secret services, or part of their governmental structures, were involved in illicit actions that may contravene EU human rights legislation. What has been the response of our FF/PD Government?

Dermot Ahern had angry exchanges with the authors of the report, when he was invited to attend the Committee and explain his Government’s actions. Now, as reported in the Irish Times today, Fianna Fail MEP Eoin Ryan has tabled a series of amendments trying to delete parts of the report that mention the 147 rendition flights that stopped over Irish airports, particularly Shannon
The Irish Anti War Movement condemns unequivocally this latest Fianna Fail attempt of trying to brazen out its collaboration with the US/British Alliance. Instead of acting on the Irish Human Rights Commission’s statement that the Government “has not lived up to its human rights obligations by failing to inspect the aircraft at Irish airports”, Eoin Ryan, in one of his amendments, goes as far as to state that the Irish Government “has one of the finest records on human rights”!! These shananigans will not only make our country the laughing stock of Europe but will also be repudiated by the vast majority of the MEPs, including not only the Left but also the liberals and the European Peoples Party.

This total disregard of the Coalition for straight – but damning for them - facts and the reality that hundreds of thousands of armed soldiers have passed through Shannon over the last three years as part of an illegal war, along with 147 specifically registered torture flights, reflects one more time the thinking of our political elite re:human rights and foreign policy. It continues to highlight the servility of our Government re: the Empire.

This is why the Irish Anti War Movement, along with PANA and the NGO Alliance, and in co-operation with its affiliated organisations, will make Shannon and its use by the Empire a key election issue. Enough is enough we say.

by PaddyK Mon Dec 18, 2006 22:48

Just the sound of gunshot fire and a pair idiots mouthing off punctuated the silence in Palestine today. This is what the first idiot was saying:

"It is clear that we are going for early presidential and legislative elections, Nothing stands against that. We are a democratic people, so let’s go to the people."

How stupid of him! he forgets that he already went to the people less than a year ago and the people chose their parliamentary representatives. The chosen government appointed it's ministers and set about the work of building an Independent Palestine for it's electorate. They didnt get far before Israeli death squads murdered some and then Israeli kidnap teams lifted another bunch of them from the streets , 8 of them ministers, and locked them up. The Palestinian democratic choice was thrown in their faces by the whole world and used as a tool of torture against their civil society.

So then the second idiot responded and this is what he said :

"I believe what is important following your speech is that the international community mobilize its efforts to support you in your office".

The international community has watched the slaying of 400 Palestinians in a barabaric attack on the civilians of Gaza for over 6 months and done nothing. The invasion of Lebanon and massacre of 1500 lebanese and the destruction of an entire country's infrastructure with appalling environmantal destruction to miles of Mediterannean coastline and done nothing. But the second idiot thinks that the the international community is going to jump to attention to support their democratic call for a coup against the Palestinian Government.

Never before has a call for "democratic elections" sounded so completely and ludricrously insane as it did between that pair of idiots in Ramallah today. It's like two plumbers looking at a blank kitchen wall where they they installed a new sink at Two O Clock, Spent two hours pulling and ripping it of the wall, then sagely agreeing, just before four o clock, to the home owner:

"Oi we Fink yoo need a noo sink, Luv! Ooooh ats gonna cost ya innit?"

Is anybody buying this brainrotting political poison anymore?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/18/world/middleeast/19mi...epage

by Marie Stopes Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:36

Why does he not address the opinion poll which clearly shows that his beloved Hamas would lose an election if it was called now? He also chooses to ignore the reports that Hamas gunmen fired on Fatah crowds attending funerals and rallies. Given Michaels own chequered past and shape-shifting identities , he is no position to question me because I choose to remain anonymous.

The IPSC are clearly taking the side of Hamas. The leading story on their website is about how Hamas will boycott any new elections. There are 2 other stories on the front page about Hamas opposing new elections. There are 2 stories on the front page about Fatah attacks on Hamas members but none about Hamas attacks on Fatah. I believe that any far minded person would view this as the IPSC being biased in favour of Hamas.

by MichaelY - iawm Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:35

Mstopes is at it again: Here are the three events covered by the IPSC website
[www.ipsc.ie].

16 Dec 2006
President Mahmoud Abbas publicly calls for parliamentary and presidential elections
17 Dec 2006
The Israeli government rebuffs Syrian proposals for negotiations without preconditions
18 Dec 2006
The top leadership of Hamas announces that they will boycott any elections called by Mahmoud Abbas/Fatah

Only a very biased observer would draw the conclusion that this coverage, as stated by Mstopes, is "biased in favour of Hamas".

I will not respond to the felon-setting arguments re:chequered past and the like. My disagreement with this anonymous poster is concentrated on three political areas (and only secondarily on the fact that a very questionable handle is used to cover specific political positions):

a. To demand and impose elections after full democratic elections of less than a year ago showed the feelings and positions of the Palestinian people is fully anti-democratic!! It's what FF did here with the Nice Referendum and it's what Blair/Bush want Abbas to impose. No poll-on-demand would wash this nonsence away. On the basis of polls we should have elections in this gig closer at home every couple of months......
b. My personal view of Hamas is that they're a democratically elected politico-military organisation of a people who are suffering under a barbaric occupation. As an activist in the iawm and the ipsc I respect that reality...notwithstanding any disagreements I may have with [my supposedly "beloved"]Hamas worldview. We had this argument in Indymedia not so long ago re: Lebanon and Hezbollah. It's not the job of solidarity movements in the north to pick and choose who they will and who they won't support in the south- especially when the people in question have spoken loud and clear.
c. Finally, it is my personal view that the Fatah movement, ever since Arafat's abrupt turn in Oslo, has degenerated into a power hungry and EXTREMELY CORRUPT political outfit which is now receiving big-time help from Bush and Co. to try to stem the radicalisation of the Palestinian people. That's why the Palestinian people discarded them last January. Mstopes would better be advised to go and attach his/her "chequered past" definitions to Fatah. Abbas, on the other hand, remains, for a little while, the elected President of the Palestinians - events over the next few weeks will show which way he will turn. I must say I am not very optimistic in his regard. One couild say that any friend of Blair's cannot be our friend...but that's another story isn't it Mstopes?

by Fred Johnston Tue Dec 19, 2006 14:07 sylfredcar at iolfree dot ie

You're right not to respond to Stopesie's cowardly and peevish baiting above. I've had some of that from other quarters; in my case it was a small group old enough to know better. There was no point in arguing with them; I came to the conclusion that their obsession, their need to knock everything I said, indicated that they fancied me!!! When I put that on Indymedia, they scuttled away. I too find it absolutely ludicrous, and deeply unfair, that there should be the slightest call for elections in Lebanon when the people have spoken already. I smell a US hand behind all of this.

by Marie Stopes Tue Dec 19, 2006 14:15

" I came to the conclusion that their obsession, their need to knock everything I said, indicated that they fancied me!!! "

A leper wouldn't fancy you. You Fred seem to deliberately pick fights with people; be they other posters or editors.

You have not countered anything which I wrote here. All of the stories I mentioned are on the front page of the IPSC website.

by David Tue Dec 19, 2006 14:33

Agree with Fred, I think the Hand of Washington is stirring up the hornets nest.

Its hypocrisy is staggering.

It will slaughter and destroy entire countries in the name of its type of democracy but will not uphold the democratic wishes of a small nation crying out for a respite from the continuous onslaught of its zealous religious neighbour.

by Marie Stopes Tue Dec 19, 2006 14:54

Is it not possible to disagree with your views and still be principled? You people frighten me, you are true autocrats. No wonder you find common ground with Hamas (which intends to set up an Islamic State).

You are also rather inconsistent. You support early elections in Lebanon because you think Hizbullah will do well. But you oppose early elections in Palestine because you fear that Fatah would beat Hamas.

Why can't you accept that there are those of us who oppose Zionism and also oppose the Islamists of Hamas. Therefore we support the Secular parties, in my case Fatah, in other cases the PFLP and the DFLP. In the January 2006 elections, Hamas got 43% of the popular vote. Between them, Fatah, PFLP gained over 50% of the popular vote.

by MichaelY - iawm Tue Dec 19, 2006 15:33

Mstopes

"What we are witnessing today is the horrific and inevitable outcome of a process of deliberate coercion, designed to force an occupied people to surrender their elected representatives. That this coercion is being carried out by the military occupier Israel and its neocon backers in the US administration is to be expected - and resisted."

So says Karma Nabulsi - a former PLO representative in Britain

For further reading, if you care, please go to:http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,,1975158,00.html

Also for your information, the PFLP-GC and the Jihad are also opposing this coercive attempt by Abbas and his backers. To oppose a move by the Empire to reverse a democratic process, while imprisoning the elected representatives of a people, does not, repeat does not equate itself neither with autocracy nor philo-Islamic fundamentalism!! You also seem to have skated over the points of autocracy and deep corruption that still bedevills the Fatah Movement. Any views on that over and above their so-called 'secularism'?

Now, as far as opposing Zionism goes, in Ireland, there is little doubt that the foremost organisation that has opposed Zionism in action, certainly over the last 6-8 years has been the IPSC....in co-operation with a number of anti-war organisations. Who was it that mobilised large numbers this summer when Lebanon was invaded? What actions were taken, what mobilisation was conducted by these "other anti-zionists" you refer to? Why do you have such a serious problem with the IPSC ? You ask for people to be serious....please follow your own advice.....

by Marie Stopes Tue Dec 19, 2006 15:43

Here is the latest news regarding Hamas attacks on Fatah and on innocent bystanders. Even children and ambulances are regarded as legitimate targets by Hamas.

Masked Hamas gunmen set up makeshift roadblocks in Gaza City on Tuesday as gunfire echoed around the streets.

In Tuesday's violence:

An attempt to take an injured Fatah militant to a Gaza hospital sparked a battle between Fatah intelligence officers and Hamas militiamen. One Hamas fighter was killed and several injured

In an apparent revenge attack, the headquarters of the pro-Fatah intelligence service near Gaza City came under mortar fire

A convoy of pro-Fatah militants was ambushed on one of the main Gaza City thoroughfares. Two Fatah militants were killed and nine bystanders injured, including five children, medical sources said.

by PaddyK Tue Dec 19, 2006 21:53

Personally, I can’t see why pro-Palestinian organisations are having difficulties taking the side of Hamas. This current internecine strife is about getting control of the government. It’s not about religious decrees, Islamism, Homophobia, misogyny, or any other extraneous detrimental elements within a democratic society. It’s about democratic society itself. The people of Palestine are entitled to the government they elected. If they ever did get the government they elected then any hysterical ranting about their policies might carry some relevance. There is currently a real time, low-level coup underway in Palestine. Same as there is a real time low level civil war in Iraq. The logic is that now that the people have been starved and impoverished to breaking point it is a good time to say to them :

“Do you want it to stop? Would you like food for your children, would you like your jobs back? We know life in Palestine was shit before you elected this government to represent you, but was it not better than this living hell. We give you a chance to put it back to the old shit way that we had it for you . Just Vote for the good ole boys that we all know and love and forget about that petulant notion you had of an freely elected, independent government Wait and see… if you do that for us then you will have food and water again.”

This is the subtext here, and in this context I utterly support the democratic aspirations of the Palestinian people and in this low level coup that we are witnessing it is Ismail Haniyeh and Hamas who speak for Palestine. Not Abbas, who will talk with anybody who helps make him look like a leader including Dangerous, Middle East, Midwife, Condilizard Rice, or even Olmert who installed racist fanaticist Avigdor Lieberman, an Arab hating Russian immigrant and ethnic cleanser, as his deputy. Oh BTW. Our peasant ancestors should have appeased Cromwell when they had the chance, we’d be much better off now.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11319

The Palestinian presidential and legislative elections are done and dusted. They have chosen their representatives, now they seek to select a National Council to take their pathetic plight to the cold robotic International institutions that is the EU the UN. The institutions that created the trap in which the now slowly perish. There is still time for them to be heard I’m sure, but not when organization that support them pussy foot around on the most important issues affecting them. Chiefly, Unqualified recognition and support for their elected government.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6268.shtml

Above is a fuller version of the article posted by Michael Y along with a cosy picture showing the Coup instigators shaking hands and smiling evily on their agreement to instigate a coup. What more proof do you need?

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:28

Are you interested in travelling to the West Bank? Are you interested in seeing for yourself the situation in Palestine and meeting with Palestinian and Israeli activists working for peace and justice?

An 8 day trip to the West Bank will take place from the 17th - 24th February. Staying in Bethlehem, we will travel to Hebron, Ramallah, Jerusalem, Nablus and Jericho. We will meet with various groups including Defence for Children International, Health Works Committee, Rabbis for Peace, Applied Research Institute of Jerusalem, Combatants for Peace and many others.

All are welcome. For further information, please contact westbanktrip@eircom.net

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Wed Dec 20, 2006 13:07

Thanks Paddy K for the very informative article

See how long it takes Mstopes to jump in again

Hamas leaders have reacted to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's threat to call early legislative and presidential elections by declaring that they have nothing to fear at the ballot boxes. Abbas, according to his top aides, and pressurised by Bush and Blair, is seriously considering the possibility of holding new elections as soon as March 2007.

Hamas, which ran in the January 2006 parliamentary election for the first time, now says it is so confident that its members will win a second vote that it is also now studying the possibility of contesting the presidential election.

But Hamas has made it known that it will participate in new elections ONLY if the movement receives assurances that the vote will be conducted in a free and democratic atmosphere.

The main reason why Hamas is not afraid to run in another election is because Abbas's Fatah party has failed to reform itself and get rid of those officials who were voted out because of their role in financial corruption and abuse of power.

As these lines are written the ceasefire and temporary truce holds......

Problems - problems - and Bush and Blair on top of me

by Marie Stopes Wed Dec 20, 2006 13:16

It is quite obvious that you are biased in favour of Hamas. You prefer a party whose programme is written by Allah through the Koran and who intend to introduce Sharia "law". You have not addressed the point that Hamas only won 42% of the popular vote in the January 2006 elections. Secular parties, Fatah, PFLP, DFLP along with other secular forces won 55% of the vote.

Hamas do have a mandate to govern. They do not have a mandate to turn Palestine into an Islamic State. There is a Civil War in progress at the moment, I wish it would end as only Israel & Imperialism will gain from it. But if it is to continue then you have to decide which sidfe you are on. Do you support Allah and Sharia "law" or do you support Secularism?

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Wed Dec 20, 2006 14:08

Mstopes

a. Your first point is irrelevant to the argument and to what Abbas, and his cohorts, are trying to do. To bring your argument closer home, Fianna Fail in the last elections got a lot less than 50% of the votes....but they're the Government party along with that decrepit tail of the dog. Hamas won the parliamentary elections. It was the democratic decision of the people. Period. I, in fact, like and support the fact that 58% of the Palestinian people did not vote for a party that has the political and religious position of Hamas....but that is neither here nor there!! If I am biased it's towards a concept I hold close to my heart...and it's called the will of the people that usually clashes with the designs of the Empire.
b. The politics of Hamas, its leadership and its base, are in the process of evolution. The same holds true of Hezbollah in Lebanon. The same is also true of many parties that grew out of a religious base....look at Sinn Fein and the significant change in its attitudes to womens and gay rights over the years......so, rather than trying to create windmills and then attack them....get down to the fundamental principle of this issue: Hamas, elected by the people, is willing to fight zionism and the plans of the Empire for a 'new Middle East'. Fatah, on the other hand, despite its illustrious past, are corrupt to the gills, will not fight, they see their role as policement against radicalisation and are fast becoming tools of the Empire. Again, if you want to really understand the past and present of the PLO/the Authority/Fatah look at the past and present of Fianna Fail. Think of Collins, think of Aiken, think of the Civil War........think of the 'secular' Sticks and the 'religious' Provos of the '70s split....think of Harris and Lady Wicklow and the Rabbit.

I hope this is not too difficult for you. I have no doubt dear Mstopes that your heart is in the right place re:the Palestinian people. However, I heard there is an affliction, a sort of virus that attacks unsuspecting activists, around certain sections of the Irish(and European) Left called......what is it called.....something to do with the Greek word p h o b i a - which roughly translates as fear or paranoia. Any ideas?

by Barry M Wed Dec 20, 2006 14:35

I agree with the majority of what you say but the republican split in the 70s was along ideological lines and was not religiously driven.

Abstentionism, the northern brigades need for greater autonomy, divisive views between expediency and altriust socialism etc would be among the principle reasons for the split.

The role of the church within the republican movement was always a secondary consideration. In fact the churh and republicanism where often at odds with each. The simple fact is that the majortiy of the oppressed in the six counties happened to be Catholic. The IRA came to be representative as a catholic force only by this assosiation.

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Wed Dec 20, 2006 16:10

Hi Barry

I fully agree with you that the Republican split in the '70s wasn't a 'religious' split. But neither is the Fatah v Hamas confrontation a religious conflict right now..... The very same variables re:nationalism, attitudes to the Soviet bloc, populism are at play.

What I was trying to say above was that the Sticks are an example of the total degeneration of a 'secular' and 'socialist' movement - comparing it to what is happening to Fatah right now. Corruption, power hunger, policing the movement, assassinating opponents

Thanks for the clarification and may I wish you all the best for the days that are coming

Fraternally

Michael

by Marie Stopes Wed Dec 20, 2006 16:14

"What I was trying to say above was that the Sticks are an example of the total degeneration of a 'secular' and 'socialist' movement - comparing it to what is happening to Fatah right now. Corruption, power hunger, policing the movement, assassinating opponents"

Michael it takes 2 sides for a feud, its worth remembering that the PIRA started the 1975 feud with the OIRA. As for Fatah, are you claiming that Fatah members are not being mown down by Hamas members? Your support for Hamas is becoming more and more objectionable.

by Barry M Wed Dec 20, 2006 16:24

Your very welcome Michael and may I be allowed to return those kind wishes.

It was an easy mistake to make as the train of thought can suffer in an attempt to explain to zealots like MStopes the innaccuracies of their arguements/devils advocacy.

I hope your trip in Febuary is a good one and look forward to hearing news of the struggle there from an honest and reliable source.

by Marie Stopes Wed Dec 20, 2006 16:26

Despite provocations by Hamas, Fatah is maintaining its cease-fire.

Two Fatah policemen were killed hours into the ceasefire, but the group said it would maintain the truce. There were reports that at least five other Palestinians were injured in the attack that killed the policemen during an overnight patrol.

A Fatah spokesman, Tawfiq Abu Khoussa, blamed Hamas for the killings: "They came under fire from an ambush of masked gunmen affiliated with Hamas," he told the Associated Press. A funeral was held for both men on Wednesday, AP said, with sporadic violence breaking out.

But Fatah insisted it would abide by the ceasefire, with some semblance of normality returning to daily life in Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6197059.stm

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Wed Dec 20, 2006 16:32

P I R A and O I R A are linguistic terms a bit outside the lingo parameters of the Irish movement Mstopes. In fact, a few here in Ireland would say that those terms have been coined and used by intelligence services over the water. Careful, your usage of these terms may situate you, I'm sure inadvertently, in some very deleterious camp.
What the Sticks did in the '70s and '80s, on the other hand, was far removed from a tango and is well documented as a very dogmatic and stalinist cha-cha-cha; it does not need any revisionist refrain and revisiting here.
As for what is going on in occupied Palestine, the truce is still holding...how about you getting on with your Christmas shopping and me my work and leave it at that?

by Marie Stopes Wed Dec 20, 2006 17:12

If you perform even the most cursary search on Indymedia you will see how often the terms PIRA and OIRA are used. Perhaps you think all of these people are in MI6 or the CIA?

" Careful, your usage of these terms may situate you, I'm sure inadvertently, in some very deleterious camp."

You are the one who needs to be more careful. Your command of the English language is far from ideal. Perhaps it comes from your continually evolving Chilean, Bulgarian, Turkish, Greek identity.

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Wed Dec 20, 2006 17:45

I asked you earlier :how about you getting on with your Christmas shopping and me my work and leave it at that.....
You insist in being abusive and personal...I asked you to desist from felon setting but I'm talking to the wall. For a person who can't even spell c u r s o r y, you have some cheek talking about command of language......

Yes, PIRA and OIRA were coined by the MI5.....little does it matter if people in Indymedia use the acronyms.....I F they do...OIRA has not been heard around these parts for about 20 years!! Certainly nobody from either the Left, the Republican Movement or the activist circles would use OIRA in ref to the Stickies!

I should have followed Fred's and PaddyK's advice above and stop responding to your bull. You're a waste of time. Your arguments are designed to divide and Allah only knows the labyrinth of the personality(ies) behind the silly name. End.

by Marie Stopes Wed Dec 20, 2006 18:47

"You insist in being abusive and personal...I asked you to desist from felon setting but I'm talking to the wall. For a person who can't even spell c u r s o r y, you have some cheek talking about command of language......"

Now you are the one who started this ball rolling, implying that I was an agent because I disagreed with you. Obviously you can lash it out but you cry when anyone criticises you back. Your command of the English language is suspect. Your grammar, syntax, spelling etc is appalling. You are in position to criticise me.

Many on Indymedia use PIRA and OIRA. Just did a short search and I find that even RSF members use the term PIRA. The sticks themselves use OIRA. Are they MI5 or MI6 agents?

by Fred Johnston Wed Dec 20, 2006 20:52 sylfredcar at iolfree dot ie

Dear Ms Stopes - A dating-agency might help. You can contact them online, too. You simply cannot presume to be having relationships with the rest of us merely because we reply to your rather schoolgirlish rantings. No, it's not infatuation on our part - but nonetheless, isn't all this attention exciting! As to your remark about lepers . . . . Oh, dear! What a dreadfully revealing thing to say! Behind all that concern for truth lies a facist mind at work. What would you do with lepers, Ms Stopes - cattle-trucks, perhaps? Put on the kettle, there's a good girl. A spoonful of tea - not coffee, jangles the nerves; sit down, have a cigarette. Read a light book, Cecilia Ahern, perhaps.

by PaddyK Thu Dec 21, 2006 00:27

Anybody who has read everything in this thread, including links, is obviously very interested in this issue. There could be two main reasons for that. 1. They have great concern for the Palestinian plight and wish justice for them. 2. They believe the unfolding events, though violent, are righteous and democratic minded and will lead to a better more stable region for all its inhabitants. IMO both of those standpoints would have to be respected although also IMHO a person of the latter disposition must be reading some very sobering information elsewhere that is not being shared here. If that is the case I would urge that person to do so. Personally, I dont beleive any such mitigating information or circumstances exist for the current events in Palestine and these events are exactly as they are outlined here. Some people might say "Yes. Big deal, its always been like that and we are all still here, get over it." Thats fair enough too, this country certianly has a lot of problems that should be dealt with.

But to anyone who has an interest in and so far followed this thread I would ask them to consider reading an article posted on the net this morning by Jonathan Cook. He is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth. He is hard minded on such issues and never minces words or pulls punches.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=2...11673

In his article he asks :

"The obvious question, then, is why would the US want and intend civil war raging across the Middle East, apparently threatening strategic interests like oil supplies and the security of a key regional ally, Israel?"

The answer he provides is truly frightening. If his observations are correct than we are going to find ourselves in very deep trouble in the very near future. If he is right then shrugging our shoulders or ignoring what we clearly see to be unfolding is nothing short of suicidal.

Please read the article and consider the implications of his deductions. Not on how they relate to the Palestinians if you wish but on how they relate to you and those you love.

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:55

Excellent link Paddy K - well done. Emailed the link to iawm and ipsc comrades as Cook's article does provide a novel - and frightening - analysis of what the US and Israel are attempting.

In the meantime, on the ground, Hamas and Fatah agreed late yesterday (Tuesday) to a new cease-fire. Mahmoud Abbas announced the new cease-fire and said it would begin at 11 p.m. The truce was brokered by an Arab delegation at the Egyptian Embassy in Gaza.

The new agreement came shortly after PM Ismail Haniya called on Palestinians to "maintain your unity" and end the bloodshed. "We are not enemies ... We have different political points of view, but we should not sink in this Israel-American plot," the Hamas leader said in a lengthy televised address. Haniya blamed the United States for backing "an undeclared decision" to replace the Hamas-led Palestinian government through early elections.

"There is a decision to topple this government, and the Americans are the ones who lead this policy," Haniya said.

by PaddyK Fri Dec 22, 2006 03:42

A bad day for the coup instigators is a good day for the Palestinians and the world. One Mammy was even anticipating letting her kids back out on the bloody street tomorrow - Careful there Luv.

"On Thursday people are once again leaving their houses after spending several days inside for fear of catching a stray bullet, one Gaza City resident told PNN. But a 47 year old mother of six children said that she intends to keep her kids home for another day, just to be safe." http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task...=1265

The Palestinians prevailed in their struggle to maintain peace, but right on cue another Barbarian picks up the mad cry for the slaughter against the Palestinians:

"I call on the prime minister to put an end to this restraint," said Netanyahu.
Then he urged the fascist Israeli government to unleash the forces of the Israel army against the Palestinians. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3343163,00.html

But with all this peace and quiet Abbas and his cronies are just dying to have a chat with the Israeli Junta. Possibly they are running out of petrol money or Jeruselam Lunch Tokens or something even more annoying for them.

Saeb Erekat sounded a little peckish when : "He noted that the Palestinian president has nothing preventing him from participating in such a meeting as soon as possible."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3343196,00.html

BUT, a good day for the Palestinians and a good day for peace.

by Marie Stopes Thu Jan 04, 2007 13:18

In a series of attacks designed to utterly break the cease fire, Hamas have shot dead 4 Fatah members. A woman civilian was also killed, it is not clear whether she was shot accidently or whether it was because she was wearing "western" style clothes.

Hamas gunmen killed three Fatah-allied security officials in Khan Younis. The security officials were attacked near the town hospital, according to Palestinian security officials quoted by AP news agency. Before the ambush, the officers reportedly stormed a house where a colleague who had been kidnapped was being held.

In an earlier incident on Wednesday, a Fatah man died in northern Gaza. Fatah stated he had been shot from a nearby rooftop by a Hamas sniper.

In the Jabaliya refugee camp, one woman was killed, Reuters news agency reported.. It is not clear whether a Fatah member was the intended target. The woman was dressed in "western" clothes and Hamas have been attempting to impose Sharia law in Jabaliya.

by Marie Stopes Fri Jan 05, 2007 15:40

Hamas are continuing their attacks on Fatah members. The restraint shown by Fatah cannot be expected to last. Irish supporters of the Palestinian cause will not wish to see a full scale civil war break out. But Hamas seem determined to provoke such a war. In the last three days Hamas have killed more Palestinians than the number of Israelis they have killed in the last three months.

A very senior figure in a security service linked to Fatah, Col Mohammed Ghayeb, was killed when Hamas gunmen attacked his home, Fatah officials said. Four of his bodyguards also died, and his wife was wounded. Col Ghayeb was heard pleading for help in a phone call broadcast by Palestine TV, Associated Press reported.

"They are killers. They are targeting the house, children... are bleeding. For God's sake, send an ambulance, we want an ambulance, somebody move," he was heard saying.

by Fred Johnston Mon Jan 08, 2007 15:31 sylfredcar at iolfree dot ie

The US administration has publicly admitted that, through Egypt, they are funnelling monies and arms to Fatah to enable an armed opposition against the democratically-elected Hamas government. They no longer bother with pretence. The largest exporter of terrorism in the world, the United States has once again shown that the only democracies permissable are those acceptable to them and who will co-operate with their policies. Having called for the removal of Arafat for years, the US and Israel got what they wanted, then followed elections: the people backed Hamas. The US bullied Europe into protesting: No, said the US and Israel, that's not how we want you to exercise democracy. Recalling Saddam Hussein in Iraq, one must never forget that the US will support tyrannical and brutal regimes rather than democracies, if policy makers at home sleep more soundly. There is something vile about American policy, something of the blood-lust, the vampiric. Something, dare one say, truly evil. Let us not forget that the Irish government has permitted this dark empire to establish a permanent military presence at Shannon airport. Yes, that's right - the word is 'permanent'.