All out to support the nurses' mass rally in Dublin on Wednesday, November 22nd!

by lst Mon Oct 23, 2006 17:54

I won't be there either.

This is yet another pre-emptive raid on the public purse by protected and pampered public-sector employees. The bottom line is that the extra billions recently poured into the health sector have gone, not to providing better care, but have been vacuumed up by doctors nurses and administrators in the form of huge pay-rises. The victims of this raid have been the rest of us who are on average much less well off than these prima-donnas (and who have to endure insecure unpensionable employment)

by Trade Unionist Mon Oct 23, 2006 18:04

To the first commenter: "yeah so they can spend the extra cash buying more junk produced by the world's poor. i'll be there... not!" If thats your attititude towards nurses then maybe the demo would be better off wihout you.

As for "This is yet another pre-emptive raid on the public purse by protected and pampered public-sector employees. The bottom line is that the extra billions recently poured into the health sector have gone, not to providing better care, but have been vacuumed up by doctors nurses and administrators in the form of huge pay-rises. The victims of this raid have been the rest of us who are on average much less well off than these prima-donnas (and who have to endure insecure unpensionable employment)"

The logic that you attack the good and well earned working conditions of public sector workers like nurses in order to benefit workers in insecure unpensionable jobs is warped logic- moron!
Secondly, where do you get off calling nurses 'prima donnas'?
You sound like a PD-FG voting loser.

Support the Nurses.

by LST Mon Oct 23, 2006 19:52

Well, 'trade unionist' I presume that if you had a cogent argument yoiu wouldn't have to resort to name-calling.

The problem is that extra billions HAVE been poured into the public health system. The problem for those of us morons who cannot aford private health insurance and who depend on on the public system is that we have seen virtually no improvement in waiting times or quality of care despite our taxes going to fund the wasted billions. The stark awful reality is that instead of going to employ extra people and provide more beds, all the money has gone on huge pay increases for people who were already richer (and more secure) than the mugs whose earnings were hi-jacked to pay for the pampered malcontents.

The public health consumer is voiceless - unlike the pampered malcontents who are represented by TU officials (whose own pay and conditions are index-linked to the higher reaches of the public-service). To add insult to injury, the long-suffering public actually subsidizes, through the tax system the TU subs that fund the enormous salaries of these TU officials.

We are truely screwed through every oriface by these brigands and their cynical representatives.

By the way, in recent years less well paid workers with insecure jobs have seen their pay and conditions deteriorate in relation to publicly funded workers. Isn't it about time some of these working class heroes in Connolly Hall prioritized restoring some sort of parity of condoitions for those of us who languish in the unprotected public sector?

by TU Mon Oct 23, 2006 20:25

Calling someone a moron in the context above is a statement of fact not name-callng and yes there are simple arguments that even you could understand.

To begin with the very fact you use the term 'customer' or 'pubic health consumer' gives a perfect insight into your politics. Anone who uses the language of the market like that to describe people who avail of the public health system, me included by the way, cause like you I cant afford the private route.

Its a lie to talk about billions being wasted on the health service.You'd think the government were throwing money at the health service.
Far from a bottomless pit the health service was stripped of resources in the 1980's and into the 1990s and for most of the early years of the boom has received well below EU average in funding as a percentage of GDP. Fianna Fail despite saying in 1987 that cuts hurt 'the old, the sick and the handicapped' successive ministers had cut 6,000+ beds by 1993.
They then directed in 1991 that 10% of public beds be set aside for private patients.
Charlie Mc Creevy in 2001 gave tax breaks to build private hospitals.
So if you are as you claim like me unable to afford private health care, then the people you should be angry with is FF not the nurses who are overworked and under paid. A victory for them is a victory for all public health users (not customers by the way)

You go on to say
"By the way, in recent years less well paid workers with insecure jobs have seen their pay and conditions deteriorate in relation to publicly funded workers. Isn't it about time some of these working class heroes in Connolly Hall prioritized restoring some sort of parity of condoitions for those of us who languish in the unprotected public sector?"

True, but if you think that the way to fix the issue of unpaid workers in insecure private sector employment is to reduce the pay and conditions of public sector workers your wrong. Explain how doing this would benefit private sector workers or any worker for that matter??

by LST Mon Oct 23, 2006 21:17

If you are a trade-union official or unionized health worker you do NOT depend on the public health system. Public employees, even at clerical grades, are almost universally members of tax-subsidized health insurance schemes such at VHI and BUPA. Statistically, people who work in the private sector are 5 times more likely to be dependant (along with those who depend on social welfare) on the public health system. Unlike you, WE can't afford the health policies which allow us jump the waiting-lists. Tax subsidized health insurance is little use to people who can't afford the olicies in the first place (Our only function is to pony up the tax for our public-service betters)

Even a moron like me gets the point that private employees who statistically earn less than equivalent public employees (even discounting pensions you couldn't buy, and gold-plated job-security) are taxed on our modest earnings to pay wage increases for the golden-circle of much wealthier public-servants which are much higher than those we ourselves can expect under the various national programmes.

It is just a gas that you object to me regarding myself and people like me as customers and consumers. Sorry, I forgot that the primary purpose of the health-system is to deliver a superior standard of living to doctors, nursers and administrators. Us morons just pay for it.

As for the red-herring of private hospitals...... The fact is that all the public money spent on subsidies for private hospitals for the well to do (TU officials included) is utterly insignificant in relation to the public monies spent on wage increases for existing health-workers under the national programmes. Ill never see the inside of a private hospital anyway. They are fo
r the 'plan c' TU nabobs.

As for hard work. Don't we all. In fact I'll tell you about stress. Stress is working all the hours God gave, and then some, and not knowing whether you will have a job to pay the mortgage next month, and looking forward to retirement on the OAP. That, you pampered buffoon, is STRESS.

If you wan't a political comment, here's one - greed isn't good. And by the way, it is not a wonderful victory for working people to have their meager wage-packets filleted to pay huge sums of money to already over-priveleged health-elites.

by TU Tue Oct 24, 2006 00:33

1. I'm not an official. I never even suggested it. Its in your head. You do know that you CAN be a trade unionist and not an official. I'm a shop stweard and I do depend on public health system.
2. How dare you get all high and mighty and skew the whole debate in some private v public rubbish. The only people your argument benefits is the real fat cats of FF and the PDs and their wealthy friends. Knocking public secotr workers is a cheap pd/ff scam to deflect attention from the real enemy.

I agree that there is golden circle. I agree that private sector employees fair worse that others but that is NO excuse for blaming public sector employees- its a 'cheap' and failed tactic to side step the rela problem.

Public sector and private sector should defend each other in a fight against the real enemy- the larry goodmen of this world and their private hospitals.

Don't be blinded by Tosh and the crap. Support the nurses.

by seedot Tue Oct 24, 2006 02:03

d'ya know TU, maybe LST has a point. Maybe its better to attack the gains of other workers - maybe we'll get rewarded by the employers for doing so and won't have to fight for our own gains. Maybe we should always be a customer / consumer - judge all value in euros and accept the deaths and hardships caused to the weak in our society as being a sad but necessary consequence of them being 'financially challenged'.

But even on this basis, I think there's a flaw in LST's argument. If I'm not a citizen or a worker or an inhabitant, just a customer - I'd still like you to tell me more about these organisations that you get paid more if you work in a workplace that is organised by them. Sounds like a good deal. All I have to do is pay four euro a week and learn to get organised, if I'm to gain the consumer paradise that LST talks about.

Support the nurses, join a union - good plan LST.

by Paul Kinsella - CPSU Activist And An Post Worker Strictly Personal Capacity! Tue Oct 24, 2006 15:00 53 Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire. 0851478100

And the 1000s waiting for many months and even years for, in many cases, urgent operations? None of the detractors, 'fredag', 'lst' or 'LST' (could be the same troll using different aliases!) have answered this question! Instead, they have done what all trolls do, try to sidetrack this into a cheap and nasty attack and slur on our nurses, who have to put up with all sorts of nonsense and crap, whether it be from bullying managers and management (up to Harney and Ahern), or abusive and even violent patients, many of whom are drunk or stoned out of their heads. Wouldn't surprise me if 'fredag', 'lst' or 'LST' fall into that catergory, and because the nurses and hospital workers told them to behave themselves, that's why they're so bitter. That might explain the sour grapes from ye. Or else, you're Fianna Fáil and/or Progressive Democrat trolls trying to muddy the waters, hoping that you'll dampen down the enthuaism from people for the nurses' protest on Wednesday, November 22nd. Because ye are unrepresentative cranks. If you were to ask people in an opinion poll, most people would rate nurses very highly, and appreciate the very hard and important work that the nurses do. You would find that nurses are one of the most respected and trusted professions, ranking higher than such former pillars of society such as the guards and politicans. Don't think I need to say anymore on this subject. I think whatever needs to be said has been said, either by me or 'TU' or 'seedot' in their comments. All I will say again, is let's have everyone out supporting the nurses in their rally on Wednesday, 22nd November. All out on Wednesday, November 22nd!

by LST Tue Oct 24, 2006 15:29

The plain fact of the matter is that the TU movement has become a tool of the public sector and could not give one damn about the less well-off private-sector workers.

The reality is that the ICTU has negotiated three national agreements in a row which have necessitated the introduction of stealth taxes to fund guarranteed wage increases for secure well-paid public-sector workers which are larger than the conditional wage-increases provided for less well-off private sector employees.

I have no problem with public-sector workers getting a fair wage - as long as the lower standard of living of private-sector workers isn't depressed further to pay for all the largess.

I'll give you an example that even a crap moran like me can understand.

Local authority employees get large wage-increases under national wage agreements. These increases are never funded in the structures agreed between the bosses, trade unions, and government. The County Managers (extremely well paid public employees) then introduce new local taxes to pay the increases for their sleek employees. Of course everyone has to pay the new taxes. However, the public recipients are compensated by their large pay hikes. The private workers see their more modest pay rises completely vanish in bin and water taxes.

That is the reality of a TU movement that neither cares for or represents the unprotected employees of the private sector.

Any surplus money going into the health service must go to increase provision of services for those who depend on the public health system - not to further feather-bed people who have already been the big winners under successive wage agreements.

BTW, are you guys able to make an argument that doesn't depend on calling other human beings 'crap' and 'morons'?

by LST Wed Oct 25, 2006 00:40

By the way guys, now that you have conceded the manifest truth that private-sector workers are in fact less well off than their pampered public-service counterparts, when can we expect the working class heroes in Connolly Hall to call a congress to prioritize bringing private-sector workers up to parity with the public sector on pay, job-security and pensions?

The answer is never because the ICTU has become the preserve of the public sector elites and couldn't give a fiddlers about inequality.(that is, inequality in Ireland as distinct from Africa and other safely far-away places)

Jesus wept.

by Paul Kinsella - CPSU Activist And An Post Worker Strictly Personal Capacity! Wed Oct 25, 2006 14:51 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com Lorcan Grove, Santry, Dublin 9, Eire. 0851478100

'fredag', 'lst' or 'LST' (could be the same troll using different aliases!) you haven't answered my questions, do you care about the 100s of people lying on hospital trolleys for days on end? And the 1000s waiting for many months and even years for, in many cases, urgent operations? I'm still waiting! Don't you care? Or give a damn 'fredag', 'lst' or 'LST'? Instead, of trying to divide and conquer, and side-track this debate, as all opponents and trolls try to do, by launching cheap, nasty and unsubstantiated attacks against our hard-working nurses. What do you propose to do, to end the scandal of 100s of people lying on hospital trolleys for days on end, and the 1000s waiting for many months and even years for, in many cases, urgent operations? I notice you're not calling for 1000s of patients and ordinary people to come out onto the streets in mass protests to end this scandal! Even, for someone as anti-Union as you, I thought that's the very least that you'd be calling for, or indeed organising your own patients' protests! Maybe, the truth is that you're an apologist for Harney and the rest of the Fianna Fáil/Progressive Democrats Government trolling here, trying to wreck this debate. Well, you won't succeed! Regarding your repeated claims that the Unions have abandoned private sector workers, well what have you 'fredag', 'lst' or 'LST' done to correct this situation? Have you got up off your big, fat backside and tried to organise workers in where you work into joining a Union? Why, do I suspect not? Probably, to repeat what I said above, perhaps, the truth is that you're an apologist for Harney and the rest of the Fianna Fáil/Progressive Democrats Government trolling here, trying to wreck this debate.

by LaLa Wed Oct 25, 2006 15:07

The nurses are well paid professionals their far from the breadline.

Throwing more money at the sickenss professionals or the drug companies not going to make people healthier. An alltogether different approach to the sickness industry is needed.

by LST Wed Oct 25, 2006 16:55

Well, Paul Kinsella,

It's like this. The betrayal and lack of solidarity did not come from the private sector employees.

private medicine is a complete red-herring. Crap morons like me will never get to use it anyway. It will be the preserve of the bosses, the sleek TU officials, and the 'plan C public servants. Trying to divert this discussion away from the plight of private-sector workers and towards airy fairy ideological discussions on private vs public investment shows how frightened the public-service employees are of a debate on the deterioration of the circumstances of private employees at a time when public employees, particularly health workers, have seen huge real gains in their pay and conditions.

This is the way the system works. When the national agreement comes around to be negotiated, the Unions sit down with the government and bosses. The Unions these days represent mainly public workers, and their agenda reflects that representation. The private-sector bosses want two things, industrial peace and to be allowed keep as big a slice of their profits as they can get away with. The bosses make appropriate noises about public-sector wages, but really they don't much care. The bosses know that it is cheap to buy off the unions by conceding large public pay increases if they can get away with lower private sector increases circumscribed with all sorts of conditions which they can manipulate to their advantage. Moreover, the boses know that because public wages are paid for from general taxation, they will only have to pick up a small portion of the added tax that pays for feather-bedding the public employees. On the other hand, they pay directly for the wage-increases in the private sector.

Having agreed big guarranteed pay-hikes for their well-paid and secure public employees, and smaller conditional increases for the insecure private employees, the bosses and ICTU nabobs sign-up, go off for a drink in the Shelbourne and then home in the mercs to Foxrock or Howth.

I am prepares to lay a bet that not one of the people languishing on trollies at this moment in our public hospitals is a public-sector employee.

No I will NOT be at this march of the over-priveleged, I will be far too busy paying the wages of the participants.

'Workers solidarity' would have some credibility if the reality wasn't a one-way deal in favour of the better-off.

by oh noes Thu Oct 26, 2006 17:35

i had to go in for an operation last christmas and could have had private or public and the nurse advised me to take public as they just gouge when ur on private

fair play i said and so i went public---now i got excellent service apart from 1 thing

the operation----i was waiting on a trolley for 3 hours outside the operating room and in that time 3 other people(who paid for private) were wheeled past me

my sumup: nurses do a fantastic job given the shit they put up with and deserve more money, unlike those consultant fucking specialists that cream it