All the children of the nation are to be cherished equally - but some will be cherished more equally

by Sarah Wed May 09, 2012 19:16

As a 14 year old going to CTYI this Summer I am most certainly not from a wealthy background. As it is my single mother is saving for this and I plan to run an art and drama and games summer camp for 4-8 year olds for two weeks early Summer to cover some of the CTYI costs. The courses offered won't give me any edge in my Junior and Leaving Cert really...Philosophy, Journalism, Bio-med ect. It learning for the sake of... learning.

by someone Fri Jan 23, 2009 23:07

ctyi is not for the elite in society. it's for kids that need help. imagine being locked in a room with 20 sums to do. you are bored all day and have nobody to talk to as you have no friends becouse you're smart. ctyi helps kids by providing proper challenges for them and shows them that they're not a freak of nature.

by FormerStudent - Ex_CTYIer Fri Nov 23, 2007 23:38

CTYI does not run courses that overlap with the acedemic content of either the junior or leaving cert. As a former pupil of CTYI, I find it highly offensive that people seem to be so unwilling to listen to the advantages.

Allow me to describe some of the friends I made there. One was the youngest child of two secondary school teachers; another was the oldest child in a family where both parents were unemployed - she paid no fees at all. Another friend was the oldest of three children in a single parent family that lived 5 minutes away in the Ballymun towers. Only one, and I stress, ONE, person came from a wealthy family. generally people were from working class and middle class backgrounds. Their parents were very ordinary people with very average incomes. How exactly does that demonstrate the alleged exclusiveness and elitism suggested by the original article and some subsequent posts?

While I was there CTYI ran some art based courses. Entry into these was the same as entry into the other courses. That is, your SAT results. Artistic ability did not factor into the equation, in fact, there were some people in that class who genuinely could NOT draw. There was a student who was highly artistically talented but didn't acheive the required marks in the SATs. She submitted a portfolio but was still not allowed to participate in the course. This might seem strange to some of the more narrow minded people out there, but allow me to explain the reasons behind that decision. The purpose of the course is not just the content of the classes. The classes are there to allow children to stretch their minds, to learn about a subject that they would not have had access to otherwise. Although that student was very talented at art, the chances were that she would not have fitted in in CTYI - where many students choose to discuss current affairs rather than current celebrity gossip.

The vast majority of students in CTYI complain that school is boring. However, their complaint is not based on the same reasons that most other students base this complaint on. Ordinary school classes are paced at a level that the slowest student in the class can cope with. Explain something once to me, my CTYI friends or any other CTYI student - present or former - and you won't need to explain it again. Imagine the frustration of sitting in a class where a basic concept is being explained four or five times!!!

During my first year at CTYI, I commuted to DCU every day. When my mother arrived to collect me after my first day, my exact words to her - the first thing I said when I got into the car - were "I can talk to these people!". At thirteen years old, my interests were current affairs, chess, maths and science. Go into a normal 1st year class and ask for a show of hands of people who would cite those as their interests. You won't find many.

I, like most other CTYI students, did not fit in in school pre-CTYI. I was frustrated because hair, makeup and boys did not hold my attention for the aeons that it held my peers' attention. The key focus of CTYI is on providing an atmosphere where like minded people - the rejects of their "normal" peer group - can get together and communicate. CTYIers can realise that they are not alone, they are not totally unique, that they too, can fit in.

Unfortunately I can only speak of the impact that CTYI had on my own education, but here is a (hopefully) brief outline. By the start of 6th class I was already doing Second year algebra. By the middle of 6th class I had lost the ability to multiply and divide. It was cool and socially aceptable to strugle, or just to be average. I was tired of being isolated. Only for the fact that my teacher picked up on the fact that my aptitude tests had me in the 99th percentile in every area, I would probably have ended up in the remedial class (that same class that many people here have no problem funding, despite disliking the funding that CTYI gets). Through secondary school, up until and including the summer of 4th-5th year, I attended CTYI. During this period I was well behaved, did not disrupt class and worked. I interacted normally with my classmates because I had another outlet with people who were similar to me during the summer. I became happy and contented for the first time.

Then I became too old for CTYI. My outlet taken from me I inadvertently became disruptive in class, I didn't work, refused to study because it was so tedious going over material that was blatently obvious - over and over and over again. By the time 6th year came around, my mother was in tears after the parent teacher meeting because all the teachers were saying the same thing "if she doesn't start studying soon it will be a complete waste of talent". Honestly, I wouldn't have made it to 6th year if I hadn't had CTYI as an outlet for the first 5 years of secondary school. Nor am I alone.

So, would the detractors of CTYI rather invest a sum total of €86,000 per annum for ALL of these students, or would they rather fund their social welfare because they never had an outlet for their ability and became too frustrated with school to bother at all? Instead of being on the dole right now, I am in college, studying a subject that will allow me to go on and be in taxed at the higest rate in a few years from now. The money that was invested in me as a student of CTYI, will be raked back in tax within the first year of my entering my chosen profession.

Every student needs their unique needs catered for. For the acedemically weak, they need help to bring them along and get them up to exam standard. For the academically strong, they need help to learn how to interact socially, to learn independantly of school at a faster pace - a pace that suits them. Every child needs to be catered for and for too long, the government has focused only on 1 extreme of the spectrum of ability.

I don't think any CTYI-er would begrudge any person of the correct ability the chance to participate. Everyone there would love the cost to be less, so that anyone who qualified could participate.

I would ask that some of the people here take a proper look at their attitudes and grow up a little. The majority of the cost is borne by the students' parents. The government donates a proportionately small amount of money that i'm sure, just about covers the administration costs of the programme.

Congratulations to anyone who managed to read the full extent of this post.

by Goddit Fri Aug 10, 2007 02:52

CTYI instructors are paid less than the Department rate, which itself wouldn't be considered exorbitant. Secondly, you used the term hot-housing....a colloquial term that unveils your ignorance of these matters. The correct term is acceleration. CTYI does not facilitate this. It facilitates enrichment.
The fees parents pay are not tax deductable. Indeed, the fees they pay generate secondary and further employment effects well beyond the value of the government input so that the government gets more out of CTY than it puts in. But then the observer is always greener than the grass on the other side.
Finally, what's wrong with US benefaction? There's alot of it facilitating the the technology that allows these posts. You might get that point.

by Goddit Fri Aug 10, 2007 02:39

To Skanger Pride,

€86,000 given by the Department is in partial recognition of the fact that CTYI is an inclusive body and that it provides a valuable service that the Department cannot provide. That figure is a miniscule amount of what it costs to run CTYI. Very little could be done anywhere by redistributing that sum. For example, that is the heating bill for a typical secondary school for 2 years (for some, only 1 year). It does more good in CTY.

The programme is not elitist. It doesn't exlude anyone, no more than a pub or a cinema or shop does. Plenty of children attending are from very ordinary economic backgrounds. They may not be poor but I'm sure CTYI would love it if the government provided enough funding to cater fee-free to every child who qualified academically. CTYI students' parents make sacrifices to send their children there. They work hard, skip a holiday, or more so that that can send their children there.

CTYI is rooted in the community, the community of academically highly able children who are bound together by a desire to be what they can be when the more-than-€86000-underfunded school system cannot provide for them. For the cost of €86,000, you would have them suffer with the rest. Isn't it better that we 'save' one than none at all? Where would the world be if all the highly able people were left stunted because of some mistaken appeal to notions of sameness? Should the government stop spending money on other 'elitist' groups (many of them community groups) so that it can put the money into the general education system? And while at it, make all sources of enjoyment prohibitively expensive so that parents aren't distracted from the singular pursuit of ensuring Jonny has finished his essay and has crossed his t's and dotted his i's? Or taxed all incentive out of existence so that we can educate our children, all, brilliantly, so they can emmigrate for lack of employment?

Few of the 'elitists' implied by you or mentioned in your links refer refer to 'giftedness' anymore because the term was elitist. Programmes like CTYI has helped lead people to understand that all children have talents. So the term Highly Able or Talented is used now but you seem unaware of this. The system is getting better, not in spite of CTY but because of it.

by LaurenJ Mon Mar 12, 2007 00:32

I just read over my last - it sound like a twelve year old wrote it, though I meant every word. Sorry, Im usually articulate, but when Im angry grammar goes out the window. Lets look at the thing logically.

CTYI is hugely expensive to run - no one who works for it is "lining their pockets".
CTYI would be far more expensive without the goverment funding - which they fight for every cent of.
CTYI is a necessary service.
CTYI awards scholarships where it can for people with financial difficulties.
CTYI is entered based on SAT scores (because the program originated in America as "CTY")
SAT scores are a basic and reliable measure of academic ability, however if the SATs are not a suitable measure for an individual, such as a dyslexic child, entrance can be arranged by a meeting with the site director.
CTYI instructors are not qualified teachers.

Those are the hard facts. Heres the truth.

ctyi is not something for rich kids to boast about - most ctyizens are from middle class families going to public schools, and would barely admit to their closest friends that they spend their summer in nerd camp.

ctyi is the kindest, most integrated place ive ever been in my life.

if we had MORE funding, people wouldnt have to pay so much, dont you see?

ctyizens are often TERRIBLE at school in general. among ourselves we call it the centre for troublesome youth, or the centre for traumatized youth. its a joke but theres a grain of truth there. many ctyizens also have psychological or emotional problems, because we have spent our lives not fitting in, not being understood.

heres the biggest truth of all:

we need this. please dont even talk about taking it away because we couldnt cope with that. we really need this.

by LaurenJ Mon Mar 12, 2007 00:08

CTYI is the bare minimum of help and support that the government throws to us, the ignored children of Ireland. Huge amounts of your tax money go to the academically challenged, early school-leavers, underacheivers. thats as it should be, because much help is needed there. But the academically gifted suffer too in the "education" hell holes of this country. the government thinks they can just ignore us, throw us a bone and well be fine? the isolation, the bullying, the boredom, the frustration, the wasted talent, thats all going to be ok, because were the "smart kids", who can somehow cope with it? Ctyi is not an "elitist summer school". its a haven, a safe place for children who otherwise might never feel free or understood, run by people who care deeply about us. and dont forget the scholarships that are awarded both for merit and for straitened circumstances. ctyi is needed. it is as necessary as a hospital or a prison. without it, many of us couldnt have coped with our lives. i couldnt have coped with my life. i would fight for ctyi, defend it to my last breath. defend our right to freedom and happiness. dont speak of what you dont understand.

by Skanger Pride Mon Dec 04, 2006 14:04

Pierre Tristram voices his concerns about gifted education at the following link.

by Cormac Sat Nov 11, 2006 18:57

So the main problem seems not to be the fact that they exclude people on the basis of a test but that the department of education doesn't subsidise it enough for it to be affordable to everyone who could go?

by Skanger Pride Thu Nov 09, 2006 15:29

An interesting discussion of the issues.

by Neurotic Tendencies Wed Nov 08, 2006 22:10

Should we pay to have Gaeltachts? Why should a language be cherished more than talented children?

It's gross insult to some of my friends, particularly the ones who could not go on holiday with their family for it. Or another friend who could only go with the aid of grants from her local VEC. Or another friend who worked over the summer to pay back the money to his parents.

That article is just another acid-test of the "them vs. us" mentality, that the CTYI attendees are the sons and daughters of highly wealthy and accomplished people. Why don't you look beyond the €80,000 which does so much good to both rich and poor who attend it? For what it's worth, there are no class barriers within CTYI. And a lot of those people who go, really strive to get there.

They don't bust their backsides getting there to be branded elitists. Mabye you should try to get the full picture before writing with the proverbial tar brush. Courses like these do a lot of good for so many people, who can have a hard time in school, if nothing else.

CTYI is not about money. There are far easier ways to earn money. That €80k is cherished both by staff and the students. With the costs involved (particularly paying the disgrace that is the DCU canteen which costs roughly €500 per student for less than 3 weeks.), it is a vital grant.

by Skanger Pride Wed Nov 08, 2006 17:05

To quote "PurpleFistMixer" from the "Nerd Camp" discussion on your section of boards.ie:
"It is elitist. : p A camp wherein, to get in, you have to pass a test?
Whether or not the people who go to the camp are elitist is debatable, but the concept itself sounds a bit."

That is one of my key problems with it - it does not have an organic connexion with the community, but is separate from it.

The fact that the funding is relatively small compared to the overall education budget misses a crucial point - some of that money would do great good in schools that are crying out for funding. I include a link about school crises. These children are in danger of failing academically - I don't mean getting a low grade, I mean not even getting a Junior Certificate and having literacy problems.

by CTYI Pride Wed Nov 08, 2006 15:00

According to the Book of Estimates, spending on education by the government in this country for 2006 is expected to total roughly €7.2 billion euro. Billion. With a 'B'.

€86,000 is not a sizeable chunk out of this for a nationwide programme (offically for 6 to 16 year olds) whose students over a 12 month period number several thousand.

For claiming that they are hothousing students with well-paid teachers who could be used in secondary schools: you'll find very few if any of the staff involved in teaching in the CTYI programme are teachers. Many of the Teaching Assistants are indeed students from St. Pat's who find the experience valuable when later seeking placements. They receive minimum wage for their time and are not paid for every hour that they work. The summer full-time staff on the 3-week course get paid (very little) for about half of the time they spend working.

CTYI aims to provide a different approach to education and a fresh learning experience to MANY types of gifted youths. Some children have Aspergers, Autism, severe Dyslexia, Dyspraxia etc. In the classes involving the younger children, these students often make up a sizeable portion of the sudent body.

The main problem detractors from the programme usually have is the cost. Students up to the age of 13 can also partake in courses which cost from €10 a week. That's the price of a packet of cigarettes and a pint. A cheap pint. On-line and correspondence courses are also available. These too are not €1200. Perhaps a navigation of the program's website (http://www.dcu.ie/ctyi) would avoid one looking immediately for the worst-case scenario.

Finally, as an ex-student and current staff member of CTYI, I find it very disheartening that someone who clearly has very little knowledge of the nature of the program would take such a negative view of something which in the last year I have seen put smiles on the faces of hundreds of young people.

And indeed, on mine.

by CTYI Parent Tue Nov 07, 2006 09:29

As a parent of an intellectually gifted child I can only say that without CTYI my teenager would be impossible to live with! From being bored and unchallenged and bullied in primary school, at age 10 he was accepted into the junior CTYI and found an outlet for his insatiable thirst for knowledge and study, and got to meet other children like himself. Now he is confident, outgoing and happy, has the challenges that he needs and can learn a wide variety of subjects in an environment that is tailor-made for those with ability.

I'm brining up three children on my own, but find the fees for CTYI manageable and the courses and opportunities the programme offer are certainly worth every penny. All parents who take an interest in their children's development are happy to pay for the things that are needed - be it CTYI, Samba Soccer, Dance classes or music lessons, and I would say that I spend as much money on extra-curricular activities for my other children over the year as I do on sending my 'gifted' child to DCU in the summer.

As for the Government giving grants to the programme - It is essential that a nation encourages its brightest and best as many of the children of CTYI will go on to be the scientists, business managers, teachers and leaders in their fields of the future. Governments support all branches of education from preschools to universities, and CTYI is just one of many ways to help the young people of the country fulfill their potential.

Before you write about something in future, try a little research and don't be exposing your ignorance and bigotry.

by CTYI student Fri Nov 03, 2006 15:10

This article reeks of contradictory statements! Firstly, the writer mentions the fact that 'large' amounts of money are being taken from 'working class' tax payers to pay for an 'elitist summer school'. I myself are from a working class background, and attend CTYI. Without the government's subsidiary, the course would cost around €3000, which perhaps understandably, we could never afford. With the payment by the government, it now costs €1200 (a year ago it was €900), which although is still a considerable amount in our eyes, is a lot easier to pay. Without the government's assistanance, I wouldn't be able to attend. So quite frankly, the author's point of view is complete rubbish. It is because of this money that the working class are able to attend. (Although in fairness, the organisation is made up of largely middle class attendees)

Secondly, I agree with the above statements that the government must care for all its nation's needs. Would the author dare condemn the government for taking 'working class money' to pay for remedial schools? Would he/she state we should not pay any money towards these schemes in case those darn middle-class snobs dare attend? Of course not. In fact, Ireland has one of the worst records in the EU for looking after its most intellectually abled students, with not one actual full-time education system for them. We should encourage programs like this, not taking away from them. Me thinks the author has prefered to stir bitter controversy rather than to use some common sense.

by comma Tue Oct 31, 2006 20:33

Both staff and student s of CYTI tend to lower -case everything. a lorra lil (((i))).
It is either the same writer or the rebellious truly do like to break the rules.

You go girls!!!!

by ex-staff Tue Oct 31, 2006 19:16

as someone who has previously worked for CTYI in a number of capacities, i'd just like to point out a number of things.

the idea that the cost makes it socially elite, if you can back this up to any extent, is unfortunate. However the running costs of CTYI are ridiculuously high, and as such subsidisation is needed in an effort to allow it to be there.

The idea of CTYI is to assist those who are above the standard intelligence level for the education system, much the same way remedial teaching exists for those of a lower standard.

at this, I must say it suceeds. for those of you who are opposed to "gifted education", would you similarly be opposed to remedial education?

oh, and for the record, not much of that cash drifts down to the staff. I think the summers and springs work that I have done there previously is the worst paid i've ever been since I started working at all.

by Viv - CTYI Tue Oct 24, 2006 19:39

well everone, thanks so much to the people who think that CTYI is worthwhile!
i am currently a pupil of CTYI and I love it. If only you knew how good it is, you would be sorry for writing those stupid comments! its really exciting! you get to make new friends and get a chance to study interesting subject! as for the people who think that we're all snobs, well think again! we are just normal teens & kids who are talented at certain subjects. everyone knows that youre never perfect, ( i am terrible at certain things!) , everyone has their own talents. the irish system isnt equiped to deal with all the talents............................... but thank God for ctyi!

by CTYizen Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:30

ok, so i'm a member of the Centre for Talented Youth and this argument/discussion/whatever is making my head spin.
Get over the jealousy guys, you weren't there so it doesn't really affect you, especially if it didn't exist whilst in your teens.

by Yardstick Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:56

No right-wing agenda is discerned in CYTI.

The issue is of access.

The issue is of cherishing the children of the nation equally.

The issue is of lack of equality of resource and parity of esteem.

(and a Little jesting at both the SAT system and the aspirational class)

Some are more equal than others.....

by Former CTYI Student Tue Oct 24, 2006 01:05

Firstly, AOT that you refer to above mention CTYI on that page, recommending them for children, and stating their strong links with them. I was originally referred to CTYI through one of the explorer clubs they mention. However, I assume that you dismiss such clubs as elitist too, as they also charge to cover their costs.

I wonder if you also object to the nurturing of talent where it presents itself in other areas, or is it merely academic education you object to? For example a soccer or basketball camp with a minimum standard of skill to attend, or art classes which require portfolios for entry? If fees of some sort were payable, would these too be unacceptable right-wing efforts to bring down the working classes?

I feel I should reveal a little of my own background here:

1. From a political standpoint, I would consider myself in general left wing in my outlook, particularly with regard to the environment, to the point where I would happily crash the economy into the ground to avoid further damage to it.

2. I was educated entirely through the public system, and I loved it, despite occasional boredom.

However, I don't see anything wrong with CTYI. The people involved are not attempting to push some rightwing agenda. They are essentially providing a summer camp not unlike many others, different only in that it has an academic content. In fact, there are other camps with such content (or were when I was that age), the difference is mainly the pace at which CTYI moves. I stress again that the fees are not there as some attempted social screen to keep people out. They are there because costs must be paid.

So, is what you would like to see fundamentally the shutting-down of the programme if it were not available to all? If so, I fail to see any benefit to anyone.

by Skanger Pride - Too drunk to stand Mon Oct 23, 2006 20:53

"Not all children are as gifted as others, and as one of the other posters said it is very difficult to get through secondary school, if you are not at the right intelligence level. So many people in CTYI related this experience to me, and there is no other facility in Ireland that attempts to tackle this."

Really? What about AOT? (I provide a link.)

by Skanger Pride - Totally sozzled Mon Oct 23, 2006 20:50

"Its actually amazing how little you've researched this. Its unbelievable. Your "presumption" that Mary Hannify never visited the course is wrong. She visited this year."

My mistake.

"Were you the type of person who bullied kids in school because they got good grades?"

No - I was labelled "gifted" in primary school and was involved with an organisation that dealt with "gifted students" at a primary school level. (This was many years before CTYI.) I have since rejected "gifted education" and embraced views that some of my classmates in secondary school held - that "gifted education" is about snobbery, not academic achievement. It took me many years to get to this point - only five or six years ago I still believed that some good might come of "gifted education".

by Yardstick Mon Oct 23, 2006 20:33

What yardstick for academic achievement was used by CYTI to enable enrolment?
(excluding mENSA) and was told that the enrolment system is based on test results based on the US
SAT system.

Which is a funny measure- and only good for taking the piss of- witness: The Simpsons.

(do not giggle- Homer Simpson was used as a model for 'everyman' in relation to Joyce's Ulysses
In College , by Declan Kiberd)

Apparently the hardest thing a man has to do in his whole life is live with a woman.

I can hear the groans of assent from miles around Dublin.....

by Skanger Pride - Sozzled Mon Oct 23, 2006 20:24

I thought CTYI was based in Ireland, with mostly Irish pupils? How does the US system enter into it apart from a few US pupils and the use of the SATs?

by Skanger Pride - Where's me tinnie? Mon Oct 23, 2006 20:22

"I can't believe how badly-researched this "news" is!"
It's listed under "opinion/analysis", not "news".

"Apart from the glaringly obvious omission of the scholarships"

If you read the comments made by the person who started the discussion on boards.ie you'll see the following comment:
"Oh yes, I know about the CTYI scholarships, but if any of you have ever achieved one, then you will know that only 50% of your fees are paid, even if you are in the top 5 child-prodigies in the country. And then you need spending money and food money and so on on top of that."

Now maybe the scholarships have changed since then - I see there is some information on the CTYI site regarding fees and scholarships:
http://www.dcu.ie/ctyi/talent/t_search.htm
http://www.dcu.ie/ctyi/summer/fees/f_struct.htm
http://www.dcu.ie/ctyi/talent/ts_scols.htm

Now there's some more information to base a discussion on.

"do you think that when deciding whether or not to fund it the government got together and said "let's foster giftedness in those who might otherwise neglect it and oppress the peasants at the same time! sure 'tis killing two birds with one stone!" "

No, I don't. I do wonder if someone from a poor or ethnic minority group might have the same chances to enter it, assuming similar scores on the SAT.

I am no conspiracy-theorist - I've noted a leaning to the right by some advocates of gifted education:
http://www.geniusdenied.com/Articles.aspx?ArticleID=46
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Nicholas_Col...ngelo
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=John_Templet...ation
The Templeton Report is funded by the right-wing Templeton Foundation

Madsen Pirie, advocate of gifted education:
http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/archives/cat_education.php
Note that he's involved with the "Adam Smit Institute". Wonder what their politics are?

by Yardstick Mon Oct 23, 2006 20:21

The CYTI enables its providentially wealthy pupils through the US systemisation known generally
to us plebs as the SAT system. Nothing wrong in that- we are afterall breeding whole rounded Renaissance creatures and there are many yardsticks by which to measure talent, for those who have the luxury of thinking about and paying for such things.

Unlike the people who are deprived through war/exclusion and poverty. We should therefore be grateful
that CYTI exsists and that their ex-pupils are such social luminaries and contributors to our
highly developed society wherin the very, very poor get the milky porridege (from the nuns) and the second hand shoes of the middle classes and the very , very wealthy can discuss ways of improving through such ideas as universal health insurance/privitisation and generally endemic corruption.

Ex students of CYTI are possibly right now- formulating political idelogoies that will address the educational disparities and unfairnesses in our unequal society- we await illumination.

Yardstick was educated by the State and does so to his/her kids. Both of whom are highly talented, easily bored and generally annoying.

by Skanger Pride - What's organisation? Mon Oct 23, 2006 19:44

"I went to CTYI and I loved it. I was miserable in secondary school, bored with the subjects, and had few friends to boot. In CTYI I studied fascinating subjects, like those that are studied in college, and I made lots of friends. It changed my life and I owe alot to it, without it I wouldn't have bothered trying to get into college. It was, without doubt, a force for good in my life."

Good for you - but what's the bigger picture? How did your schoolmates fare? Did they suffer the same boredom - if so, how many made it to CTYI?

by Former CTYI Student Fri Oct 20, 2006 02:44

I have not attended CTYI in several years, but I will attempt a response.

-First, in response to the above: What yardstick would be used to measure academic intelligence? Well, the one used by CTYI is the SAT, as used by American colleges to determine which students they will accept. I think that since my time, an essay has been added to the entry requirements. If you score above a certain mark, you are allowed to attend.

-Possibly greatest misconception here appears to be that you believe CTYI to be in some fashion profit-driven. If I recall correctly, they make a loss on every single student that attends, at least they used to.

-Furthermore, you speak of teachers being taken away from the public education system. In my numerous years in CTYI, I was never once taught by a qualified second-level teacher. Students? Yes. People working in the sector in question? Yes. Teachers? No. Oh, to point out the obvious, the courses are held at weekends and during the summer. These are times teachers usually have free.

-Subjects taught in CTYI, with a very small number of exceptions, do not appear on the second-level curriculum. We did not gain an edge by attending.

-You speak of kids finding their own answers. The media have circulated a lot of things about CTYI, most of which are misinterpreted or misrepresented. Among these is the notion that the classes taken are much like those taken at second-level. This is not true. The closest thing I have seen to them is a third-level tutorial. There is discussion and problem solving, and in general an atmosphere of equality, and that views should be listened to and considered.

-If I understand you (and correct me if I'm wrong), you seem to be proposing that this
service should be made available to all. If what you mean is that anyone could take the courses, without some sort of entry tests, that would be exceptionally difficult. The courses are structured and paced based on the assumption that the students can learn very quickly, usually without the need for multiple examples and repetition. In certain subjects, the equivalent of a college semester or more of work is covered in less than a month. If (as I hope) you are speaking about permitting admittance regardless of economic background, then I believe that nothing would please the administration more than to have the funds to permit such a thing. However, since their government grant is (when compared to their costs) so small, this is not possible. They do their best by offering the service to those who can afford to pay the majority of the cost, and partial scholarships to others. The alternative would be not to provide the service at all.
-Finally, the camp is not an academic "hothouse". Around half the day is playing sports, playing games or participating in drama. The social element, as anyone who attended will tell you, is by far the more important.

Well, that was longer than I intended.

by Masseuse Thu Oct 19, 2006 21:42

By what yardstick would ye measure academic intelligence?

(and I don't mean 'Mensa').

by Johnnie Talented - Reality Thu Oct 19, 2006 21:36

Disclaimer: I love CTYI

CTYI is an opportunity for students of most abilities to become educated in subjectwsw which are not offered elsewhere, in an excellent environment. Every year it deal with THOUSANDS of students, that is in their Saturday courses, summer courses and correspondence courses. Although there is an academic requirement for entrance IT IS NOT an especially high standard and many students of various abilities and backgrounds participate.

Whoever started the thread is a jealous troll.

Goodnight

by Artemis_Gwinhilda Thu Oct 19, 2006 21:28

My family wouldn't consider ourselves middle-class and I've attended CTYI since I was ten. And yes, it does cost a lot, about as much as the fees for going to the Gaeltacht or a language course during the Summer. Therefore, we know conclusively that the cost is there not out of elitism but because things COST MONEY.

All children are gifted? No, all children and people are equal and just as worthy as the other, but some people are more academically intelligent then others, some can run faster then others, some can sing better then others, that's just life. CTYI facilitates those with above average academic ability.

What's this nonsense about it not being available to all classes, races, creeds etc.? I have never heard anything so ridiculous! I actually couldn't think of a place where people are integrated more.

I should be articulating my points better but my head isn't working right at the moment, so I'll repost this later.

Question; why are the author of this article and the other person supporting him not rebuking any of these arguments?

by Donall Wed Oct 18, 2006 22:45

Its actually amazing how little you've researched this. Its unbelievable. Your "presumption" that Mary Hannify never visited the course is wrong. She visited this year. I'd hate to see the country run by a jealous and narrow minded person such as yourself, and thankfully, it never will.
Were you the type of person who bullied kids in school because they got good grades?

by CTYI'er Wed Oct 18, 2006 21:28

"all kids are talented and should equal rights to education- simply applying
scholarships to the notion of giftedness is not enough."
Not all children are as gifted as others, and as one of the other posters said it is very difficult to get through secondary school, if you are not at the right intelligence level. So many people in CTYI related this experience to me, and there is no other facility in Ireland that attempts to tackle this.

"good teachers are getting large salaries to hot-house young kids,thus depriving
the admittedly flawed state sector..."
CTYI is not deseigned to train you for the leaving cert. It teaches no leaving cert courses, or leaving cert techniques, it is an oppurtunity to learn for the sake of learning.

by giftedorcursed Wed Oct 18, 2006 18:54

I had the dubious fortune of being "gifted". I had a measured IQ over 150. I endured an education where i was isolated, rejected, always feeling that there was something wrong with me. I found school tedious and uninteresting. As a result of this, I ended up being punished and gained bad learning habits and an aversion to school which later led to truancy. As a result, I never fulfilled my academic potential and suffered from isolation and depression. Looking back it seems like I was much more sensitive, felt things more deeply and as a result suffered more than those around me. The busy mind has a tendency towards neuroses and ties itself in complicated knots over things. Not much fun.

Later on in life, i was encouraged to take an IQ test. At this point I had very low self esteem and it took some convincing for me to agree to it. I qualified for Mensa membership where I met a lot of interesting people with whom i seemed to get on. Apparently many of them had similar experiences to myself, and some of them ended up in remedial teaching classes.

No child with potential should have to go through this kind of experience. If I had been subnormal, there would have been resources to accomodate my unique difficulties and no one would be complaining about government money being spent on those and rightly so. Much of the time, teachers did not know what to do with me. The handed me another book to read when I finished the one everyone else was still working on and mistook my boredom and restlessness for insubordination, were defensive and resorted to punishment far too readily. This isolation and punishment cycle had a lasting and very negative effect on my life.

I rarely mention my membership of Mensa to anyone as it is like saying you have a social disease and people get very defensive and nasty about it. This comment is unusual in that respect but it is anonymous and perhaps it might be consoling to someone in a similar position to mine so I am making an exception. Mensa is essentially a social organisation and it serves a valuable purpose and has helped me to meet like minded people that I had something in common with.

Whilst I agree that organisations like the one mentioned in this article should not exclude poorer people if they take government funding (I was poor too), Let us not, on account of a few money oriented bad apples, reject the special needs of those children who are clearly a little unusual and often have a difficult path through life.

There is still a need to cater for the special needs of gifted (or perhaps cursed is a more appropriate term) children and these needs are not just academic ones. In fact academic pressure is often part of the problem. These special needs are not catered for under the current system.

Mensa as an organisation, is not exclusive in most respects. It charges a small fee each year for membership and it is reduced or waived in the case of financial hardship. People from all walks of life are welcome. The only barrier to entry is an IQ test which costs very little to take. It removes many social barriers for the one universally attainable barrier it puts up.

There is a need for support structures for the gifted. Perhaps non exclusive summer schools where gifted children can meet and socialise with others like themselves, places where they can stretch themselves, fit in make friends and not feel like there is something wrong with them. These schools should accept children from all walks of life and not just the wealthy.

Let us not throw out the gifted baby with the bathwater here.

To be honest, I wouldn't wish "giftedness" on anyone, especially in our current society

here is a link on the subject
http://www.stephanietolan.com/is_it_a_cheetah.htm

by Masseuse Wed Oct 18, 2006 16:45

Yes- I do actually have a problem with the globalised culture of US benefaction.

But not with rights of access for the disabled.

And your parents should not have to scrape together the few grand for CYTI- many
kids, all kids are talented and should equal rights to education- simply applying
scholarships to the notion of giftedness is not enough.

good teachers are getting large salaries to hot-house young kids,thus depriving
the admittedly flawed state sector...

by caats Wed Oct 18, 2006 16:44

I can't believe how badly-researched this "news" is! Is that your best source apart from the oireachtas debate - a thread on boards.ie ? Apart from the glaringly obvious omission of the scholarships,- the implications of classism - do you think that when deciding whether or not to fund it the government got together and said "let's foster giftedness in those who might otherwise neglect it and oppress the peasants at the same time! sure 'tis killing two birds with one stone!" Wow congratulations on uncovering this scandalous conspiracy!!! Maybe you can start attacking kids who are adopted by parents who happen to be wealthy next, obviously the adoption agencies are part of a right-wing conspiracy.

by CTYizen Wed Oct 18, 2006 16:02

CTYI offers scholarships to students that are incapable of attending due to finanial backaround.
my parents are far from wealthy but recognised the importance it would have on me as a teenager developing thus found the spare few grand to send me there.
if you have a problem with the Centre for Talented Youth does that mean you've got a problem with other such ventures, like, for example the Special Olympics???

by Masseuse Wed Oct 18, 2006 15:49

Fascinating- now ask yourself the question- should the service you so
adequately enjoyed be enjoyed in the financially deprived secondary
education sector?

Should it be available to every child, to open upo the mind and the world
of education- instead of the mundane and boring approach to the drone
creation that is currently available to the mass of the population?

And ask yourself, how many within the ranks of the classes were from
socially deprived areas, migrant/refugee/unemployed?

CYTI - is about money and access, or is it about availibilty of resource to all
if it is not getting pupils from a wide demographic with the ethos of
equality of access to all people regardless of race/class/gender then it is
quite simply a middle-class tax write-off and panacea for ego.

by CTYI'er Wed Oct 18, 2006 15:18

I went to CTYI and I loved it. I was miserable in secondary school, bored with the subjects, and had few friends to boot. In CTYI I studied fascinating subjects, like those that are studied in college, and I made lots of friends. It changed my life and I owe alot to it, without it I wouldn't have bothered trying to get into college. It was, without doubt, a force for good in my life.

by Skanger Pride Thu Oct 05, 2006 21:04

The Department of Education and Science partly funds the centre - this quote from the extract from the Acrobat file in the original posting makes that clear:
"Minister for Education and Science (Mr. N.
Dempsey): The Irish Centre for Talented Youth,
CTYI, provides services for the parents of high
ability children aged eight to 16 years and the
children themselves. As the centre contributes to
the development of the potential of individual
pupils, my Department makes an annual subvention
to CTYI in recognition of its ongoing work
in this area. The subvention in 2004 amounts to
\86,000. Due to immediate commitments I do not
have any plans to visit the centre in the short
term."
(The "\" should be a euro sign.)

I notice that he declared that he had no plans to visit the centre - good planning on his part, as the publicity for the visit would lead some to question the reasons for the centres' existence. (I presume Mary Hanafin didn't visit either.) He seemed to think that the centre was a good idea - big mistake!!

The rest of the funding comes from an anonymous American donor - I have no idea who that is or what benefit they get from it.

by Skanger Pride Thu Oct 05, 2006 18:52

I just came across this link that I think explains some of the broader issues concerning "gifted education".

by Masseuse Wed Oct 04, 2006 16:16

I was saying that it is something to bandy about to massage the fragile ego
of the parent who needs that kind of societal affirmation. As to 'bright' kids
I have met many , many kids and they are all bright-some extremely so.

The spectrum by which the monied would measure it is a rigorous tool,
tool being the operative word, they are probably damaging their kids by
putting them in these little boxes and allowing the agenda on what is
essentially hot-housing be set by others.

Now the others- Who finances the hot-house, what benfits do they reap apart
from the obvious fianancial ones?

Simple questions.

'Academic' achievement and points etc are a moveable feast, its about
social conditioning and 'acceptance' and its really lame. Kids should be let
find their own answers-

by Skanger Pride Wed Oct 04, 2006 15:01

I think you're agreeing with me - I prefer to state things rather plainly myself. I'm not sure what you mean by being "beaten up in the hothouse" - if the hothouse is CTYI, then I agree - CTYI and places like it are not cures for childrens' cruelty. If it's a metaphorical hothouse, I'm not sure what you mean.

I'm reluctant to label children as "bright" or "not bright" - different children have different skills in different subjects. I have no problem with having "honours" or "pass" versions of courses as it is possible for a child to move to the "honours" course as their skills improve.

Places such as CTYI claim to be giving opportunities to those who would not flourish without them - the high cost of the course gives the lie to that.

by Masseuse Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:22

They can go down the bridge club and say
"Rodney, of course is a member of this centre"

This creates a gleam of jealousy and a market for getting the
positive societal affirmation you crave so readily, when the cattle
bars on the front of your SUV aren't so shiny anymore.

It is palliative and operates by word of mouth, it replaces the
need for valium/coke/vodka or whatever they are using now to
alleiviate the nagging voice that rationalises the unfairness in
society and separation from community behind the walls
and electronic gates.

There is only so much blonde in a bottle, tan in a tube
and vodka in the bottle they have to have something to
talk about. you can tell a really bright kid by the look in
their eyes-not needing the teat provided by these
businesses- how sad.

The kids probably get beaten up in the hot-house- kids will be kids afterall.