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Derry Anti War Protestors Occupy Raytheon Plant derry |
anti-war / imperialism |
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 Thursday August 10, 2006 13:35 by By Stander
 For anybody looking to emulate free Derry, "there's always Shannon to be getting on with."
On Wednesday 9th August Anti War protesters in Derry stormed into the local plant of US missile manufacturer Raytheon. They were protesting against the use of Raytheon technology by the Israelis and used by them in their attacks in Lebanon. IMC Blogger: Both the IAWM and AWI issued quick statements of support as part of the ongoing rapprochement that is within the anti war movements on Indy these days. It should be remembered that Derry is the birth place of the black shamrock, whose powerful images owe much to the campaign against Raytheon. If this spreads south, maybe war will be an election issue as PANA say, or maybe the spirit of direct action will move to Shannon, where apparently that type of stuff could have a legal defence. Either way, can the fine media makers of Derry make sure to keep us all informed. Raytheon Coverage on Indy
On Wednesday 9th August Anti War protesters in Derry stormed into the local plant of US missile manufacturer Raytheon. Raytheon are the largest missile manufacturer in the world. Raytheon technology is supplied to the Israeli government. The campaigners were protesting against its use by the Israelis in their destruction and killing in Lebanon.
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Comments (127 of 127)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127Re the last photo above, I looked it up on a Google search and it appears that CMMI stands for Capability Maturity Model Integration.If you go to http://www.sei.cmu.edu/cmmi/presentations/kitson-laspin...4.htm you'll find a slide show of 43 pages regarding this. Drawn up by Carnegie Mellon University's Software Engineering Institute (Pittsburgh). Mostly gobbledegook, but a few interesting points.
Well done to everybody involved in yesterday's action. Solidarity from Dublin! Anti-war activists in Cork also send their solidarity and best wishes.
Your action was an appropriate and tangible act of solidarity with those suffering daily bombardments in Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine and Afghanistan. It also exposes the extent of complicity in Ireland, both north and south.
It is important also that we encourage trade union activists and the general labour movement to be more proactive on these issues. I suspect the impetus will have to come from the rank and file, but it is crucial that the trade unions take a stand against these vicious wars in solidarity with their brothers and sisters in the Middle East.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings folks but the document shown in the picture doesn't proove anything.
Spud is correct about CMMI. It is an industry-wide standard used as quality benchmark against which software projects are measured - think of it as a sort of British Standards Institute for people who write software. All the above document shows is the names of some of the bigger companies and organisations which were involved in developing it over the last 10 or so years.
Think of it this way. You go in to buy a TV in a shop. You ask how good the quality is. They tell you it complys with British Standards Institute level 1001, 1002 and 1003. They then show you a list of big company names who helped develop those standards so you can be impressed that Sony, JVC, Sanyo, etc all collaberated to make sure they all develop great quality products. Basically its a marketing gimmick.
Sorry if I burst anybodys bubble but I seldom pass up the chance to be a smart-arse (they are so few these days!).
An international standard for weapons of death and destruction, an international trade and an international customer base with an insatiable appetite for the weapons and the bloodbaths they cause. Charming!
Raytheon derry does civilian projects--specifically radar and shizzle for international airports--Beirut actually amongst them, so while you have targetted the correct company, you have created distress for derry workers on civilian projects and as such i believe you will recieve your just rewards from the judge, maybe you should target the close working partners as well :
University of Ulster Magee Campus and Queen's University on research and development, recruitment and employee development
doubt it ehh...
Well not quite Spud.
The standard itself is general - it has nothing to do specifically with producing weapons. It can be used for everything from say, a small applications to do office accounts to large applications to run say, run a multi-national banks financial systems.
How the end user chooses to implement it is up to them. Most of the companies on the list above have no link with the arms trade and don't produce weapons. They just colaborated in order to produce standards that would allow them to produce quality software.
Certainly Carnegie-Mellon (no relation by the way) is not defence oriented.
You can no more blame them for how Raytheon use their software development standards than you can blame NIE for Raytheon using the power they produce or BT for how Raytheon use their phone lines.
I wish to call upon David Trimble and John Hume to hold a closing ceremony, as soon as possible, for Raytheon in Derry. This should be welcomed as an authentic act of repentance for their role in opening this franchise for one of the largest arms corparations in the world.
Raytheon has nothing to do with any sort of peace process anywhere. Failing to do this Mr. Hume and Mr. Trimble should give serious consideration to returning their Nobel Peaxe Prizes, as soon as possible, to restore credibility to the award.
These clowns have probably been influenced by the recent acquittal of the Plougshares in Dublin. Obviously many on the Left in Ireland now think the green light has been given to all and sundry for attacks on American property throughout Ireland. No doubt companies like Intel, Dell and Microsoft will be next on the list as these all supply either hardware or software to the American military. However the Left should curb its jubilation and think for a moment. First, when these defendants come to trial any representative jury in Northern Ireland is likely to be far less supine and far more practical than the one in Dublin. They are likely to judge the defendants on the basis of what actually happened (criminal damage) and not indulge in jesuitical mental contortions about whether or not the defendants thought they were morally justified. Second, even in the Republic the public only tolerate these juvenile left-wing agitators as long as they inflict no damage on the economy. If this provocation continues then, sooner or later, some American company is going to pull out of Ireland and cite the failure of Ireland to defend American property from being criminally damaged as the reason. When that happens the Irish State, with the full backing of the public and all major political parties, will come down like a ton of bricks on these vandals. Don't say you weren't warned.
http://perth.indymedia.org/index.php?action=newswire&pa...24970
Johhny baby,
Give me a clown any day over an apologist, like yourself, for the assassins of the children of Iraq and Lebanon.
Give me a people like the New Zealanders who stood up to the Yanks in the '80's over nuclear bombs being brought to their country. They first stood up to them in the kayaks, surf boards and dinghys with nonviolent direct action until their government banned such warships. They stood strong in face of all the fears and anxieties that you try and conjure now. They stood up against the cynicsm of the Aussies (ALP Govt) who tried to bully them. Kiwis emerged from the experience of defiance to the U.S. war machine a more maturer nation for it.
Johnny you wold like us to live like you, live half a life muted, castrated and partitioned in the face of imperial power killing children in Lebanon in Iraq with components manufactured in a gobeen free state with no independent foreign policy and a thriving U.S. base at Shannon.
Sorry Johnny, life is too short to live/slumber on as you suggest. We aren't scared of your fears, your cynicsm, your cops, your jails or lack of access to the U.S. imperial trough.
Watchyagonnadonow Johhny, that we ain't scared.
Have you got enough cops and army to secure Shannon, Raytheon, DDC in Cork et. al against the nonviolent wave that's a coming?
This gobeen free state you refer to is also nuclear free moron. As far as complicity goes, who made that mouse on your pc? In fact who made your PC? your clothes? your furniture? you can bet your sweet ass that something you have in your possesion --that you can see right now is made by a corporation that has something to do with arms production, be it metal fabrication,software, components etc etc
Unless you live under a rock you 2 are complicit my little friend, denying it is just self delusion, you do live like USA, you live in a capitalist society and dont you ever ever forget it kid, now go watch tv and wonder who provides the satelites, take a flight and ponder who provides the parts,servicing of that glorious plane you sit in, right down to the paper you wipe your arse on kid, you are complicit in every way
your just to dumb to even realise it
Fair play to all who moved in on Raytheon, just heard 9 have been remanded in custody for a month. If they dont get bail sombody tell them to aplly to get on to wings roe 3 & 4 in Maghaberyy for the duration, theyll get a good reception there, again fair play to them.
Here here!
- actually a good basis for a bit of a campaign right there
Krossie
ciaran: Raytheon has nothing to do with any sort of peace process anywhere. Failing to do this Mr. Hume and Mr. Trimble should give serious consideration to returning their Nobel Peaxe Prizes, as soon as possible, to restore credibility to the award.
You say "Give me a people like the New Zealanders who stood up to the Yanks in the '80's . Kiwis emerged from the experience of defiance to the U.S. war machine a more maturer nation for it.". Actually, if you check your facts, you'll find that New Zealand sent sixty or so troops to Iraq in 2003 as part of the American-led liberation force. That is more than Ireland did. There are more than enough cops to protect American property in Ireland. Twenty should be sufficient as that's about the number left-wing protests can muster.
Because if we are born into a society that we don't agree with it is our duty too change it. Unless we are all to go live in the woods, where no doubt we would be moved from for making an illegal encampment, we have little choice but to try and live in society. A responsible citizen is one who tries to change the society they live in. Now give us a break from your sychophantic PD tripe. Just because we all live under capitalism doesn't mean we're all complicit. Some of us are trying to do something. Now you go back to your TV and let the people who give a shit get on with their quest.
Don't the employess know how this is how arms dealers work... while they pretend not to see
A project for the supply of civil aviation radar system at Beirut International Airport recently has been awarded to Raytheon. A Lebanese/ German joint venture group for the development and rehabilitation of Beirut International Airport. The Beirut port directorate invited forty prequalified companies to bid for the first phase of four-phase project for the rehabilitation and development of Beirut harbor. The European investment bank will provide USD 55 million of financing for part of Beirut harbor rehabilitation project. The total cost of the project is estimated to reach USD 126 million. Rehabilitation of Beirut costal highways and the highway from Beirut to the Syrian border have also been awarded.
SHAME THAT THEY ALSO BUILT LEBANONS HIGHWAYS AND CIVIL AVIATION RADAR SYSTEM AND PORTS EHHH.....
WELL I SUPPOSE THEY CAN RETENDER NOW
The act of decomissioning of the Raytheon factory was in keeping with the growing sense of outrage felt by people all over the world at the daily war crimes being committed by Israel, with the material and moral support of the US and the complicity of Britain. I am humbled by the courage of the people involved and hope that such deeds are replicated around the world. I am astonished however by the condemnation by Mark Durkan. What have we become in Ireland when even social democrats laud an economy based on the perversity of turning ploughshares into swords.
You have to give the devil his due. Those folks at Raytheon have one great business model/
.
1) Sell a shipload of civilian radar equipment to Beirut Airport
2) Sell military hardware (or software) to the Israelis and wait for them to blow the shit out of the place
3) Sell a shipload of civilian radar equipment for the reconstruction of Beirut Airport
4) etc etc
If I wasn’t bothered so much by my pesky conscience Id put all my money into Raytheon shares!
Lets face it, our politicians including the santified SDLP and Shinners don't want to see the Raytheon software house closed down as by doing so it damaged the local economy and puts other big companies off coming here. As for the others, well the DUPers and other Unionist parties, well I don't think I need explain their views on the subject. Software seems to be a growing interest in Derry and the powers-that-be won't like seeing that upset.
At the end of the day, the sad fact is that money talks, ethics walks and the majority of our "leaders" will do what is best to keep the money coming in. Therefore I fear that an example will be made of the Raytheon 9 in order to try and ensure that this type of thing doesn't happen again. Also to ease the fears of other big companies, like Du Pont, who are also involved in manufacturing for the military. The corporations have this country sewn up and they can influence the average joe in the street, our local and national government and our judicial system.
As regards Raytheon going, well I am sceptical about that. This has now become political for them. If they close the Derry office then they leave themselves open for repeat performances at their other facilities the world over. Computers and desks can be replaced, buildings can be repaired and fortified. Hell, their insurance will probably mean that they end up quids in. Most likely they will dig their heels in in an attempt to ensure that this doesn't offer hope or inspiration to other campaginers around the world. I fear all we have done is throw 9 good people to the wolves.
"Hell, their insurance will probably mean that they end up quids in"
Insurance my arse
The UK taxpayer will have to cough up every penny wait and see
Sinn Fein comment on the case.
Speaking after the Court appearance of nine people following the protests held yesterday at the plant in Springtown Sinn Féin Councillor Maeve McLaughlin said,
"There is a justifiable anger across Ireland at the ongoing Israeli aggression in Southern Lebanon and the slaughter of hundreds of innocent civilians. This anger has manifested itself on peaceful protests in every major town and city on this island. Sinn Féin have joined with other progressive opinion on this island on such demonstrations and will continue to do so.
"While supporting and understanding absolutely the motivation behind yesterday’s protest at Raytheon, I believe that the decision to destroy equipment actually took the focus away from the purpose of the protest. Rather than the focus now being on Raytheon and the carnage in the Middle East it is on the damage carried out by the protesters.
"I do not believe that holding those arrested in custody serves any useful purpose. I call for their release. I would also appeal for people to maintain pressure on the Israelis and their allies through peaceful and dignified protest.
"Sinn Féin has consistently called for an end to the occupation of Iraq, Palestine and Lebanon. We have expressed our position directly at the highest level of government and oppose the establishment of the weapons manufacturing industry in Ireland and the use of Irish bases as a stop over for USA warplanes and weapon systems going to the Gulf and Israel. We have and will continue to raise these concerns not only with both the Irish and British governments but also with the US Administration."
"Springtown Sinn Féin Councillor Maeve McLaughlin"
She wouldnt be anything to Mitchell McLaughlin who was (much to my enjoyment it must be said) booed off the platform at the Anti Bush protest outside Hillsborough a few years back
I work in the other half of the building that houses Raytheon. (Not a factory, as such). Greeted on arrival at work yesterday morning with showers of falling paper and computer parts, front door in smithereens, looked up to see faces I knew doing the business. Escorted round to the side door by uniforms. Complete overkill with 80 cops and I counted 15 police vehicles hanging around all day (doughnut and coffee consumption very high). We were prevented from leaving the building at all, many of the smokers got so furious about not being able to get their nico fix they swore to storm Raytheon themselves - luckily they were then let out a side door, under escort, to have their puff. A persistent and well-attended demo on the corner of the street was constantly hailed with car horns, we heard that all day as well. My employers carried on regardless, even when the cops moved in in their riot gear etc. to evacuate the protesters.
This morning Raytheon did indeed look truly decommissioned, no cars in their car park, nobody at work.
Well done FEIC and DAWC.
"many of the smokers got so furious about not being able to get their nico fix they swore to storm Raytheon themselves"
Now that would have been worth seeing
Not even Raytheons own products could have saved the place then :-)
"While supporting and understanding absolutely the motivation behind yesterday’s protest at Raytheon, I believe that the decision to destroy equipment actually took the focus away from the purpose of the protest. Rather than the focus now being on Raytheon and the carnage in the Middle East it is on the damage carried out by the protesters.
"I do not believe that holding those arrested in custody serves any useful purpose. I call for their release. I would also appeal for people to maintain pressure on the Israelis and their allies through peaceful and dignified protest."
You couldn't make this stuff up. SF are now opposed to non-violent direct action. The focus of who exactly is now on the "damage caused by the protestors" and not on the Israeli slaughter in Lebanon. I would hazard a guess that those in the media who have traditionally ignored the plight of the Palestinian and Lebanese people will continue to ignore it. Surely the purpose of the protest was to highlight the role of the arms trade in Ireland in the slaughter of innocent in the Middle East. There are many many people who were unaware of this trade prior to this direct action. Surely its a positive thing that they are now aware of it following the protest. I would have thought SF would have called for similar protests against other companies operating in Ireland and for an end to companies in Ireland supplying imperialist war machines. Oh yeh and the Israeli's are going to be influenced by "peaceful and dignified protests" apparently! Good night .
Yeah Mike, sadly you're probably right.
Nice to see the sinners doing the old verbal 2 step. They are so adept at trying to keep everyone happy these days. We condone the occupation of Raytheon but we also condemn it. Jesus I'd hate to ask them if they preferred tea or coffee.
LMAO at the smokers. Worse than being trapped in a bag full of angry cats. No wonder the cops had the riot gear on. I wonder if the Raytheon 9 adhered to the no smoking in the building policy?
"booed off the platform at the Anti Bush protest outside Hillsborough a few years back"
I was there. :-)
"I wonder if the Raytheon 9 adhered to the no smoking in the building policy?"
Not when they burned the US and Israeli flags.
No, Maeve Mclaughlin is nothing to Mitchell 'Neoliberalism' McLaughlin, although the leadership does keep a tight reign on her too; but that's authoritarianism for you.
What a f***ing watery statement! Nothing about the policy Derry City Council was forced to adopt in January 2004 in the light of the publicity about Raytheon's Derry plant's involvement in the development of software for military use. Nothing about the policy supported by SF to:
" declare our opposition to the development or production of weapons or any software whose end use is a military application and if that is shown to be the case at Raytheon in Derry then Council’s position will change [to making Raytheon unwelcome]."
Nothing about the signed affadavits, given to and still held by the Derry News, from former Raytheon employees testifying to the fact that they had worked on Transponders for military planes, ASTOR (a targeting system for attack aircraft) and other military end-use software. Nothing about the bullying and intimidation of these employees so that they wouldn't do interviews or meet politicians.
Instead there is a vague reference to opposition to the "weapons MANUFACTURING industry in Ireland" [my emphasis], in other words Raytheon's, the DUP's and John Hume's line that sofware is not really all that bad, while they and other councillors continue to court and reassure Raytheon that they will continue to give them cover.
No condemnation of Raytheon, anywhere, but an attack on the tactics of the protesters ; one that is barely discernable from the SDLPs and even the DUPs statements in content.
At a time when SF could be giving the lead in galvinising support for the protesters when they need it most, and in breaking the arguments of the Nationalist and Unionist right, using their organisation and the energy of their activists to begin a real grassroots fighback accross the whole of Ireland, what do they do? run for the cover of their neoliberal paymasters.
SF have been outflanked again, on both their republican and their left sides. Talk to any activist who hasn't got a cushy job and they will tell you that their authoritarianism and opportunism has turned the air around them stagnant. Is it any wonder their membership is haemmoraging?
Sure it's only Software, what harm could it do Maeve ?
f*ck militarism and f*ck electoralism, there's only one way to get things done
Those of us who love peace and non-violence and want to end war forever are making a mark in many different ways. Michael Bermingham, Caoimhe Butterly and Kathy Kelly give quiet and powerful witness in the war zone, marchers and protestors give witness on the streets and outside embassies, those who are useful in crafting words or music give support by writing and making music, the Pitstop Ploughshares gave strong and powerful witness, putting their freedom on the line big time by decommissioning a plane at Shannon warport, the Derry nine have now put their freedom on the line also by decommissioning Raytheon. All of these actions are making a difference. All are important - and the war mongers, the war-lovers and the war profiteers know that. Non-violent action, in its many different forms, has become a powerful force for good.
Because I believe that Raytheon is an integral part of the arms industry and therefore responsible for the killing and maiming that is happening in so many places around the world, because I believe that property is not more sacred than humans, especially when the property in question is used for the killing of humans, because War and Violence have prospered in so many places due the opposite belief - namely that possessions and property are more sacred than humans - and because Raytheon's existence in its present form nurtures and is nurtured by War and violence, I support this action of decommissioning in Derry
I call for the immediate release of the nine. I also call for an investigation into the workings of Raytheon including an investigation into the end receivers of the materials they produce.
For too long war has been accepted as inevitable. The accepted culture has been one of war. Not any longer. An Irish jury found the Pitstop Ploughshares not guilty of criminal damage without lawful excuse - and they did it unanimously after sitting patiently in court for three weeks to hear the evidence, the reasons and the justification. That was a moment of greatness, a ground-breaking decision, a watershed in Irish jurisprudence and in the history of non-violence.
The United Nations (would you believe it) named this decade as the Decade for the Culture of Nonviolence for the Children of the World. They named it and went home. The children of the world have got much suffering, maiming and death from their Decade. Because the war-mongers and their allies in the arms industry were more powerful than the whole community of Nations.
What these nine have done has given a new impetus to the anti-war ethos and to the culture of non-violence in Ireland and in the world. Well done
Wasnt that long ago the Republican Movement blew up those that supplied the imperial British war machine in Ireland. Patsy Gillespie anyone? Put Eamonn and his merry band of Computer Wreckers in the hapenny place. Maybe that forgot to tell Maeve about that. Clear case of poacher turned game keeper me thinks.
**And Feck the SF statement, (who crawled up that arse?)**
Maybe SF could mitigate the statement by joining with the 'opposition' to demand a condemnation of the war . (like fun- neither the opposition nor the State seem interested in global political issues)
Day 31: of the illegal incursion into the Lebanon and no word of condemnation
from the puppet government in Dublin.
Last evening Israel announced that it would hold back on the ground offensive, thus delaying the promised 30 war. thus preparing us all for an emergency UN dealy.
"While supporting and understanding absolutely the motivation behind yesterday’s protest at Raytheon, I believe that the decision to destroy equipment actually took the focus away from the purpose of the protest. Rather than the focus now being on Raytheon and the carnage in the Middle East it is on the damage carried out by the protesters."
What a load of shite the above statement from Sinn Féin Nua is. Indeed, the focus is not solely on any fucking equipment that was destroyed (it's yourselves alone that has the focus problem), I certainly wasn't up all night shedding crocodile tears for the destroyed equipment. The focus is clearly on Raytheon and the products of war it creates and without this action occurring, it would have not drawn in such an audience and we would be none the wiser of Raytheon. This Company and its equipment (which ye care so much for) is contributing by the products it creates to the slaughter of innocent civilians. Any company whose main objective is to profit out of the tools of war it created, should be condemned and shut down without delay.
Isn't it ironic, that a company like Raytheon, involved in profiting out of the tools of the war trade was given the go ahead to set-up in Derry as a reward for the 'peace' process - those Financial Warriors, Mr. Hume & Mr. Trimble (Men of 'Peace' mo thóin!), hailed and rejoiced this US arms and weapons manufacuturer arriving in Ireland, because they were both more interested in the economy and job creation than peace in the wider world and, therefore, I think it appropriate at this time that these Men of War should be ordered to return their Nobel peace awards immediately!
So does this mean that Sinn Féin would say the following about the Pitstop Ploughshares protest at Shannon in 2003 (the one they were acquitted on by a unanimous jury decision).
"While supporting and understanding absolutely the motivation behind yesterday’s protest at Shannon, I believe that the decision to destroy equipment actually took the focus away from the purpose of the protest. Rather than the focus now being on the US military and the carnage in Iraq it is on the damage carried out by the protesters."
Same difference?
The pressure is working. The global outcry over this crisis has pushed the Ambassadors to the UN Security Council to work around the clock to achieve an immediate ceasefire.
The latest word is that the Council may be close to a final vote today or tomorrow, but we've been this close before and negotiations have fallen apart. We need more pressure now to close the deal.
Please spread the word to your friends, family and colleagues, post a link on your blog, bring up the campaign in discussions, and urgently encourage people around you to join this global wave of protest by signing up at the link below:
http://www.ceasefirecampaign.org/mo/en.html
Hey john, I can sense and appreciate your frustration but please don’t be thoughtless as your emotions trip over themselves. The vast majority of people who have been involved in direct actions across this island don’t fall for dumb down anti Americanism as you seem to suggest. In fact many involved in dirext action would your definition of them as being of the Left somewhat secondary (or non applicable) to their being active agents in the creation of the society they want to see.
‘Obviously many on the Left in Ireland now think the green light has been given to all and sundry for attacks on American property throughout Ireland.’
There is a world of difference in attempting to disrupt or discontinue the production of military infrastructure, and hating Americans. I mean this would mean that irish peace activists would hate American peace activist. Sorry if this seem a bit primary school but thought id make it as simple for you as possible
‘No doubt companies like Intel, Dell and Microsoft will be next on the list as these all supply either hardware or software to the American military’
If these companies do contribute to the production of, and profit making, from military infrastructure then many they are next in the line but there are other candidates for attemtion around the country too…see below
“however the Left should curb its jubilation and think for a moment. First, when these defendants come to trial any representative jury in Northern Ireland is likely to be far less supine and far more practical than the one in Dublin. They are likely to judge the defendants on the basis of what actually happened (criminal damage) and not indulge in jesuitical mental contortions about whether or not the defendants thought they were morally justified”
OOOPs again you seem to be missing some very elemental points dear john. Ya see, there was no ‘criminal damage’ at Shannon. The jury said so themselves. Now im sure that if the jury had of been made up of similar likeminded people to yourself, sure ya might have given out a public flogging and thrown away the key afterwards. So perhaps your understanding of ‘people’ in the glorious ‘Republic’ isn’t as complete as you think .....maybe too much time in front of all those monitors eh?
“ When that happens the Irish State, with the full backing of the public and all major political parties, will come down like a ton of bricks on these vandals. Don't say you weren't warned.”
MMM? I wonder does this have any more relevance than someone saying, for example,
when people finally cotton on the empty rhetoric of electoral parties, that are reduced to the role of tinkering technocrats, when people see that democracy lies in their hands only when they grab it, when they see that the state and neo liberalisms lifeblood is based on inequality, social injustice, control of our collective resources and production, when we spend most of our lives in shite jobs making rich folks richer ( OH BONO Wheres your taxes gone…click...every three seconds a rich capo f**k exploits this system to f**k over our growing underclass…click)
When people realize that the elected parties fear that people can self organize, stand up to the criminal injustice system, and take inspiration from each other and from the long history of peoples struggling to over come institutionalized inequalities..(including capatilism ( hence the qualified statement from SF). When people feel in their bones that it is grassroots democratics that will futher evolve our collective communities, and when these are more than mere words because we live it…….then “with the full backing of the public” there just might be a few bricks going the other way….
“Don't say you weren't warned.”
List of Irish Companies Involved in the Arms Trade.
As identified in the Links Report
ADTEC TEORANTA /TIMONEY HOLDINGS
Gibbstown,
Navan,
Co. Meath.
Managing Director: Professor Eanna Timoney
Timoney has a technology transfer activity whereby it licences production to major international arms companies like Vickers in Britain, Beherman Demoen in Belgium and Teledyne Continental Motors and Rockwell corp. both in the US. Professor Timoney was at one time involved at Alvis (the UK manufacturer of light tanks and personnel carriers) in the development of the armoured Saracen and Saladin range. Deliveries of the Timoney armoured personnel carrier (APC) began as early as 1978 to Belgium. Timoney are also involved in the development of independent suspension for heavy vehicles and has a contract with the American multi-national Teledyne for its further development.
"We do the design and prototype work in Ireland and the production is done by the likes of the Australian or US militaries".
Mr. Neil Murray, Company spokesperson, Sunday Business Post,
ANALOG DEVICES B.V.
Limerick
Military targeted products account for 10% of their market. As long ago as 1983, an article n Magill magazine revealed how Analog in Limerick was producing components for US fighter aircraft and the British Ministry of Defence.
ASSMAN ELECTRONICS LTD.
Ennis,
Co. Clare
The company complies with MIL/ STD (military standards- are manufacturing approvals, rather like ISO that meets rigorous specifications for the demanding requirements of the US armed forces. They are issued by the US Department of Defence and confer on a company the approval required to offer specific goods with possible military uses)
BEFAB SAFELAND LTD.
Bay c15/16,
Shannon Free Zone,
Shannon,
Co. Clare.
Befab (Ireland) is listed in the International Defence Directory and the Irish Trade Boards Directory of Aerospace Companies. Military- related products offered include - 'Runway arrestors capable of arresting the full range of military aircraft'. The company supplies airforces' world-wide.
CHEMFAB EUROPE LTD.
Clare.
Chemfab listed some of their military-related products as communications antenna, radomes and circuit board substrates. In the Irish Trade Boards Dictionary of Ireland's Aerospace Companies, British Aerospace is named as one of the companies major clients/target group.
DATA DEVICE CORPORATION (DDC)
Cork.
On August 11 1990,several newspapers reported the establishment in Cork of a factory that would produce military-related components. The Irish Times article was detailed and left little doubt that an Irish based manufacturer was intending to make products for the military market abroad. DCC's products can be broken down into three main categories: data convertors, data -bus products and custom hybrids. Many of the products are used in aerospace applications. Controlling flap positions on jet aircraft is a typical application for data convertors. Data bus products are a vital part of the modern military aircraft. The most widely used standard for military buses is the Mil-Std-1553 bus devices and DDC claims to be the largest supplier worldwide of 1553 bus devices. Other DDC hybrid products are used for applications in missiles, radar, sonar, secure communications and night vision equipment. John Gaskin, European sales manager for DDC, admitted that some 25% of the components produced in Cork would find their way to military contractors. Despite local TD Deputy John Dennehy expressing his opposition to the pant if it produced military components, the company's plans met with little resistance. According to the British Defence Industry Digest, in 1994, DDC's Cork Science and Technology Park Plant received full MIL-STD-1772 certification, which allows it to sell military-screened products for both EC and US military programmes.
ESSCO-COLLINS
Kilkishen,
Clare.
Essco-Collins is a joint Irish-American company specialising in 'Radomes'- protective covers for the antennae systems used in air traffic control, weather systems, communications and air defence radar. The parent company has exported 700-800 Radomes all over the world - 25% of them built in the Irish plant in the tiny Co. Clare village of Kilkishen. The parent company has also 80% of the world market in Radomes. Some previous sales include China, a deal worth IR£800,000 in 1979 and a Mexican deal for IR£110,000 in 1979. The Mexican airforce is said to have bombed Chiapas in January 1994. Egypt supply of radar domes for the country's airports and military bases. A spokesman for the company confirmed that the military market accounts for about 20-25% of the Irish firms business. Some recent military deals include: a IR£2 million deal with the Australian armed forces in 1991-1992; again in 1994 a deal with UK manufacturer Matra Marconi, that was destined for Australia; a contract for the Finnish Defence Ministry - an order that was bound for the Saudi regime's air force. Five years ago as part of 'Peace Shield' deal, via US arms giant Boeing; another military order for the Middle East, through the French military electronics giant Thomson CSF; an order for an Italian firm, Alenia, that was destined for Turkey's armed forces. In the Irish Trade Board's Directory of Aerospace Companies, the UK Ministry of Defence is named as one of Essco-Collins' major clients/target group. M/A-COM
EUROTEC OPERATIONS
Youngline centre,
Pouladuff Road,
Cork
Produce RF/Microwave signal processing hybrids for commercial, industrial and military applications. Military related sales include RF/IF Mixers for Thomson, the French state-owned military Electronics Company, tactical radio.
MOOG LTD. (IRELAND)
Cork
Regarding MOOG INC. (US) 'In the US Moog makes defence control systems for B2 bombers and for a range of missile systems'. In International Defence directory, 1994, Janes Information Group, Moog Ltd. (Ireland) is listed in association with 'gun stabilisation systems', turret stabilisation systems' and electrical equipment for wheeled armoured vehicles. In the course of AFrI's investigation a company spokesperson confirmed that the Irish plant makes electronic controllers for a range of main battle tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and anti-aircraft guns in Europe and the US. Examples include; Germany's Leopard 2 Main Battle Tank (MBT), Swedish CV 40's and the Bofors L-70 Air Defence Guns. The Indonesian armed forces are known to possess Bofors L-70 guns. Moog received a IR£4.4 million grant from the IDA in 19?? As part of its expansion programme.
WESTINGHOUSE ELECTRIC SYSTEMS & LOGISTICS LTD.
Bay 132,
Shannon Industrial Estate,
Shannon,
Co. Clare.
Exhibited at IDEX - an international conference and exhibition devoted to electronics technology for defence applications 21-23 Sept 1987. Products listed in IDEX catalogue include MIL_STD_1553b Bus analyser. (Datacomms test). Data bus products are a vital part of modern military aircraft. The most widely used standard for military buses is the Mil-Std-1553 bus devices. (See DDC above)
UNITRODE B.V.
Ennis,
Co. Clare
According to the Bord Trachtala booklet, one of the firm's target markets is the military. The plant is qualified to release production under US MIL-STD-19500.
SCHAFFNER INTEPRO SYSTEMS LTD.
Limerick.
Schaffner's products are used for testing power supply units (PSUs). Customers include Royal Air Force, Boeing and British Aerospace. Target Market includes the military. Company response: The technology that is universal and its application ranges from home computers to major telephone exchanges, to hospital/university applications, to testing power supplies for controlling the safe landing of an aircraft. I am not aware of our goods having a military classification; indeed our goods are universal for general industrial use. Yes our products have applications in aviation and yes the aircraft could be civil or military…. Aviation / Aerospace is a very small proportion of the total PSU Market and consequently of our market for PSU Testers. Yes the RAF is a customer. I do not have direct knowledge of the RAF's operations, however I am aware that our products are used for testing power supplies to the very aircraft providing long range/air sea rescue off the west coast of Ireland.
WESTERN AVIONICS
ShannonFree Zone
Clare.
MIL-STD 1553. 'Target Market' includes military and commercial aerospace. Company response: The company's products are used to test data-bus platforms. MIL-STD 1553 is widely used in commercial applications. Some of the firm's customers are military.
KENTREE LTD.
Kilbrittain,
Co. Cork.
This company has exhibited at the Copex Arms Fair for many years. The Copex Arms Fair has been described by CAAT (Campaign Against the Arms Trade) as "a market place for electro-shock batons and other torture equipment". In the 1993 Copex Catalogue, Kentree Ltd. Was described as follows: Kentree Ltd. Has been designing, manufacturing and marketing hugely sophisticated remote control equipment for over a decade. The equipment is also utilised for nuclear facilities and search and rescue operations. In the 1994 Copex Catalogue the piece was changed to read: Kentree is an industrial partner in the design and manufacture of equipment for the police, military and nuclear markets.
hey all. i'm across the pond in the u.s. in the same state as the raython head quarters. y'all rock my fucking world. the kids over here are in solidarity with your actions and it rejuvinates us. i feel like a fucking cheerleader. but i guess that's what i am in this context.
The 9 are charged with offences under legislation which was introduced at the same time as the infamous Diplock courts, where there is no jury and "justice" is administered by a single judge. This led to the "conveyor belt" system of justice that led to the H-Block Hunger Strikes in 1980 and 1981.
I have just heard that all 9 protesters got bail. Great news!
Hope to hear McCann speaking at the Belfast rally tomorrow.
Well done to those involved. More of this sort of thing! Reading through the comments I noticed some fairly weird side-issues with people trying to claim that e.g. "Certainly Carnegie-Mellon (no relation by the way) is not defence oriented." in this comment:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77825#comment162870
While in fact Carnegie-Mellon is so well-known for its whoring for Department of Defence contracts (especially its Software Engineering Institute) that activists refer to it as "Carnegie-Military University". http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/19/1525206
So, Carnegie-Mellon counter to the claim made by Marty-Mellon is completely "defence oriented" (maybe he means they're actually attack oriented?). The idea that they can't be held responsible for the deaths of people when they make software (and other stuff) that is specifically for killing people is non-tenable. Same thing goes for Raytheon. Good on the protestors that exposed these murder-merchants.
2006 Belfast anti-war group exposes the bloody truth of Thales Air Defence war profits
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/75707
2004 FEIC protests Raytheon weapons used in Fallujah:
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=68079
2003 Bloody Sunday Relative to take part in protest walk against Raytheon and the Fallujah massacre.
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=47413
2002 Direct Action Against Derry Merchants of Death:
http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=2702
There was an imminent threat on Wednesday 9 August. Jim Labour MP Jim Sheridan resigned as defence parliamentary private secretary over Blair’s Middle-East policy. The Guardian of the same date carried a story, ‘Angry MPs demand recall of parliament’, stating that
Up to 100 MPs, most of them Labour, are to demand an immediate recall of parliament to debate the crisis in Lebanon because of growing fears about the government's strategy.
The call is expected to come in the next 48 hours and its organisers have been in discussion with the Liberal Democrat and Scottish Nationalist parties. Negotiations are also under way with campaign groups backing the call for an immediate ceasefire that attracted the support of 200 MPs.
Meanwhile some voices from the Christians in Palestine and Lebanon were starting to be heard (even if very faintly). They seemed to be supportive of Hamas and Hezbollah – which does not really fit in well with the Bush/Blair line that what’s happening is caused by an ‘Islamist’ ‘ideology’, (as opposed to the occupation of Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, etc.) – unless, of course, people like the Anglican Archbishop of Jerusalem (see link “http://www.j-diocese.com/DiocesanNews/view.asp?selected=234”) is an Islamist. It hardly seems likely. In short, there seemed a real possibility that sanity would breakout, that Parliament would be recalled – maybe even that Blair would be toppled. (Comrade McCann and co were part of this ‘imminent threat’, but with greatest respect, perhaps not the most significant.). But, surprise, surprise, before the Duma could be recalled, the news broke of a dastardly plan to burn down the Reichstag. Blair thanked Bush for the tremendous US help in discovering this evil doing (though Pakistan seems to have been more significant than the US). Bush calls it an ‘attack on the US (despite the fact that what the psychos behind this idiocy wanted to do was bring the planes down not over the US, but in the middle of the Atlantic so the cause of the explosions would go undetected, meaning that it could be repeated again). Now this plan was not ‘discovered’ on Thursday or Wednesday, it had been known about since last December, but it is very handy to have a tame terrorist plot, an Ace up your sleeve, to produce when the going gets though. Result? The situation has been totally depoliticized. Lebanon disappeared from the news (temporarily – it’ll be back) and Hamas and Hezbollah, who are legitimate resistance movements, could be lumped together with Al-qaeda (who are a psycho outfit resembling an Islamic version of a cross between the Baader-Meinhoff and the US bible belt anti-Darwinists). The Christian fundamentalist also believe the end of the World is coming (and not through Global Warming, but by God, be gob! Read a bit about them here “http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020701/story.html”.
What wonderful rhetoric! Obviously not your own. What book in the dentist's waiting-room did you pinch it from? "When people realize that the elected parties fear that people can self organize and take inspiration from each other and from the long history of peoples struggling to over come institutionalized inequalities..(including capatilism). When people feel in their bones that it is grassroots democratics that will futher evolve our collective communities, and when these are more than mere words because we live it…….then “with the full backing of the public” there just might be a few bricks going the other way….blah blah blah... You've omitted a few things from your list of 'whens' - like 'when pigs fly'. So you're going to overthrow capitalism when you grow up? You can't even spell it, let alone overthrow it. But, never mind, it will all be put to the test in the election next year. Let's see how many votes the pro-capitalist parties get and how many the anti-capitalist parties get. If the latter get more, I'll come and lick your ass.
(^not strictly true^)
Amnesty’s concerns over Irish-made components of Israeli Apache helicopters confirmed
These helicopters are supplied to Israel by the US, and are used in attacks on Lebanon and Gaza. The report says that Boeing confirms that the “data bus” component, manufactured by DDC Ireland Ltd and described by the company as the "lifeline" of the Apache, is supplied to US Boeing for incorporation into the Apache.
DCC Ireland Ltd Cork Business and Technology Park Model Farm Road Cork
http://www.ddc-web.com/profile/ireland.asp
http://assurantsolutions.com/ireland/map.html
Loss of 39 jobs at DDC Ireland in Co Cork > No protestors to blame. Who is to blame.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0718/jobs.html?rss
Response to comments by John
You're right about the next election. The pro-capitalist parties will get more votes than the anti-capitalist parties.
But I think you are wrong in your earlier comment: "When that happens the Irish State, with the full backing of the public and all major political parties, will come down like a ton of bricks on these vandals. Don't say you weren't warned." And in general, you seem to misunderstand the motivation of many anti-war activists and their supporters.
I am a member of the public and I wouldn't be swayed from my support for the Pitstop Ploughshares or the Raytheon 9 if American companies pulled out of Ireland or if it started to hurt me financially. You don't seem to really understand what principles are about. I and a lot of people I know who hold anti-war principles wouldn't let the economy change their minds. Many anti-war activists and other type of activists I know aren't that interested in money. We cycle instead of having flash cars. We work part-time to have more time to do things we believe in. I wouldn't have an alarm on my flat because I don't have any consumer goods worth stealing. We wear second hand or old clothes ( I make my own). We try and grow some of their own food (I am involved in community gardening).
I've noticed a big overlap between the people who are involved in anti-war activism and the people involved in 'Critical Mass', Community Gardening, alternative living, GM Free Ireland etc. Therefore, I think you misunderstand many of the supporters of people who take direct action when you say they would change their colour if the multinationals pulled out. It's not the economy, stupid!
i give up. your right. Capitalism is here to stay, exemplified by the steadily decreasing percent of the population turning out to vote, once every 3, 4,or 5 or so years. To express thier opinion and desires for their own lives, for their kids futures, by putting some numbers beside the names of some candidates taking up about 2mins of thier time (not including transport to and from the polls). It great that we have to take so little time out of our lives to have our voices heard eh? So glad that is sorted out so much. I mean a country with so many millionaires leagally paying bugger all taxes jus has to be in tip top for what old bean.
Voting for the parties that really dont have the ability to make systemic change, and in fact voting for candidates that for the most part will have fuck all input into policy decsions. This is why Fianna Fiall ministers had an emergency meeting with thier party back benchers. Noel dempsey himself saying on Newstalk when asked about the reason for the meeting, very openly decribing how policy is defined in detail(where the devil is), without the involvement of the representative of the vast majority of the population, even those within thier own party. Not a very democratic way of deciding 'really important issues' you'd have to agree. Sure im an anti capitalist, but the problems of our 'democracy' isnt just the economic system, but the piss poor mechanisms of decision making.
Though you have really raised a very important point. i mean can you just imagine if during the election we had the biggest turn out ever because - only join your piont was'nt that valid at all dude. Trolls are dull. If i though that you where sincere about what you are saying i might try and engage a lttle deeper but for now i think your online persona doesnt excite me that way - offer of anal attention aside but im even choosier in that dept.
Anyway, when your or some other bunch of folks are willing to organise an explicitly and open pro capitalist event of any kind.......mass rally, march, pub quiz, or pillow fight please please do let us all know. really i mean it. im sure the turn out for such an event would be enough to dispell us of our illusion that our present world, regional, national and local are institutionalised inequality, at that all we need is that trip to the booth ah yes,,a soothing and fulfilling experience just like a 16 year old guy with a pocket full of euro coins in good ol Amsterdam.
Personally i think most pro capitalists dont have the neck to stand up and be counted publically. bit of stigma attached to it these days but like i say its just an idea. sure its all very easy to try and judge it by the elections but perhaps we should pick an day when pro and anti capitalists should bring there supporters on the street. could be quite an enlighteding experience for all involved dont ya think. perhaps a public debate on the merits of the pro and anti stances then a few pints in the Boars head eh?
What specifically though is it about more effective mechanisms for democracy and local control that you have such a combative response to anyway...
To the (anti) Raytheon 9:
This is a brief message of solidarity. Solidarity, solidarity and more solidarity to you! I am very grateful for your courageous action which will lead to an exposure of truth (i.e. what is Rayheon hiding?) along with saving the lives of innocent people whom Raytheon's parts tear apart.
You were not merely 'sharing an office' you work directly for Raytheon. This is what outsourcing is all about companies removing their need to employ people directly so they can avoid responsibility to them and to what they do. Classic. You've indulged in it.
(And perhaps CSC is actually part or wholey owned by Raytheon)
http://www.nsd.ie/htm/news/news.php3?issue_date=2000-09-21
CSC working on Raytheon confidential projects.
It is interesting to compare his perspective with another recent arrival across the border in Derry. Raytheon Software opened its Northern Ireland software centre last April at the city's science and technology park. It now employs 24 people and a similar number are working on the premises for its subcontractor CSC. This centre is relatively small for a corporation with 4,000 computing staff. But software engineering manager Jay Shapiro aims to make it stand out by seeking a high rating under the Software Engineering Institute's Capability Maturity Model. The centre is offering its services to sections of Raytheon that do not want to entrust confidential projects to contractors outside the organisation. There are also plans to take on outsourcing work for companies in Ireland.
I see from the news Gary Donnelly who stood as an independent republican candidate in the last council elections was one of those arrested along with a cuple of other 32csm members .
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/69501
Nice piece of co-operation there . Sinn Feins pious statement on the affair was toe curlingly embarassing in the face of the slaughter of the Lebanese people .
"You were not merely 'sharing an office' you work directly for Raytheon."
To whom are these remarks addressed?
If to me, following my comments from the "office next door", then you are incorrect. I work for an entirely different company unconnected with Raytheon. The two companies happen to rent space in the same building, from a third party.
Interesting things going on there today.
If those remarks were not addressed to me, ignore the above.
Well what can I say, I have been an S.E.A supporter for a while now and this last action has now made me change my mind. I can understand they think they have a reason to be unhappy with Raytheon but to do it in the way they have brings them down to the level of the other thug like parties in Northern Ireland. I for one do not believe they are a credible party after this.
Anon - Are you Maeve McLaughlin in disguise?
Lol, sorry to dissapoint but Maeve McLaughlin and her ilk are the level to which the S.E.A could sink to if they keep employing these methods of protest. So no I'm not ..... I can take it you really like Maeve then?
Surprisingly, Republican Sinn Fein has remained silent on the Raytheon affair.
Composite Testing Laboratory (CTL) was established in 1997 within N.U.I. Galway as part of a materials development project with Airbus U.K. (BAE systems). In July 2003 CTL announced a major contract with BAe systems. According to the CTL website, Bae systems delivers major structures for the primes which include Airbus, Boeing, Raytheon, Cessna and Lockheed. CTL's C.E.O is Dr. Conchur O Bradaigh. CTL claims the contract is for the 'civil' aerospace industry. CTL also does work for Hexcel, a U.S. company with 50% of its business with the U.S. military. Realistically civil use cannot be separated out from military applications when the companies involved are war industry companies. O Bradaigh runs a company which provides support to companies manufacturing imperial products of death and destruction. CTL is partly funded by the Irish Government. The Irish taxpayer is funding the Anglo-American war machine.
What is the difference between Raytheon in Derry creating software for the war machine, and CTL at Galway University, under the leadership of a leading member of Republican Sinn Fein, doing research on materials for Raytheon?
Maybe, RuairI O Bradaigh, President of Republican Sinn Fein, and father of Dr. Conchur, would like to comment?
A Brief History of Those Who Made Their Point Politely
and Then Went Home – Kevin Higgins
On this day of tear-gas in Seoul
and windows broken at Dickins & Jones,
I can’t help wondering why a history
of those, who made their point politely
and then went home, has never been written.
Those who, in the heat of the moment,
never dislodged a policeman’s helmet,
never blocked the traffic or held the country to ransom.
Someone should ask them: “Was it all worth it?”
All those proud men and women, who never
had the National Guard sent in against them;
who left everything exactly as they found it,
without adding as much as a scratch to the paintwork;
who no-one bothered asking: “Are you or have you ever been?”
because we all knew damn well they never ever were.
http://www.salmonpoetry.com/theboy.html
"While the troubles were in full swing, how come these wonderful individuals never bothered smashing up Sinn Fein or UDA offices, eh?"
In my humble opinion, I would say that the Irish people did not smash up the Sinn Féin's offices at the height of the modern troubles because they did not regard them as the enemy. The British invasion of this island and their brutal murderous campaign in Ireland since 1169 was the enemy. Just as Israel's murderous campaign on the Lebanese and Palestinian people and the USA's unjustifiable invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq is the enemy of all right thinking people.
Remember, when the British military invaded this island in 1169, they attacked, plundered and ethnically cleansed, confiscated lands of the native Irish and planted them with English settlers and set-up religious divisions (that never existed before 1169), murdered thousands of Irish civilians and brought in diabolical laws to deny them jobs, housing and the practising of their religion and native culture - very similar to what Israel is doing in Palestine, and what the US (with their British lackey) is doing in Iraq (setting-up religious divisions).
In modern times, from 1969 onwards, the Irish people of the North suffered inhuman degrading and barbaric treatment at the hands of the British invaders when they showered them with a hail of bullets and murdered them when they set out on peaceful civil rights marches and protests, until people came to the conclusion that all future attempts at peaceful marches and acts of civil disobedience and unarmed resistance would be suicidal (incl. acts of civil disobedience on the offices of the UDA).
So, in conclusion, Sinn Féin's offices were not attacked at the height of the modern troubles because they were not the enemy. British imperialism is the sole enemy of Ireland and the cause of such insurmountable grief and turmoil from 1169 to this date, their continued presence today on this island is unwanted and unjustifiable and unsustainable.
Well done to all who participated in this action against Raytheon, my hearty congratulations to you all.
Comhghairdeas libh!
Síochán leat.
Why oh why must every person with a half-baked opinion come across so disgustingly arrogant when they disagree with somebody???
Yeah just wondering how the "anti-capitalism" issue sneaked in? I myself do not have a problem with a healthy system which rewards those who wish to "succeed" but the problem is that it segregates those people who wish to live a different way. Democracy?
Anyway it's hard to make your voice heard with the din of stupidity muffling reason and rationality all day long. If in fact the company is responsible for the manufacture of weapons systems etc why is it so surprising that people should have a problem with it?
Excessive profiteering is completely uneccessary and when that profit is the result, at least in part, of dealings in items relating to the arms industry....
I mean am i just naive or is having an anti-war stance the standard practice? And by that i mean that it's the peferred choice of any rational person.
Serious point here, A supporter of SEA considers himself normal?? and then is turned off by messy DA? And then we have the normal non-politcal citizens of derry who get turned off aswell. Back to writting letters people.
Far from anyone in the SEA being put off by the actions at Raytheon, the entire left, as well as the anti-war movement, in Derry has been completely re-invigorated by the events. We are all having a great time, finally feeling that we have been able to do SOMETHING in response to what's happening in the Middle East.
To M.A.
"Interesting things going on there today."
Go on, spill the beans. What is going on?
Do tell!
A SCOTTISH electronics factory producing guidance systems for "bunker-busting" bombs used by the Israelis in Lebanon has upped its security amid fears that its workers are at risk of being attacked by protesters.
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1178112006
In this article it mentions attacks on staff numerous times and mentions attacks on equipment once. The staff may feel threatened but they have not being attacked or being the aim of protests. Hopefully they will feel more uncomfortable about who they wor for.
Protest on going at RAF Brize Norten Middenhall and RAF Prestwick.
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/08/347824.html
I want to offer my support to the Raytheon 9. And frankly I'm disappointed by the lack or support and wealth of criticism. Please rememeber that these people have taken great risks with their own freedom in order to highlight a cause that they feel incredibly strong about. There are not many people selfless enough to do such things these days including myself.
So before you add your jibes to the string that already exist - ask yourself if you could do the same. Try to imagine what it would feel like to believe in something so strongly that you would take such an action.
Also who gives a shite what Sinn Fein or any of the rest of them said. The action to decomission Raytheon does not require approval or justification from any political party. And nor does it matter which SF councillor is related to another... You do know how many McLaughlins are in Derry don't you?
Anyway I feel a great sense of pride that this happened in my city. Well done lads!
Well done, a great start , and hope many more actions follow your lead, on all the arms factories in the 26 counties.
Solidarity to all involved. Dont accept punitive bail conditions; get good legal help and appeal them pronto.
Beir bua, hasta la victoria!
Thats a dirty lie
There cant be any more than One hundred and thirty four thousand three hundred and eight point five McLaughlins in Derrylondon/Londaindaoire
But it was all different before 1169 before those horrible brits came to steal our wimmen and rape our potatoes. Back in those days it was a land of peace and love with rainbows everyday. Everybody lived to be 1000 there were no celebrity shows on TV and it only rained on tuesdays between 2 and 5 in the morning
Ex Green Party MEP Patricia McKenna has excellent piece in support of the action in today's Daily Ireland, has a right go at the SDLP over their stance on it, does not seem to be on-line yet www.dailyireland.com but it is a full page piece in the print edition.
Derry Antiwar Activists Face Terrorism Charges
The Raytheon Nine
By GORETTI HORGAN
http://www.counterpunch.org/horgan08142006.html
The only reason for the remand in prison and the severity of the charges is that the protestors live in Northern Ireland. This would not have happened in Britain or the South of Ireland. Despite the New Labour talk of a new NI, political dissent is still treated differently here.
Bail was granted but the restrictions are draconian. Conditions include an exclusion zone around Raytheon, and also ban the protestors from attending any public meeting or any private meeting of Derry Anti War Coalition or the Irish Anti War Movement. They were told that a "private meeting" means any meeting of three or more people.
I still can't believe this, has this happened to anyone else and how can they stop people meeting and speaking?
McKenna on Arms decomissioning.
http://www.dailyireland.com/home.tvt?_scope=DailyIrelan...opp=1
An interesting article Goretti, but just one observation...
"The five others, Eamonn O'Donnell, Gary Donnelly, Paddy McDaid, Jimmy Kelly and Micky Gallagher are Republicans, from the IRSP and the 32-Country Sovereignty Committee"
Hardly the best harbringers of peace considering that these organisations have clearly defined affiliations with certain terrorist organisations that have been responsible for maimings and killings in Northern Ireland over the years.
Are these really the type of people that we want to be involved in the peace movement in this country? I can't help but feel that they are excerising their own agenda which has nothing to do with bringing peace to the Middle East, but rather continuing a campagin in which it was acceptable to blow people up and shoot them down in the street like dogs. Given Raytheon's links to the MOD it is not surprising that they were only too happy to take the actions which they did.
Therefore I feel that by employing people like this to do the "dirty work" the legitimate peace-seeking organisations will be seen as tarnished and tainted by the general public
As a 'regular, normal, generic person-on-the-street', I would like to thank the 'Raythoen 9' for their brave actions last week. You have given me, and all whom I've talked to this week, a sense of empowerment and pride.
I usually shy away from adding to these comment boards, but needed to make clear the wealth of support that this action has stirred among my friends and family. Finally! Concrete action against the madness. It's inspiring.
I wasn't very keen on any of those organisations before this, but they come out of it smelling like roses by taking this action. I am now more predisposed to take account of their theory and arguments.
I see skeptic.
So the next time they fire bomb local businesses and put local people out of jobs, you will no doubt be going out with them to celebrate.
Sure go and explain your support to the people of Omagh. I'm sure you could persuade them that these people are really quite fluffy and wonderful.
What a wharped individual you must be.
"The only reason for the remand in prison and the severity of the charges is that the protestors live in Northern Ireland. This would not have happened in Britain or the South of Ireland. Despite the New Labour talk of a new NI, political dissent is still treated differently here.
Bail was granted but the restrictions are draconian. Conditions include an exclusion zone around Raytheon, and also ban the protestors from attending any public meeting or any private meeting of Derry Anti War Coalition or the Irish Anti War Movement. They were told that a "private meeting" means any meeting of three or more people.
I still can't believe this, has this happened to anyone else and how can they stop people meeting and speaking?"
This happens because the arrests took place in the area of the country occupied by a foreign power . They even threw up the fact Eammon McCann had previous convictions in 1969/70 for his civil rights protests in an attempt to criminalise him during his bail hearing . Be under no illusions that if the Irish people insisted on their national sovereignty being respected by by Britain Raytheons products could rain down on some of their villages as well .
Remember too that those attacking the anti war protestors for including 32csm and IRSP members among their number have little problem with Nobel peace prize winner John Hume who brought these Raytheon purveyors of death to Derry in the first place
Well Barry/Skeptic2 or whatever you want to call yourself.
At least Hume trys to bring jobs into Ireland, not take them away by pointlessly destroying businesses which employ people from the very community they propose to represent.
Or plant car bombs to mow down 29 innocent people and two unborn children in Omagh.
But I suppose that is ok now because Raytheon make parts that go in missiles that Isreali reverse-nazis use to kill innocent people in Lebanon.
Alice says above:
""Sinn Féin has consistently called for an end to the occupation of Iraq, Palestine and Lebanon."
This is also the politics of Eamon Mccann and they find themselves now in the same boat as the Peace People, represented on this thread by Justin Morahan above, but were once represented by Betty and Mairead. Amazing, all together now, and a big subtext is thjeir anti-israel stance. Uniting together these utter reactionaries of the so-called Peace Movement, the SWP and the Irish Left, and the Provos.
What unites them all, I think it is their hatred of Israel.
Even though Israel is fighting for its life against the worst Fascists on the planet, namely Iran, Syria and Hezbullah cum Hamas.
It is only a short time ago that Iran hung two gay lads publicly in Teheran, for being gay! This is the new nature of the Irish "Left".
This is the content of this action by McCann and his friends. It is reactionary through and through. Anybody on the Irish Left who gives any kind of support to Hezbollah is backing a fascist and a Jew-hating force.
There needs to be a new leadership built to expose these supporters of Hezbollah fascism in Ireland, that is for sure.
I think you will find they have common cause against people being killed and injuired. Nothing wrong with that.
You say Israel is fighting for its life. There is no evidence of that. There are now over 1300 people dead in Lebanon as a result of the Israeli invasion. The number injuired runs into the 1000s. I think it is more a case of Lebanon fighting for it's survival now that much of it's infrastructure has been blown to pieces. But why of course none of this will be seen for what it is -terrorism - by those totally blinkered into auto-reactive support of whatever Israeli must do.
We should also remember the Hezbollah kidnapping of 2 soldiers was carried out as a response to the kidnapping of a doctor and two other civilians by the Israeli army days before.
Terence
You write above about
"the Hezbollah kidnapping of 2 soldiers was carried out as a response to the kidnapping of a doctor and two other civilians by the Israeli army days before"
Who were these 3 people? What is your source? Have you checked on your source and what is the israeli version of this?
There is much misinformation from the Arab side and it now appears that photographs are being doctored and that the kana incident was a carefully staged by Hezbullah affair.
It seems likely that corpses of chuildren were brought by refrigerated truck to Kana and that an elaborate theatre took place, the aim being to blacken the name of Israel.
There is a precedent for the use of already dead in this ghastly way by Islamofascists, one example being the Racak massacre in Yugoslavia and there the US along with the Islamofascists were implicated in the shape of a William Walker of the CIA. He had been involved in Central American death squads.
So let us check on those sources above Terence.
But you have not bothered to deal with ...what is Hezbullah. Why not Terence? And Michael Y of course?
Terence and Michael
On the issue of Israel and hezbollah
The politics of Hezbollah can be seen here by this UPI report (published in Emperors New Clothes)
"Hezbollah leader urges Palestinians to attack," United Press International, 4 October 2000
Source: Hezbollah leader urges Palestinians to attack, United Press International, October 4, 2000, Wednesday, General News, 324 words, By Dalal Saoud, Beirut, Lebanon, Oct. 4
(As archived by Lexis-Nexis)
===============================================
Hezbollah chief Seyyed Hassan Nasrallah Wednesday encouraged Palestinians to have faith and fight Israeli occupying forces with suicide attacks and even knives.
"Palestine could be liberated by armed struggle, knives and suicide operations," Nasrallah said during a rally of thousands of Hezbollah followers in Beirut's southern suburbs.
He said liberating Palestine does not require "armies," reminding how Hezollah guerrillas fought Israeli forces in south Lebanon for years and forced their withdrawal from south Lebanon last May after 22 years of occupation.
"We did so (in Lebanon) and you can do the same," Nasrallah said as his followers shouted "Allah Akbar" (God is Great). He told the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to find Israel's "weak point," as Hezbollah did in south Lebanon.
"The priority in south Lebanon was not destroying a tank as Israelis can bring thousands of tanks,'' he said. "Their (Israelis) principal weak point is the Israeli human being who is not ready to make sacrifices and is not ready to die. We, in Lebanon and Palestine, adore martyrdom and we can defeat them (Israelis)."
Nasrallah said the Palestinians can move "from the Intifada of stone-throwing to suicide operations."
"The formula should not remain that they kill our children but should be to kill their soldiers and settlers," he said. "If you don't have bullets, everyone of you has knives and can use them to kill Israeli soldiers and settlers."
He said if attacks were successful, no Jewish immigrant would stay in Israel and would surely prefer to go back to the country he came from, whether Ethiopia or Russia.
Nasrallah promised the "great and struggling" Palestinian people assistance from Hezbollah, refusing to disclose how. "We will be with you and we will not abandon you. We will at your side and you can bet on this and that is enough," he said. "We should have big faith and trust in God."
Copyright 2000 U.P.I. * Posted for Fair Use Only
Note, Michael and Terence, he is talking about jewish immigrants and them going back....
There is much more of this in the archives. So Michael Y out of your utter hatred for Israel (Where did you get that ?) you are prepared, along with the Irish "Left" and Provos like McGuinness and O'Snodaigh side with these Fascists and jew haters against Israel.
There is very little on this site which is exploring the nature of the Hezbullah Movement and its rabid anti-Semitism. Why is the Irish Left and Provos like O'Snodaigh hiding this anti-Semitism.
Recently Emperors New Clothes did a piece which featured Hezbullah television called Al Manar
Here is the transcript:
[Al Manar transcript starts here]
Title: Jews take blood from Christian child for Passover matzo.
Scene I: Two men talking.
Rabbi (speaking to a young man seated next to him) : We have a task from the leadership. We need the blood of a Christian child before Passover for matzo.
Scene II: Dimly lit hallway. Rabbi with young man behind him. A third man enters dragging a child.
Christian child: Nathan save me!
Nathan: Don't be afraid.
Rabbi nods to the young man who nods to Nathan. Nathan forces the child down onto the floor and cuts his throat. Someone catches the blood in a bowl.
Scene III: Rabbi and young man standing, eating matzo. While chewing they nod to one another as if to say, "We have done what we need to do. Now we have our reward."
[Al Manar transcript ends here]
Felix, your complete denial and apologies for the industrial scale terrorism resulting in mass murder on a grand scale by Israel are hard to stomach as well as suggest that dead bodies were trucked in is just sickening. Felix answer this, would you find it offensive if someone suggested the same was done on the other side? I would and I am sure you would too.
You can quote Hezbullah all you like, but it is still no excuse for the murder of 100s of people, destruction of a large amount of the infrastructure of an entire nation. Although it appears to in your book.
Regarding your question on what is Hezbullah? I'm not sure what you are actually referring to, but what I do know, is that the systematic undermining, and oppressing and crushing of all secular and Left wing movements throughtout the entire Middle East by Israel, USA and Britain along with the corrupt Arab governments they have help install were purely designed to create reactionary right wing dead end fundamentalist reglious groups instead. And yet, in all this we still see the desire and need for any kind of socialism to arise, because it must be remembered that many fundamentalist groups derive a fair amount of support, by providing basic social services, whether it be food, health, money to the poor in those countries who were long ago abandoned. Even now Hezbullah are offering to help pay for people to rebuild their homes. So what is Hezbullah, can be summed up as the result of the decades of aggression and the only likely grouping to arise and surivive in such an environment.
But to get on to sources for the kidnappings, for example see:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10697
On June 24th, one day prior to the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier by "Palestinian militants", Reuters reported that "elite [Israeli] commandos mounted Israel's first arrest raid into the Gaza Strip . . . since the Jewish state withdrew a year ago," detaining medical student Osama Muamar and his brother Mustafa, a university student. Israel said the two men were Hamas militants, though Hamas denies this and no evidence was presented. All that is firmly known is that Israel invaded sovereign territory and seized two civilians.
Either way this sort of stuff had been going on for ages and as Seymour Hersh reported earlier in the week the blitz on Lebanon was planned months in advance and was discussed at the highest levels between the Israelis and the US terrorist administration.
See his interview at:
2 of the protestors were physically attacked in the courthouse by PSNI members in full view of the judge as one of them read a prepared statement
You're not a very good reader - or else you choose not to read what you see but only what you want to see. I specifically noted that I was writing in a personal capacity which means that I was not representing the Peace People on this thread, which means that what you wrote is not true, - but why bother to let the truth get in the way of an ignorant swipe.
It would serve you better if you were to address the substance of what I wrote rather than engage in this type of juvenile mischief making.
Nowhere in my comment did I mention Israel.
I said "Because I believe that Raytheon is an integral part of the arms industry and therefore responsible for the killing and maiming that is happening in so many places around the world, because I believe that property is not more sacred than humans, especially when the property in question is used for the killing of humans, because War and Violence have prospered in so many places due the opposite belief - namely that possessions and property are more sacred than humans - and because Raytheon's existence in its present form nurtures and is nurtured by War and violence, I support this action of decommissioning in Derry".
You say you think that what is common in mine and others' support for the Derry action is a hatred of Israel. Are you saying then that all who are against the killing and maimimg that goes on around the world, are in some way showing "hatred of Israel"? Or that all who oppose the production of the killing and maiming weapons show "hatred of Israel"? Or that all who dare to believe that humans are more sacred than property are thereby "hating Israel"? Or that all who don't want warand violence to prosper are "haters of Israel"?
That would be a strange reaction from someone who labels the Peace Movement as "reactionary".
http://www.plowsharesactions.org/webpages/HARRIETTUBMAN.htm
Terence you write
"Felix, your complete denial and apologies for the industrial scale terrorism resulting in mass murder on a grand scale by Israel are hard to stomach as well as suggest that dead bodies were trucked in is just sickening. Felix answer this, would you find it offensive if someone suggested the same was done on the other side? I would and I am sure you would too. "
Your statements make certain assertions as if they were the truth. This is argument by assertion. A lying method.
In the above you refer to the war and the role of Israel in that war as
* industrial scale terrorism
* mass murder on a grand scale
* and my suggestion that there is a possibility that dead bodies were trucked into Qana from Tyre is "sickening"
And this is just one of your sentences. All of these assertions by you Terence I can certainly question, and I will certainly question in a more general way following this.
When I ask you what is the nature of Hezbullah, is it a fascist and a Jew killing army? You reply in the negative.
You ignore the photograph of Hezbullah troops giving the fascist salute, and you dismiss the type of material that Hezbullah television beams into all of the Middle East which I have placed down in print above and which you cannot dispute the authenticity of. Why do you ignore that Terence! What is it that motivates you Terence!
Can you find for me anything equivalent that comes out of the Israeli side? That would be helpful for readers if you could.
Justin Morahan
You are connected with the Northern Ireland Peace Movement, are you not?
What then does speaking in a personal capacity mean? It really means nothing. If you are a member of a prominent organisation as the Peace People, with such a controversial history as has Corrigan, then it is meaningless.
The issue at the top is the war in Lebanon; that is made very explicit and that is why I am on this thread.
In your response you make not a single reference to the nature of Hezbullah, whether or not it is a Fascist and Jew Hating organization. I refer you to the material I have put down in print above, which is coming out of Hezbullah television, which is the worst of the worst of anti-Semitism. So can you, Justin Morahan, say nothing about that on this thread. Nothing!
I believe that this is the first time that anybody has placed in print this abnoxious anti-Semitism which is coming out of the Hezbullah on this site Indymedia, possibly on any site in Ireland. No comment from the Peace Movement!
You also say:
"Michael Bermingham, Caoimhe Butterly and Kathy Kelly give quiet and powerful witness in the war zone, marchers and protestors give witness on the streets and outside embassies".
Butterly in particular I know, also Kelly. They are the bitterest enemies Israel has got and they support Hamas and they support Hezbullah.
That is their main war zone that you refer to.
You try to stand back at one remove. But your support, so avid, for Butterly damns you and damns the Peace Movement of N Ireland that I believe you are closely associated with.
Nobody cares Felix, nobody cares. We can all see that you're a raving lunatic from your endless, tedious posts. If there was any doubt about that, it was removed when we saw you attempt to claim that there was no massacre at Qana, because Hezbullah just brought in a load of refrigerated corpses and blew the building up themselves. You're a sick, twisted individual, and the fact that Justin Morahan or anyone else stands condemned in your eyes is surely a vote of confidence for all normal human beings.
It is very difficult to know where to start intrying to combat the lies which are put about on thios Indymedia site. I accept this is not the fault of the organisers in that it is an open site.
I was struck by this comment on another thread, I think, but which directly is relevant to the war in Lebanon, and to Hezbullah which the topic at the top refers to.
Tommy Donnellan - IPSC Sun Jul 30, 2006 18:50
"Neocon David Horowitz says that by slaughtering Palestinian and Lebanese civilians, “Israel is doing the work of the rest of the civilized world, thus equating war criminals with civilized men.Neocon Larry Kudlow says that “Israel is doing the Lord’s work” by murdering Lebanese"
The quandary that people like myself face is that Indymedia Ireland has got a well-constructed blog and there are bound to be many people in Ireland and elsewhere reading it.
Some of these readers may be young, but young or old some may not look closely enough at the above piece, which is typical of many writers who are haters of Israel.
But to me the distortions which Donnellan uses are very obvious and are not at all sophisticated, falling into the crude category.
Look again what he does.
He puts in quotation marks what David Horowitz says but then he seeks to change the meaning by adding his own spin, outside of the quotation marks, which amount to really terrible lies.
He ends up with this:
Horowitz is a neocon which is used as an ambiguity
Israel is “slaughtering” civilians
Israelis are war criminals
Israel is not part of the civilised world
When Donnellan deals with his next target Kudlow he repeats that he too is a Neocon
Again he puts a short phrase in quotation, that Israel is doing the Lord’s work is in quotations but adds, this is Donnellan speaking, “by murdering Lebanese”.
What is a Neocon? I think that Dopnnellan means here that they are neo-conservatives who control the Bush Government.
Does Donnellan mean that they are Israelis who direct the Bush Government?That is left in the air. Does he mean that they are Jews who direct the Bush Government? Donnellan knows that that is always in the air in Fascist (such as David Duke) sites. You would think that if Donnellan is on the Left he would separate himself from that. BUT HE DOES NOT!
Here with Donnellan there is a total hiding of these realities.
1. The smallness of Israel
2. That Israel built a strong army because of its smallness, that it was surrounded by hostile states.
3. That the history of the relationship with these Arab and Islamist states is one of continual, never-ceasing war
4. That time after time starting in 1947 after the UN Partition Resolution these Arab states have attacked Israel
5. That the “Occupation” was a response to one of the most deadly attacks, 1967 which followed on from 1948
6. That Arab refugees have been used conscously by Arab states to destroy Israel
7. That the Arab and Islamist bloc control the UN as a whole, and UN bodies in relation to Israel.
8. That Kofi Annan carries this hatred of Israel in his soul.
9. That in the last war with the Lebanon Hezbullah is an army which seeks to destroy Israel completely
10. That its leader Nasrullah advocates violence against ordinary Jewish people
11. That it was Hezbullah which attacked Israel first, shelling the country, killing soldiers and kidnapping soldiers.
12. That it is the Lebanese Government which as a sovereign government is ultimately responsible for this
13. That Hezbullah, unlike Israel have a policy of killing as many Jews, civilians, as possible
14. That it is proved that Reuters and others have been doctoring photographs. Reuters is one of those massive news organizations which supplies the newspapers with news material so if they are doctoring the news this has massive repercussions.
15. That Islamofascists, with the help of the US Government, have used corpses to blacken the name of the Serbs as they destroy a country (Yugoslavia) (The Racak “Massacre”)
16. That there is firm evidence that the Qana “massacre” was a set-up. It was a piece of theatre put on for a very willing Media. Many of the photos on Qana are by the same photographer who doctored the now withdrawn Reuters photograph.
17. There are many other things hidden by Donnellan. Above all is the issue of what kind of organisation is Hezbullah. We have a photo available on the web of the Hezbullah troops giving the fascist salute. If Donnellan is left wing you would think, given the history of the Left in the Spanish Civil War, that this would be published by Donnellan. He has never. He has hidden this photograph.
18. Similarly with the nature of the Iranian regime. We have a photograph, widely and easily available on the Web, of two youth being hung in Teheran not so long ago. This is a horrific photograph. A gay friend of mine says he cannot look at it! We have to bear in mind what this photograph tells us about Iran and Hezbullah, or indeed for that matter, the Palestinians of Hamas.
19. There are the continual exhortations of Iran as the sponsors of Hezbullah to destroy the Zionist State which is Israel, and often he simply says, for our convenience, Israel.
These are only some of the issues which the Irish “Left”, or Neoleft, decides to hide or play down in the interest of following their chosen hatred of Israel.
Place yourself in the position of Israel. To help understand perhaps it is an idea to switch the setting.
Spain is a very large country, you could probably place Israel into a corner of Valencia, but imagine the kind of problem that would arise if say France were to shell Spain across the border up near San Sebastian, were to send in the French Army, or a French Fascist group and then backed them as Siniora has done, and then kidnapped Spanish soldiers and still has not released them, if they are even alive. Can you imagine the response of the Spanish Government and people to that!!!
On a related manner. If Israel was planning to kill civilians in the thousands of sorties it has flown in this war, would it have killed about a 1000, and nobody has told how many of these 1000 are terrorist Hezbullah. I say terrorist because they do not dress as soldiers, but wear civilian clothes. They also are an army which fights from within civilians. The Viet Cong under Giap never did that! Of course it would not have been a 1000 dead. The figure of 1000 shows that Israel was trying its utmost NOT to kill civilians.
But what is Israel to do. Allow its small country to be continaully attacked by rocket fire so that ordinary people cannot live at peace. The figure of 1000 to anybody who is fair and is not blinded by Israel hatred tells its own story. Israel was taking the utmost care to kill only Hezbullah Fascists who were hiding and fighting using civilians as cover.
To conclude and to return to Donnellan at the top.The method that Donnellan uses is to obscure the truth. Donnellan is the tip of a very large and ugly boil that exists in the Irish Left and in the Provos and this rotten boil shows in their combined hatred of Israel.
We also have a blogger (Terence) who says to me above that I can quote all I like from the words of Hezbullah. As if no matter what I prove about Hezbullah, or anybody else proves on this site, it will not be taken up.
We have a Peace Person in the form of Justin Morahan, speaking in a personal capacity if yuou dont mind, completely ignoring this content of Hezbullah while showering Israel haters with praise.
We have a man like Donnellan who butchers words!
So where to go from here with Indymedia and its contributors if they dismiss evidence so easily.
Facts Felix - facts
Hezbollah fighters battled Israeli commandos who landed near the militants' stronghold deep inside Lebanon early this morning, Saturday, killing one soldier, in the first apparent large-scale violation of the U.N.-brokered cease-fire..
Hezbollah said its guerrillas foiled the raid after a gunbattle, and the Israeli army said one soldier was killed and two were wounded, one seriously.
Witnesses said Israeli missiles destroyed a bridge during the raid, and Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora called the military action a "flagrant violation" of the cease-fire, which took effect Monday following 34 days of fighting.
We must all now presume that this was another 'defensive' offensive of the Israeli Army. I am sure Felix will come up with some 'elegant' explanation on why this attack was necessary - and he'll argue against Justin, the Peace Movement, the new-Left, the SDLP, the iawm, probably the UN and the Lebanese PM Saniora on the basis that we all, for some reason, 'hate Israel'.
For a while Felix we all thought you were a serious thinking, albeit misguided, genuine person. I am now convinced you are a tragic farce!! Your texts get longer and longer in defence of those who perpetrate war crimes - the more people Israel slaughters, the more destruction it causes, the more 'eloquent' your pro-Israeli scribbles become.....enough is enough!
The name of the author is required.
Yet the person above gives his name as Felix Lighter, which is an obvious and stupid attempt at ridicule. Answer by ridicule.
That post should be removed.
The person who wrote it tries also to rubbish mu claim that the Qana incident was manufactured by Hezbullah. Why should this not be opened up for discussion!
We already have got many incidents where it has been proved that Islamofascists use dead for propaganda purposes (The Racak Massacre where it was used to slander Serbs) and there are many sites on the web, and much published material, that questions just about everything concerning this Qana incident.
I would anyhow like to know where I stand on this issue of authorship of articles. It says at the top Author (required)
Most people use a pseudonym and that is all right presuming it goes back to a real individual. This however is different. It is an effort at ridicule and is so clearly playing the man.
When I put my own and real name down when I posted here I did so in good faith now I find that this is being used by some idiot for clearly political purposes
""The peace people are mad. Half of them are terrorists who kill people and blow things up""
"Yes but what about the other half ?"
Guilty by association? Or just failed to take a good hard look as to who their new friends were?
For me the jurys out on this one. Did they willingly embraced help from the Real IRA? Or did they genuinely not realise who these men were? They have been very quiet about this particular issue so some will say they have something to hide. The other side of the coin is that they are just too embarrassed now after realising who these men were. I would like to think the latter. I hope its not the former. One thing is certain however - McCann knew.
No Felix, if you're going to come on here, rave and rant and insult and abuse people, tell everyone who criticises Israel that they're an anti-Semite and a lover of fascism, come out with shameless lies about the massacre at Qana, then you can expect a little mild ridicule. Quite remarkable - you abuse people non-stop, call them anti-semites and fascist-lovers, then as soon as you get the slightest taste of your own medicine, you start shrieking and demanding censorship. Your claim to be posting 'in good faith' is laughable. Get over yourself.
Muddying the waters
To: Mike/ Mad Jack McMad/Did they know. Nice try to muddy the waters. You are so funny. Stop making me laugh.
To Felix Quigley:
(1)You ask: "What does it mean to speak in a personal capacity?" It means just to speak for myself, not on behalf of an organisation, (that's already in the text).
But you say that if I am a member of the Peace Movement, speaking in a personal capacity means nothing!
How come?
(2) With your penchant for surnames you say "Butterley in particular, I know, also Kelly. They are the bitterest enemies Israel has got and they support Hamas and they support Hezbullah" Please give your reliable sources, Mr Quigley, for these outrageous claims, or withdraw them.
(3) Then I will also have to ask you to withdraw your emotional outburst against myself and the Peace People when you say: "You try to stand back at one remove. But your support, so avid, for Butterly damns you and damns the Peace Movement of N Ireland that I believe you are closely associated with."
To clear the waters that you tried to muddy, all two of you, I support no act of violence against any human or animal, I do not support Hamas or Hezbullah insofar as they engage in such acts, I do support Michael Bermingham, Caoimhe Butterley and Kathy Kelly in their unselfish, enormous and heroic humanitarian work around the world.
You are the one Mr Quigley who attacked me on this thread although I had not mentioned Israel. I wrote against war and violence and in favour of actions that promote people over property. It happened that this time the protestors were thinking of the war in Lebanon. The Pitstop Ploughshares were against the war in Iraq and I supported their action for the same reason as I supported the action of the Derry nine. If Raytheon parts were later used for Hizbollah rockets or rockets and arms that fell into their hands, which side would you be on then?
In a later e-mail you will find that I do not stand back at one remove. I will give you a list of some points that you have unfairly overlooked in your assessment of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This will not make me an Israel-hater although I anticipate that reply from your earlier misreadings of what I wrote.
In an earlier e-mail, you implied that I was standing back at one remove and not engaging on the question of Israel and Lebanon.
You know as well as I do that the war against Hizbollah on the soil of Lebanon did not begin a month ago. It is an ongoing war between the State of Israel and the dispossessed people who lost their homes and land in Israel, then Palestine, when the State of Israel occupied it in 1948.
You made a number of points in favour of Israel in that context. Here are some points you failed to make which might counter or balance your arguments. Many of the following factors have influenced the reaction of people everywhere to Israel's latest war in Lebanon
1.The eviction and driving of Palestinian (Arabs) from their land and homes in 1948 which continues to this day
2. The confiscation of Palestinian (Arab) lands in 1948, also continued to this day
3. The expropriation of Palestinian (Arab-owned) houses to Jewish ownership in 1948
4. The subsequent existence of Palestinian refugees from Israel, at present numbering over 4 million, living in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Palestine
5. The fact that the State of Israel was built as a result of settlements from outside, getting its imprimatur from the UN in 1946 against the wishes of the native, deprived Palestinian Arabs
6. The might of the Israeli army since its inception, due mainly to the absolute backing it receives from the United States
7. The almost total black-out of news on the above in post-war Ireland because of perceived guilt and genuine distress felt for Jews who had been victims of the Holocaust.
8. The fact that Israel has occupied the present-day West Bank part of Palestine, and until recently the remaining part (Gaza) against the mandate of the UN
9. The manner in which Israel has treated the Palestinians under occupation, and continues to do so.
10.The overweening attitude of many Israeli apologists, including you, Mr Quigley, towards critics of the present Israeli or previous Israeli governments and their clever use of the media on all fronts while adroitly complaining of media bias against them
11.The relentless apologists that come on the airwaves, TV and the Internet to defend every single action of Israel, no matter how heinous, and to sow doubt in the minds of the recipients concerning the existence of an atrocity - even when the Prime Minister of Israel has apologised and attempted to make excuses for it.
12. The fact that 1,700,000 inhabitants of Palestine (West Bank and Gaza) are refugees who themselves or their families rightfully own land and homes in what is now Israel but were deprived of their ownership and inheritance by the new Israeli State
13.The fact that Israel created law in 1950, the Absentee Property Law, confiscating the land of "Absentees" and applied it to the land of any Palestinian who fled or was forced to leave their property during the 1948 takeover.
14 That Palestinians were unhappy, outraged and angry at the events of 1948, the resulting series of events being known to them as "the Catastrophe" but to Israelis as "the War of Independence " or the "War of Liberation".
15. That Israel won that "War" or "Catastrophe" and that the pillaged and robbed Palestinians have never been appeased.
16 That, in the absence of UN protection or insistence on their right to return, some Palestinians have made various attempts to redress the wrongs done to them, sometimes by war .
17. That in all such wars they stood no chance of winning (see no 6 above)
18 That the Absentee Property Law was applied again after the 1967 war, and very recently to lands in Occupied East Jerusalem in order to justify further illegal acquisition of territory in the city
19 That a wall erected around and often through Palestine - in the process acquiring land that is later settled by Israelis .
20 That Palestinians are denied Jerusalem-residency permits, housing permits and access to public housing in the city of Jerusalem while the Israeli State continues to demolish Palestinian homes, cut them off from off from their properties through settlement expansion, and the existence of Jewish-only bypass roads.
21 That Israel has concealed its nuclear arsenal, will not allow inspections of Dimona, imprisoned Mordechai Vanunu for eighteen years for having revealed the truth and at present, even after his release, refuses to allow Vanunu a passport or to leave Israel or to move about or speak freely - in violation of the Declaration of Human Rights.
22. That in pointing out these truths one doe not show "hatred of Israel" - anger at Israel, yes, but not hatred which as we all know helped kindle the Holocaust
(The allegation of "hatred of Israel" against every just criticism has long since worn thin.)
23 That Palestine is one of the few countries that elected a Parliament that is not allowed to function - the obstacles to travel and communicate see to that, including the Israeli checkpoints throughout Palestine where Israeli-registered taxis are waved through without delay but all other vehicles, especially Palestinian ones, are held up for four or five hours in scorching heat. Also mass incarceration of elected deputies. And this is not a nice way to treat an occupied people.
24.That many Jewish people themselves make similar criticisms of present-day Israel and many of her soldiers have decided not to fight in her army because of such anger and disillusionment.
Justin
As regards muddying the waters. Well the facts are there. It is no secret that some of the members of the Raytheon nine are thirty-two County Sovereignty Committee a.k.a. the Real IRA. Its been reported in the press. Therefore it is a legitimate concern that peace people are now associating with these terrorists and if you choose to overlook or accept this as a legitimate joining-of-minds then it is very much to your own discredit. You may view this concern as being funny but to some of us at least it is a far from humorous.
The 32 County Sovereignty Movement are most definitely not the "Real IRA" .They are a legal and open political organisation which are very active on the ground in Derry.One of the republican activists arrested , Gary Donnelly only narrowly missed being elected to the local council last year and is well supported in the Bogside . As was this protest in Raytheon . Republicans have a perfect right to engage in these protests . Its no surprise to see the state agenda of smears isolation and divide and conquer being used to attak the protestors . Only thing is we've seen it for decades and are well able to smell a rat .
Mike, your anonymous comments have been so hilariously funny throughout the thread that when you got serious and half-turned into "Did they know", I could hardly take you seriously. Sorry about your "legitimate concern that peace people are now associating with these terrorists" as you put it.
Let me quickly put your fears to rest.
I will associate with any other human being or group of humans for what I consider a good cause. I have always done so and will not change now. I won't be too worried about the legitimate concern of "some of us", as you put it, as I pay little heed to anonymous posters. I don't think your concern is funny, just non-existent. Prove me wrong by telling me who you are and why you are so concerned about peace people and who they associate with.
Come out from the shadows and bring all your doppelgangers with you.
For the record I have not posted under any other names on this thread. This can be verified If you wish to go bothering the operators of the Indymedia server for their IP logs (although I suspect they have better things for doing)
Oh and Mike is my real name.
So again an invite: come out of the shadows
First of all on your personal capacity claim. Suppose McGuinness makes a statement about an issue as serious as this, but he is speaking (he says!) in a personal capacity. I think most people in Ireland would laugh their heads off.
I read this, second entry in Google I think.
"Our Chant Arose: "VANUNU IS FREE".
international | rights and freedoms | feature Monday April 26, 2004 22:46 by Just in Morahan - Peace People
Five Peace People were in Israel for the Release of Mordechai Vanunu Last Week
Five Peace People - Mairead Maguire, Ann Patterson, Barbara Faibish, Kevin Cassidy and Justin Morahan - were outside Ashkelon prison in southern Israel when Mordechai Vanunu walked to freedom on Wednesday 21st April. Here is a vivid account from Justin of his trip. And yes - he was the person spotted on SKY News with the Irish language banner ."
So you are part here of this group of five, who travel across to Israel, for this special event in your eyes. That places you fairly prominently in the ranks of the Peace Movement of Northern Ireland.
Now the point made above that the Peace Movement is connected with extremist republicans who want to sweep away the Northern Ireland state is interesting. That is a good point. Thank you.
Now from the above points by Justin on the Palestine Israel isssue I can see that the Peace Movement is also lining up behind the Islamofascists of the Fatah-Hamas-Hezbvollah movement, the aim of which is to destroy the State of Israel and to engineer another Holocaust. His points above, as I will show later, are really the programme of the Fascist "Palestinian" Movement
The points which Justin puts forward as to his position, are these also officially the position of the Peace Movement? Can a prominent member speak like this? To me it is a puzzle. My only conclusion, if the Peace Movement executive do not rebut these points that it is indeed the position of the Peace Movement of Northern Ireland.
By which I conclude what I suspected that Peace is a cover and they are really about war on Israel, and on the Jews who formed and still defend Israel from Fascism.
In his own words - from his blogspot
Monday, July 17, 2006
WHITEHOUSE BETRAYAL
URGENT: AN APPEAL TO ACT TO SAVE ISRAEL!!
Serious new information, please read and act.
I have just acquired information of a most alarming nature from the Middle East NewsLine, the most reliable of sources, regarding the situation of the war in the north [Note - not in Lebanon but 'the north']. Please! spread this information absolutely as widely as possible, especially in the U.S. Send this to everyone you can, put it on your lists and websites. If ever a groundswell of response was necessary, it is now.
The Bush administration is playing a good cop-bad cop routine with Israel[wow - when was the last time Dubya was attacked from 'the right'?]. Bush is not taking phone calls from Olmert, but is saying positive things to the press. Sec. of State Rice is the one who is communicating with Israel, and she is putting pressure on Israel not to send in ground forces. The goal is a “ceasefire” in the next 72 hours!!!!!
Unfortunately, we are dealing with a novice, confused government [it's the Empire he's talking about here - the ones who invaded Afghanistan and Iraq!!]that is lacking the courage that will allow it to mount a ground war [nothing about defence here - a ground war is what Mr Quigley wants - no wonder he' upset they have been kicked back].in the face of Rice’s objections. If we were determined to do so[we, the Israelis and the Quigley cabal!!], we damn well could.
What is more, Steve Hadley, Bush’s National Security Advisor, was in Russia two days and made a statement to the effect that the U.S. has no evidence that Iran and Syria are involved in what’s happening here — thereby making it a local Israeli issue. A local Israeli issue is precisely what it is not!!
The facts:
Even though there have been over 1,000 Israeli Air Force sorties into Lebanon, with airport, etc. bombed, the Hezbollah missiles continue to hit us. In fact, it’s getting worse. Eight people were killed in the last attack on Haifa. Hundreds have been wounded. Residents of Tel Aviv are now warned that they may be attacked. Rosh Hanikra and the Golan have been hit. What is happening? Without a ground expedition, it’s impossible to strike accurately and actually take out the missiles. Hezbollah is threating our stategic facilities [nothing here about civilians being hit!!]and this remains a real danger.
There are other sources of major concern: The C-802 rocket that hit the Israeli ship on Friday was a sophisticated radar-guided weapon that comes from Iran via China. Israeli authorities were surprised: they didn’t know Hezbollah had these. This means intelligence is lacking and we don’t know what else they have.
The fact of the Iranian weapon makes even clearer what is well understood: Iran is involved here. Hezbollah is not a rag-tag operation, it is an Iranian expeditionary force. Israel is the canary in the mine, dealing with what the west will deal with in larger terms down the road, if no action is taken. Iran is testing the waters!!
In spite of talk in the last day or two (which I had duly reported) of an IDF goal of putting the Lebanese army on the border, the IDF is opposed to this. Putting the Lebanese army on the border without taking out Hezbollah strength will be counted as a victory by Hezbollah[he is right here!] . The Lebanese army is much weaker than Hezbollah; Hezbollah will strengthen its forces behind the lines and then come forward to attack us again. Hezbollah strength must be removed.
Here in Israel, there must be pressure on the government to stay strong, stay the course, do what needs to be done to take out Hezbollah strength. This should be shared with every member of the Knesset.
But even more important is pressure from inside the U.S. on Bush; he is focused on the election later this year and needs to know that American voters are watching him now!!!
Please, call or write to President Bush:
[] Remind him that he promised to defend Israel if it is attacked by Iran.
[] Point out that this is exactly what is happening now.
[] Speak about his readiness to act in places like Afghanistan, and how this is the same thing.
[] Say that the U.S. will face greater difficulty down the road with Iran if it doesn’t show resolve in supporting Israel now, because Iran is testing the western world.
Ask him to communicate directly and unequivocably to the Israeli government that it has the full support of the U.S. in doing what needs to be done to take out Hezbollah strength, including a ground action.
Ask him to acknowledge that our fight in Israel is also the U.S.’s fight.
Ask him to oppose a ceasefire before the job is done.
Phone calls are best, then letters (snail mail or fax), then e-mail. Do as you can.
White House Comment line: 202-456-1111 TTY/TDD Comment line: 202-456-6213.
The White House1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NWWashington DC 20500
Fax: 202-456-2461
I was very proud to be part of the Peace People delegation that went to Israel for the release of Mordechai Vanunu. I wrote the main part of the article you quote from. If you look up the Peace People website, you will find that I am at present the Vice-Chair of the Peace People. I don't hide my identity, never have, never will.
I totally reject the preposterous idea that because one is a member of an organisation, in any capacity, one does not also have a right to speak in a personal capacity. Do I really have to explain this to you a third time?
I utterly reject your outrageous comment: "Now the point made above that the Peace Movement (sic) is connected (sic) with extremist republicans who want to sweep away the Northern Ireland state (sic) is interesting. That is a good point. Thank you."
This is an example of what I would call twisted logic.
You would like to confuse the issues, of course, because it serves your purpose.
It won't wash, Felix.
You say "the point made above", but of course, it's not made "above" but below, and only by yourself.
I also reject outright as another preposterous and slanderous allegation that I am lining up behind "the Islamofascists of the Fatah-Hamas-Hezbvollah movement, the aim of which is to destroy the State of Israel and to engineer another Holocaust." (sic)
You deny me the right to speak for myself, I see, because I have already made it clear that I do not support Hamas or Hizblollah, that I come from a position of non-violence and opposition to all war.
Typically, you prefer your own version of where I stand, and, as I expected, you want to brand me a "hater of Israel".
Worse than that, because you again attempt to deny me the right to speak for myself, you damn the "Peace Movement of Northern Ireland" (sic) with the same slander that you have levelled against me.
Again this won't wash. Much as you would like it, even you cannot deny the right to anyone to speak in a personal capacity.
Your resultant conclusion is that "Peace is a cover and they are really about war on Israel, and on the Jews who formed and still defend Israel from Fascism."
That statement is beneath contempt. It is the very opposite of truth. It happens also to be an excellent example of the "Fallacy of Many Questions"
But, why have a conscience about fallacies, when they serve your purpose as an apologist to try to squash all criticism from any quarter concerning the actions of the Israeli state.
Socialist Party Statement 18th August 2006
The bail conditions placed on the nine anti-war protestors who occupied the Raytheon factory in Derry are a serious infringement of the right to free speech and to peacefully protest. One of the conditions set by the court was that the nine would not take part in meetings or activities of the anti-war movement, public or private.
If this restriction is allowed to stand it could set a dangerous precedent for similarly severe restrictions being imposed in the future. There have been many cases where, under the anti-union laws, injunctions have been served on strikers to try to restrict their rights to picket. The restrictions imposed on the Raytheon protestors go much further. If they were applied to strikers they would not only limit the right to picket, they would effectively ban them from any participation whatsoever in their strike.
It is important that this ruling is opposed. Just as strikers have defied injunctions, the Socialist Party would fully support any of the Raytheon nine who defied this ban on participation in peaceful anti-war meetings.
The Raytheon nine are being charged with scheduled offences and their case may be heard by non-jury Diplock courts. This is out of proportion to the action they took in occupying this company.
Raytheon is a major arms company. It supplies guidance equipment for many of the missiles that have been used recently by Israel in the destruction of large parts of Lebanon. The actions of those who disrupted it for a day were peaceful compared to the death and destruction that is assisted by the Raytheon products.
From a tactical point of view, the actions of the protestors in smashing computer equipment were nonetheless inadvisable. A few thousand pounds worth of computers is nothing to a company that earns its profits in the billion dollar global arms market. The destruction of the computers is now being used by the State to justify the harsh treatment of the protestors and the restrictions on the right to protest represented by the bail conditions.
The Socialist Party is opposed to the armaments industry. We think that the industry should be taken over by the state and that the machinery, technology plus the skills of the workforce should be turned to producing products that are socially useful.
Our opposition to Raytheon and what it currently produces does not extend to the workforce in Derry who are only trying to earn a living in an area where jobs are hard to come by.
Rather than calling simply for Raytheon to close - and for it's workforce to lose their jobs - we demand that it should be taken into public ownership and that the high tech skills be turned to producing things that will enhance the lives of people, not bring destruction and death.
This attempt to criminalise anti-war activists and limit the right to protest must be opposed.
END
The following extract from the SP statement needs to be explained a bit more:
"From a tactical point of view, the actions of the protestors in smashing computer equipment were nonetheless inadvisable. A few thousand pounds worth of computers is nothing to a company that earns its profits in the billion dollar global arms market. The destruction of the computers is now being used by the State to justify the harsh treatment of the protestors and the restrictions on the right to protest represented by the bail conditions."
Is it adviseable to make such a remark in public? It looks like a slapping down of the activists involved because, no matter how you view it, the destruction of the computers was the main part of their action. Was the blockade of bin trucks advisable when the state could use it against the anti-bin charges campaign? Are industrial disputes by nurses, teachers and transport workers advisable when they almost certainly will be used against the trade union movement because of the disruption to patients/kids/commuters? How careful must we be not to upset bourgeois sensibilities?
The State is using the wrecking of the computers, but it is a piss-weak reason for the restrictions. The restrictions are wrong and should be staunchly opposed; enough of this 'understanding' of the State 'using' the damage caused!
The fact is that Raytheon occupation would have had little impact and would scarcely have been notice if the nine DIDN'T decommission the computers.
Is the SP merely about a codependant protest culture where it can promote its brand and recruit. The Raytheon action is obviiously an act of nonviolent resitance. The SP has to decide which side it is on! They come close to the position of the Liverpool heads of churches a week before the Seeds of hope Ploughshares trial in '96
http://www.plowsharesactions.org/webpages/weba.htm
The Liverpool bishops et. al called for an immediate end to arms exports to Suharto's Indonesia but said the women wouold have to pay for their crime. Two weeks later the Liverpool jury found the women not guilty and the heads of churches looked like they were trying to short circuit a legal process.
What was the SP position on the Pitstop Ploughshares? At the time of their '03 actiion? and after their '06 acquittal?
Barry
“The 32 County Sovereignty Movement are most definitely not the "Real IRA"
The 32 County Sovereignty Movement IS the self-proclaimed political wing of the Real IRA.
If you want to get into a Sinn Fein / IRA style debate then go ahead and waste your breath.
You’re not arguing with some unionist from Portadown here. I was born and bred in working class Derry so don’t bother to patronise me with some stupid “they are totally different” bullshit.
“Its no surprise to see the state agenda of smears isolation and divide and conquer being used to attak the protestors”.
No the actions of the Real IRA have done that. And if you think its just the state, North or South that are the only ones that have a problem with these idiots then go speak to the people who have been victims of their crimes over the years. Like it or not the majority of people within the Nationalist community want nothing to do with them. They're not hailed as heros or freedom fighters or soldiers for peace. They are hailed as scum.
The acceptance that people like Donnelly are now receiving after this event is the gist of the problem here as it gives rise to the fear is that by offering them support will encourage the Real IRA to kick off a further spate of attacks around the city. Great, just what we need. Back to the good old days of the troubles when we were all so much happier.
Please, can all of you who are playing the state's "divide and rule" game get it into your heads - all nine of the Raytheon 9, whatever their political affiliations, were at Raytheon on 9th August as members of Derry Anti War Coalition. So were a good lot more of us. They just happened to be the ones who got inside. The cops (who were there ahead of us, we had not been the slightest bit secretive about what we were about to do, the action was organised at two earlier meetings: one of over 70 and one of over 45 people). About 30 of us made a rush for the door and got half way in but then the cops starting pulling the smaller people (and all the women) out and threw a lot of people back before those who managed to get in turned around and pushed them (the cops) out, locking the door behind them. So, there was no conspiracy to have a mix of republicans and socialists inside - it just happened that way. Anyone who has ever been involved in an occupation, even as a student, will know how it goes.
Already in the Derry media, the defenders of Raytheon are focussing on the political affiliations of the Raytheon 9. We in the DAWC have enough difficulties defending our members against the right-wing "jobs at any cost" people. We wouldn't have expected to have to do it on Indymedia.
Quote from Socialist Party's statement:
"The destruction of the computers is now being used by the State to justify the harsh treatment of the protestors and the restrictions on the right to protest represented by the bail conditions."
The Socialist Party share the same focus problem as Sinn Féin Nua (I hope this is not an epidemic). I don't know why these parties are so focused and annoyed over a few computers being smashed-up. The smashing of the computers was important as an expression of outrage at Raytheon's activities globally, and without it, this action wouldn't have attracted the same media attention and, consequently, such a large audience.
I get the impression from reading the Socialist Party's statement that they are holding the Raytheon Nine responsible for the actions of a corrupt so-called "State". This so-called "State" would always have an ample supply of reserve excuses at hand to restrict protests and justify harsh treatment, they are true professionals at human rights' violations. It wouldn't have mattered to them if the Raytheon Nine didn't smash up anything, they would still have found a way to justify and impose their same dastardly restrictions.
The Raytheon Nine's actions were justified and I applaud them and any violation of their rights to freedom of expression should be condemned utterly.
Justin
I concur with Mike that I am in-fact not him. Either that or I have a split personality complex and just do not realise it. But as I doubt you will believe either Mike or myself then I suggest you follow up on his idea of asking the operators of Indymedia to verify the IP addresses for each of our comments.
“I will associate with any other human being or group of humans for what I consider a good cause”.
So if Saddam Hussein marched against the Middle East conflict tomorrow, no doubt you would be happy to stand by his side and pose for a few nice photographs to show your friends and family.
I had though it more likely that the legitimate peace movement in Derry had been naïve when it came to who the Raytheon nine were. But after reading this particular statement and if you really are Justin Morahan then it would seem that elements within the peace movement are happy and knowingly associating with terrorist supporters and excusers.
“ Prove me wrong by telling me who you are”
Firstly how do I know you are really Justin and not someone else claiming to be him. Secondly how is telling you my name going to change your mind? If the fact that you are associating with people who support the Omagh bombers is not enough to change your mind I very much doubt that knowing my identity will do that. My reasons for remaining anonymous are quite simple and practical. I have spoken out against a terror group and its supporters. I live in the town, I work in the town, I socialise in the town. Considering the calibre of the people I have spoken out against is it really such a surprise that I do not wish my identity known? Threats, intimidation and violence are all well proven tactics, which have been used to shut people up in the past and to prevent their right to freedom of speech. Thankfully internet sites such as this help to eliminate those threats and allow us all to voice our opinions in safety without reprisals from the people who would prefer if we remained silent. Which makes me wonder why are you so keen to know my identity Justin?
“and why you are so concerned about peace people and who they associate with.”
I thought I had made that quite obvious but I shall elaborate.
By encouraging the Political Wing of the Real IRA to become active in the town then there is the fear that the Real IRA will focus its next bombing campaign or blood-bath on Derry. I have no wish for my kids, my family, my friends or myself to be blown to bits as we go about our business on a Saturday afternoon. I have no wish to see my business which I worked damn hard for a lot of years to build to go up in smoke, my employees laid off or to see this happen to other businesses and workers in the town. I have no wish to see the work carried out by certain people, community groups even politicians for years in order to bring peace, reconciliation and prosperity to our kids, our communities, our religions and our local business set back by a bunch of fanatics who don’t give a damn about the people of this city and who have done nothing at all for it or anyone ever in their worthless lives. I don’t wish to see Derry become collateral damage to a bunch of lunatics who carry out pointless, unnecessary and insane attacks on our own people as they think in some twisted way it will bring peace and reconciliation to Ireland. Or perhaps I just fail to see the logic of acts such as destroying a leading carpet retailer in the city. Maybe you can enlighten me as to why this was a good thing to do Justin or Barry?
Saoirse
I apologise if what I have said thus-far has caused any offence or discomfort to any LEGITIMATE peaceful members of the DAWC, and by legitimate I mean people who are truly devoted to peace and not the ones who support killers and bombers be it in this country or any other. But you do have to realise that the political affiliations of some of the Raytheon Nine are cause for concern since the Real IRA continue a campaign of violence in the province and when the people who support them show up and are hailed as heros then not only is it an insult to the victims and famalies of victims but it gives concern as to where this encouragement will take them next.
Its great that you are fighting for peace around the world and God bless you for it but please remember that there is still a conflict in our country as well.
To Mike and "Did they know"
OK , I'll accept your word without bothering Indymedia editors, you are two different people although you sang from the same hymn sheet.
To "Did they know",
Under this pseudonym, you repeated Mike's abusive comment about "the peace people". His comment has since been removed. As I write, his abuse lives on in your own quotation of him. You will understand why you and Mike might be thought to be the same person.
I have no problem with your remaining anonymous if you don't use your anonymity to smear by implication someone who is not anonymous (You too can check with Indymedia editors)
In the same comment, and following from your repetition of Mike's abuse, you ask if the peace people are guilty by association.
So, you believe in the concept of "Guilt by association"? - Guilt by Association is in fact a fallacy, also known as "The Company that you keep fallacy"
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/guiltbya.html
Briefly, Guilt by Association is a type of ad hominem fallacy that attacks a person because of the similarity between the views of someone making an argument and other proponents of the argument.
If Saddam Hussein joined in a non-violent protest against war or the suppliers of war at which I was present or to which I lent support, that would not make me guilty of any crimes he committed. Nor would he be guilty of any of mine. The fallacy of "Guilt by association" was commonly used in the McCarthy era in the USA. Please don't fall into the trap of resurrecting it again, as it is a most unfair way of trying to smear.
Looking at it from another viewpoint, if people who are, or have been in the past, responsible for violence, or a political wing of that movement, join protest now against a more serious version of violence namely the war machine, this is good news. Was not the Peace Process based on getting to know and understanding one another's point of view and recognising mutual deficiencies. Would every Peabe Process not try to wean people who are engaged in violent conflict on behalf of a cause away from violent methods and encourage them to use non-violent means? The peace you now enjoy was in part born out of thousands of encounters between people of opposing viewpoints.
A Peace process that would shy away from a non-violent protest against the war machine would be only a phantom of a peace process. War is not good for the children of the planet or for the children of Derry. It is not good for your business (unless you are in the weapons manufacturing industry and then it would be only of temporary benefit). Do you seriously think that any movement by the Real IRA or its political wing towards non-violent protest against war, in Derry, threatens your children with being blown to bits? The biggest blood baths are caused by the weapons whose parts are manufactured by Raytheon. I would hope that the Real IRA would move more and more in the direction of non-violent protest and non-violent action to stop the scourge of war. I openly encourage them to do that.
You imply in your heading that I am an apologist for the Real IRA. "Safe to give a name when you speak in their defence" you headline.
This is an unworthy and untrue implication. It may be due to error or ignorance, but the IRA of all brands know that I have protested against their violence almost from the beginning of the Troubles, as I also protested against all armies whether "legal" or "illegal". I did this, using my own name. This did not prevent me from associating with them or with members of "legal" armies.on other issues. As a pacifist, I am against all violence. .
(Incidentally, I know nothing about your reference to a carpet factory in Derry. Was your question about this also meant to imply that I am "guilty by association" with whatever happened there?)
I wish you Peace.
"From a tactical point of view, the actions of the protestors in smashing computer equipment were nonetheless inadvisable. A few thousand pounds worth of computers is nothing to a company that earns its profits in the billion dollar global arms market.."
Unless Raytheon have a data backup policy which they implement particularly meticulously the data on those computers can be worth many times more than the physical computers themselves.
And Justin it was "Did they know" who made the abusive comment about the "Peace People" I if anything defended them (well SOME of them anyway)
"So again an invite: come out of the shadows"
What do you want ? My full address ?
Don't get your point.
If people are commited to nonviolence for the course of the action that sounds promising to me.
Depends how much faith you have in the power of nonviolence. Pacifists are few and far between in the general anti-war movement...usually just the Quakers, Catholic Workers et al.
Seems fair enough that people should work on principles of direct democracy and nonviolence for these resistance actions at Shannn and Raytheon. I tend to think that nonviolence is so powwrful it will have an effect on those undertaking it. You seem worried tha the nonviolent activists will be corrupted by the other folks?
Interesting to note the commitment of (fairly elderly and who had spent many years in U.S. prisons) Peurto Rican nationalist guerrillas to the principles of nonviolence in successfully ridding the island of Vieques of the U.S. Navy and it's polluing bombing campaign.
Maybe you should affirm the change of tactics of thee folks you have a problem with ...at the moment you sound like your damning them if they do and damning themif they don't.
The quotation you attribute to me is not mine. Are you saying that Mad Jack Mc Madd = "Did you know?
I haven't the slightest interest in your address nor in your trolling
A post, or part of a post, has not appeared. No doubt an error in posting on my part.
In any case it was a reply to Justin Morahan above, in his 24 points, as to why he opposes Israel..
The quotes I used were from an eminent historian H Sachar and in it he says some things that give a very different version of what happened in the 1947 to 1949 war. the issue of the refugees is involved in this. Do not forget either that a million refugees came from the Arab and Islamist countries into Israel and elsewhere in fact.
I would say that until there is clarity on the history of this issue little headway can be made in Ireland.
"Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, promised right before the 1948 war that, “This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.”
Sachar, H. 1982. A history of Israel: From the rise of Zionism to our time. New York: Knopf. (p.333)
And right before the Six Day War of 1967, the Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser said, “We shall not enter Palestine [meaning Israel] with its soil covered in sand. We shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood.”
“. . .Syria used the Golan Heights, which tower 3,000 feet above the Galilee, to shell Israeli farms and villages. Syria’s attacks grew more frequent in 1965 and 1966, while Nasser’s rhetoric became increasingly bellicose: ‘We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand,’ he said on March 8, 1965. ‘We shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood.’”
SOURCE: Sachar, H. 1982. A history of Israel: From the rise of Zionism to our time. New York: Knopf. (p.616)
If readers look at these quotes carefully they will see a certain use of language and remember this was in 1948. massacres. Momentous massacres. saturating the ground with blood etc.
remember also earlier I quoted from the hezbullah television where it is using the old canard of the Blood Libel. etc etc.
I wonder what is the possible reply of those who oppose israel on this site to these issues.
Raytheon, the arms manufacturer and purveyor of death and destruction technology has just announced it is making available its new microwave crowd control weapon called 'Silent Guard'.
Up to recently any mention of microwave weapons used to cause cries of conspiracy etc, but no more as Raytheon itself proudly announces: "available now and ready for action,". It says that the weapon can "de-escalate aggression" at 250 yards, Raytheon states in its best defense-speak.
Here's some of the specification from the company promotional:
Range: Greater than 250 meters*
Targeting: Stationary firing position with 360-degree coverage
Integrated sensors with joystick control
Single-man operation
System Setup: Automatic target tracking
Modular architecture
Secure antenna stabilization platform – able to operate in 40 mph winds
Mission Profile: Less than 2-second retargeting capability
Shoot-and-scoot capability
Less than 2 seconds to switch from standby mode to armed
We can also see from the company material as in attached photo that they expect this to be used on you and me -as evidence by the ordinary looking people in the photo. I guess they are anti-war protestors. But why of course protesting against war is supporting terrorism, especially since John Reid, Home Secretary in UK, recently strongly implied that.
But really this new technological marvel is great isn't it? I wonder if any of the development for this took place in Derry?
In reality of course this is a dangerous weapon and the limited reports back from those associated with it's testing is that it gives a very severe and sharp pain and none of those exposed wanted to take part in the tests again. It is likely it would cause immediate panic and enormous fear in any crowd that is subjected to it.
So we must ask ourselves, if this weapon was used on a crowd of people containing, very young and very old people and others with any kind of medical problem, we can be sure that a weapon of this type is highly likely to cause significant injury and even death.
This weapon is straight out of science fiction of just a few years ago, but it is not the future that many of us thought would arise. Unfortunately it has.
Raytheon's new crowd control microwave weapon
What a perfect answer to all those who argued that Raytheon was this small and innocent little software development company minding its own business and providing us all ungrateful Paddies with work to feed our families.
Well done.
Justin
If my comments inferred that you were guilty by association with the past actions of the Real IRA or if you were an apologist for them than I apologise.
Now that I am convinced you are who you said you are I can state that I am familiar with your work in the past and believe it or not I do respect you for it. I know you have been active all over the country and have done a great deal to fight injustice and make known the plight of the under-dog.
I hear what you are saying about people moving past using violence and embracing non-violent protest as a legitimate means of achieving their aims. While I pray you are right I must admit I remain very skeptical about the Real IRA et al as their recent actions in Newry have done little to convince me otherwise. I only hope that you are right and that the people with dissident Republican connections who now campagin in Derry have evolved to a point where they realise that violence is not the answer.
May I offer you peace also and best wishes for your future endeavours to bring a permanent peace to our island.
Ciaron
"You seem worried tha the nonviolent activists will be corrupted by the other folks?"
Not at all Ciaron. Nothing could be further from my reasoning. My main concern is that by offering support and encouragement to the other folks as you call them, it will encourage them to use more extreme methods in the future to achieve their aims.
"Maybe you should affirm the change of tactics of thee folks you have a problem with"
Maybe in time, but hard liners don't soften up in the blink of an eye. I will continue to remain very skeptical about the other folks for a long time. If their actions remain within the boundaries of legitimate peaceful and non-violent protest then maybe my view of them will change. Until then I will continue to regard them with mistrust, based upon the past actions of their associates. Blood, after all, does not wash away so easily.
Raytheon is also offering to supply AMRAAMs for whichever jet India chooses, to be used, presumably, to shoot Pakistan's Lockheed Martin F16s out of the sky.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/columnists/eamon...02775
Pub Quiz in aid of defence fund for Raytheon 9
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77997
I wonder if any of the development for this took place in Derry?
Terence if you were honest you might have said that it was funded by the DOD for homeland security, this for the dumb means all the funds are spent in the US so the answer to your question is in the matierial you put a link to i.e NO. next time do your research, bit like the Factory that is in fact an office or was it a Plant..lol
you people would do anything to try to excuse CRIMINAL damage
Some of my friends (yes I do have friends though admittedly not many on Indymedia Ireland) have been saying to me that I made a mistake getting tangled up with Justin Morahan of the Peace Movement of Northern Ireland (of Betty and Mairead nororiety) on this speaking in a personal capacity basis business. But I am not so sure.
One thing that has been shown on this thread so far is that a very leading member of the Peace Movement of Northern Ireland has got the most extreme pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli views. Since Morahan has got extreme pro-Palestinian views that places him pretty much inevitably BEHIND the Islamofascist Hezbullah and behind the continual attacks which the Iranian Mullocracy has been making against the very existence of Israel.
Now the Peace Movement of Northern Ireland insofar as it actually fields any kind of executive in the area of political action will have a duty to either expel Morahan or/and issue some kind of statement on Indymedia or elsewhere to state where they stand and whether they too are an anti-Israel organization. As it stands on this thread, at this moment in time, then they certainly are that and more.
What a revelation that is for our Northern readers. That these pious folk of the Belfast peace Movement, with their candle processions and all that humbug, should now be lining up behind Hezbullah.
You think that is too strong. Well Morahan has had days now to respond and tell us exactly where he stands on this fascist Hezbullah movement and he has refused. I print material on the anti-Semitism which comes out of Hezbullah television and which is beamed all over the world and he does not even comment upon that material.
All this was contained in a slightly hidden form in the initial points made by Morahan above in which he talked about a lady called Butterly bearing “witness” to Peace. But Butterly is known best of all for her obsessional hatred for the Israeli state and for her equally obsessional support for every form of Fascist opposition by Fatah, Hamas and Hezbullah over many years.
Usually a statement like that from Morahan would have went without comment. Here, however, my intervention has exposed where Morahan (and the Peace Movement of Northern Ireland of which he is such a leading member?) actually does stand on supporting anti-Semitic opposition to Israel in the Middle East on the part of the Fascist Hamas, Fatah and of Hezbullah.
Morahan has placed down in 24 unforgettable and quite disgraceful points what amounts to a diatribe against Israel If one read those points one would think that Israel started the war in 1948 and again started the wars in 1967 and 1973, (See the words of the Arab leaders themselves above)
Morahan has therefore placed down more or less the complete (completely rotten) programme of the Irish anti-war movement which is really just a cover used by the pro-Islamofascist SWP and others in the Irish “Left” who have this strange obsessional hatred for Israel, the little piece of land that Jews have made into their Homeland.
This is not really about the Peace Movement and the Anti-War Movement and its joining together with Republicans, it is about all of them joined together in hatred for Israel. I ask again why this obsessional hatred? And why support the Fascist Hezbullah?
Why do you imagine that Justin M is obliged to surrender and capitulate to your extreme pro-Israeli fanaticism? You haven't made the slightest effort to engage anyone on this site in arguments, you've just repeated the same tiresome, obessional monologue in all your posts: 'anyone who dares to criticise Israel is an anti-Semite and a Fascist by definition, nobody is allowed to question this, it just is, it just is, it just is! Look at me, look at me, look at me! Why won't you all just admit that I'm right!" That's a fair summary of your contributions.
Just take this most recent outburst for an example: "Butterly is known best of all for her obsessional hatred for the Israeli state and for her equally obsessional support for every form of Fascist opposition by Fatah, Hamas and Hezbullah over many years."
You really think you're going to impress anyone with that kind of crude personal abuse, nasty, spiteful, dishonest ravings, shameless attempts at character assassination without any foundation? Go vent your spleen somewhere else where you might have a chance of being listened to.
I think what this person is trying to say is that a peace movement and its people --are about peace not about taking sides. This is a serious issue in the republic as real peace activists are/have been clouded over by ones who take sides i.e they object to Israel and israel only(or UK or US) --therefore they are not true peace activists but merely propaganda tools of the palistinians military tools/wings(HAMAS) PLO etc thus making there claims of non bias ludicrous.
a small example, when suicide bombers go off i do not see them condemning the blatent killing
there are 2 sides to every story, any peace activist worth their salt knows this, they also know that they are there to try to stop the violence not to encourage any one side
given the rantings on this site it is plain that there are not many true peace activists but in fact a network of loosely affiliated people that share the same hatred of Israel and the usual suspects that the left always hate
Its a shame because a lot of people will never go near a so called irish peace party because of the apparent bias, supporting hamas at an antiwar rally is a small example, calling for jihad etc etc at an antiwar rally. Those who were at those rallies will know who i am referring to
you lose soo so so so much support with those kind of shenanigans that it is just not funny any more
good luck, god bless and try to tone down your blatent rhetoric
No, there's absolutely no reason why anti-war activists aren't allowed take sides, and there's no reason why they have to say 'they're all equally bad' either. Anyone who wants peace and justice in the Middle East should be taking the side of the Lebanese and Palestian peoples against the Israeli government. This does NOT mean supporting everything Hamas or Hizbullah do and say. There are a handful of groups and individuals with little or no support who take that view, but they are NOT representative of the anti-war movement as a whole.
Anyway, that's not the argument that Felix Quigley has been making on this site. He has been shrieking incessantly that everyone who criticises Israel is a Fascist and an anti-Semite, and even tried to deny that the IDF was responsible for the killing of civilians at Qana. He has some nerve denouncing Justin M. and demanding that he be expelled, when Felix himself is an enthusiastic defender of terrorism and slaughter of innocent people.
I was away from home and without access to computers for four days attending two funerals, (Yes, life goes on - and death - and even though you make what you think is a significant comment or cut-and-paste about Hizbollah on Indymedia Ireland, the world doesn't stop). My own friends also think that because I have answered you a number of times, I should not bother to have to repeat it ad nauseam. But then you keep repeating or insinuating that I support Hizbollah and will not comment on them (even though I have nothing to do with them) and that somehow through me the Peace People are also to blame, so let me just remind you of what I already wrote on this thread:
(1) "I support no act of violence against any human or animal, I do not support Hamas or Hezbullah insofar as they engage in such acts"
(2)"I also reject outright as another preposterous and slanderous allegation that I am lining up behind "the Islamofascists of the Fatah-Hamas-Hezbvollah movement, the aim of which is to destroy the State of Israel and to engineer another Holocaust." (sic)"
(3) "You deny me the right to speak for myself, I see, because I have already made it clear that I do not support Hamas or Hizblollah, that I come from a position of non-violence and opposition to all war.
Typically, you prefer your own version of where I stand, and, as I expected, you want to brand me a "hater of Israel".
Worse than that, because you again attempt to deny me the right to speak for myself, you damn the "Peace Movement of Northern Ireland" (sic) with the same slander that you have levelled against me.
Again this won't wash. Much as you would like it, even you cannot deny the right to anyone to speak in a personal capacity.
Your resultant conclusion is that "Peace is a cover and they are really about war on Israel, and on the Jews who formed and still defend Israel from Fascism."
That statement is beneath contempt. It is the very opposite of truth. It happens also to be an excellent example of the "Fallacy of Many Questions" "
The above three points and similar ones are on this thread
This will be my last answer to you on this subject until you make some other absolutely shocking allegations that are without substance - and until they are removed.
Meanwhile, Shalom
..it's not a football match.
Old anarcho sayimg,
"If they ever give you two options,
always choose the third!"
raytheons making a killing no matter what people says !
Good job for the 9 people :D(yn)
I see a lot of people being shoved around by police. I am an American, and I am not completely in tune with Irish Law, but here in the US we have the right to assemble. Assemble does not mean march down the streets, disrupting the freedoms of the local community who are just trying to get home from work, and feed their families. In order to have a legal protest march, a permit must be applied for throught the city, county, or the state. Parts of the permit process and paperwork include, sanitation, location, times and dates and expected number of people to attend. Location, time and date are inportant so that police schedules can be rotated. believe it or not, the police are there to also protect the legal protestor. Many times counter protests spring up and try to instigate physical violence between opposite groups, and the police will come between them. Sanitation measures are also very important. an all day protest must have "port-a-johns" set up, as well as water and potentially a first aid station. A legal protest downtown, does not mean protestors can hop into a business to use the restroom.
The point I'm trying to make in all this is the rest of the world's "silent majority" is not impressed or moved by acts of vandalism, breaking and entering, tresspassing, and screaming obscenities at the police. Go to the local government and get permits. if the permit is denied, find out why, make changes in your protest to comply with the standards, and get a legal permit.
finally. if you do not like the elected officials in your government, vote into the office a person who represents you. In the US, every law on the books can be changed (so long as the law is in line with the Constitution) I'm pretty sure the laws in Beautiful Ireland are in the same fashion.
BTW-
I never voted for Bush, I have never been in favor of the "war on terror" and I vote in every election.
Raytheon waddya gonn do with em?,
you can't take em anywhere (there already there!)
Link-Raytheon employee airlifted out of Antartic after Christmas punch up.......
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,223264....html
Hi ya Wilrycar
"I am an American, and I am not completely in tune with Irish Law, but here in the US we have the right to assemble. Assemble does not mean march down the streets, disrupting the ...."
News for you, this part of Ireland is occupied by Britain ( a source of local controversy for quite a while now), so it's British Law the trial of the nine will occur under.
The nine were not protesting "drawing attention", they were carrying out an act of nonviolent resistance (remember the property damage of the Boston Tea Party?), there was no one to vote for or lobby to stop the ongoing bombing of Lebanon when they acted.
At the time Raytheon were involved in, and profiting from, the indiscriminate Israeli bombing of villages in Lebanon. There was no vote held on that bombing campaign, the attempted resupply of it through Ireland and Scotland, the effective resupply of it through England. No vote on Raytheon, the 3rd. largest arms company in the world, coming to Derry as part of the "peace process", not even a sense of irony expressed by the Nobel Peace Prizee winners who opened the plant - let alone a vote!
You end with the excuse you "never voted for Bush" - a not in my name claim. The nine seemed to have been saying much more -more like "if you going for the innocent in Lebanon, you're going to have to get through us first". Therein may lie the difference between legal protest you suggest and nonviolent resistance (the legality of which presently awaits determination in the courts)
The nine's action was taken days after a Dublin jury unanimously acquitted 5 people who had carried out $U.S.2.5million on a U.S. war plane refueling at Shannon Airport (Feb 03) en route to the illegal invasion of Iraq www.peaceontrial.com
We look forward to the same result in Derry and a loud NO to these unelected arms traders and death dealers.
I remind you of a quote by oone of your more celebrated American historians (a former bombadier over Dresden) Howard Zinn
"Protest beyond the law is not a departure from democracy; it is absolutely essential to it."
Howard Zinn
Video of protest in Dallas, Texas. Protest against war and President Bush. WDYC video nets national award;
Anti-War rally piece wins a “Telly"
http://www.whatsdrivingyoucrazy.com/blog/
2008/05/09/wdyc-video-nets-national-awardanti-war-rally-piece-wins-a-telly/