The joke is on us

by correction Tue Jun 27, 2006 15:23

Vincent Jackson is a genuine independent. sean.

by Seán Ryan Tue Jun 27, 2006 15:38

Thanks for the correction. I've nobody to blame but myself. A stupid mistake.

Sorry about slandering Vincent Jackson.

Good luck Vincent, you've a tough job ahead of you.

by Oul Dub Tue Jun 27, 2006 16:37

Its no harm to remove what is only a ceremonial position( although very well paid) from the greedy paws of the political parties.
All Labour were doing was to try and use it to boost some losers profile for the next General Election.
The title of Lord Mayor rather than Mayor is a historical one. Why get rid of it just to be politically correct?
We might as well start dismantling The G.P.O. and the Custom House if we are so immature as to have a problem with features of British occupation.

I dont know anything about Vincent Jackson but he can,t be any worse than some of his predecessors.

by Red Inc Tue Jun 27, 2006 18:36

Are Directly elected Mayors the answer?

by heh Tue Jun 27, 2006 22:29

...than a chinese honeymoon

by Seán Ryan Tue Jun 27, 2006 22:47

I don't care whether they're elected, or win the draw - clone one from the stem cell of a fruit fly if you wish.

Make em accountable.

by Map reader Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:14

What does it matter what he thinks of Bleach Lough? he's the mayor of the city, not the county...

They should drop the title Lord Mayor, it's not the same as keeping or scrapping buildings... buildings can be reused for new purposes... whereas a title, is something they expect us to call them... very big difference...

Crime rates can easily drop in Limerick... just depends on how you massage the figures... like how O'Dea helped cover up crime rates in Southill when he was junior minister at Justice.

Limerick is supposed to have a directly elected mayor, but they put off introducing that, because they had a cosy little agreement between themselves.... even with a few bumps like the self aggrandising and perpetually smug Diarmuid Scully (FG) snatching the mayoralty ahead of party colleagues...

by Seán Ryan Thu Jun 29, 2006 13:27

Tis true Map Reader, he's mayor of the city. But he should still have an opinion on this topic. And his opinion might have weight. Couple this with the fact, that the map will soon be re-coloured to break up regions, into areas that show regions decided by where the water comes from (by EU directive). Each region will need an overseer (a cushy job for some work-starved councillor). I'm currently researching this, so expect an article in the very near future.

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jun 29, 2006 13:45

There are so many inaccuracies on this that it is hard to know where to start.

Firstly the title in Limerick is Mayor of Limerick City - not Lord Mayor.

Secondly as has already been corrected and Sean Ryan would know if he read any of the answers to his many incorrect postings Vincent Jackson is an independent.

Thirdly the decision not to proceed with Direct Elections for Mayors was taken by the Government not by any Council

Thats enough corrections for now - no doubt Sean Ryan will give me many more opportunities to correct him in the future.

Finally of course direct election is part of the answer but will Sean and his like have any more respect for the verdict of the people than they ahve now - I doubt it.

by Seán Ryan Thu Jun 29, 2006 14:02

I'd prefer it Dermot, if you took your trolling elsewhere.

I made a mistake, and when it was pointed out to me I admitted to it and apologised.

I've taken the liberty of reading up on you. It seems that you have never made a mistake.

I'd appreciate it if you would clarify, by way of posting a link, that shows where and when the title "lord" was officially removed. And afterwards, you might post this news around to the media at large. They've never heard about it either it seems. Don't get me wrong, I've heard the issue discussed much, but I've not seen any results. My point being, that the title still exists and is still used. I guess you guys, just weren't shouting loud enough, as is your usual, when it suits you.

I didn't comment on direct elections. I said, if you'd taken the time to read: "I don't care whether they're elected, or win the draw - clone one from the stem cell of a fruit fly if you wish."

You may note, Dermot, but your lack of manners will probably prevent it. That all corrections, regarding me, existed before you arrived to do your trolling.

Typical of you and those like you, stealing credit, where it's not due.

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jun 29, 2006 14:09

Sean Your Ignorance is really special.

There was NEVER EVER a title of LORD Mayor of Limerick or Galway or Tuam. The title exists only in Dublin, Cork and Belfast.

As for whether the title should go or not I am mainly indifferent though have some sympathy for retaining it for historical reasons.

What matters is that it should be directly elected and should have reasonable power. However I note that you failed to answer my question would you have nay more respect for the will of the people in a direct election than you have for the Councils that they elect directly. Fact is that behond all the waffle you simply don't like democracy

by Seán Ryan Thu Jun 29, 2006 14:46

"There was NEVER EVER a title of LORD Mayor of Limerick or Galway or Tuam..."

RTÉ Libraries and Archives: preserving a unique record of Irish life. - http://www.rte.ie/laweb/ll/ll_t02d.html

eircom net Ireland-International / Irish news headlines from ... - http://www.eircomhosting.ie/content/irelandcom/breaking...omnet

BreakingNews.ie - 2005/07/15: FG remove party whip from two in ... - http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2005/07/15/story211...8.asp

Limerick City Council - Photo Exhibition at Belltable. - http://www.limerickcorp.ie/WebApps/MediaNotices/MediaNo...=1731

Get your facts right before you post Dermot. Tis ok to be a fool, but you shouldn't announce it to the world in general every time you open your gaping hole.

I have already answered your question (it didn't have a "?" and was a statement) twice.

I don't care whether mayors are elected or hired. I want them held accountable for what they do or for what they fail to do. Do I need to use all single syllable words for you?

As for my not liking democracy?

I don't see any.

No go away, you're way out of your depth.

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jun 29, 2006 14:57

Sean

Just two facts one in three Cities in Ireland the title Lord Mayor is conferred by Law. They are Dublin, Belfast and Cork.

Secondly while we have an imperfect system of democracy I would prefer it to the tyranny that I suspect people like yourself would seek.

by Seán Ryan Thu Jun 29, 2006 15:17

Well Dermot, that's kinda substandard of you.

I've already mentioned the Constitution with regard to this matter. And that's the LAW.

The title, "Lord" is a title of nobility, and is unlawful. Unless of course you wan't to name names and tell our readers who offered the permission, and that it was an open ended permission. And by the way, you've failed to deal with my having obliterated that other stupid comment you made, in my last comment above. As I've hinted already, I don't consider you just telling me I'm wrong, without qualification or proof, to be 'engaging.' This is an example of 'tyranny,' which you also claim to hate. (Maybe now you'll understand why I consider you to be a hypocrite).

You reckon for the sake of tradition, that we keep this title. Try remembering how this particular tradition started. Do you still pine for your English masters? Are your corporate masters squeezing you too hard?

Your suspicions, Dermot are thinly veiled, hypocrisy and paranoia. You have yet to add any news or information of substance to this thread.

But if you want me to wipe the floor with you - in debative sense - keep on with the tripe. We'll be examining your own performance and lack of ideals next.

by black inc Thu Jun 29, 2006 15:34

Sean instead of going from nought to cranky in 60 seconds, sit back, take a breath and see how much you agree with Dermot before attacking so.

You actually agree no more than you disagree but your tone of argurment makes you hard to read.

by Seán Ryan Thu Jun 29, 2006 16:01

I don't agree with Dermot black inc. I haven't attacked yet, I defended. And I didn't go from 0 to Cranky. I was going at that speed when I arrived.

When I do level Dermot, I promise I'll tone down, and only deal with the facts.

Just to recap:

Dermot says the Title of "Lord Mayor" of Limerick has never existed. I disagree and have posted links that prove my point.

Dermot pines for the old ways, with regard to retaining the title "Lord Mayor." I don't and I see it as being unlawful with regard to the Constitution.

Dermot admits that democracy is not practiced properly, but that he is proud to help with this.

Dermot has 'guessed' that I support tyranny, without any evidence to support this. And he's acting in a dictatorial fashion himself as I've shown in my last comment.

I'm not sure where you think that Dermot and I might agree.

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jun 29, 2006 16:12

Sean,

You actually have not proven anything except your own ignorance - relying on old RTE footage is a new one for the Far Left.

The simple fact is that there is a specific title for the elected Chairs of Dublin, Belfast and Cork - that is Lord Mayor. That is because they and they alone held that title prior to the adoption of the Local Government Act.

The Councils in Dublin and Cork have the right - not exercised yet - to change title to Cathaoirleach.

All other City and County Councils can call the office holder Mayor or Cathaoirleach.

Part 5, Section 33 Local Government Act 2001.

Now I know that Sean has little respect for the law or those whom the people elect but that is the law whether he likes it or not.

by Seán Ryan Thu Jun 29, 2006 16:23

Again You fail to comprehend.

Here's that last link I posted, yet again. It's recent and it's posted by Limerick City Council.
http://www.limerickcorp.ie/WebApps/MediaNotices/MediaNo...=1731

Go argue the point with them. They seem to feel ok about the title "Lord Mayor."

I have proven that this title exists. I have argued it is not legitimate. You have but waffled and tried to change the focus of the argument.

The title, "Lord Mayor" exists and is in use, and indeed it is in use by Limerick City Council as I have now pointed out twice.

As I've said repeatedly, the title is unlawful with regard to the constitution. And again the Constitution is LAW.

Now prove otherwise, which is impossible, or move on.

by MG Thu Jun 29, 2006 16:23

Your tactic of labelling anybody who disagree's with you as far left is pretty much the same tactic that nazi's and other assorted far right bigots use. You have no idea what Sean's politics are, neither do I. You should stop calling people that until you know what their politics are. It is childish and a terrible debating tactic. Please stop doing it.

by Emma Thu Jun 29, 2006 16:32

Not that I really care but as far as I know and being from the area that Vincent Jackson works in he is an independent and cllr in Ballyfermot and over Clondalkin Youth Services and not in any political party but I can be corrected just what I know from my own community.

by Topper Thu Jun 29, 2006 16:52

Well said MG. Dermot Lacey comes onto Indymedia all the time and abuses people, imposes his own labels on them and accuses them of advocating tyranny and mass murder without a shred of evidence. Then he starts wailing when people aren't nice to him in return. Pathetic.

by Dermot Lacey Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:58

Eh Topper,

If you read my postings I did not make the references that you claim I did - some other posters did about killings etc.

I do believe that Sean Ryan is Far Left and I do so from reading his posts.

I also happen to believe that the implementation of such Far Left policies are against the interests of ordinary working people and as for the title (Lord) Mayor of Limerick Sean is simply wrong and I have the qouted the relevant Act. While the title of Lord Mayor is not considered to be a title of nobility ( and I do support such roles by the way) even if it was it would not be illegal under Bunreacht na hEireann as Sean seems to think.

I can assure you that just as I am prepared to "dish it out" I am quite prepared to take it but I will not sit idly by while the Far Left attack my politics and expect to simply accept their judgement. I remain willing to debate the issues with any of you.

by Dermot Lacey Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:01

My last posting should read of course that I do NOT support the existence or notion of "Titles of Nobility". No doubt the thought police will be out in force on that one.

by Seán Ryan Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:36

First of all Dermot, you have no idea of my politics. Your ability to judge is quite shite as I've already proven, and you should take this into account before you attempt to label me.

The title "Lord" is a title of nobility.

My dictionary for instance says:

Lord
noun 1 a master or a ruler.
2 a male peer of the realm (entitled to sit in the house of Lords) or a man with the title of Lord
3 The title used before the surname of certain males members of nobility , e.g. a marquis, viscount, earl or baron.
4 God or Christ
5 A member of the house of Lords.

Take you pick and then shut the fuck up!

Btw Dermot, you do support titles of nobility, as can be seen in nearly every interview you have ever done. 'I'm the former LORD Mayor!!'

You have not answered a single point I've made, and by this I mean you haven't backed up your over inflated opinion with anything other than your over inflated opinion.

You're a joke

And a bad one at that.

by Dermot Lacey Fri Jun 30, 2006 13:11

Sean your ignorance is clearly allied to your bad manners. You have clearly demonstated an inability to deal with the facts or the real world so there is no point in debating with you.
Slan

by Seán Ryan Fri Jun 30, 2006 13:20

Manners are free, until you abuse the privilege.

Respect is earned.

by Seán Ryan Fri Jun 30, 2006 19:00

Unfortunately, I'm not prepared to do the heimlich manoeuvre on you. Better run along and beg Dermot your LORD and master for comfort.

by Darren Mac an Phríora Fri Jun 30, 2006 21:21

"As for whether the title should go or not I am mainly indifferent though have some sympathy for retaining it for historical reasons."

If it were a question of our Anglo-Irish culture being under threat I would agree we you. However, our Anglo-Irish culture is not only adequately catered for, it is almost totally dominant in Ireland.

We made a mistake in 1922 by not changing enough of the old British system of administration so I would welcome the belated change.

by Red inc Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:49

Are you suggesting that there is an alternative Irish Culture as opposed to Anglo Irish ?

Get real.

We have even changed the way we write Irish to better fit our use of the language.

We have had thousands of years of exchange between these two Islands and that culture is all we have.

What has this got to do with mayors. Limerick is not entitled to use the term Lord Mayor but does so anyway. It is not a conspiracy Sean.

Relax!

The point is that all councillors are responsible to the people at election time. The problem is that the elected councillors do not share the same views as you Sean.

Therefore you attack them. The truth is that the amount of people who agree with you could not put enough votes together to elect you to a Credit Union committee never mind a local authority.

I am not having a go but you must accept that no matter how much you believe you are right it does not mean that you are!

by Darren Mac an Phríora Sat Jul 01, 2006 16:19

"Are you suggesting that there is an alternative Irish Culture as opposed to Anglo Irish ?

Get real.

We have even changed the way we write Irish to better fit our use of the language.

We have had thousands of years of exchange between these two Islands and that culture is all we have."

I use the term "Anglo-Irish" in the sense of our Irish culture that is also British, not in the sense of two comparables.

I don't think we should get rid off all the remnants of old-British rule by knocking down Georgian houses or the like, but I would prefer to see the title Lord Mayor go as it has pompous imperial connotations to me.

by Topper Sun Jul 02, 2006 19:16

"Secondly while we have an imperfect system of democracy I would prefer it to the tyranny that I suspect people like yourself would seek. "

Unfortunately what you said is there in black and white, Dermot. Sean Ryan has often posted on indymedia and never come close to advocating tyranny of any kind, so you're just trying to smear him without any evidence.

by Seán Ryan Tue Jul 04, 2006 18:11

Red Inc, you're beginning to annoy me. Not because of your sharp, clear and concise arguments, but because of the lack of one. Like the muppet I sent screaming from this article earlier, (Dermot Lacey), you have attacked me using only the refrain that I am not entitled to an opinion, or that my opinion does not count.

I have argued and have done so consistantly, that the title "Lord Mayor" is in use in Limerick. And I have posted a link from Limerick City Council's website, where the very same title is used. Neither you nor your idiot friend, Dermot have dealt with this.

I have also consistantly argued that this title is not a legal title. Yourself and the idiot constantly argue that this is the case, and you try to spin the fact that I'm arguing differently.

Methinks you should at least read, or be capable of doing so before you have a go.

Try sticking to the point. If you wish to debate something I've said then let's do so. I'd love to send you running back up to Westport also.

As for your point about the possibilities of me being elected.

You're wrong.

The chances are zero.

I'd not participate in the party where scum are elevated well beyond their worth.

I'd prefer to bury the scum, in debate and in political activism. That's the point, try dealing with it.

by red inc Tue Jul 04, 2006 18:57

When revolutionaries such as yourself use words like "Methinks" the world is in a bad way.

If all humanity is doomed, if all those who try and change the world for the better are "scum" why do you bother debating at all.

Why not try and establish a brave new world? Why tear down all those who also try to make things better?

by Dermot Lacey Tue Jul 04, 2006 19:28

Sean,

Clearly you do not understand simple english and simple facts. Yes I do consider you to be on the Far Left - based on your postings. Yes I consider the Far Left to be tyranical and Yes you remain wrong about the title of Lord Mayor.

by MG Tue Jul 04, 2006 19:58

You continue to fling about accusations about Sean's politics. You continue to do it so now I am asking you to specifically point out what posts of Seans indicate that he is far left, SPECIFIC posts or points Dermot, not your usual throwing about of allegations. Also I am asking you to define what you call Far Left?

These are two questions Dermot which you should be able to easily answer cnsidering how many times you have called him far left. If you don't then you should withdraw your allegations, apologise to Sean and quite frankly grow up.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Jul 05, 2006 13:38

MG, If you think I am going to waste my time trawling through Sean Ryans many rants, raving and downright incorrect postings you have another thing coming.

I consider most of the tiny micro left groups and their supporters who post here to be on the Far Left. Many who post here on Indymedia - not myself in case you have not noticed - describe themselves to be on the Far Left.

I think a lot of people on the Far Left share with me a wish to see a better society evolve. Some are prepared to work for it and some just prefer to wallow in their own superior purity. From what I can read from his postings Sean Ryan - and it would be nice to know more about the person behind the "name" - prefers the latter.

by john Wed Jul 05, 2006 14:31

Your a gas man, dermot. Are you under the illusion that Labour is a mass party??? It may have lots of public representatives but its membership is nothing close to what a mass party should be. People should also know that all you have to do to be a ILP member is pay your subs and this is all that quite a few of its membership do. Sinn Fein are closer to a mass party (although not there yet).

So Dermot your posts are slagging the micro left from a micro centre left(ish) perspective.

by Red inc Wed Jul 05, 2006 15:32

I am a party member, fully paid up.

Labour is the 3rd largest political party in the country.

Sinn Fein are a joke compared to us.

We have lots of representatives because we have lots of supporters. Our branches are proactive and vital to the party.

Cop on and do the maths. Labour are bigger (much bigger) than Sinn Fein because we have the greater amount of members/supporters/voters and nothing you can do or say can change that and it kills you. (should not have used the word "kills" when talking to SF!)

by Green inc Wed Jul 05, 2006 15:42

Sinn Fein in the polls is growing close to Labour, they will soon become bigger than labour in the polls. Sinn Feins membership is bigger than labour's, and Sinn Fein get the biggest share of votes from the first time voters. Labour are screwed in the long run and this shouldn't be much of a surpirse when you consider the posts from DL and Red inc. We can expect a Labour/FG merge soon enough.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Jul 05, 2006 15:50

Wishful thinking comrade, wishful thinking. I have seen it all before.

by chris murray Wed Jul 05, 2006 16:12

Dermot , Why has the Labour Parlimentary Party refused to row-back on the speaking time allotted to the Taoiseach. Ruairi Quinn did a deal with FF which allowed Mr aherne to be absent from the Dail arena on fridays. The issue was never addressed by Pat rabbitte as leader of the party.

Why did the labour party speak against the criminal Law (sexual offences) bill but " would not impede its passage through the dail, despite the absurdity of section 5" (Brendan Howlin)

Why has the labour Party not asked for Mr Mc Dowell's resignation on the sex laws and the constitutional crisis it provoked that has lasted six weeks and is not abetting?

It is fair enough to want an alternative government but an alleigance with the hard right is hardly the way to go.

Why is the Labour party not composed of grass roots activists?

I personally was appalled to see Ruairi and Pat at Pride after your party signed onto the sex laws effectively absolving the PDs from responsibility in the constitional crisis , not one woman TD stood up, not one labour party TD enjoying full privilege in the dail acused Mr mc Dowell of failing in his mandate.

Local government act : allows a bureaucratic head to run DCC. (no Mandate)
SIB : does not include Poolbeg incinerator.

nine years of opposition and I was at the sex law debate. The labour party needs re-generation.
No-one from the Labour Party mentioned that the Ceann Comhairle left the Dail and the man who signed the church /state indemnity deal took over. (also highly questionable)

Are you aware of the disenchantment that people in my community feel with the' opposition'.
if any of them wd bother to vote. You have no right to use the word comrade.

by Green Inc Wed Jul 05, 2006 16:16

Unfortunately for you, you haven't. I wouldn't expect you to realise it either as you are not the brightest. Fortunately for Sinn Fein your postings put people off from joining your party. Your party is a joke, your "coalition" with Fine Gael proving a disaster and the next government will be Finna Fail and Labour. Your opinions of what the Far Left is, is highly amusing considering you are unable to explain how the poster Sean is and also your inability to define what Far Left is. You really are a gombeen politician, continuing on the tradition of Pembroke electing the village idiot for DCC.

by pat c Wed Jul 05, 2006 16:19

please stop the pissing contest and quit abusing each other. address policies. for a start you could all address the points raised by Chris.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Jul 05, 2006 16:24

Why don't you come out from behind the anomymity of Indymedia and debate on some public platform. I have had the guts three times to put my name before the electorate and trust in their judgement and they in mine.

Of course in real politics you do not always get what you want but you step by step and in a real incremental way make life better for ordinary working people. The trouble with the Far Left is that they actually do not want to make life better because it suits your programme and agenda .

by Mark Grehan Wed Jul 05, 2006 16:42

Dermot, you haven't explained your definition of Far Left at all. Perhaps you could do us all a favour and define it for us please, rather than call everybody who you disagree with on indymedia as far left. Indymedia have over 100,000 viewers each month, not all of these are far left. I think its well past time for you to define it for us.

by Red inc Wed Jul 05, 2006 18:18

This is the kind of crap SF are pushing all the time.

Labour are by far and wide the 3rd party in Ireland yet this really sticks in the craw of the Shinners

"Sinn Féin is the third largest party in Ireland. Sinn Féin received more votes in the EU election than any party North or South except Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. "

Rubbish, picking selective elections and basing national support on them is poor politics.

Labour will increase its seats and SF will decrease its seats at the upcoming election.

SF were counting on a boost from the end of arms but the bounce did not come. As they become an established party their support will fall off not rise.

Remember you heard it here first!

by Topper Wed Jul 05, 2006 19:06

"Remember you heard it here first!"

We will, and we'll laugh when the results of the next election come in.

I will admit, however, that there is a possibility that Labour will do well in the next election - if your current leader carries on pandering to racism, exploiting prejudice against foreign workers in order to scoop up a few votes. That is quite possible, and knowing how slimy and unprincipled he is, I certainly wouldn't put it past Rabbitte.

Tell us - would you speak out in that case? Did you speak out when your leader made a calculated decision to exploit and encourage racism earlier this year?

by Red inc Wed Jul 05, 2006 19:38

Ask Gerry to condemn the killing of Jerry McCabe.

Talk about "how slimy and unprincipled he is"

by Chris Murray - The Unmanageables Wed Jul 05, 2006 21:07

I am not using the anonymity of Indymedia for anything. I am in a feminist group called the Unmanageables. I am a writer and a mother. I am not politically alligned. I have been writing on Indy for sometime and I do not engage in party politics because I very strongly believe they are corrupt.
They abuse and debase the language that we use. I have been active in anti-war, women's solidarity (both public and private) and have written on legislation for quite a time.

There are photos of what we do and our actions all over indymedia. Currently a housing case I am working on disgusts me, because there is no advocacy in opposition politics and there has been little in the way of root and branch reform of the housing system which consists of depts that do not talk to each other, housing officers that do not inspect premises for their adequacy. the Labour party and other parties get away with the tripe that passes as oppositional politics simply because the people who are alienated from the electoral system in this country do not bother to vote.

In nine years of opposition the Labour Party have not rocked the boat. I know of people in desperate human situations in this city who are suffering bodily stress because of the let down and it simply is not good enough.

Indy media is a progression from activism into text. You ,as mayor did the casting vote that led to the first round of estimates, whatever about absences, whips and vote majorities. it was a vote to prevent the disbandment of the council. by John fitzgerald. the local gov bill was not attacked by your party and neither was the poster ban. That indicates a lack of political principle. I say it again you do not have the right to address someone as comrade, you live in a comfort zone which has allowed for human suffering. I am aware that you are no longer mayor, before you chuck that one at me, but Aodhain is deputy and was not directly elected.

by Darren Mac an Phríora Wed Jul 05, 2006 22:49

Dermot,

I have just seen that the Mayor in Ballina Town Council is referred to as "Meara" (the Irish word for Mayor).

Maybe you should think about having the same title in Dublin City Council.

by Seán Ryan Thu Jul 06, 2006 06:10

I'm hardly anonymous Dermot, and I'm not hiding - period.

I'll debate with you publically on any platform you choose, including one composed of only Lablour audience members, providing that the debate is taped and published here on Indy.

I'd relish showing you to be inept in your thinking and in your actions, on any topic you chose to lecture me on, in here and on many more, not brought up thus far.

You call me far left, but in reality you are clueless. You can label me thus, but of course this label also labels you relative to me, you're a right-wing extremist.

Put your money where your mouth is, or rather your ethics where they may be viewed by all. I promise you a very humiliating defeat.

So put up, or shut up and go cry 'wolf' elsewhere.

by Darren Mac an Phríora Thu Jul 06, 2006 08:00

I haven't up until now read any of the "debate" (well you can't really call it that) between Dermot and Seán and Dermot is strong enough to fight his own corners, but in relation to the title of Lord Mayor- the only thing I am interested in on this thread- I have to say Seán that your're going overboard by saying

"Do you still pine for your English masters?"

The debate can be carried on maturely without recourse to any of that rubbish. While the name has imperial connotations to me, I certainly know that that doesn't mean that any of our Lord Mayors in Dublin since 1922, at the very least, have "pined for English masters." Thats just extreme Seán! The title should just be got rid of quietly and without any drama.

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:02

Chris - all I can say is that you are wrong on every single thing you wrote except for your self descriptions which I presume is accurate.

by Chris Murray - The Unmanageables Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:09

Politics are perception , Dermot.
Thus I am wrong.
I know my grammar also.

You can play it any way you want. I know people in this City who
are alienated from the political process you so passionately defend. Lets see how many of them
engage with an election-

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:23

I agree with you on this one Chris. People are alienated. I do not defend the present political system. I am opposed to many aspects of it. I however also have to work within it and use my mandate to the best effect I can. In that context I am proud of my record on new housing, support for housing cooperatives, rejuvenation of Council flats. Community development etc. Not enough you say and you would be right.

I passionately believe that the best way to tackle the issues that effect and impact on ordinary people is a reformed and restructured Local Government system and that is what I will continue to work for.

by CCCP Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:53

Notice you didn't mention your were proud of your shameful role in the infliction of the bin-tax on the people of Dublin. At least that's a start.

by Topper Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:37

"Ask Gerry to condemn the killing of Jerry McCabe.

Talk about "how slimy and unprincipled he is" "

Oh dear, the clear sign of someone who's politically bankrupt, you can't respond to people's arguments, you just have to fling mud in their direction in the hope it will stick. Sadly for you, I'm not a Shinner or a defender of Gerry Adams, so I'm afraid you can't cause me the slightest discomfort by referring to anything the bearded one has said or done.

Now, can we have an answer to the question please - did you oppose Rabbitte's attempt to exploit and encourage racist attitudes towards migrant workers? Or were you happy at the thought that Labour might grab a few extra votes by pandering to bigotry? I can probably guess the answer, but I'd like to hear it from you...

by Topper Thu Jul 06, 2006 13:34

As I thought, you're totally incapable of engaging anyone in argument. You have to pretend to yourself that I'm a Shinner, you refuse to read what is actually on the screen. As I said, whatever Comrade Gerry has done or said has nothing to do with me, as I am not a member of his party and I don't have to defend him in any way.

It's clear now that you approve wholeheartedly of Rabbitte's decision to exploit and encourage racism. And you accuse me of negativity - laughable! Your leader, with your approval, has been pulling something down (tolerance towards foreigners) instead of trying to build it up. Good luck getting your unprincipled carcasses into government - we might get another tax amnesty if we're lucky. The FG-Labour alliance looks set to be more right-wing than the current government, which is saying something.

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jul 06, 2006 15:19

cccp,

I thought I had long ago answered that one and engaged in numerous debates on this issue. I am proud that my casting vote as Lord Mayor:

a) saved the democratically elected City Council from abolition.
b) retained the waiver scheme
c) helped retain waste collection as a core service of Dublin City Council and the employment of our workers
d) ensured that the final charge was considerably less than that proposed by the Manager.

I am only sorry that so many who claim to be on the Left still cannot understand the factual realities of that situation. I don't expect your agreement cccp.

by CCCP Thu Jul 06, 2006 16:36

Your version of facts may be that you "saved the democratically elected City Council from abolition" but everyone else will remember you for being the Labour councillor who sided with the FF/PD/FG gombeens to bring in the bin-tax, in the process betraying the "democratic mandate" you constantly remind us you have. Your tired defence is to dismiss those who do not swallow your spin and claim that only super Dermo knows what's what i.e; "so many who claim to be on the Left still cannot understand the factual realities of that situation" .

"the factual realities of that situation were that activists got demonized, criminialized and jailed because of your contribution to stage one of the privatization of what had been long recognized as an essential public service . No doubt you will be boasting someday that the full priviatization of bin collection will be a great step forward for the people of Dublin. I fail to see what you could be proud of.

by Seán Wed Jul 12, 2006 03:32

The title of Mayor in Irish is Méara.

by Kieran Walsh - Limerick Labour Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:17

Hey Folks, sorry for coming in late on this debate, but i havent been on the site in a while. As a Cllr. on Limerick City Council(albeit for only a short period in time) there has to my knowledge never been the usage of the term "Lord Mayor" within the city.

On official documentation or invites i get, the term "his worship the mayor" appears, but i can honestly say that i have not seen anyone call any Limerick Mayor by that term.

I am currently reading Matthew Potters " The government and people of Limerick" which is a history of al the mayors from 1197 to present day and it shows all the facts.

rgds
Kieran

by pat c Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:23

i presume you do not wish to be addressed as his worship the mayor? why not make that widely known and ensure that no such nonsense is used in any Council communications.

this sort of language is just a neo-colonial hangover, its time to freshen up.

by Seán Ryan Mon Jul 17, 2006 15:15

Allow me to post a few paragraphs from Limerick City Council's website. This is the third time I've posted this link, but it'll be the first time I've quoted from it. Please note, that at the bottom of the page of the link I've posted, there's a copyright notice. This means that Limerick City Council own the piece. The term 'Lord Mayor' appears in the piece. The term is in use and it's in use by Limerick City Council too as I've again proven for the third time.

http://www.limerickcorp.ie/WebApps/MediaNotices/MediaNo...=1731

" CREATE Project ‘Artist in the Community’ funded by the Arts Council.

Local children from St Mary’s Parish feature in Photo Exhibition at Belltable.

Lord Mayor of Limerick, Diarmuid Scully will join the Norwegian Ambassador, Mr Tuls Hanevold, to open a special exhibition of photographs by Limerick photographer Deirdre Power on June 20th in the Belltable Arts Centre. The exhibition, which runs until July 9th documents a collaboration between Island Theatre Company and St Mary’s Local Arts Group both of whom are based on King’s Island."

Now as well as that, I've repeatedly said that it's the media etc. that need to be told to stop using the term. I've never said, as Dermot has implied and spun, that it is official policy or mandated to use the term. However addressing someone as 'his worship' is implicit in describing someone who's titled. Therefore the council in Limerick are also using the title 'lord' officially, but in a cowardly and covert fashion.

by Red inc Tue Jul 18, 2006 03:00

All websites contain inaccurate information.

Limerick's is no different.

Stop getting your knickers in a twist about something on a website. Limerick's Mayors do not use the term Lord Mayor.

You have been told this several times yet you insist on bringing up this website as your "proof".

Write to the council or the local paper and see if you can't get an authentic and authoritive responce.

For a man concerned with facts etc you do jump to conclusions awful quickly.

Chill Sean

by Red ink Tue Jul 18, 2006 03:04

You haven't proven the thing "three times"

You have repeated your argument three times. That is a very different thing.

In fact you have offered no "proof" at all to win your arguement. Instead you keep quoting the same website. this is not "proof" and repeating the same argument again and again does not make you right Sean.

It makes you boring!

by Seán Ryan Tue Jul 18, 2006 03:25

I have shown that the term 'lord mayor' is in use. This is what I was arguing. Therefore it is proof.

Non-news bulletin board chat removed - ed

by Seán Ryan Tue Jul 18, 2006 03:46

"The Lord Mayor of Limerick, Cllr John Cronin, and other dignitaries were on hand to watch the spectacle. Mr Breen said: "We got out of the competition ..."
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=...=8913

"... demand for university status goes back a long way and indicated that I recall the contribution by the then Lord Mayor of Limerick, Senator Ted Russell, ..."
http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0390/D.0390.198905250008.html

"Brian, the son of Jack Danagher, the first Labour Lord Mayor of Limerick, had worked with the agency for many years before moving to Spain to run his own ..."
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=...=2077

"... Davin who is a portrait of George Clancy, the Lord Mayor of Limerick murdered subsequently by the Black and Tans. Davin is upset by this information. ..."
http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/S/0132/S.0132.199204090007.html

"It also includes the Lord Mayor of Limerick, Jack Burke, who is chairman of both the Association of Health Boards and the Mid-Western Health Board. ..."
http://www.irlgov.ie/committees-00/c-health/rep-btsb/pa...2.htm

"1921 - The Lord Mayor of Limerick, George Clancy, his predecessor, Michael O'Callaghan, and another prominent nationalist, Joseph O'Donoghue, are killed by ..."
http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/02Hist/3March.html

Some interesting sites making more mistakes don't you think? (don't answer that cause I know you can't)

Non-news bulletin board chat removed - ed

by Dermot Lacey Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:55

Sean,

You ask when such a title was legally removed in Limerick. It nver legally existed in Limerick. However

As I have pointed out to you before in the Local Government Act 2001, Section 32 sub sections (1) (a) the title of the position in Dublin and Cork Cities is "Lord Mayor" and
(b) any other City "Mayor".

Under the same Act all Councils are equally entitled to use the alternative titles of "Cathoirleach".

by Seán Ryan Tue Jul 18, 2006 13:20

Dermot you are repeating yourself again. And again you've missed my point.

That act you keep pointing to is younger than the title. It's a retroactive justification. And it doesn't cover what I asked for.

I've been talking about Limerick. And you might note yet again, that my argument is and has been consistantly that the mayor of Limerick is referred to as 'Lord' and has been called the same many times in the media and other outlets for public education, since and long before this retroactive justification (that doesn't cover Limerick - which in fact strengthens my argument that it is unconstitutional to refer to the mayor of Limerick as 'lord'). My point is that neither you nor any other official has done a tap about it.

For the record, I've not argued at any point that any mayor is not entitled to use the term 'Cathoirleach.'

Any chairperson of any organisation is entitled to use the term 'Cathoirleach.' Indeed as far as I'm concerned, anyone may refer to him/herself in this fashion, it's not a title of nobility. And it doesn't cause me or the Constitution offense.

by Lord Daithi - Lawyers Ink Tue Jul 18, 2006 14:00

The history of the provision is that it is based (albeit in slightly different form) on article 1.9 of the US constitution. It has never been taken to have the meaning that you are imputing to it.

Its primary purpose is to regulate (40.2.1) the actions of the State - referring like many other sections to acts, regulations, and so on.

It has never been held by anyone - lawyer or schoolchild or politician or protester - that a prohibition on "State conferral" has any impact on private usage or speech.

And bringing up examples from Oireachtas debates proves no more than that you can use search engines - you hopefully are well aware that speech in a debate is not pursuant to statutory authority (in language anyone can understand: just because Bertie or Joe Higgins says something in the Dáil doesn't make it law).

The second section (40.2.2) deals with titles from non-State authorities and requires the permission of the executive branch. This has been used on a number of occasions (the first section being self-executing) in relation to knighthoods/MBEs/etc. Again this requires an affirmative action (expressed as an acceptance because the Irish constitution cannot control the entity conferring in all cases, for example a foreign government). Still, though, it is frankly beyond all reasonable or credible interpretation to suggest that casual or popular usage somehow constitutes an action that is capable of regulation under 40.2.2. Funnily enough, even Dev's constitution isn't that tyrannical (in this respect).

Finally, note also the distinction between State (only nobility) and non-State (nobility and honour). Therefore there is a clear approval that the State can grant honours, if it wishes (indeed this is frequently debated in the Dáil but never brought to fruition) and indeed titles of honour, assuming that a court wasn't convinced that such titles were of nobility. Interpretation would then dictate that the difference between nobility and honour would be relevant - i.e. something related to a title or office would have to have elements that caused a difference between honour and nobility.

Therefore (moving from analysis to speculation), it would seem that any statute under which the Government grants a title like Lord Mayor, Lord of the Dance, Knight of Saint Bertie or whatever would, if challenged for unconstitutionality, be analysed for elements of nobility that take it beyond honour. Personally I'd be doubtful that words alone without privileges relating to a common understanding of nobility would ever be held as such, but as I say that's speculation.

by Redder Ink Tue Jul 18, 2006 14:41

Why is Sean getting so het up about titles? Kieran has shown that the title is not normally used and isnt offically used in the Council. Give Limerick a rest for a while. Why not bother Galway? Is the Green Mayor calling himself a Lord?

by Seán Ryan Tue Jul 18, 2006 15:06

Daithi.

I've given a dictionary definition of 'Lord.' It is beyond any reasonable doubt, a title of nobility, except in one instance where it's also considered a title of Godhood.

As for privelages. Are you suggesting that no privaleges go with either the title, 'mayor' or indeed 'lord mayor.'

I have not argued the legal validity of the title but am willing to do so if you wish, but I do think it to be outside that which I have argued.

i. The title is in use by the media and others - and it shouldn't be.
ii. The Constitution does frown upon titles of nobility, and no law or permission in existence has given this title to the mayor of Limerick.

by d Tue Jul 18, 2006 15:38

i. The title is in use by the media and others - and it shouldn't be.

Then write to the media outlets and complain. The Constitution doesn't restrict it, though. Thankfully. Try not to do it in green ink though.

ii. The Constitution does frown upon titles of nobility, and no law or permission in existence has given this title to the mayor of Limerick.

Yes. Therefore no legal issue arises.

by kieran walsh Wed Jul 19, 2006 21:42

If the title is used by the media, then surely this a reflection of the malaise that exists within the entire system. In response to a previos post, i dont know of any self respecting public rep that would want to be addressed as "Your Worship".

If Journalists dont report accuratly, what is happening at a local level, (which i can testify to) How are local Cllrs suppossed to show the general public the level of work we are(or in many cases arent) doing.

I dont know if the public in Limerick entirly care what title the Mayor has, but i do agree that the title "Lord" has certain connatations. I have had the same kind of arguements with my council colleagues here in Limerick regarding the issue of wearing robes at official functions or ceremonys. My point to them is that, we are elected to serve the public, and not to play dress-up or pretend that we are somehow better than the people.

All in all, isnt there something better to be arguing about?

by Seán Ryan Wed Jul 19, 2006 22:09

Well Kieran, since you bring it up, there are lots of things closer to my heart than the media elevating folks well beyond where they deserve to be.

There's the Bleach Lough Scandal for instance. I know you're not in the Co. Council, but you guys exchange greeting cards etc. How do you feel about this topic?

The Co Council has promised to reduce the pollution level in the river Deel to 50% and are trying to force it on the folks in Pallaskenry etc. And they're willing to have a young nursing mother jailed via the High Court to have their way. As you probably know, all new houses are fitted with a water meter. So in 2010 when people start being charged for water, a precedent will exist in the High Court that determines the quality of the water that is acceptable. Very sneaky, but very brilliant, I hope you'll agree.

Of course we could talk about crime and the fact that our current mustachioed minister for defence was junior minister for justice before that, and still crime got worse. But I spose FF are too easy to blame for this, and besides it doesn't help to fix the problem. Maybe those new yellowpack Gardaí might help when they come online, if they come online. It'll be fun when barristers etc. argue about powers of arrest, search and seizure and indeed providing general witness. They'll make a packet arguing more crap than ever don't you think. Not to mention training costs (whatever they'll be training them to do I dunno).

What about our old pal the Limerick Leader who've provided service to someone for ever. (they remind me of the joke about the ancient axe that has had only 3 new handles fitted and 2 new heads.) Surely something should be done about them. They've slandered us activist types many times now and they constantly get away with it. They're real fans of FF too, I've noticed.

I spose I'm rambling a bit. But there's a lot wrong with my home city, and every year the list gets bigger. Nothing is ever ticked off, cept its inhabitants.

We could talk about any aspect and point to major deficiencies. Roads, sewerage, housing, homelessness, violence and desperation and suicide.

I just though something as simple as getting rid of an archaic title might be possible to tick off the old list.

But I guess not.

by Kieran Walsh Thu Jul 20, 2006 14:53

Sean, I am not fully up to date on the water situation, but from what i do know about it, the County Council have been fairly dramatic and heavy in their dealings with the residents. They even had one of their own Cllrs named in the high court over this, correct me if i am wrong.(Noreen Ryan of FF has got involved in this, for no personal gain, as she is a GE candidate for Limerick East, and a Cllr In a Different area). I do admire the stand that the residents have taken in this, but i did wonder about the involvment of the Rossport 5, Joe Higgins and some others....i am not saying they shouldnt be involved, merely that their involvement adds some kind of bandwaggon effect, which merely entrenches both sides to their respective positions.

I didnt mean to sound condesending when i asked if there was anything better we could argue about, after re-reading my post, i accept it could look that way. I meant that in general, the people who come to me or other Cllrs really couldnt give a fiddlers what the mayor of Limerick is called. Just to give you some anecdotal evidence, during the recent protracted mayoral elections, i tried unsuccesfully, to get the Job, this was on the papers for a few days running, and to me, was top priority. When i went delivering leaflets, not too many people mentioned it. Those that did thought i was already the mayor and some didnt know the current mayors name.

On the wider subject of the mayor, people dont need a mayor for their day to day lives in Limerick. The City would still function without one. The mayor is only a ceremonial figure to most, however people will always remember a bad mayor(one who makes mistakes, or speaks poorly, or doesnt attend functions). Diarmuid Scully, last years Fg/Ind mayor was, in my opinion the best mayor Limerick has had in a decade or so.

Why the issue of the mayorality becomes so fraught around June, is that us Councillors, see it as a means of promotion(Not just self promotion but also Job promotion). I see the Mayors office not as an open invite to Chamber of Commerce dinners, but also as a tool in the ideological role the local council plays in peoples lives(Now there, i am also rambling now).

On Crime, its too easy to blame FF/PD, its a systematic failure by all previous governments to invest in facilities for young people( I dont want this turned into a debate where i am reminded that i am a member of a party whose members have served at cabinet level and also not invested in youth projects, because i am fully aware of that fact). Again speaking from my own perspective, i live in Corbally, which is a typical middle class 2.4 kids, back and front gardens, 2 cars, 2 parents at work etc etc. The question that no-one is dealing with is what to do with the 2.4 children after 6p.m.

I am not too far past the age where i hung around street corners, with nothing to do. Whilst i didnt engage in too much anti-social behaviour(I love that phrase), i was on numerous occassions asked to move on by residents(and rightly so, as people have a right to peace and quiet) and indeed the gardai, who on one occassion, threathened to put me on a JLO(Junior Liasion scheme). So taking that point, its an investment in our children and not in ASBOS that is going to lead to a healthy society.

Sean, to be honest, i dont have too much of an issue with the Limerick Leader, to me, the always publish the stories i ask them to look at, and they do it fairly and with balance unlike other papers down here. I do appreciate that they are anti "Anti-war" people, as i have seen from Indymedia and indeed some of the stuff printed with james kenny(US ambassador), Whilst i disagree with them on that, they have some realy good new, young journalists in the paper, Mike Dwane, Barry duggan to name just two.

On the issue of roads, i get 3 or 4 calls a week, asking me to put a few sets of speed ramps in various estates, its nigh on impossible to this, for financial reasons. The country is awash with money, we see this in the number of 17 year old males who fly up and down the avenues(these are the same kids who when they were 16 were hanging around street corners, who got a job and bought a car in order to be able to do something that is different, which is fair enough).

However it is not being matched by Central Government funding in Local communities, Ministers for Local Govt are an absolute joke, i reckon they get satisfaction out of deriding local Cllrs and Local authorities. Most ministers would at some stage have served on local councils, and they have it in their psyche that Councils are inept and self-serving(Which isnt too fair).

We need proper investment in Local Government, i do believe that Eamonn Gilmore, would be the man to do this. Without getting all party political, he has some very good ideas that will directly improve Local Governance. In university, i studied BLG(better Local Governance) and public administration in democratic states, and it is widely accepted that for communities to work, you need a bottom up approach,instead of a one-size fits all system.

Back to topic, when i finish here, i will ring the director of managment services, and ask them to instruct their staff not to use the title Lord, when refering to the mayor of Limerick. I intend also to use this site a little more in order to re-tune my political brain a little, so if anyone has any issues feel free to shout at me here or at kieranwalsh124@hotmail.com

Fraternally
Kieran W

by Seán Ryan Thu Jul 20, 2006 16:26

Thanks for your response, Kieran.

I'd reckoned that you'd not meant anything by your previous comment, but I wanted to let you know that the 'Lord,' argument wasn't the only thing on my mind. I think we're in very serious trouble and I believe that you too see this. Having said that, there's a lot you've said that I disagree with, but I'm comfortable with this, as I know we don't have to roll around in the gutter to discuss stuff. Disagreement doesn't need to mean war.

I disagree with your belief on the validity of outside parties becoming involved in the Bleach Lough issue. I've two main reasons for this and one feeds into the other. Firstly, by and large, there is no political representation, and support is hard to come by, as the Co. Council have put enormous pressure over the years on the peoples of Pallaskenry and Kildimo, and have even set community against community. A brief example would be planning permission. The Limerick Leader has done a piece on this, this week - I'd bet (though I haven't checked) that the peoples of Pallaskenry and Kildimo are top of the statistical list, for those who get knocked back. Anyway outsiders get involved for the simple reason - that together we are a force to be reckoned with. And sure isn't that the point of being Irish to begin with.

The second reason is a bit more complex and I won't go into it in great detail yet. Myself and Elaine will be publishing an in-depth account in the next couple of weeks (a few I's to dot and a few T's to cross - you know how it is). Basically, Ireland was split into 8 districts in the year 2000. 2006 is a very important year, this year, public consultation and organising boards made up from folks like yourself and community representatives, are supposed to be accomplished and be named. Public consultation is supposed to be complete by this year. Check out any Council website - no mention of this, or indeed any mention of meetings to be held, written in any diary. Yet these meetings have already happened for the most part, and nobody knew about it. Anyway, in 2010 this must all be financed and paid for. We'll have to pay for our most basic substance - water! 2006 is a very important year on the road to water privatisation. It's a national issue, and because the Bleach Lough Scandal could potentially set a precedent in the High Court for water quality etc., Limerick is the fulcrum upon which the whole dirty deed turns. The Shannon Basin is the Test case for all this, and is the only place where we can find no trace of public consultation whatsoever. Anyway more about this later. But I think I've shown why this is a very important issue and why outside support is warranted and essential.

I disagree with you about the Limerick Leader, eventhough I'd concede that it does indeed have some very fine journalists, who indeed possess a very fine and moral outlook - I even know some of them. However they are stifled by a very rigid routine. It's not just anti-anti-war either. For example, a few weeks back on the front page no less, they spun the idea that Orla Kaiser and her obstruction of the illegally hired (this fact was omitted) construction company, was about protest (the Bleach Lough Water scandal again). Even though a High Court judge had pointed out emphatically that people have a right to protest. The point that she had defied a high court order and had told the very same court whilst it sat, that she would continue to defy it, never got a mention. In this particular piece they even fuelled the community versus community issuse on behalf of the Co. Council.

I reckon we have similar thoughts about crime. I'm sure you didn't go into great detail on the subject, so any disagreement I could possibly bring up would be unfair to you. It's a vast subject, I'm sure we agree on that. I think we need to go beyond diagnosis, and we need to act. I think money is needed, but it's not the solution. State of mind is a real issue when dealing with this, and example is the way to go, in my opinion. Just to be seen doing something, anything, in my experience, will spur others to think and act.

Speed bumps, cameras, signs etc. in my opinion are a waste of time, but I'll concede, are a great money earner. It would be entirely possible to fit limiters in vehicles and put sensors/transmitters in strategic locations and force people to obey speed limits etc. This would definitely save lives, twould be cheaper than the cameras etc. but wouldn't be a great money spinner. This is why it doesn't happen, I reckon.

I spose I've bent your ear enough for now. Many thanks for listening. Listening's the first and most important step in representation. I appreciate the fact that I'm but one of the multitude and have no right to rip too much of your time from you, but you listened anyway, and not for the first time.

Thanks for the call regarding the 'Lord' problem too, it means a lot.

Fraternally,
Seán

by lordwatch Fri Jul 21, 2006 19:52

Sean email breakingnews they usually get back to you...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/07/21/story268790.html

A small group of anti-war protestors, including Deputy Lord Mayor Aodhaon O'Riordan, has gathered to mount a picket outside the hotel.

Good job A'OR, TCM less of the lord thank you.