Brid Smith to run against Cllr Joan Collins in the 2007 election?

by Observer Mon Jun 26, 2006 19:18

honestly it looks to me as if People before Profit is running out of road and the SWP are now focused on using it as a platform for their candidates in the forthcoming general election. To cover their asses, they'll do their best to put up a number of non-SWP members as People before Profit candidates as well, though probably mostly in out of the way places where the SWP have no members. In Dublin it will SWPers who run under the People before Profit banner.

In relation to Brid Smith and Joan Collins, the SWP might live to regret this stunt.

by Excellent choice Mon Jun 26, 2006 21:10

This is excellent news. People Before Profit are making great choices for candidates. RBB has been selected as a candidate and now Brid. PBP have the sense to nominate SWP members for elections. A genuine, broad community group wouldn't have the sense to nominate a SWP'er. Its just a pity that the electorate won't have the sense to vote these candidates in. This means that the general election after the next one will see SWP candidates running as candidates for some other front they set up. If only the public had the sense to vote these "genuine community" activists in.

by Johnnyred Mon Jun 26, 2006 21:23

If he was a little older RBB would be chairperson of the Womens Liberation Movement.

by Election pundit Mon Jun 26, 2006 22:49

It's no big surprise that the SWP want to improve the chances of Boyd Barrett and Brid Smith by putting them forward as candidates for something that the electorate won't see as 'looney left'. Putting Smith up against Joan Collins, however, will take a bit of explaining. I would have thought that Collins had the only serious chance of taking a seat for the serious left in that constituency. Brid Smith is not likely to get anywhere near being elected, so she is, arguably, a vote splitter. On the other hand, she might be thinking of the election after next - if she doesn't run now, Collins could get the seat and the SWP's chances (if they ever had any) will evaporate. In any case, the outcome this time will be that neither get a seat.

My prediction: Joan Collins will do much better than the SWP but won't get the seat. Smith will be way behind Collins in the first count

by SWP WATCH / Political Cult watch Tue Jun 27, 2006 01:06

Just Remember Swp people.

You must put your own name on each candidate. THE SWP name

Brid Smith will not represent any other group ever except the SWP no matter what she says.

Neither will Boyd Barrett. They will support the party line not any other

Are you really so stupid to think they will.

They are using you. You have been gulled.

How come no political group with any experience will work with the SWP?

Even fellow trotskyites of the SWP? Are they all stupid and you are right ?

Why cant the SWP run in their own name ?

Why do they always insist on using someone elses :?

IAWM, PBP, Globalise Resistence, "another europe is possible" all beautifull sounding brand names.

If they do they will be "outed" relentlessly " each time

No politics by stealth

Have a nice day .

by D Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:12

What is it that the SWP don't like with regard to Joan Collins? Seriously, I don't know the answer to this question. Is it just because she's not a member of the SWP? Apart from that I don't know what there is that they'd find objectionable.

So, what are the problems they have with her?

by Bamber Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:31

"Why cant the SWP run in their own name?"

Because they got thousands of posters for one of their fronts done up which says 'Not In Our Name'. At least they stuck by this slogan.

by Mark P - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:23

On the face of it, it does seem like a strange decision for the Socialist Workers Party to stand a candidate in the same constituency as Joan Collins, the left wing independent councillor. Not only have they been on a "left unity" offensive towards the left in general, they have specifically been trying to develop some kind of link with Joan. They carry articles by her in their paper for instance and both are currently talking about new broad left alliances.

There are some good reasons why they might want to stand Brid Smith in Dublin South Central. She was one of only three candidates of theirs to poll well in the local elections (she got 1,000 votes in Ballyfermot, nowhere near a seat but a respectable total) and is one of only two who might be expected to do reasonably well in the general election. Without her candidacy the SWP bring very little to the table in any negotiations for a left wing electoral slate, something they have sought for some time now. She gives them a little bit more credibility than a list of prospective candidates consisting of Richard Boyd Barrett and a load of nominal candidacies would provide both in terms of discussions with other people who might be persuaded to stand for the the People Before Profit Alliance and in terms of negotiations with wider forces on the left.

There are a number of ways this could pan out. It could be a sign that the SWP are having a falling out with Joan Collins and her Campaign for an Independent Left, perhaps over the refusal of the CIL to link up with the SWP's own "broad" initiative, People Before Profit. It could simply be a bargaining chip to be used in negotiations, with the intention that Smith in the end graciously stand aside. Or, it could be posed as a kind of sweeper candidacy, intended to gather votes in the Ballyfermot end of the constituency and then transfer them to Collins.

The major parties use that kind of tactic regularly, trying to pull in votes for their lead candidates in areas where those candidates are relatively weak. It's a very difficult trick to pull off however, even with the established electoral machines and name recognition which Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have. It's the kind of thing which could potentially go badly wrong. In any case it will be interesting to see if the SWP or PBPA announce candidates in any more constituencies where there would generally be assumed to be a stronger left force standing.

As a final point, the Irish SWP are actually unusual in having stood candidates under the name of their own organisation at all. None of their sister organisations internationally have done so since the 1970s.

by J Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:33

This is an non story dreamt up by someone who obviously has too much time on their hands- its such a pity decent people like mark are drawn into drawing all sorts of conclusions about something which is all nothing short of gossip. Someone posts something that they found while trawling the net loking for muck to sling and suddenly there is a fall out between CIL and the SWP. They all appeared quite happy with each other at the no to partnership meeting last week. What did you think Mark- did they look like they were fighting at that meeting?

by Mark P - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:39

I didn't draw any conclusions at all, J. In fact I pointed out that there are at least three possible explanations for this decision, only one of which involves a falling out amongst the left in Dublin South Central:

"It could be a sign that the SWP are having a falling out with Joan Collins and her Campaign for an Independent Left, perhaps over the refusal of the CIL to link up with the SWP's own "broad" initiative, People Before Profit. It could simply be a bargaining chip to be used in negotiations, with the intention that Smith in the end graciously stand aside. Or, it could be posed as a kind of sweeper candidacy, intended to gather votes in the Ballyfermot end of the constituency and then transfer them to Collins."

I'd be interested in hearing your view on which of these possibilities is correct, if any.

by I Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:41

How is it a non story? Brid Smith is running against Joan Collins. Isn't that the truth?

There are consequences for the left if everybody adopts this attitude. Will the SWP be putting up a candidate (PB4P or otherwise) against Joe Higgins or other left-wing candidates? This is hardly a non story!

by Dermot Lacey Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:47

Interesting to see Joan Collins become part of the FF/SF/ex FG/ Independents alliance on the City Council last night. It will be even more interesting to watch her squirm out of the alliance when difficult decisions arise.

by j Tue Jun 27, 2006 13:06

My view- SP have no interest in a left alliance and here you are speculating about some rubbish on this site re Joan and brid smith. Youd be better served getting stuck into helping build a left alliance or even better see you Thurs night at the meeting on fighting the new partnership deal. Maybe you can ask joan and brid themselves and satisfy your curiosity about this. See you there

by Observing the cllr Tue Jun 27, 2006 13:09

Joan's not involved in an alliance. She just voted for the other candidate on the ticket from the Fine Gael, Labour, Green and PD grouping. No deals done with Fianna Fail or Sinn Fein. Just a vote for her constituency colleague Jackson. Nothing like the agreed ticket that you will be canvassing for in the upcoming General Election. That is the agreed ticket of Pat 'theres 40 millions Poles' Rabbitte and Enda 'give them both barrels' Kenny.

by Amused Tue Jun 27, 2006 13:11

Wasn't that Partnership meeting last Thursday? Do keep up.

by Yy Tue Jun 27, 2006 13:29

J: "something which is all nothing short of gossip."

What are you talking about? It's up on the People Before Profit website. It's not 'gossip', it's a fact.

by Mark P - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Tue Jun 27, 2006 13:30

From J:
"My view- SP have no interest in a left alliance and here you are speculating about some rubbish on this site re Joan and brid smith. Youd be better served getting stuck into helping build a left alliance or even better see you Thurs night at the meeting on fighting the new partnership deal. Maybe you can ask joan and brid themselves and satisfy your curiosity about this. See you there"

I should have known better than to expect a straight answer to a simple question!

I have no interest in joining either the People Before Profit Alliance or the Campaign for an Independent Left at the moment, although I wish both well. That doesn't mean that I have no legitimate interest in what is happening with various alliances or what is going on in Dublin South Central. Like most people on the left I want to see left wingers and socialists elected, including Joan. If the SWP are standing a candidate against her, it is obviously a matter for concern. If they are not standing against her, but are standing a "sweeper" candidate as part of some kind of local slate then that's simply a tactical issue and I don't see why you need to be secretive about it. I would take much the same interest if a left group announced that they were standing against Seamas Healy by the way.

What's more your strange decision to refuse to answer a polite and not particularly intrusive question with what amounts to "none of your business" is only likely to give rise to more speculation here, including much wilder accusations.

by Aidan Kennedy Tue Jun 27, 2006 14:48

Are you the same Dermot Lacey who voted for the "Bin Charges" when you were the Lord Mayor, and correct me if I am wrong but did Joan Collins not opppose you when you were responsible for voting against your party and helped to introduce the "Bin Charges"

Me thinks you are yet another "Champagne Socialist" and you should reconsider your Labour party membership and support Joan Collins in her honest endeavours.

by Gary - observer Tue Jun 27, 2006 15:14

Interesting to see Joan Collins become part of the FF/SF/ex FG/ Independents alliance on the City Council last night. It will be even more interesting to watch her squirm out of the alliance when difficult decisions arise.

Mr Lacey, how short a memory about voting patterns. Who was the person? that voted in the unfair and unjust tax, that Joan Collins stood against. That chain must have made you forget who and what you voted for. If you know Joan so well, you will know she never squirms but stands her ground on beliefs and voting pattern. Unlike some. Maybe yourself, Pat and your press officer had one too many at the Pride march and it affected your memory.See Evening Herald for details.

by Richey Tue Jun 27, 2006 17:20

The real mystery is, why does Dermot Lacey keep posting on Indymedia? His arguments are always slaughtered, because he doesn't have a leg to stand on and his record speaks for itself. Other members of the Labour Party cringe whenever he posts (they've told me this themselves), because he makes it oh-so-much harder for them to recruit young members, given that younger activists tend to read Indymedia and have to see Dermot Lacey clowning around. Do you not have work to do, Dermot?

by pat c Tue Jun 27, 2006 17:46

He has as much right to post here as anyone else and at least he does it in his own name. I disagree with Dermot on a lot of things but at least he brings a different voice in here. Remember: the views that most of us espouse in here are only shared by a rather small minority of people. Dermot was elected to DCC.

We're not going to be swept into power next month.

So, engage with Dermot. If hes polite, argue with him politely, if hes nasty, then be nasty back.

by Gary - observer Tue Jun 27, 2006 18:22

The point I was making he has some cheek to have a go at Joan Collins. Its easy to snipe at people who stand up for what they believe in, unlike his good self who crumbled under pressure. Dont forget loads of people have been elected because of the ticket they are on not because of their own ability.

by Voter Tue Jun 27, 2006 20:50

If Joan Collins voted with FF then people have the right to know.

by pat c Tue Jun 27, 2006 21:02

"The point I was making he has some cheek to have a go at Joan Collins."

True. Joan is a revolutionary. bCompletely principled and non-sectarian.

"Its easy to snipe at people who stand up for what they believe in, unlike his good self who crumbled under pressure."

Well, he actually defends what he did. The people re-elected him anyway.

"Dont forget loads of people have been elected because of the ticket they are on not because of their own ability."

I doubt if its just the Labour ticket that gets him elected. He is a hard constituency worker.

This doesn't mean I would vote for him, he represents another point of view, Indy would be the poorer without it. He can be rather cutting and sarcastic; but so can I and so can a lot of other people around here.

by Non zombie Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:12

"If Joan Collins voted with FF then people have the right to know."

What a nonsense statement. Joan Collins voted on her own. It so happened that Fianna Fail voted for the same candidate as she did. You can't blame Joan Collins for that. I remember once voting in a referendum and I happened to vote the same way as Dana and her legion of rosary bead clutching zombies. Didn't make me a zombie.

by Zombie Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:44

Who did Joan Collins vote for?

by Dermot Lacey Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:06

Well first of all thanks to those who believe I hve a right to participate on Indymedia and I fully accept Pat C's comment that if I am personal and/or nasty you have a right to be personal or nasty back. Most times I try not to be - but sometimes it is hard !!

I am not going to go into the detail all over again but the facts relating to waste charges are rather different to the version of history so beloved by some posters.

I did not vote for the introduction of charges. On the occasion I was Lord Mayor I used my casting vote to adopt the Estimates which included a charge approximately E200 less than the Manager wanted to introduce. The alternative was abolition of the Council and total power on all issues being in the hands of an unelected official of the Department of the Environment.

I do however IN PRINCIPLE support Local Government charges. Just as Joan and others have some sort of principle against charges. I believe that a strong Local Government system is in the interests of ordinary working people and that such a strong Local Government system must be accompanied by finance raising powers. We must also receive the monies due to us from central Government.

In relation to the vote on the Lord Mayor last Monday night. First of all I wish Vincent Jackson well. He is a decent and committed independent rep whom I have worked with for many years - particularly on youth related issues. I would of course have preferred Paddy Bourke of Labour to win - but that is democracy. And before anyone goes on about lack of democracy I have reperatedly written that I support direct election of the Mayor.

My posting simply related to the fact that Joan Collins vote for Lord Mayor and in particular her vote for the Fianna Fail candidate for Deputy Lord Mayor against the Labour North inner City candidate Aodhan O'Riordain puts her firmly in that camp. That is a fact that should not be ignored.

As far as any Labour members who might be concerned about some of my postings (or indeed all of my postings) let them talk to me. I think I have proven my willingness to engage over the years. I am however grateful that the Labour members in Pembroke have repeatedly selected me and the electorate in what is clearly a very difficult area for Labour have twice re-elected me.

Hope that answers in a non nasty non personal way the more intelligent postings and I have of course refrained from those which were not.

by MG Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:19

Dermot, do you not think it is a bit hypocritical to attack Joan Collins for voting for a FF deputy Lord Mayor when Labour have previously voted for a FF taoiseach. Deputy Lord Mayor isn't exactly the most powerful of positions and if a deal was done to get Vincent Jackson elected Lord Mayor in return for a FF deputy there shouldn't be any surprises when this happens. Labour are dying to vote enda kenny as taoiseach and the reality is your complaints about Joan in this regard is just hypocricy.

by Gary Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:25

So what your really saying is your nose is out of joint because neither of your Labour (and I use that term, as the name of your party not as the great movement it once was) candidates was voted in. I live in Aodhan O'Riordain ward and apart from a bad handout pushed in the door have yet to see him. Considering I have been door stepped by Bertie twice and I think he might be a bit busier it seems obvious your party member did not deserve the position. Also as such a committed youth worker, what is your opinion of drinking on the street?

by Voter Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:30

Joan Collins voted for a FF councillor for Deputy Lord Mayor! That is incredible someone who says they are left voting for a right wing party.

by pat c Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:33

I also live in Aodhan O'Riordains Ward and I certainly received more than one leaflet. Aodhan is well regarded in the area as a teacher, community activist and campaigner against racism. Bertie doorsteps people and tells them what they want to hear. If someone is a racist then Bertie is with you all the way. If someone raises racist opinions with Aodhan then they will get an argument.

I'm not saying that you are a racist nor am I a supporter of the LP. I'm just giving what is imho a more accurate assessment of Aodhan O'Riordain.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:46

Actually, Aodhan O'Riordain, who is indeed a great Councillor, was elected Deputy Lord Mayor because one Sinn Fein Councillor refused to vote for the FF candidate.

There is no hypocrisy for me in this. As a Social Democrat (unlike others I have never used the term Socialist to describe my political philosophy) it is rational, normal and logical to enter into Political Pacts to advance my political agenda.

However many of the people who describe themselves as Socialists oppose such voting arrangements and in that sense it is hypocritical to vote in the manner that Joan voted on Monday night - particularly in relation to the Deputy Lord Mayor.

I do not support the policies of Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, the SWP, SP, GP or Sinn Fein - though of course there are aspects of all their policies that from time to time are supportable. I am committed to the goals, objectives and realistic policies adavanced by the Labour Party. I will use whatever level of support we can gain to advance those policies - unlike some on the far left who prefer to wallow in their purity than actually achieve anything.

by MG Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:12

Dermot, the Labour party describes themselves as socialist http://www.labour.ie/party/ yet what you say is a direct contradiction. If the Labour party are socialists and describe themselves as socialists then why do they do deals?

by Barrington Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:17

Can some one confirm whether Aodhan O'Riordain voted for bin charges. After the debacle of last years estimates vote, i couldn't work out whether he did or not

by Gary Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:36

I was going to tear into for the implications you made in an earlier post. Then I realised a plant when I see one. Funny that Bertie and I spoke about a lot of things but none of them race releated. Strange how that jump was made.

by pat c Wed Jun 28, 2006 13:01

What do you mean by a plant? I made it clear that I didnt think you were a racist. You obviously know little about Aodhan O'Riordan. Did you find that you agreed with a lot that Bertie said?

by Jim Wed Jun 28, 2006 13:02

Obviously Lacey is extremely hypocritical to raise this point about Joan Collins.

However, if Joan did vote for a FFer for deputy Lord Mayor, it is not insignificant. One of the defining programmatic points of the Campaign for an Independent Left is opposition to coalition. Yet, here on a local council, we have a leading member of this organisation voting for a candidate of the government big-business party, responsible for attacks on workers' rights.

The Deputy Lord Mayor position is not exactly earth-shattering in its power, however not voting for big business party candidates for office (be that Taoiseach, Tanaiste or Deputy Lord Mayor) should be a matter of principle for socialists. By going into coalition with these forces in government or on a much lesser level, voting for these people for positions on a local council, we imply some support for their policies, allow them to get into power, and enable them to use the support of the "left" party as a cover for their attacks on working class people.

If Joan did vote for a FF candidate as Deputy Lord Mayor, a serious mistake has been made.

by pat c Wed Jun 28, 2006 13:06

Finished too quickly there. I raised the issue of racism because you raised Bertie in a favourable light compared to Aodhan. Bertie sows division and spreads racism. Aodhan fights against racism.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Jun 28, 2006 13:52

Since the last Local Elections nobody has voted for Bin Charges as the power to set these now rests solely with the City Manager - as I have written before the transfer of this power has probably been the only achievement of the ABT campaign,

By the way Comrade Joan did indeed vote for the FF candidate.

by Mark P - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Wed Jun 28, 2006 14:17

Much as it pains to me to agree with Dermot Lacey, a vile individual with vile right wing politics, he does actually have a point about the Deputy Mayor's contest. By that I don't mean that some Labour candidate would be better than a Fianna Fail one - I have no preference as to which of two for all practical purposes identical parties holds a powerless position. I just mean that it would be of some significance if Joan Collins decided to vote for a Fianna Fail candidate for any job.

Can anyone more reliable than Dermot confim that Joan voted for the FF candidate? I would be surprised to put it mildly if she did.

While we are here can anyone tell us if O'Riordan voted for the estimates?

by historian Wed Jun 28, 2006 14:20

My god. Can't you just hear Vsyhinsky screaming for the mad fascist dogs to be shot?

Never ceases to amaze me how the proponents of a happy clappy world of equals have such hatred for actual people.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Jun 28, 2006 14:23

well said Historian and Mark the roll call vote will be included in the minutes of the City Council - Oh Happy days

by Mark P Wed Jun 28, 2006 14:51

I make no apologies about having nothing but contempt for right wing politicians, "historian". Dermot Lacey is personally responsible for the introduction of the bin tax into the Dublin City Council area. He is personally responsible for a tax of hundreds of euro a year on hundreds of thousands of working class households. That makes him vile and his politics vile in my book, and if that upsets you because you don't like to hear someone (anyone?) spoke ill, of I can only offer you an entirely insincere apology. I do have one correction for you though. I don't hate the likes of Dermot, they aren't worth the effort. Contempt is about the strongest emotion I can muster for him.

by historian Wed Jun 28, 2006 14:59

Good man. And I am sure that you are counting the days until you and your comrades have the opportunity of dealing suitably with all those vile persons for whom you feel contempt. Mean time comforting yourself with books relating the bloody deeds of the mass murderers Lenin and Trotsky. Thankfully, that day will neve come.

As for Cllr Lacey, you happen to hate him because he has different politics to you. I have never voted Labour in my life but I cannot say that I hate Labour Party people. Nor would I ever in a million years vote for a totalitarian party such as yours. But I don't hate you. I don't even despise you. Sympathy maybe.

by Curious Wed Jun 28, 2006 15:00

What about the workers who voted for Dermot Lacey even after he supported the bin charges. They voted him back in, are they vile as well? Do you want to take the vote off them?

by Dermot Lacey Wed Jun 28, 2006 15:03

Historian,

I share your sympathy regarding Mark P and his like. Not alone does he lie and have no regard for the truth he clearly has a total dislike of all but his own. Me, I like most people and try to see the good rather than the bad. The applaing tendency of the Far Left to utter words such as contempt and vile and hate indicates a depp inferiiority that thankfully real working class people have long ago given up. Middle Class Guilt is more often the reason!

by Mark P Wed Jun 28, 2006 15:18

Historian, you would be better off keeping your sordid little fantasies of bloodshed to yourself rather than projecting them onto the rest of us. As an opponent of the death penalty, I have no desire to see anyone shot with the possible exception of Coldplay. As for the likes of Dermot Lacey, I can't muster enough energy to even hate the man let alone desire his grisly death. Contempt is about as far as it goes, and it's certainly something he's richly earned in his record in minor public office.

You by contrast seem to manage to summon quite an extraordinary amount of bile in just a few, otherwise contentless posts. Let me suggest a dose of pepto-bismol to deal with that heartburn.

by historian Wed Jun 28, 2006 15:26

I am pleased to note that you have renounced your party's commitment to mass terrorism, as advocated by your hero Trotsky:

"The dictatorship of the Communist Party is maintained by recourse to every form of violence." (from Terrorism and Communism, 1924)

by tom eile Wed Jun 28, 2006 16:14

Interesting quote from Trotsky there . I did a word check on the Trotsky internet archive but couldn't find those words - probably a different translation. Which chapter is it in?

by Seán Ryan Wed Jun 28, 2006 16:16

I don't know whether Joan, voted for the FF councillor or not. I haven't asked her, nor do I intend to. This question is really a no hoper. So here's why I think Joan didn't support Labour.

Joan was a very important cog in the mechanism that finally overturned the Ban on posting public notices. This was an unconstitutional ban, that was the ultimate responsibility, of an unelected official in the Council's law department. I've named and shamed him elsewhere on Indy and won't do so here again. Anyway the Mayor has the power to table a motion at any meeting of the Council. A motion had been proposed by Joan the previous year to lift the unconstitutional ban. However it never got far enough up the list to be considered by the Council. The FG and Labour pact was strong, lead by a lackey from FG the mayor.

We told ye repeatedly to lift the ban.

Payback's a bitch.

Enjoy

by Topper Wed Jun 28, 2006 16:17

Try harder historian, you're losing the argument and embarassing yourself in the process. One party to the argument is coming out with calm, lucid points, while the other is ranting and raving with quite extraordinary bitterness. This does not help your case.

by historian Wed Jun 28, 2006 16:48

I was merely commenting on the manner in which your comrade attacks those with whom he disagrees. A central characteristic of totalitarian parties and cults. In the case of the SP this is pretty harmless because the group doesn't have the means to punish heretics and dissidents with any more than ostracism and personalised attacks. In power of course totalitarian Marxism always leads to mass murder.

Rather than attacking myself maybe you ought to thank me for analysing your condition. Take a hard look and move on. After all, the worst that can happen to you is they will call you beastly names.

A psychiatrist would charge you an arm and a leg for this advice :)

by Topper Wed Jun 28, 2006 16:52

As I thought, you live in a fantasy world where you project your prejudices onto everyone else, and you clearly possess the arrogance of all true loons. Since your comments bear no relation whatsoever to the political views actually held by me or Mark P (a bloke I've never met incidentally, whose party I am not a member of, but with whom I certainly have more in common than a ranting fanatic like you), they can be safely disregarded and we can all move on. Now, any sane people out there?

by Felix Wed Jun 28, 2006 17:04

Marks terminology did leave a little to be desired. It was verging on a maoist style Cultural Revolution denunciation. We do ourselves no favours using that type of language. We are the ones who look like loonies.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Jun 28, 2006 17:09

"Qoute I don't know whether Joan, voted for the FF councillor or not. I haven't asked her, nor do I intend to. This question is really a no hoper. So here's why I think Joan didn't support Labour.

Joan was a very important cog in the mechanism that finally overturned the Ban on posting public notices. This was an unconstitutional ban, that was the ultimate responsibility, of an unelected official in the Council's law department. I've named and shamed him elsewhere on Indy and won't do so here again. Anyway the Mayor has the power to table a motion at any meeting of the Council. A motion had been proposed by Joan the previous year to lift the unconstitutional ban. However it never got far enough up the list to be considered by the Council. The FG and Labour pact was strong, lead by a lackey from FG the mayor.

We told ye repeatedly to lift the ban.

Payback's a bitch.

Enjoy" end of qoute.

The abvove qoute is quite simply wrong and Not true.

Actually the rules of the Council are not that clear and anyway i am sure that Joan will confirm that I offered her an earlier slot to replace an earlier motion I had on the agenda. Unfortunately for technical reasons this turned out to be not possible. When the motion was finally reached it received unaminous support from Labour and I think ( from Fine Gael).

Try another one

by Topper Wed Jun 28, 2006 17:16

Whether you think Dermot Lacey merits being called a "vile individual" or not, it's a massive and entirely unwarranted leap to insist that the use of such terminology proves that Mark P has sordid, blood-soaked fantasies of a ruthless Reign of Terror that will eliminate his political opponents.

After a little probing, it became clear that "historian" made that leap because he's a fanatic who projects his prejudices onto his political opponents. Having read a fair bit of Marx (the only basis for deciding what "Marxism" is, I reckon), I still haven't found the bits that expose it as a murderous totalitarian ideology. I must try harder I suppose.

Anyway, I don't see any analogies with the Cultural Revolution and the comparison between Mark P and the Great Helmsman is about as tenuous as the parallels between Michael McDowell and Adolf Hitler.

by MG Wed Jun 28, 2006 17:19

Dermot, can you answer the question I put to you. You say you are not a socialist and have never claimed you were a socialist. Yet you belong to a party that claims to be socialist. Can you please answer the point about the hypocricy between your postition and public statements here about socialists doing deals and the Labour party?

by Felix Wed Jun 28, 2006 17:25

I was being a bit sarcastic, exaggerating in the same manner that Mark had done. Unfortunately Irony is dead. Neither you, Mark or I are going to embark on a pogrom if we ever get a smell of power.

But lets just be careful of talking and writing in sloganese.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Jun 28, 2006 17:28

I am one of many people in the Labour Party who describes myself as a Social Democrat. I think it is an accurate reflection of my political position.

I am not opposed to doing deals that is the nature of successful political representation.

Some people who call themselves Socialists opopse doing deals with other "not so pure" political reps. I have no problem using my mandate to achieve the things I want to achieve.

All I am saying is that the purists are now shown not be so pure - from their own point of view - that is not mine.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Jun 28, 2006 17:28

I am one of many people in the Labour Party who describes myself as a Social Democrat. I think it is an accurate reflection of my political position.

I am not opposed to doing deals that is the nature of successful political representation.

Some people who call themselves Socialists opopse doing deals with other "not so pure" political reps. I have no problem using my mandate to achieve the things I want to achieve.

All I am saying is that the purists are now shown not be so pure - from their own point of view - that is not mine.

by Seán Ryan Wed Jun 28, 2006 17:35

There you go Dermot, you supplied the answer to your statement with a single word.

"When the motion was finally reached it received unaminous support from Labour and I think ( from Fine Gael)."

Not fast enough.

Not high enough.

When ye as public servants were told to jump, ye didn't. Ye had to be dropped. This is why you must reluctantly use the word, "finally."

Are you now claiming in some devious fashion, that the ban on posting public notices, was not unlawful and unconstitutional? And that this was not obviously the case?

Finally.

I've made this prediction elsewhere. The age of Party Monopolies in Politics is coming to an end. And it's a long way down.

The beginning...

by Gary - observer Wed Jun 28, 2006 17:57

He who sleeps with dogs catches fleas. People like you are the reason Labour are seen as a party of self interested users. Who will do anything to gain power. You are right wing, left wing, social democrats, whatever and whoever it takes to get a seat and fill yourself up with your own importance. Not that you need to be to have your ego bosted. Your a third rater in a third rate party.

You never did say how do you feel Pat and his friends drinking in the street.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Jun 28, 2006 18:27

Gary and Sean Ryan,

You are both simply wrong. I had previously opposed the ban. I had offered to make a space I had on the agenda to Joan to have her motion reached earlier. Labour proposed a special meeting of the Council to enable a motions "catch up" - others did not support this.

In my view the ban was wrong and on many previous postings to this site I have said so. As for people like me not helping the Socialist or Far Left cause I think it is reasonable that someone who is a Social Democrat would support the advance of social democracy and would oppose the tyranny of the Far Left and indeed the Far Right.

I am glad that Pat Rabbitte attended the Pride celebrations and No I do not see any great problem with him or others enjoying a drink in that celebratory and peaceful atmosphere.

by Seán Ryan Wed Jun 28, 2006 18:45

So what you are saying (agreeing with) Dermot is that you are redundant. And serve no purpose other than to make excuses.

As for Pat enjoying a session of 'knacker drinking,' - it's a pity he didn't venture down to Limerick, to enjoy the same during the Young Munster's match/victory. Gardaí were searching people there, making sure nobody drank illegally.

This is yet another example, where Labour falls well short of the mark.

by Sean Ryan Wed Jun 28, 2006 18:49

Sean
If you want to enage seriously on an issue I will be more than happy to engage with you. However if you simply wish to be a moron uttering fairly stupid comments then there is no point.
Dermot

by Seán Ryan Wed Jun 28, 2006 19:25

If this is an example of you engaging, don't bother. My time's more valuable than that.

by Barrington Wed Jun 28, 2006 19:25

so did O'Riordan vote for the estimates or not

by Topper Wed Jun 28, 2006 22:30

Didn't really notice the sarcasm because this little row was kick-started by "historian", who clearly wouldn't know irony if it massacred his entire family. Anyway, no matter really. For the record I don't think Dermot Lacey merits the "vile" label, but his party leader certainly does, so it's all a matter of degree I suppose

by Sylvia Dowling - none Thu Jun 29, 2006 09:21

To answer the question. Yes, O'Riordain voted for the Estimates. The Lab/Fine Gael Alliance with the exception of one or two Lab vote for the Estimates . They are the majority in the Dublin City Council.

by Clarity? Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:02

Joan Collins voted for a FF candidate who supported Bin Charges for Deputy Lord Mayor. She also voted for Jackson for Mayor. Did Jackson vote for the Bin Charges?

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:21

The new Lord Mayor has not to date voted for the Estimates. I have no doubt that he like every single Lord Mayor since the Council was reconstituted in 1973 will support them this year.

However it should be restated that contrary to the nonsense spouted by Joan and her like the Council members no longer have ANY say on the relatively minor issue of Environmental Enhancement Charges.

And YES Comrade Joan voted for a Fianna Fail candidate for Deputy Lord Mayor against the North Inner City Labour candidate.

by Barrington Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:44

but already it was impossible to say which was which. "

Ah yes, an answer at last. I think if I was a councillor I would have voted for myself given the options on offer. Its funny that Dermot is having a (justified) go off Joan for voting for fianna fail, when at the last elections O’Riordan promised me that he would vote against any estimates that included bin charges. I told him that he would in fact vote for them because it would come to a situation that some council f*cker would threaten to abolish the council and as the assembled councillors collectively cast their eyes to heaven can say in unison, "ah shucks, in the interests of democracy, we better vote the estimates through." But Mr Aodhan vehemently denied this and strongly stated that under no circumstances would he vote for bin charges.

Funny how peoples minds change isn’t it

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jun 29, 2006 13:00

Barrington your inabilty to comprehend is getting tiresome.

Two facts - whether you like them or not is immaterial to me:

1) No Council Official has the legal authority to abolish the Council. It is a simple fact that all Councils have a legal obligation to adopt a balanced Budget and if they do not the Minister has the Power to dissolve the Council. Personally I believe that to be wrong but i did not make the law.

2) No Councillor has ANY role in determining the waste charges can you and your allies not get that fact through your heads or are you going to pretend to your supporters that you have for ever more engaging in a misleading and in my opinion didhonest exercise in pursuit of a few votes.

by Seán Ryan Thu Jun 29, 2006 13:04

Do you know what struck me as interesting Barrington.

When the poster ban was lifted. A story started circulating in the media, citing polls published months earlier about how dirty a city Dublin was. Interesting huh?

I'd not worry too much about muppets who hope to be elected, whose only contribution is to slag off other candidates.

Vote for me, Mr. A, because Ms. B is a bad person.

Gimme a break.

I've an idea that might help with the bin protest.

As you know, the council are responsible for making sure Dublin remains litter free.

Leave your wheelie bins outside, and paint, "Public Bin... Keep Dublin tidy. Property of DCC. Donated by ..." on them. Donate this extra service to DCC. Or something similar.

Might not work of course. But it probably would get lots of media coverage, and lots of muppets would have lots of explaining to do.

by Socialist Party member Thu Jun 29, 2006 13:59

Dear Dermot,
Your constituents would be justified in asking have you nothing better to be doing with your time as a public representative than making so many contributions to Indymedia?
You have stated a number of times correctly that councillors technically no longer have a say in the decision to impose bin charges or at what rate they are set. But then this reflects your party’s "bourgeois" and "parliamentary" approach to politics. The Labour Party conducts itself within the constraints of procedures and the right-wing neo-liberal consensus that currently dominates Irish politics. You and your party are loyal supporters of the capitalist system and have bought into the false idea that there is no alternative to neo-liberalism or capitalism.
Yet there is an alternative approach that can be taken to the "technical" approach of saying that it is the city manager’s decision, there is nothing that councillors can do about this and then proceed to wash your hands of responsibility like Pontius Pilate.
That alternative approach would require a majority of councillors to vote against the estimates thus putting the "ball" in the government’s court. They could then decide to abolish the council and impose an unelected official to run the city’s affairs. So be it. If this weak coalition was to chose that path it would cause a major political crisis and put it in conflict with a majority of the working class in Dublin. Councillors would then need to be prepared to organise a mass campaign of protests and demonstrations by the working class of Dublin in order to put political pressure on the government to back down.
With the current political make up of Dublin city council this is of course a fanciful idea. Neither, Labour or Sinn Fein would be prepared to take such a course of action, as it would go against their pragmatic approach to politics. The only councillor who might be prepared to consider such an approach would be Joan Collins.
Having said that it is not just regrettable but also a sign of Joan Collin’s political shift to the right that she voted for a FF councillor for Deputy Lord Mayor and Vincent Jackson for Mayor.

by John - ISN Personal view Thu Jun 29, 2006 14:02

Personally, I think it a good development that Brid and Joan are running. Anyone who knows the constituency and the way people tend to vote will see that few in Ballyfermot vote for canditates from the Crumlin/Driminagh/Walkinstown end and vice-versa. Both Joan and Brid running could maximise the left vote? It would make sense for them to agree a transfer strategy. The biggest problem I see is Vincent "Ballyer" Jackson. If he runs, as I assume he will, the post of Lord Mayor will boost his profile.

Vincent is a good community representative and populist in his outlook but couldn't be considered leftwing and wouldn't consider himself such.

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jun 29, 2006 14:17

Dear Socialist Party Member,

Thanks for your advice which I will decline to accept. Your Party is quite simply an irrelevance to the vast majority of ordinary hardworking families.Your ideology is irrelevant to modern Ireland and your analysis is so out of touch and out of time that it is quite simply touching.
and

Yes I have lots of things to be doing beside engaging with windbags, trots and their ilk but I also owe it to my idology to confront those who would and in my opinion do damage the interests of ordinary people by their Lets Pretend Make Believe Politics
and WHY
would I vote to bring down any elected Council over the adoption of Local Government cahrges when i have consistently said that i support more power for Local Government and that includes finance raising powers.

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jun 29, 2006 14:17

Dear Socialist Party Member,

Thanks for your advice which I will decline to accept. Your Party is quite simply an irrelevance to the vast majority of ordinary hardworking families.Your ideology is irrelevant to modern Ireland and your analysis is so out of touch and out of time that it is quite simply touching.
and

Yes I have lots of things to be doing beside engaging with windbags, trots and their ilk but I also owe it to my idology to confront those who would and in my opinion do damage the interests of ordinary people by their Lets Pretend Make Believe Politics
and WHY
would I vote to bring down any elected Council over the adoption of Local Government cahrges when i have consistently said that i support more power for Local Government and that includes finance raising powers.

by pat c Thu Jun 29, 2006 14:22

"WHY
would I vote to bring down any elected Council over the adoption of Local Government cahrges when i have consistently said that i support more power for Local Government and that includes finance raising powers. "

If DCC had such powers where would you put the emphasis on for raising revenues? Would yyou seek to put super-rates on banks etc in the IFSC, would you go after business and the rich for finance?

This is a serious enquiry, I want to know if & how you would shift the burden away from ordinary people.

by Non-alligned socialist Thu Jun 29, 2006 14:30

"my idology"

I always knew Dermot loved himself. BTW, keep up the writing here Dermot it annoys the hell out of your younger party colleagues.

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jun 29, 2006 14:34

Pat,

Thanks for your question one of the first fair questions I have seen on this topic on Indymedia in a long time.

I have put forward a number of proposals in this area. The first is that i believe we need a National Forum with a six month mandate to try and develop an agreed approach to Local Government funding.

Through that Forum some of the ideas I would put forward include:

Re appplying rates on Government Buildings - in Dublin last years this cost us E27million.

Introduce as is the norm in virtually every other country in the world a small Tourist tax or Hotel Bed levy.

Introduce a Planning enforcement Bond that would make rogue developers meet the costs of enforcing proper planning standards.

There are also other methods such as directing a proportion ( to be determined within an agreed range) of PAYE or VAT to the Local Council

by Gary - Observer Thu Jun 29, 2006 14:49

"Joan and her like" That’s some way to speak of a fellow councillor, I am glad that you can pick who can break the law and who can not. Mind you other people on that parade had drink taken off them. It must just be the special people who are left alone. Then again your party is special a party for all people, left wing, right wing, social democrats I won't mention the other S word as I know it upsets you. Then you have Pat and Frank Ross an old pair of in-laws. What a collection of odds and sods.

by Pat's Politics Thu Jun 29, 2006 20:47

dermot, you continue to huff and puff but never blow the house down. If Labour are elected to the next government will they introduce Direct Mayoral elections and if they don't , will you resign from the party. You have harped on about reform and increased power for councils and if Labour, in power , fail to deliver, will you have the balls to walk away. After all, if Labour fail to reform, this will remove your cloak for voting for the bin charges, an act for which you are only remembered..

by Red inc Fri Jun 30, 2006 01:36

Labour have stated their policy on Local Government Reform.

Click the link below to view their proposals in pdf.

Dermot Lacey has championed the reform of local gov for ages and that should be well known to all the posters.

What about FG?
What about FF?

PD, SF and Green all support directly elected Mayors but not FF FG! They don't like the idea....I wonder why?

by Breda Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:55

"What about FG?"

Ask Pat 'There's 40 Million Poles you know' Rabbitte. If anybody should know about FG policy, it will be him.

by Raphael Hythlodaeus Mon Jul 10, 2006 00:12

Dear Dermot Lacey,

Your Party is quite simply an irrelevance to the vast majority of ordinary hardworking families.Your ideology is irrelevant to modern Ireland and your analysis is so out of touch and out of time that it is quite simply touching.

Dear C.I.L.,

I think that Joan Collins has to justify her position. It does give an indication of a drift to the right. She (and SWP) has to tell us why she only calls for 'return to negotiation table' on partnership and not complete opposition. She's a good solid record on bin tax in the opinion of most voters in Crumlin. However she'll loose her seat in 3 years if she doesn't back it up with sound political approach to campaigns and issues.