Israeli Army massacres civilians

by Fintan Lane - Anti-War Ireland (and Irish Socialist Network) Fri Jun 09, 2006 23:41

It appears that seven Palestinians were murdered. RTE (our state broadcaster) seems to have almost completely ignored the story.

by WhiteRabbit Sat Jun 10, 2006 00:01

1. The Pal terrorists strike at Jewish civilians.
2. Israel retaliates.
3. Finally there is a mishap and Pal civilians get killed.
4. Then, the international community is up in arms and Israel is pressured to stop or reduce its anti-terror efforts.
5. Then, the Pal terrorists strike at Israeli civilians again.
6. And so on, and so on...

That's war, accidents happen.

by Ciarán Ó Brolcháin Sat Jun 10, 2006 00:46

Why is it that some people believe that everything that Israel does is 'retaliatory' and that it's always the 'evil' Arabs who start all the trouble? When was the last big attack by Palstinians on Jewish civilians?

by WhiteRabbit Sat Jun 10, 2006 01:13

Qassam rockets fired on an almost daily basis, then there was this little incident, Apr. 17th 2006: Terror attack in Tel Aviv - http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3240687,00.html.

by arthur Sat Jun 10, 2006 02:14

When you see a little child in panic crawling up the sand on the beach wailing,because she cannot comprend the horror of finding herself amidst the bits of her family, a sane person must feel a need to send a message that the people responsible cannot be allowed to abdicate their responsibilites.
If this happened at Skerries,Newcastle or Giles key it would be utterly condemmed and those that couldnt feel angush and sadness at the victims plight dont deserve to call themselves human,certainly they have no nature. The day a person rises to heap injustice or injury on another persons child is a black day for humanity.

by Liam Sat Jun 10, 2006 02:36

First of all Arthur, Israel doesn't even want peace with the Palestinians judging by their action against an organization that was on a ceasefire with Israel since the Sharon-Abbas Summit. Secondly, the overall death toll of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict stands at approximately 1,600 Israeli's versus 4,800 Palestinians. Its not about retaliation or to 'make up' for the numbers of Palestinians killed, which vastly outnumber the number of Israelis who were killed, but it is about why Israel continues its aggressive policy on the Palestinians in the occupied terrorities. Only they can answer that.

by WhiteRabbit Sat Jun 10, 2006 03:19

“Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.”

by Ali H. Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:42

This kind of over the top retaliation was last seen in occupied Europe when the SS massacred civilians 10:1 for every German killed by resistance fighters. The Nazis also made similar excuses to attempt to justify the injustifiable. Eventually despite and perhaps because of massacres of civilians the Nazis lost the war and were forced to quit the territories they had occupied.

by Noel Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:25

\\\"This kind of over the top retaliation was last seen in occupied Europe when the SS massacred civilians 10:1 for every German killed by resistance fighters\\\"

And this over the top relativism was last seen.....well in the last post of Ali H. And the post before that.

This was an accident. Are you suggesting the IDF are deliberately targetting Palestinian civilians?
That makes them the most incompetent genocidists in history.

However, if Hamas or any of the other Islamofascists had the IDFs arsenal - genocide would be instantaneous.
But you wouldn\\\'t want to exaggerate that one too much.

by Ali H. Sat Jun 10, 2006 15:33

The Israeli killing of innocent civilians is both systematic and deliberately provocative. The pattern in Israel is to commit murder and immediately announce an investigation to buy time so the international outcry dies down, and they can announce that the state-sanctioned murderers were just following orders or some such nonsense. The perpetrators are of course often promoted for their "services" to the state.

This is of course not the first such deliberate attack on innocent civilians in Gaza . To give but one example there is the Rafah massacre in which Israeli forces fired a missile and a barrage of tank shells to hold back a crowd of Palestinians protesting military operations in Gaza in May 2004, killing killing 10 people, including children. http://fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=1263

Tony Blair denounced the attack at the time calling it "unacceptable and wrong."

IDF big lies:

"The IDF lies. It lies on a grand scale"

"in 2002, the alleged smuggling of “surface-to-air missiles” was the IDF’s justification for the home-destroying destruction of Operation Root Canal in Rafah"

"when the respective operations were over, and neither SAMs nor Katyushas were found, no one called the IDF on its lies; no-one asked why, if the Palestinians really have SAMs, they have not used one in four years of fighting; and if they have Katyushas why are crappy homemade Qassems landing on Sderot, rather than Katyushas on Ashqelon"

IDF smaller lies:

"And the IDF lies on a smaller scale. It lies when it says it is forced to shoot dead stone-throwing children"

"it lies when it says it uses lethal force only when soldiers' lives are in danger, even when international observers have personally witnessed the shooting of children who pose no danger to the troops on the ground"

"A 13-year-old girl strayed to within 70 metres of an IDF post and was shot for it. According to eyewitnesses, she tried to flee, but collapsed and was finished off at close range by a soldier "confirming the kill". She was said to be a decoy sent out by Palestinian snipers, but the fact is that there is no evidence such snipers existed. She was said to be carrying a bomb in her backpack, but the fact is that her backpack was found to contain only schoolbooks. She was not killed because she did anything to threaten the soldiers under cover 70 metres from her. She was killed – according to the eyewitness testimony of the soldiers who witnessed her death - by an Israeli officer who shot her 20 times at close range, with a burst of automatic fire so devastating that it severed her head from her 13-year-old body, simply because: "He was hot for a long time to take out terrorists and shot the girl to relieve pressure"

by Ali H. Sat Jun 10, 2006 15:55

"There’s just something about I.D.F. investigations that doesn’t fill me with confidence that my killer would ever be brought to justice. "

For example:

Case 1. The Mughayer Siblings

The I.D.F. investigation: About 11.30am last Tuesday, within moments of each other, Asma al-Mughair, 16, and her brother Ahmed, 13, died on the roof of their home in the Tel Sultan district of Rafah. The Israeli Defence Force… said the next day that it had investigated the incident and concluded that the siblings were killed by "a work accident" - a euphemism for a militant's bomb that explodes while it is being assembled - or by a roadside bomb set by Palestinian militants. The I.D.F. rejected the family's claim that the two children were shot dead by an Israeli sniper. (Source)

The Reality: Dr Ahmed Abu Nkaria, who pronounced the Mughayar children dead, insists on proving the manner of their killing. He pulls Asma's body from the mortuary's refrigeration unit and fumbles through the teenager's hair to reveal the hole where the bullet entered above one ear and ripped a much larger wound as it emerged above the other …Her 13-year-old brother's corpse is a short drive away in the cold-storage room of an Israeli-owned flower-growing company. Dr Nkaria rolls the child over to show a tiny round hole in his forehead, just above his fringe. There is a much larger hole at the back of the head where the bullet came out. Neither Asma nor Ahmed show signs of any other injuries, particularly of the kind that might be expected from a blast, such as shrapnel spread across the body, burns, or mutilation. (Source)

by Noel Sat Jun 10, 2006 17:27

The IDF inquiries are all lies?

What about the Jenin \\\'massacre\\\'?
What about Muhammed al-Dura murdered by Palestinian terrorists?
What about the walking corpse?
What about the football playing kids?

Even this latest beach explosion smells of a Pallywood production.

by Ali H. Sat Jun 10, 2006 18:37

In light of the pattern of inadequate investigations or lack of investigations into unlawful killings by the Israeli army of hundreds of Palestinians, including hundreds of children, in the past three and a half years, Amnesty International urges the Israeli authorities to ensure that a thorough, independent and impartial investigation is promptly carried out by judicial authorities; that the scope, methods and findings of the investigation be made public; and that those responsible for these killings are brought to justice.

-- Amnesty International, "Killing of children must be investigated"; 25 May 2004

The military has quietly dropped an investigation into the killing by an Israeli sniper of a brother and sister, both teenagers, in Rafah in May. The army falsely claimed that the pair were killed by a Palestinian bomb and only began the investigation after journalists found the bodies of the children and reported that both had a single shot to the head.

-- Chris McGreal, A schoolgirl riddled with bullets. And no one is to blame; The Guardian, 21 Oct 2004

by Irishman Sun Jun 11, 2006 17:05

Are you trying to say that the Israeli army were justified in their latest killing of 7 civillians in Gaza?? It seems that no matter what, they are above the quartet of International law according to who else, but themselves. Olmert says he'll investigate this- oh yeah! Like this inquiry's scope is really going to be broadened....

Murder is murder committed in cold blood.

by Ali H. Mon Jun 12, 2006 09:26

Friends, last week while I was at Al Awda Hospital, I visited the health emergency crew, who were targeted while evacuating the dead bodies of resistance fighters after a battle between the Israeli army and the resistance movement. One of the injured was Dia Halaby, age 27, one of the hospital’s health emergency team. Ten civilians were injured, as well as a local radio news reporter.

The ambulance was heavily damaged, though it was clear that it was a rescue team. I tried to write, to report what I have heard from Dia and others. I couldn’t write, I felt that attacking health emergency teams was one of the normal practices of the Israeli army. But now I am wondering, is it our destiny as people living under occupation to deal with abnormal practices as if they were settled normal facts?

I feel that no place in Gaza is safe.

by You Know Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:40

Had you people use less Ambulances as a device for moving explosives, weapon and terrorists. Had you not sent girls who were treated in hospitals in Israel to blow themselves in these hospitals, things might be a little different.
(see under: Wafaa Samir Ibrahim Bass).

Do YOU complain about abnormalities?

by Fedayeen Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:50

Maybe after reading the link below, some of the pro-Israeli contributors might at least consider the human consequences for ordinary innocent people of the Israeli Army's actions. Fair enough you have strong opinions about the conflict and you support Israel, but is that so unconditional that you can't even condemn such a heinous act as this? I support the right of Palestinians to fight for a state as fully independent as Israel, in Gaza/West Bank/East Jerusalem, I support their right to engage in military resistance against the occupation, but I do not support attacks on civilians by anyone, period. I oppose all attacks on civilians, whether it be artillery barrages aimed at Gaza, quassem rockets fired at Sderot, suicide bombings in Israel, shooting of kids in Palestine etc.etc.

http://www.imemc.org/content/view/19247/1/

by Noel Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:59

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=114957265605...wFull

Wait for the memorial postage stamps to be issued.

by Ali H. Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:51

Eyewitness: Gaza beach shelling

Gaza journalist Sami Yousef was at the beach in the north of the territory on Friday, when a series of artillery shells hit the sands, killing seven people and injuring dozens.

He recalled the day for the BBC News website.

" We heard some loud explosions. "

"As soon as we heard this we ran towards the area where the shells landed."

"I was one of the first people to arrive at the scene. "

"It was a terrible scene, with blood everywhere."

"We could see a gunship in middle of sea, so we knew what had happened."

by Ali H. Mon Jun 12, 2006 13:47

"At long last has Israel lost all sense of common decency??

Haaretz reports the same family suffered an earlier tragedy at the hands of the IDF:

Less than two years ago, four members of the family were killed when IDF shell hit the family farm in the northern Gaza town of Beit Lahia. The military had been targeting the area in response to Palestinian mortar fire."

"Didn’t Malcolm X once say about American racism, “the chickens are coming home to roost?” Well, with this grisly news we can equally say that the fruits of a brutal Israeli policy of retaliation for Qassam rocket launches has also come home to roost. Now, not only Israeli civilians but all of Israel and Palestine will have to pay the price in blood."

"This will also be a test for Amir Peretz, Israel’s defense minister. His hometown of Sederot is one of the areas targeted in Qassam attacks. But this disaster must deeply offend his sense of justice. Will he intercede and change IDF policy regarding the rocket firings? Can he do anything at all to make this sorry situation a little less horrible? I wish I was sure the answer might be ‘yes.” But this statement from him doesn’t bode well:

“We don’t seek to fight against the Palestinian people, only against terror,” Peretz said.

After you’ve just blown seven Palestinian civilians all to hell is NOT the time you say we don’t seek to fight against the Palestinian people. That is the time you call a permanent end to the shelling of densely populated Gaza urban areas. Peretz considered doing this a month ago and backed down. I hope he’s regretting his mistake. I hope he’s tossing and turning in his bed tonight. I hope he’ll get off his ass and do something. "

by Noel Mon Jun 12, 2006 23:56

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=115003583899...wFull

How about renaming this thread Palestinian terrorists massacre civilians.
Then let the assorted knee-jerk Israel haters have their say again.
Perhaps Ali H can cook up some story about how the Jews implanted that shrapnel in the Arab child.

Another Pallywood production.

by kintama Tue Jun 13, 2006 00:50

For some reason the moderators of this site refuse to remove the deliberately offensive and racist comments made by Noel. Holocaust denial comments would rightly be removed however this nasty little bigot continually denies that Israeli state forces murder Palestinian children at will. The notion that the Jewish Post would have any credibility in trying to shift blame for the murderous assault on a Gaza beach is frankly laughable. Noel the racist asks are we to believe that the IDF deliberately target civilians including children, the answer is a resounding yes. Derek Summerfield Honorary Senior Lecturer Institute of Psychiatry Maudsley Hospital London wrote a piece in the British Medical Journal in 2004 outlining the following:-
- two thirds of Palestinian children killed by the IDF were shot with small arms fire
- half of those were shot in the head or torso in what he described as a 'snipers wound'
He asserted that this was evidence that the IDF were routinely authorised to shoot to kill children in situations of minimal or no threat. He was attacked by the usual suspects. However a group of former IDF soldiers calling themselves 'Breaking the Silence'have since testified that they were ordered to 'fire at anything that moved'.and that the desire to avenge Israeli casualties and inflict collective punishment was the driver for this policy.They stated that military commanders in Gaza in May 2004 issued orders to 'shoot anyone on a roof or a balcony ,whoever they are'and to kill as many people as possible. One former soldier stated that it was because of this policy that the Moghayyer children collecting washing on their roof were shot. Funny enough the IDF claimed at the time that the children were blown up by a roadside bomb until journalists were shown the bodies each with a single gunshot wound to the head. The former soldiers gave an insight into the mindset of the IDF after such incidents claiming that the attitude was 'so kids got killed' big deal.
Summerfield has challenged the Jewish organisations who made hostile statements about his article to apologise and for the Israeli Medical Association to end its silence on the policy of deliberate murder but with the arrogance of those permitted to disregard International law they declined to do so.
Even the racist Noel could not claim that former members of the IDF are promoting an anti Israeli agenda they are just a group of people sickened by the deliberate policy of child murder that Noel so obviously delights in.

by Geoff Tue Jun 13, 2006 04:22

...I think a British , Channel 4, can't be sure, did a feature on Gaza.

It was about how the Israelis 'police' ,for want of a better word, Gaza, after the pullout, namely in relation to rocket attacks.

Now, I generally am a Palestinian supporter, and in the past,have been driven to much anger by the one they call Noel, who has deliberatly stonewalled and guffawed at any legitimate points raised about Palestinian suffering.

However,now, in dealing with this latest tragedy, some on the Palestinian side of the argument are doing the same, that is, stonewalling.

Back to the feature. Basically, the feature showed how certain Palestinian militia have been firing Qassem rockets from areas of waste ground inside Gaza into Israel.

The feature showed how the Israelis responded, namely, by shelling those areas of scrub land.

The programme asked if this was dangerous because of the nearby proximity to residential areas. Generally, though, Israeli shelling was accurate and did hit into the areas where the rockets were coming from.

Perhaps helicopters could have been used? Objectivly speaking, helicopters would only warn the militia men of their impending arrival, what with the noise they make. Shells travel faster. Besides, intermittant shelling of those same areas of scrubland were designed to keep the miltia men away from those areas.

Now those suffering the most are the local residents, who pretty much can't do anything about either the IDF or the Militia men.

Nonetheless,I think it does the Palestinian cause no favours to claim this particular shelling was deliberate. Callous, certainly, but not deliberate.

While past actions of IDF in West Bank were deliberate, and there was a massacre at Jenin, this particular incident in not on par with those aforementioned.

Of course, the likes of trolls like Noel have been laughing at legitimate causes for concern for so long, it is too easy for some people on side with Palestine to do likewise.

I feel great sadness for those who lost loved ones in this latest tragedy, but sad an event as this is, it is not a deliberate massacre this time.Simply put, the IDF wanted an end to rocket attacks and hence relied on primitive methods.

The rocket attacks themselves are aimed an Israeli civilians as opposed to military ones. Seriously, those militia are firing randomely into Israel.

Again, I'm no Zionist, and generally agree with what Ali H, for example, has to say. However, in this one case, I feel my viewpoints will be different to what has been written by my fellow Palestinian supporters in this thread so far.

This was not a case of settlers randomely attacking civilians as they didin the past, or IDF randomely bulldozing peoples homes. Simply put, the IDF were trying to stop rocket attacks using their presently limited resources.

by Ali H. Tue Jun 13, 2006 08:03

"In past public statements, the IDF has warned that it was “closing” the range between shelling target sites and civilian areas to as little as 100m. Critics of this escalation noted that shrapnel from Israeli shells can land as far away as 200m from the target. So it seemed only natural that the IDF was indeed announcing that they didn’t care if they killed innocent civilians who were in the margin or error. But now the IDF, by its own admission, sent a deadly shell 400m off course causing this disaster."

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2006/06/09/

"U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact Summary

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Grand Total $84,854,827,200"

Military expenditure 2003 = $9.11 billion

Plenty of money to police and run independent investigations if one wants to.

http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

"I saw a purple tree...! I know for those of you who have seen the glory of American or European springs won't be surprised, but it was quite an incongruous-and pleasant site to see in Gaza, which saw back-to-back, by the minute, thunderous shelling and sound-bombs all day long."

"In the meantime, the shelling continued to pound Gaza hard today. And the souks have lost their usual Thursday hubub. People feel suffocated. Someone commented to me the other day how they think 90% of Gazans have some form of depression. And if the other 10% dont', they there must be something REALLY wrong with them..."

"the shelling resumed last night full throttle following a rocket that landed in an Ashkelon sports stadium (kind of ironic, given the Israeli attack on Gaza's stadium a few weeks ago)."

"Meanwhile, Israeli shelling continues in eastern and northern Gaza. At one point, I counted 1 shell every 10 seconds. Haaretz reported that the Israeli army fired 300 shells within the past 24 hours."

"Qassif: Shelling. As in "Yamma! Qasif! Ma3lish-matkhafeesh!" (Oh mommy! Shelling! Its ok-don't be afraid!) after a night of earth-pounding shelling."

http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/

by rob Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:01

what racist comments?

by richards1052 - Tikun Olam Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:20

Noel is hot to accuse the Palestinians of orchestrating the Gaza massacre. But one must first remember a few things about the IDF investigation which contends that the army was not at fault for the incident. First, there were five shells fired & the army can account for only five (this info from Haaretz). Second, this is the IDF investigating the IDF and clearing the IDF of wrongdoing. Does anyone have a problem with this? Third, the IDF claims Hamas is at fault through its mining of the beach but what proof does it provide? None other than its own contention that it has sources of information that confirm this. Fourth, the IDF claims the metal in the shrapnel fragments from the victims does not match metal used in its artillery shelled--again, where is the proof other than a statement saying this is so?

I'm not saying the IDF isn't right. Perhaps Palestinian militants did criminally mine their own beach. But if they did it would be criminal on a scale matched only by some of the IDF's more heinous attacks on innocent Palestinian civilians.

by Noel Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:53

Richard, I am not hot to accuse the Palestinians of orchestrating the Gaza massacre.
I believe it was probably an accident caused by Palestinian terrorists, which the Palestinians then attempted to pin on the IDF for propaganda purposes.
The CNN video of the little girl on the beach is clearly a Pallywood concoction.
And knee-jerk anti-Israelis and anti-Semites rushed to judgement - just check the title of this thread.

As for the IDF investigation - following your logic, the IDF lie except when they claim responsibility.

In the end it comes down to whom one believes.
With the long and inglorious tradition of the Palestinians lying and exaggerating - Jenin, Muhammed al-Dura, the running corpse, football playing innocents and now this - it is difficult to take their word for it.

by Ali H. Tue Jun 13, 2006 14:02

The use of disinformation to protect security interests is commonplace in Israel as elsewhere, the Jean Charles de Menezes example comes to mind in this case.

No doubt the IDF fabrications will be revealed for what they are in due course in the same manner as Commissioner Bliar's were.

As for Pallywood productions, if the same racist comments were made about Israeli families in distress there would be a justifiable outcry. Of course those who lie professionally on behalf of the Israeli government are not subject to these constraints and are not even edited by the moderators of indymedia.ie, much less removed.

I suppose these Israel human rights organisations have fabricated their evidence and are motivated by anti-semitism, or are self-hating Jews etc. ... what's the excuse du jour to explain this away?

"Five Israeli human rights organizations demanded today in an urgent appeal to the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defense that they take immediate action to end the killing of Palestinian civilians in the Occupied Territories, and to eradicate the factors contributing to these killings.

The organizations (B’Tselem, ACRI, PCATI, HaMoked and PHR-Israel) state that the killing of a family at the Gaza seashore on Friday (a father, mother and five children), apparently by a shell fired by Israeli soldiers, is a terrible addition to an already horrifying statistic: according to B'Tselem data, since the onset of the second Intifada, 3,431 Palestinians in the Occupied Territories have been killed by Israeli security forces. Of those, 698 were minors under the age of 18 years. At lease 1,645 of those killed were in no way taking part in the fighting at the time they were killed (and an additional 244 people were the targets of targeted killings).

These dismal figures result directly from a series of Israeli policies, including illegal expansion of Israel's open-fire regulations, deliberate vagueness and double messages regarding the use of force, violation of the principle of proportionality and the failure to conduct independent investigations into civilian deaths."

by WhiteRabbit Tue Jun 13, 2006 20:40

Concluding his investigation, General Klifi said on Wednesday: "The chances that artillery fire hit that area at that time are nil."

but...

An expert working for the Human Rights Watch said the Palestinians' injuries were not consistent with a blast taking place beneath them - such as one caused by a mine.

"All of the evidence is pointing to a 155mm shell as having killed and injured the Palestinians here on the beach," Mark Garlasco said.

"My assessment [is] that it's likely that this was incoming artillery fire that landed on the beach and was fired by the Israelis from the north of Gaza."

by Arthur Kennedy Tue Jun 13, 2006 22:51

It's not the first time that Palestinians have murdered their own to garner sympathy.
At any rate, war sucks. People die. Both sides get to shoot.

There is a simple equation. Stop firing katyushas at Israel, Israel will stop firing missles into gaza.
Perhaps Israel should play by "Hama Rules" and fahgetaboutit. (google Hama Rules for an explanation)

by WhiteRabbit Tue Jun 13, 2006 22:55

Israelis blame Hamas for beach deaths

An Israeli military investigation has blamed the killing of seven members of a Palestinian family on a Gaza beach, including five children, on a land mine planted by Hamas, not shelling by the army.

But Palestinian leaders described the army's conclusions as a cover-up and a former Pentagon analyst, sent by a US human rights group to investigate the deaths, said the military has ignored evidence that leaves little doubt the family was killed by a stray Israeli shell that Israel admits is unaccounted for.

by Arthur Guiness Tue Jun 13, 2006 23:14

"There is a simple equation. Stop firing katyushas at Israel, Israel will stop firing missles into gaza."

There's a much simpler equation - stop occupying and oppressing the Palestinian people, and they will have no reason to use force against Israel.

by Arthur Kennedy Tue Jun 13, 2006 23:18

"An Israeli military investigation has blamed the killing of seven members of a Palestinian family on a Gaza beach,"

One thing is certain. You will never see an investigation by Palestinians into the massacre of Israeli civilians, they're too busy handing out candy and dancing in the streets.

by Arthur Kennedy Tue Jun 13, 2006 23:21

"There's a much simpler equation - stop occupying and oppressing the Palestinian people,"

Psst...Israel doesn't occupy the Gaza. It's been almost a year now, and the rockets still rain down on Israel from Gaza.
Maybe the alestinians didn't get the memo, or is it just that old habits die hard?

by Arthur Guiness Tue Jun 13, 2006 23:31

Psst ... Gaza is a giant prison camp cut off from the rest of the world by the Israeli army. The people who live there have no freedom, and 6,000 shells have been fired into the Strip by the IDF since the withdrawal. Israeli continues to occupy the rest of the occupied territories (the whole of the West Bank) so resistance to the colonial occupation is bound to continue.

Or perhaps you can explain to the Palestinians that their experience of occupation and oppression is just an optical illusion?

by Arthur Kennedy Tue Jun 13, 2006 23:35

"Psst ... Gaza is a giant prison camp cut off from the rest of the world by the Israeli army. "

LOL....the border between Egypt and Gaza is controlled by Palestinians and Egyptians...A fact that's always conveniently forggotten. (Ignored more likely)
It's a good thing that the general population in Gaza is too young to remember the Egyptian occupation of Gaza (1948-1967). How do you say "Brutal Military Occupation" in Arabic?

by Arthur Guiness Tue Jun 13, 2006 23:43

"It's not the first time that Palestinians have murdered their own to garner sympathy.
At any rate, war sucks. People die. Both sides get to shoot."

Of course, the fact that far more Palestinian civilians have been killed since 2000 (the ratio is about three to one) can't possibly suggest that the Israeli army is anything other than saintly and humanitarian. I suppose the Palestinians must have killed them all themselves, just to "garner sympathy". A family being blown to bits can only provoke your silly macho rhetoric about war "sucking". You sound like a six year old child.

This site attracts its fair share of racist Zionist fanatics who refuse to see the crimes committed by the IDF and pretend that the Palestinians have no reason to complain about anything. Evidently you belong in their company.

by kintama Wed Jun 14, 2006 00:12

A good week for Noel two more Palestinian children murdered by Israeli soldiers. Hisham and Shaher al -Mugrabi a two year old and a four year old, another bit of collateral damage for an army provided with the most sophisticated military hardware available by their US brothers in arms. But just to show that their genocidal intent extends to more than Palestinian toddlers they managed to slaughter an ambulance man as well.

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 14, 2006 00:15

"
Of course, the fact that far more Palestinian civilians have been killed since 2000 (the ratio is about three to one) can't possibly suggest that the Israeli army is anything other than saintly and humanitarian."

It's not a game of checkers. What it does however show is that the Israelis have shown remarkable restraint.
Jordan slaughtered more palestinians in three weeks than all of thos killed in 60 years of aggressive war against Israel. Another fact conveniently ignored.
200 was the beginning of the bloody faild intifada, which did nothing but cause death and destruction. Imagine if the palestinians had opted for peace instead of eternal war. 200 was the year of Camp David, where Barak made an initial offer of 97% of what the palestinians desired. Arafat's counter offer was murder and mayhem, he knew that if he caused peace to happen, he'd be murdered by his cohorts.

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 14, 2006 00:19

"But just to show that their genocidal intent "

LOL!! "palestine" is the only place in the world where the population increases geometrically in the face of genocide.

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 14, 2006 00:32

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/200....html

My mistake, the population growth rate in Gaza is the highest in the world, not second highest.

by kintama Wed Jun 14, 2006 01:02

Ah well thats alright then they can well afford to lose two toddlers. Humanity Israeli style.

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 14, 2006 01:08

"Ah well thats alright then they can well afford to lose two toddlers. Humanity Israeli style."

Oh please, it's a war.
How do you feel when a bomb goes off on a school bus, or restaurant? Rightious indignation?

If you see a suicide bomber enter your local coffee shop, will you run up to him (or her) and say "I'm with ya pal, Viva Palestine"? (better do it before you hear "Allahu Akbar")

In a war both sides get to shoot. The best option is peace, where no one is shooting, and no one is killed.

by kintama Wed Jun 14, 2006 01:45

Yes absolutely right holocausts happen so everyone should just get over it. Like to continue making offensive comments about deliberate murder of innocents but in the absence any moderator intervention I shall exercise some self censorship and take my leave of this thread.

by Ali H. Wed Jun 14, 2006 07:44

"We gave two talks-one at a local church in Groton, another at the Islamic Center of New London (which was covered by the Local paper, the New London Day, here)...one minor error-the person Fida saw shot dead in front of her, and whom she carried, was actually a ten-year-old child (and, I'm sure, the IOF blamed it on "pollywood").

Barring a few technical setbacks, they were both well-attended, and by a diverse audience at that.

The first talk was also “monitored” by a representative of the Anti-Defamation League, who was furiously scribbling notes during our talk and was quick to give the usual Zionist harangue in the Question and Answer Period in an attempt to silence and obfuscate (“what they failed to mention was that the reason Karni was closed was because of homicide bombings. You have a terrorist government that wants to destroy Israel. Blah blah blah blah blah.”)."

And the Zionists using this forum talk about whataboutery ... talk about the kettle .......

by Ali H. Wed Jun 14, 2006 07:50

"The events of this past weekend should not come as a surprise
to anyone: The deterioration has been going on for weeks,
and the question that should be asked is not what Israel
is doing to counter the Qassams, but what it is not doing.
An army that fires missiles at busy streets and tank
shells at a beach cannot claim there was no intent to harm
innocent civilians." -Gideon Levy

by Time Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:49

It is time for the Irish government to re-look at the EU boycott of Palestine.

http://dailyireland.televisual.co.uk/home.tvt?_ticket=Q...opp=1

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 14, 2006 16:01

"(and, I'm sure, the IOF blamed it on "pollywood")."

This will help you discern which is a Pallywood Production, and which is not:
http://www.seconddraft.org/movies.php

(you can view Pallywood Productions regularly on CNN International and Al Jezeera)

by Ali H. Wed Jun 14, 2006 16:20

"He who is wise should never engage the weak for any length of time. He who, whether through his fault or that of others, is already involved in such a situation should consider ways to end it as fast as possible."

Martin Van Crefeld, Israeli Military Historian

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 14, 2006 16:29

More palestinian Hocus Pocus.

by Ali H. Wed Jun 14, 2006 18:21

Professor Richard Landes, publisher of seconddraft (www.seconddraft.org) and accompanying blog (www.theaugeanstables.com) teaches History at Boston University and is Director and co-founder of the Center for Millennial Studies.

In other words he makes his living as a professional Zionist.

At no point in his CV (below) does it state that he has any experience as a military or intelligence analyst, therfore whatever he writes in his blogs is even more worthless than any whitewashing by the IDF who at least have experts to call upon.

http://www.bu.edu/mille/people/rlpages/cvlandes.html

This sort of rubbish goes down a treat no doubt in Zionist circles and you'd have us believe this obviously biased dross rather than serious journals such as the "Independent"??

In your dreams!

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 14, 2006 18:26

EDUCATION:

* Princeton University, History: M.A. (1979); Ph.D. (1984)
* Ecole Normale Supérieure (1971-72)
* Harvard University, Social Studies, B.A. (1971)

DISSERTATION:

"The Making of a Medieval Historian: Ademar of Chabannes and Aquitaine at the Turn of the Millennium"
Princeton University, 1984; Advisor William C. Jordan
POSITIONS HELD:

* Director, Center for Millennial Studies, 1996-
* Associate Professor, History, Boston University, 1997-
* Assistant Professor, History, Boston University, 1990-97
* Coordinator, Ademari cabanensis opera omnia (Corpus christianorum, continuatio mediaeualis), 1985-
* Assistant Professor, History, University of Pittsburgh, 1986-1990
* Mellon Post-Doctoral Fellow, Columbia University, 1984-1986

GRANTS AND HONORS:

* 1997-99 Open Society Institute Individual Grant (George Soros Foundation)
* 1996 Lilly Foundation, Conference Grant
* 1995 Boston University Humanities Foundation Seminar Grant
* 1993 Boston University Humanities Foundation Seminar Grant
* 1992 Society of Fellows, Boston University
* 1990 Centre Nationale de Recherche Scientifique, Institut de Recherche de l'Histoire des Textes
* 1989 University of Pittsburgh Faculty Research Grant
* 1988-89 Olin Foundation Research Fellowship
* 1988-89 University of Pittsburgh Faculty Research Grant
* 1987 National Endowment for the Humanities Travel to Collections
* 1987 American Council of Learned Societies, International Conference Grant
* 1987 University of Pittsburgh Faculty Research Grant
* 1985-86 MacArthur Faculty Research Grant for Peace and Conflict Studies, Columbia University
* 1984-86 Mellon Postdoctoral Fellowship in the Humanities, Columbia
* 1980 European Studies Research Grant, Princeton University
* 1977-80 Princeton University Graduate Fellowship
* 1971-72 Harvard University Tower Fellowship to the Ecole Normale Supérieure

by Ali H. Wed Jun 14, 2006 18:34

if you're looking for an expert on Medieval History which has exactly zero relevance to commenting on video, military or other intelligence information which he pruports to do .... what a neck!

His buddy Pedro Zúquete can obviously draw on his extensive experience acquired since he got his PhD on right-wing politics in Europe in ..... 2005!!!!!!!!!

You're joking right?

These 2 jokers should go back to their day-jobs and leave this sort of stuff to serious journalists!

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 14, 2006 18:59

"Medieval History which has exactly zero relevance to commenting on video, military or other intelligence"

There is little difference between Midieval History and "modern" Arab history (7th century people and mindset with cellphones)

Just imagine the Mongol Hordes with vdeo cameras.

by Ali H. Wed Jun 14, 2006 19:19

in understanding even basic critical analysis let me spell it out clearly for you:

- Dr. Landes is a historian and not even a modern military historian at that which might give him some
kind of credibility

- Ergo he has no competence to make any pronouncements of landmines, 155mm artillery shells etc.

- Also his CV says nothing about being an expert in video or communications technology

If as an honest academic he at least prefaced his "analysis" with a statement to the effect that he is not an expert he might be permitted some latitude in terms of his personal opinion but he does not even have the decency to do that.

Therefore what he has to say about the Gaza beach massacre in his blog or elsewhere has absolutely zero value.

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 14, 2006 19:44

Ali--
You're working very hard to discredit an individual who points to questions regarding something that you so desparately want to believe.
Perhaps once you leave the University you can comment on world events,( provided of course that you hold a degree in World Events Commentary) but be careful not to make any statements that aren't backed up by your documented education. It will only make you look like a fool in the eyes of the truly educated. (those who hold degrees form accredited institutes of higher education relating to the topics you hold dear)

Three Cheers for Pallywood- Medieval Film Productions

by Arthur Guiness Wed Jun 14, 2006 19:46

"There is little difference between Midieval History and "modern" Arab history (7th century people and mindset with cellphones)

Just imagine the Mongol Hordes with vdeo cameras."

Well thanks for confirming it - you're both a racist and a clown, and any intelligent reader of this site can safely ignore your ravings.

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 14, 2006 20:37

"Well thanks for confirming it - you're both a racist and a clown"

During the 7th Century, Muslims were beheading Infidels and those who stood in the way of Islamic Expansionism.

Fast forward to the 21st Century-
Nowadays, Muslims are beheading Infidels and those who stand in the way of Islamic Expansionism, AND FILMING IT!

Wouldn't it be better for all if the palestinians expended as much energy and hard cash on their economy and infratstruture, instead of eternal war? Will the palestinians be better off under an Islamic (Hamasistan) government, where religious dogma rules the day, gays are murdered and women have no rights; or would they be better off under a democracy at peace with its neighbors?

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 14, 2006 22:21

Palestinian Media Moguls used file footage of an Israeli gunboat (one which does not fire the type of ordinance the palestinians claim killed the beach goers) and an ambulance sound track to add urgency to the footage of the staged "evacuation". It makes great TV for an Arab audience and points the finger at the favorite boogey man.

Watch the film for yourself, and be honest in your appraisel.

by WhiteRabbit Wed Jun 14, 2006 23:05

"Wouldn't it be better for all if the palestinians expended as much energy and hard cash on their economy and infratstruture, instead of eternal war? Will the palestinians be better off under an Islamic (Hamasistan) government, where religious dogma rules the day, gays are murdered and women have no rights; or would they be better off under a democracy at peace with its neighbors?"

Well said, it may well be 1427 BC according to the Islamic calender, but it's still 632 BC in the mindset of many Muslims.

by Mark C Thu Jun 15, 2006 00:42

An interesting quote from John Pilger's latest book published last week:

In 2002, Chris Greal, the Guardian's reporter in Jerusalem, revealed that the Israeli army had "shot or blown up" fifty children under the age of eight in Gaza alone. The Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem, had obtained an internal military report confirming that the army had a policy of covering up its crimes. 'The message that the [army's] judge advocate general's office transmits is clear,' said the organisation: 'soldiers who violate the "Open Fire Regulation", even if their breach results in death, will not be investigated and will not be prosecuted.' from 'The Last Taboo' pg. 85.

It's interesting that the only time the Israeli army have been found guilty of this type of killing was when a British activist was killed. Worthy and unworthy victims is a phrase that comes to mind.

It's also interesting that Ariel Sharon was found to be "personally responsible" (quote from the Israeli Supreme Court, if I'm not mistaken) for the Sabra and Chatila massacres.

But it's baffling that the Israeli people then elect a man like him to be there premier.

by Arthur Guiness Thu Jun 15, 2006 00:48

"During the 7th Century, Muslims were beheading Infidels and those who stood in the way of Islamic Expansionism.

Fast forward to the 21st Century-
Nowadays, Muslims are beheading Infidels and those who stand in the way of Islamic Expansionism, AND FILMING IT!"

Yes, yes, of course, this is what all Muslims do, every single one of them, they all chop people's heads off. Sure I was only walking past the mosque in Clonskeagh the other day and I saw a dozen heads rolling down the drive way.

During the eleventh century, Christians were occupying Muslim lands

Fast forward to the 21st century-

Nowadays, Christians are occupying Muslim lands AND FILMING IT!

That's about as profound as your analysis

"Wouldn't it be better for all if the palestinians expended as much energy and hard cash on their economy and infratstruture, instead of eternal war? Will the palestinians be better off under an Islamic (Hamasistan) government, where religious dogma rules the day, gays are murdered and women have no rights; or would they be better off under a democracy at peace with its neighbors?"

Of course, of course, there's nothing holding them back only themselves. Of course it's so easy to have a nice, prosperous democracy when another nation is occupying your land, building army bases and settlements every day. You just have to think hard enough and it all goes away!

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the Palestinians could learn to love their oppressors? Why can't they just kiss their boots and grovel? The problem would go away then.

Your ravings are getting to be quite entertaining at this stage, so please, continue. Clowns like you are quite useful, they expose the absurdity of the hardline Zionist case for everyone to see

by Arthur Kennedy Thu Jun 15, 2006 00:59

"During the eleventh century, Christians were occupying Muslim lands "

LOL!!!
Ask yourself:
When did Christianity evolve?
Where did this first occur?
When did Islam become a religion?
Where did this occur?
How did the Muslims get to Jerusalem, Damascus, Turkey, Greece, Italy, Morocco,Spain, Bosnia, France?
Who was there to greet them when they arrived?
What happened then?

by Arthur Kennedy Thu Jun 15, 2006 01:05

"when another nation is occupying your land, building army bases and settlements every day"

Update: Israel left Gaza a year ago.
Hamas controls Gaza and the southern border with Egypt.
What have the palestinians done during the first year of independence?
During the first day, they destroyed the hothouses that were gifted to them (by American Jews no less) along with an established market for their products and 12,000 jobs. It's been downhill ever since.

by Ali H. Thu Jun 15, 2006 09:45

Racist and other irrelevant comments as well as pointers to "amateur-hour analysis" websites do nothing to clear the IDF of blame for the murder of an innocent family picnicing on a Gaza beach. This behaviour is intended to obfuscate and/or change the subject when the whitewashers have run out of arguments.

by Arthur Kennedy Thu Jun 15, 2006 16:10

"nothing to clear the IDF of blame for the murder of an innocent family picnicing on a Gaza beach."

Yet clearly pointing to Hamas and Pallywood for complicity in this atrocity. Not the first time involuntary shahids were created for propaganda purposes by the palestinian peace movement.

by Arthur Guiness Thu Jun 15, 2006 16:50

Keep going Arthur, keep going! You're well on course for winning the prize for the most inane, irrelevant, fatuous comments ever posted on Indymedia. Please don't stop raving - everyone can see how ridiculous your position is if you keep going.

by Arthur Kennedy Thu Jun 15, 2006 18:22

"Keep going Arthur, keep going! You're well on course for winning the prize for the most inane, irrelevant, fatuous comments ever posted on Indymedia."

I understand it's difficult to address the issues while continuing to support eternal war.
If the "palestinians" (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP et al) opted for peace, there would be peace. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
Here's something to consider:
If the "palestinians" laid down their weapons today, there'd be peace tomorrow. If they Israelis laid down their weapons today, they'd all be dead tomorrow.

by Arthur Guiness Thu Jun 15, 2006 18:34

"If the "palestinians" laid down their weapons today, there'd be peace tomorrow. "

Yes, yes, Arthur, of course, of course. It's the nasty Palestinians who are causing the whole problem by resisting the occupation of their land. If only they'd accept the occupation and allow Israel to build settlements and army bases, leaving them with a few bantustans to live in. Why can't they just kiss the boot and love their oppressors? The bastards!

You're not as entertaining as you were a few posts ago though, you're boring me now. Bring back the lunacy!

by Ali H. Thu Jun 15, 2006 18:39

The IDF killed an innocent family having a picnic on Gaza beach. They first admitted responsibility as they have done in many other casesand then thought the better of it anddecided to blame the Palestinians. How convenient. How predictable.

The IDF has a documentedand lamentable record investigating itself as can be seen in the "Bart Simson Defence" :

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2005/02/the_bar....html.

A good example is the cold-blooded execution of a 13 year-old girl by a crazed IDF officer. He was brought to court alright but was paid 82k damages inspite of audio and CCTV evidence and that of his colleagues proving he was guilty. The "court" decided to believehis version .... may he rot in hell!

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Imam-al-Hamas24nov...4.htm
http://rafahpundits.com/?p=79

by Arthur Kennedy Thu Jun 15, 2006 18:47

"It's the nasty Palestinians who are causing the whole problem by resisting the occupation of their land."

The needle on your record is stuck in 2004. ISRAEL NO LONGER OCCUPIES GAZA!!
Continuing to fire kassam and katyusha missles into Israel from Gaza will only obtain one result. The Israelis will shoot back.
The most simple equation:
Stop attacking Israel, and Israel will stop attacking Gaza.
Has Egypt attacked Israel recently? Has Israel attacked Egypt?
Jordan hasn't been attacked by Israel either.

Now ask yourself:
How was Jordan created?
On what land is Jordan located?
Who rules Jordan?
Who lived in Jordan before the arrival of the Hashemites?
What "ethnic" group makes up 80% of Jordan's population?
Who OCCUPIED the "west bank" prior to 1967?
Which was the last group of people to attack Jordan?
What was the result?
Has Jordan been attacked by that group since Black September?

by Ali H. Thu Jun 15, 2006 18:53

The IDF has a documented and lamentable record investigating itself as can be seen in the "Bart Simson Defence" :

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2005/02/the_bar....html

by Arthur Kennedy Thu Jun 15, 2006 18:56

"
A good example is the cold-blooded execution of a 13 year-old girl by a crazed IDF officer. "

What was a 13 year old girl doing in a well known and wll posted security zone?
It reminds me of Jenin. A 10 year old boy was sent by his father into a shooting zone. Israeli soldiers went to get the boy out of harm's way. Dad detonated the explosives that he had packed his child with via remote control, killing 13 Israeli soldiers and his own son.
So goes this obscene war.

by Mark C Thu Jun 15, 2006 19:09

That doesn't sound too bad of an offer. Palestinians put down their sticks and stones and home-made rockets and Israel will stop attacking them with F-16s and tanks.

Two questions arise though:

1) Will the general population be allowed to leave Gaza to go to the West Bank whenever they want/need to (or, heaven forbid, to other countries)? (Or is this a right they'll have to earn?)

2) Will those Arabs/ Palestinians who have been made refugees since 1948 be allowed to return home?

by Arthur Kennedy Thu Jun 15, 2006 19:33

"
2) Will those Arabs/ Palestinians who have been made refugees since 1948 be allowed to return home?'

Here lies a basic problem:
The UNRWA has redefined what a "refugee" is for palestinians and palestinians only.
According to the UNRWA, a palestinian refugee is someone who was forced to leave their home during the 1948 war. The "refugee" however is not just the individual who left, but all of his subsequent progeny since then. Even if only one parent or grandparent had left during the war.

http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/whois.html
WHO IS A PALESTINE REFUGEE?

"Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict. UNRWA's services are available to all those living in its area of operations who meet this definition, who are registered with the Agency and who need assistance. UNRWA's definition of a refugee also covers the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948. The number of registered Palestine refugees has subsequently grown from 914,000 in 1950 to more than four million in 2002, and continues to rise due to natural population growth.

Let's assume your family left Ireland during the potato famine and headed to the USA. They were refugees, and rightly so. After 4 or five generations, are their progeny still considered to be refugees? Of course not.

What of the 1 million Jews who were forced to leave their homes in Arab lands since 1948? Are their progeny also considered to be refugees? Will they obtain the right of return as well? (of course not, the cards are stacked)

by Mark C Thu Jun 15, 2006 19:42

"What of the 1 million Jews who were forced to leave their homes in Arab lands since 1948? Are their progeny also considered to be refugees? Will they obtain the right of return as well? (of course not, the cards are stacked)"

And do two wrongs make a right?

The main reason, I believe, that Palestinians are not granted a 'right to return' is because to grant same would mean the Israelis would have to acknowledge that they made them refugees and did wrong by them in the first place, and perhaps then have to pay some sort of compensation.

by Arthur Kennedy Thu Jun 15, 2006 19:43

"1) Will the general population be allowed to leave Gaza to go to the West Bank whenever they want/need to (or, heaven forbid, to other countries)? (Or is this a right they'll have to earn?)"

Those questions will need to be addressed if the palestinians ever accept the Two State solution. Peace will bring prosperity. Eternal war stops economic growth.
The border between Gaza and Egypt is controlled by the Palestinians. What's stopping them from leaving? Why won't their Arab brothers allow them to settle in their lands? In 1991 after the first Gulf War, Kuwait ethnically cleansed the kingdom of 1/2 million palestinians. Will they be offered the right of return? What did they do to warrant expulsion?
Where is the international outcry? Where did they go once cleansed?
During the 1990s many palestinian refugees who lived in western nations returned to "palestine" to set up business.
Their businesses were subsequently destroyed, not by the Israelis, but by their palestinian brothers. And so it goes.

by Arthur Kennedy Thu Jun 15, 2006 19:54

"The main reason, I believe, that Palestinians are not granted a 'right to return' is because to grant same would mean the Israelis would have to acknowledge that they made them refugees and did wrong by them in the first place, and perhaps then have to pay some sort of compensation."

Two wrongs never mae a right!
What of the Jews who lived in Judea and Samaria (renamed the "west bank" during the Jordanian occupation)? They were ethnically cleansed during the 1930s and following the Trans Jordanian invasion of 1948. Jews have had a continuous presence i Judea and Samaria for thousands of years. It is now Judenrein.
Will they be offered the right of return? Are their progeny also refugees? Will they be compensated? Hard question to right the wrongs on both sides.

by Mark C Thu Jun 15, 2006 20:15

Israel today okayed the sale of 950 M-16 machine guns to Mahmound Abbas in order to undermine the elected government of Palestine.

"Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, has approved the first shipment of weapons to Mahmoud Abbas, saying this week he wanted to help the president against the Hamas government."
- http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/CB233F61-E73A-40...0.htm

by Arthur Kennedy Thu Jun 15, 2006 20:41

"Israel today okayed the sale of 950 M-16 machine guns to Mahmound Abbas in order to undermine the elected government of Palestine."

During "Oslo", the Israelis gave over a thousand weapons to the PA. Subsequently those weapons were turned on the Israelis.
Do you think Abbas plans to go to war with Hamas? Why would he do that? Isn't Hamas working towards peace?
Israel is the only nation on the planet forced to give its enemies weapons. Go figure.

by Arthur Guiness Thu Jun 15, 2006 21:41

Arthur, Arthur, Arthur! You're just boring now! You were quite entertaining now, but now your blinkered refusal to acknowledge well-established facts is just tiresomse. Boring, boring, boring. Come out with some whacky lines again, that was fun!

by Arthur Kennedy Thu Jun 15, 2006 23:30

"Come out with some whacky lines again, that was fun!"

I understand that's it's difficult to discuss events that don't fit neatly into the party line.
The original article speaks of the slaughter of civilians on a beach in Gaza. How could that have happened?
Woudl Israel intentionally fire at a family having a picnic, when there are much better targets which would yield greater carnage?
Would the palestinians themselves set landmines ?

http://www.icbl.org/lm/country/palestine/
Use

In recent years, armed Palestinian groups have used improvised explosive devices (IEDs) and, allegedly, landmines. Some groups are believed to have access to both antipersonnel and antivehicle mines, and have reportedly used the high explosives from mines to make other kinds of explosive devices.[3 ] In this reporting period, since May 2004, Landmine Monitor has received few reports of use of antipersonnel mines by Palestinian groups, and no reports of use by Israeli forces in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).[4 ] In December 2004, according to a media report, Hamas said it had planted landmines and roadside bombs in an area east of Gaza City.[5 ] Another media report in January 2005 said that Israeli troops uncovered two landmines near Rafah, in the Gaza Strip.[6]

The Mine Ban Treaty prohibits not only antipersonnel mines, but also explosive booby-traps and other improvised explosive devices that are victim-activated. Media and others are not always clear whether the devices used are victim-activated or command-detonated and often use terms interchangeably, citing the use of bombs, landmines, booby-traps and improvised explosive devices in the OPT without making any distinctions.

Landmine/UXO Casualties

In 2004, at least 26 new mine/UXO casualties were recorded by DCI/PS, including two people killed and 24 injured; all were children. Activities at the time of the incidents include playing, grazing animals, helping their families in agricultural work, or collecting (scrap) metal.[42 ] Casualties include a girl killed and her brother injured when a mine exploded in the Al-Maghazi refugee camp in the central Gaza Strip on 5 June.[43 ] On 6 June, another boy was injured in a mine incident.[44 ] In 2003, 23 mine/UXO casualties (three people killed and 20 injured) were recorded.[45]

On 5 August 2004, one Palestinian was killed, and four other Palestinians and Moroccans were injured, while illegally crossing a minefield on the Greek-Turkish border.[46]

Casualties continued to be recorded in 2005 with DCI/PS reporting four people killed and 16 injured to August; all were civilians and 18 were children.[47 ] Seven casualties were recorded in the Gaza Strip; five were in Bethlehem governorate, two in Jericho, two in Jenin, two in Ramallah, one in Nablus and one in Hebron governorate.[48 ] In one incident in March in the southern border town of Rafah, four children were seriously injured when UXO exploded in a confined residential area.[49 ]

The total number of mine/UXO casualties in the OPT is not known. According to DCI/PS, more than 2,500 people were killed or injured by mines and UXO between 1967 and 1998. Between May 2000 and the end of 2003, Landmine Monitor reported at least 111 mine/UXO casualties (28 people killed and 83 injured), including at least 62 children.[50 ] UNICEF reports 26 children killed and 120 injured by UXO between September 2000 and the end of May 2005.[51 ]

by Ali H. Fri Jun 16, 2006 08:22

The answer is yes.

hey already opened fire on peaceful protesters in Rafah killing 10 of them 2 years ago and got away with it, so why not kill a family if it serves the Zionist cause.

http://fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=1263

The objective of course would be to ensure the situation stays polarised and to increase pressure on Hamas.

This removes the need to talk to anybody and allows Israel to proceed unimpeded with its unilaternal annexation of the West Bank.

by Arthur Kennedy Fri Jun 16, 2006 16:50

"
The objective of course would be to ensure the situation stays polarised and to increase pressure on Hamas."

Yes, I finally see your point Ali.
Hamas wants peace with israel and the israelis keep making peace impossible.
The Israels put civilians inside restaurants, discoteques, school buses, hotels and airplanes with the express desire to be accidentally blown up by a suicide peace activist.

Hamas has been calling for a two state solution with two democracies living side by side in peace and prosperity. Meanwhile the israelis keep throwing up roadblocks to peace. Slaughtering whole families on the beach while they are enjoying a picnic, complete witl houmous, felafel, baba etc.
The israelis frequently target peaceful family outings, like when the palestinians take their kids to throw rocks. They even have the nerve to stop palestinian parents from sending the kids out to play with explosives! What do they think. that the palestinains would purposely blow up a restaurant, or school bus or something?
Once the Israelis realize that peace is the ONLY option, then and only then will there be peace. Thank you Ali, I see the light. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, Fatah, tanzim, Al Aksa et el are all peace organizations, which need our support to purchase more wepons of peace.

by Arthur Guiness Fri Jun 16, 2006 17:19

"I understand that's it's difficult to discuss events that don't fit neatly into the party line."

That's better Arthur! Now you're satirising yourself! I can only assume this is what you're saying, as the irony of someone who pretends to believe that the Palestinians killed their own children to make the IDF look bad telling us that "it's difficult to discuss events that don't fit neatly into the party line" is surely too great to miss.

Keep 'em coming Arthur! You're on a roll!

by Arthur Kennedy Fri Jun 16, 2006 17:47

"he Palestinians killed their own children to make the IDF look bad"

When Saddam was in power, palestinian parents were paid $25000 US per baby boomer.
Prior to Saddam's generous gifting, palestinian parenets were paid only $3000 US for a kid who blew himself up, and a paultry $300 if the little shahid was unsuccessful and only managed to would himself. It was always in the best interest of the palestinian parents that their children would die. A win/win situation. Mom and Dad get some cash, the little shahid goes to paradise...who could ask for more?

You remember Mohamed al Dura, murdered by palestinians during the beginning of the bloody intifada to garner sympathy. that Pallywood scam was exposed long ago. It's a great film if you have the chance to see it. The best part is when Dad turns to the cameraman puts his hands up and implores the fellow standing next to the camerman NOT TO SHOOT. Both father and son then slump. Subsequently, we are told, Dad is proud of his dead son.

by Geoff Fri Jun 16, 2006 20:04

Thanks Ali H for the facts and figures.

It is my opinion that, again, ordinary Palestinian civilians are the biggest losers in this war. The militants fire Qassem rockets ibnto Israel, but the Israelis decide collective punishment is the answer. For a minute I thought the Israelis might have been genuinly careless this time but their calloisness knows no bounds. Israeli historian Avi Shlaim argues, in his book, The Iron Wall, that such tactics are part and parcel of Israeli policy. Basically, hammer the native Arab population to submission.This idea he traces back to Vladimir Jabotinsky, one of Zionisms early ideaologous who harboured an admiration for Mussolini and early Fascism.(Remember, there were Jewish members in the Italian Fsscist movements, well before Anti-Semitic policies were brought in in 1938. Mussolini even had a wealthy Jewish Viennese mistress by the name of Scarfetti in the 1920s)

Certain Palestinian militants have their own Iron Wall policy, but this is hardly surprising when the land generations of their family lived on is usurped by people they regrad as foreigners aided by the west. This is how they feel, regardless of any arguments or validity about the Jewish right of return.

Noel, of course, does the Israeli side no favours by deriding the death of an innocent family on a beach as "an obvious Pallywood drama."

Noel, if you are really a supporter of Israel, you'd want to shut up, unless it's goreophiles and psychopaths you want rallying to the support of the Israeli state.

Unless Noel is a double agent for Hamas? By sheer virtue of his crassness and ugliness, he is contributing to Israel losing the moral argument. Keep it up, Dude. You go.Yeah.

As Mr.T would say, "Ah pity da foo!"

by Arthur Kennedy Fri Jun 16, 2006 20:31

"Noel, of course, does the Israeli side no favours by deriding the death of an innocent family on a beach as "an obvious Pallywood drama.""

The onus is on the palestinians to stop the carnage. Israel pulled out of Gaza a year ago, the resuult? More missles fired at Israel.

Hamas is speaking out of both sides of their mouths. Calling for a cease fire (once again) and pledging to fire more katyushas. The palestinian version of a cease fire, is when only the palestinians get to shoot.

You are correct. The biggest losers in this eternal war are the "palestinians". Israel is finally taking off the gloves, and Hamas will no doubt surround themselves with even more women and children. There will be more death and destruction., more innocents killed and more handwringing by the Israeli left.

NO NATION would tolerate daily bombardment of its cities. Why should Israel?

by Arthur Kennedy Fri Jun 16, 2006 20:38

School trains suicide bombers
Mohammed draws himself as a suicide bomber
A boy draws himself with explosives tied to his body
By Jeremy Cooke in Gaza

The Islamic Jihad is running a summer school - to teach boys the benefits of becoming suicide bombers.

A new generation of children, Palestinian boys aged between 12 and 15 years old, is growing up amid conflict and violence.

Islamic Jihad member Mohammed el Hattab
Teacher Mohammed el Hattab: Suicide bombers go to the highest state in paradise
The militant group has a sworn mission to wage a holy war against Israel.

The boys are told not only that it is good to kill, but also that it is good to die.

They learn that suicide bomb attacks have proved the most deadly way to hit the Israelis.

Part of the revolution

Mohammed, a 14-year-old boy, draws himself with explosives strapped to his body, ready to blow himself to pieces if it means killing Jews.

"Yes," he says, when asked if he wants to be a suicide bomber. "I want to liberate Palestine and be part of the revolution."

Boys train at the Islamic Jihad summer camp
The boys are told that it is good to kill and good to die
The boys are shown pictures of those who have already died in the conflict with Israel.

They are taught that to give their lives is to be guaranteed a place in heaven.

And to be a suicide bomber is one of the highest forms of martyrdom.

They will be greeted in paradise by 70 virgins.

"We are teaching the children that suicide bombing is the only thing that make the Israeli people very frightened. Furthermore, we are teaching them that we have the right to do it," said Islamic Jihad member Mohammed el Hattab, one of the teachers on the programme.

"We are teaching them that after the suicide attacks, the man who makes it goes to the highest state in paradise," he said.

by Arthur Kennedy Fri Jun 16, 2006 22:56

'Israel's weapons used against Jews'

Terrorist says that rifles transferred last week by Israel to Abbas for security have been employed in shooting attacks against Israelis

Weapons transferred last week by Israel to Force 17, the presidential guard units of Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, will be utilized for attacks against Jews, a senior member of Force 17 told WorldNetDaily in an exclusive interview today.

The militant, Abu Yousuf, hinted the weapons already were used in two shooting attacks the past few days that killed one Israeli civilian and wounded another.

Weapons Transfer
Olmert: I okayed arms transfer to Abbas / Ronny Sofer
During London visit, prime minister tells British parliament ‘Israel will never agree to pull out of all territories, because 1967 borders are indefensible’; says he views problem of capital solvable: Jews pray daily facing Jerusalem, but not its Palestinian neighborhoods
Full Story
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced earlier this week he had approved a shipment of weapons and ammunition, which reportedly include over 370 assault rifles and were destined for Force 17. The shipment reportedly originated in Jordan and needed Israel's approval for transport.

Olmert said the shipment was meant to bolster security forces loyal to Abbas amid an increasingly violent power struggle between the PA chairman's Fatah party and Hamas, which won recent Palestinian parliamentary elections.

"I did this because we are running out of time and we need to help Abu Mazen," Olmert told reporters Tuesday.

The weapons reportedly were escorted by Israel to Ramallah and to the Gaza border where they were received by Force 17 members.

Weapons 'won't be used against brothers'

Abu Yousuf said the weapons will be fired at Israelis. "These weapons will not be used in an internal war but against Israelis," he said. "Force 17 is proud that we were the first to lead the Palestinian people during tough times such as resistance operations (against the Israeli army during large-scale operations in northern Samaria in 2002). We will also be the first to lead the Palestinians in the current struggle against Israeli occupation."

by Fedayeen Fri Jun 16, 2006 23:52

Im not really interested in the racist rants of the pro-Israeli fundamentalists or for that matter of any fundamentalists, including Islamic ones. All that matters as far as I can see, is that the Israeli Army, yet again, murdered Palestinian civilians, and we need to keep exposing such acts of terror, and yes, once again, I reiterate my unequivical condemnation of the killing of Israeli civilians.

For more unbiased reporting see todays Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1799558,00.html

by Bill Sat Jun 17, 2006 00:09

"For more unbiased reporting see todays Guardian:"

LOL!!! Thanks for the comic relief.
The jury is still out on the cause of the explosion that killed those on the beach....so far everything points towards Pallywood, and a Hamas landmine.
But, the good news, is that today another Islamic Jihad peace activist was sent to meet his virgins!

by Bill Sat Jun 17, 2006 00:20

Make that two palestinian peace activists...

by Ali H. Sat Jun 17, 2006 09:06

"so far everything points towards Pallywood, and a Hamas landmine"

So called Pallywood videos are the work of unqualified Zionist amateurs.

I dont see the Israeli government or IDF backing the Pallywood producers or the loony fringe of Zionism in general.

Even the IDF have admitted that the family was killed by an artillery shell and the Palestinians obviously do not have artillery.

All that you have proven so far is that you are incapable of stringing together a logical argument and have to resort to distraction and insult rather than use facts and unbiased sources to prove your point.

by Noel Sat Jun 17, 2006 13:09

\\\'So called Pallywood videos are the work of unqualified Zionist amateurs.\\\'
So it is the Jews again, eh Ali?

\\\'Even the IDF have admitted that the family was killed by an artillery shell and the Palestinians obviously do not have artillery.\\\'

Got a link?

Now ask yourself why would the peace seeking Palestinians fire rockets at Israeli civilian targets from Gaza.
Is it to achieve an end to the non-existant Israeli occupation of Gaza or is it to kill Jews?
And why fire these rockets at innocent civilians from amongst innocent civilians?
The sad and sorry truth is that the Palestinian terrorists care as little for their own as they do for Jews.

by Ali H. Sat Jun 17, 2006 14:39

Pallywood is a term coined by Dr. Richard Landes a third-rate US academic in Millenium studies.

His list of papers includes papers on the millenium bug etc. He and his "team" have zero background and zero credibility in terms of commenting on military matters, ballistics, forensics or digital media.

He has obviously cooked up a new area of "research" as a way of continuing to fund his research group and has found willing financial backers to pay him to promulgate a certain world view.

However this does not bestow per se any particular value on his interpretation of world events.

by Ali H. Sat Jun 17, 2006 15:02

"Children throwing stones are not lawful targets for lethal attack by the IDF. Israeli security forces are serving a law enforcement -- not combat -- function and their own rules of engagement acknowledge this. Soldiers are obligated only to use necessary force that is proportionate to the threat. In other words, Palestinian children are dying because Israeli security forces are shooting them -- in a pattern which is in contravention of international standards and the Israeli army's own regulations -- not because they are child combatants in an armed conflict (and therefore legitimate targets of Israeli fire)."

-- Amnesty International Secretariat, Israel's Responsibility for Killing Children; 15 Dec 2000.

"We saw the devaluing of Palestinian life in the open-fire rules established by the IDF at the beginning of this intifada...

Sniper: “They forbid us to shoot at children”.
Journalist: “How do they say this?”
Sniper: “You don’t shoot a child who is 12 or younger”.
Journalist: “That is, a child of 12 or older is allowed?”
Sniper: “Twelve and up is allowed. He’s not a child anymore, he’s already after his bar mitzvah. Something like that”.
Journalist: “Thirteen is bar mitzvah age”.
Sniper: “Twelve and up, you’re allowed to shoot. That’s what they tell us”.
Journalist: “Under international law, a child is defined as someone up to the age of 18.”
Sniper: “Up until 18 is a child?”
Journalist: “So, according to the IDF, it is 12?”
Sniper: “According to what the IDF says to its soldiers. I don’t know if this is what the IDF says to the media.”

-- Don’t shoot till you can see they’re over the age of 12; Ha'aretz, 20 November 2000."

"The I.D.F. effectively grants immunity to soldiers who open fire illegally. Since the beginning of the intifada, the I.D.F. has ceased to automatically open an investigation into every case in which a Palestinian is killed by I.D.F. fire… [T]he investigations that are opened are generally protracted and based primarily on soldiers' testimonies, while completely ignoring the Palestinian eyewitnesses. This policy has unavoidably resulted in a situation in which shooting at innocent Palestinians has practically become a routine.

-- Trigger Happy - Unjustified Gunfire and the I.D.F.'s Open-Fire Regulations…; B'Tselem."

"The Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, initially apologised for the [Gaza Beach] killings but the military swiftly realised it was confronting another PR disaster to rival that of the killing of Mohammed al-Dura, the 12-year-old boy who died in his father's arms amid a barrage of gunfire six years ago and became the first iconic victim of the intifada."

"Mr Garlasco also produced shrapnel from the site apparently marked as a 155mm shell used by the army that day."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1799835,00....html

by Noel Sat Jun 17, 2006 15:04

The origins of the term Pallywood is irrelevant.
However, the fact that Palestinians stage fake scenes is relevant to this thread.

The deliberate murder of Muhammed al-Dura by Palestinians was a Pallywood production.
As was the funeral procession which tripped and sent the corpse running.
As was the video of the little girl on the beach following the Palestinian explosion.

The Palestinians stage fake scenes to garner support from dupes in the West.
And no amount of It is the Jews wot dunnit from Ali H can hide that basic fact.

by Ali H. Sat Jun 17, 2006 15:15

http://www.bubbleshare.com/album/38802/1031294

"Dr." Richard Landes is the ONLY person making a living out of CLAIMING that Mohammed Al-Dura and others were not killed by the IDF.

Not even the Israeli government or IDF who would have a lot to gain by endorsing his "work" have done so.

As previously stated he is a 3rd rate US-based academic whore for hire relying on 2nd or 3rd hand "evidence" with qualifications in an unrelated field so his opinion is worth as much as Noels ....

by Arthur Kennedy Sat Jun 17, 2006 16:33

"So called Pallywood videos are the work of unqualified Zionist amateurs."

LOL!!!! At least give the palis credit for something. According to the "I Love Palestine" crowd, palestinians are like children. They are incapabale of making their own propaganda (they have to rely on zionists) and they can't even blow up a bunch of kids on a school bus (without the help of the "mossad), let alone massacre a family on the beach for their movie.
I suppose that's what happens to people when they become welfare queens for three generations.

by Ali H. Sat Jun 17, 2006 16:53

to serious news reports aired on international TV when I use the phrase Pallywood but rather the amateur hour analysis videos you pointed to previously from the medieval historian Dr. Richard Landes.

As previously stated these videos are produced by the unqualified Dr. Richard Landes when it comes to anything but medieval history.

by Noel Sat Jun 17, 2006 17:25

\\\'when I use the phrase Pallywood but rather the amateur hour analysis videos you pointed to\\\'

Pallywood is not the analysis videos.
Pallywood is the deliberate faking of scenes and manipulation of the media.
Zionists do not do Pallywood. Palestinians do Pallywood.

btw Ali, intersting collection of photos in your previous link.
Especially the library photo of an Israeli gunboat.
Or perhaps we are to believe the photo was taken at the moment the boat let fly the deadly missiles.
According to the copy - witnesses saw an Israeli gunboat shoot the missiles at the beach.
That is worth repeating. Witnesses saw an Israeli gunboat shoot the missiles at the beach.

Tell me Ali, do you believe these witnesses?

by Arthur Kennedy Sat Jun 17, 2006 21:50

Old habits die hard. Even though they control the border with Egypt, palestinians are compelled to smuggle through their tunnels. Lots of guns and explosives for the peace movement. Clearly the fault of the Isra-ay-lees.

"Security sources: Weapons smuggling from Egypt into Gaza has ballooned
By Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondent

Shin Bet chief Yuval Diskin told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee 10 days ago that weapons smuggling from Egypt into the Gaza Strip has increased greatly since the Israel Defense Forces withdrew on September 12, 2005.

Diskin did not explain that most of the weapons are smuggled into Gaza through the tunnels at Rafah, just like before the IDF pullout. Palestinian security sources say smuggling has reached an unprecedented scope because there is no preventive activity on the Palestinian side.

Contraband materiel has included 11 tons of TNT, 3 million rifle bullets, some 10,000 rifles, 1,600 guns, 65 rocket propelled grenade launchers, 430 RPG shells and shoulder-launched missiles.

Advertisement

No Egyptian, Palestinian or Israeli official is currently willing to estimate the number of tunnels operating in the Rafah region, but the Egyptians report to Israel and the Palestinian Authority on tunnels exposed nearly every week. Many other tunnels are thought to be operating.

The tunnels do not belong to a particular organization, but rather to Rafah's major clans, which rent them out to the highest bidder. Young boys for the most part are employed at very low wages to dig the tunnels. A month ago a tunnel collapsed, trapping three diggers and killing one of them.

Besides weapons, the tunnels are used to smuggle electrical appliances, drugs and cigarettes, as well as terrorists wanted in Egypt.

by martin Sun Jun 18, 2006 03:30

Sorry to dissapoint you all but the israeli army does not kill civilians deliberately unlike there palistinian counterparts and from what i heard it looks like a mine exploded on that beach not a artillary shell.

by geoff Sun Jun 18, 2006 04:31

Individual Palestinians blow up innocents on buses.
Individual Palestinian militias fire Qassem rockets into Israel.

The Israeli State has confiscated Palestinian land over the last forty years, has used F14 planes on Palestinisan civilians, at one stage blowing up an apartment block because one Hamas member was inside, allowed settlers to go on armed rampages through Palestinian towns, destroyed Palestinian livelyhoods by chopping down olive farms, and (as aforemwntioned, confiscating land, doing same again to build this security fence, which, incidentally, lies well behind the former green line.

I'm sorry, but these days, Israel looks like the bigger bully. It has the nuke, a lot of US tax dollars, and a strong army to boot.

Not everyone who supports Palestinian human rights is a stereotypical Red. FF TDs went and wrote a daming report some time back about the brutal methods Israel uses in it's occupation.

Shout 'Pallywood' all you like. Most of the pain being inflicted on the Palestinian populace we see on a daily basis is fed to us by Rupert Murdoch's Sky News. Thats hardly a media organ for North Korea, now is it?

Israel itself is quite a progressive country with rights for women, gays, parliamentary elections, and a moderate free market. This I like. Human rights abuses as outlined above I don't like, and a number of Israelis would agree with me. Indeed, most ordinary decent people would agree with me.

And no we don't like suicide bombing. However, the Israeli state is doing no favours for itself or the long term future of the Middle East by it's Iron Wall policy.

by They don't get any smarter Sun Jun 18, 2006 05:00

"Individual Palestinians blow up innocents on buses.
Individual Palestinian militias fire Qassem rockets into Israel."

LOL!! It's just a few individuals murdering individual (in groups) Israeli citizens. The big bad israelis should understand and open their borders to the peaceful palestinians, they sure look like bullies when they defend their citizens.
Poor misunderstood individual palestinians. Maybe some counseling would do? Perhaps we could mix some prozac with their explosives.
Why are the israelis being so mean? So what if their cities are bombarded by missiles daily. They're just individual missles.

Don't the israelis understand that a suicide bomber is just an individual? Why don't they try to speak with him (or her) before the explosion? Maybe a cup of tea and a muffin.
Surely, the Israelis should just send their children to Paliland for fun and vacations, and if one or two or three or four or five or six....individuals decide to murder them, well...ya know, the israelis don't want to look like bullies now do they? They're just idividual children being killed by individual palestinians and stuff like that.

by Noel Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:26

\\\'Shout \\\'Pallywood\\\' all you like. Most of the pain being inflicted on the Palestinian populace we see on a daily basis is fed to us by Rupert Murdoch\\\'s Sky News. Thats hardly a media organ for North Korea, now is it?\\\'

Geoff, far be it for me to teach you anything about the conflict, however, you need to research Pallywood before making naive statements like that.
The cameramen who shoot the conflict - be it for France2 or Sky News - they are Palestinians.
They are the creators of Pallywood.

Google Pallywood and view the videos. I assure you it will be an eye-opener.
Be evenhanded in your analysis then come back on here and tell me, as Ali H has, if Pallywood is the work of Zionists.

by Noel Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:28

\\\'Shout \\\'Pallywood\\\' all you like. Most of the pain being inflicted on the Palestinian populace we see on a daily basis is fed to us by Rupert Murdoch\\\'s Sky News. Thats hardly a media organ for North Korea, now is it?\\\'

Geoff, far be it for me to teach you anything about the conflict, however, you need to research Pallywood before making naive statements like that.
The cameramen who shoot the conflict - be it for France2 or Sky News - they are Palestinians.
They are the creators of Pallywood.

Google Pallywood and view the videos. I assure you it will be an eye-opener.
Be evenhanded in your analysis then come back on here and tell me, as Ali H has, if Pallywood is the work of Zionists.

by conspiracy theorist Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:12

All this conspiracy theory hogwash about Zionist control of the world media is on the wrong track. On the basis of Noel's submissions it now becomes evident that in fact the world media is secretly controlled by: THE PALESTINIANS .
And all the while I had been blithely dismissing them as a bunch of impoverished, politically insignificant towel-heads.Just shows how WRONG you can be.

Thank you Noel for alerting us to the true state of affairs.

by Geoff Sun Jun 18, 2006 17:19

Please,

This discussion can get quite heated.

In response to one poster;

"LOL!! It's just a few individuals murdering individual (in groups) Israeli citizens. The big bad israelis should understand and open their borders to the peaceful palestinians, they sure look like bullies when they defend their citizens"

You, sir, have neglected to respond to my few points raised, again, namely

1)The Israeli State has confiscated Palestinian land over the last forty years,

2)has used F14 planes on Palestinisan civilians, at one stage blowing up an apartment block because one Hamas member was inside,
3)allowed settlers to go on armed rampages through Palestinian towns, destroyed Palestinian livelyhoods by chopping down olive farms,

4)and (as aforementioned) confiscating land, doing same again to build this security fence, which, incidentally, lies well behind the former green line.

Now, please, drop the dripping sarcasm, etc. Lets pretend you are rational individuals, which most of you probably are in your daikly lives. Please convince me as to the legitimacy of Israeli actions and policies.

I feel it will be hard to do so, simply for the points I raised above.

Again, to repewat, I also condemn suicdie bombers, qassem rockets, and other such atrocities. I am not a supporter of terrorism.

Please, do not level such charges against me. Simply answer my points raised, and tell me how you, if you were a Palestinian, react to such measures.

by Geoff Sun Jun 18, 2006 17:23

Can you prove to me that all camera men working for Sky News are Palestinian? Most of the reporters I see with those camertamen are white and English, and, no, their reports are not voiced over, they have beeen there in the field.

Again, this should not be a battle of wits. Pretend, please, I have never heard of Palestine. Please convince me that ANY reports of human rights abuses perpetrated by Israel are bogus, etc.

All the best
Geoff

by benny morris Sun Jun 18, 2006 19:20

I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that Ben-Gurion erred in expelling too few Arabs?

If he was already engaged in expulsion, maybe he should have done a
complete job. I know that this stuns the Arabs and the liberals and the
politically correct types. But my feeling is that this place would be quieter and know less suffering if the matter had been resolved once and for all. If Ben-Gurion had carried out a large expulsion and cleansed the whole country - the whole Land of Israel, as far as the Jordan River. It may yet turn out that this was his fatal mistake. If he had carried out a full expulsion - rather than a partial one - he would have stabilized the State of Israel for generations.

I find it hard to believe what I am hearing.

If the end of the story turns out to be a gloomy one for the Jews, it will be
because Ben-Gurion did not complete the transfer in 1948. Because he left a large and volatile demographic reserve in the West Bank and Gaza and within Israel itself.

In his place, would you have expelled them all? All the Arabs in the country?

But I am not a statesman. I do not put myself in his place. But as an
historian, I assert that a mistake was made here. Yes. The non-completion of the transfer was a mistake.

And today? Do you advocate a transfer today?

If you are asking me whether I support the transfer and expulsion of the
Arabs from the West Bank, Gaza and perhaps even from Galilee and the
Triangle, I say not at this moment. I am not willing to be a partner to that
act. In the present circumstances it is neither moral nor realistic. The world would not allow it, the Arab world would not allow it, it would destroy the Jewish society from within. But I am ready to tell you that in other circumstances, apocalyptic ones, which are liable to be realized in five or ten years, I can see expulsions. If we find ourselves with atomic weapons around us, or if there is a general Arab attack on us and a situation of warfare on the front with Arabs in the rear shooting at convoys on their way to the front, acts of expulsion will be entirely reasonable. They may even be essential.

Including the expulsion of Israeli Arabs?

The Israeli Arabs are a time bomb. Their slide into complete Palestinization has made them an emissary of the enemy that is among us. They are a potential fifth column. In both demographic and security terms they are liable to undermine the state. So that if Israel again finds itself in a situation of existential threat, as in 1948, it may be forced to act as it did then. If we are attacked by Egypt (after an Islamist revolution in Cairo) and by Syria, and chemical and biological missiles slam into our cities, and at the same time Israeli Palestinians attack us from behind, I can see an expulsion situation. It could happen. If the threat to Israel is existential, expulsion will be justified.

http://www.logosjournal.com/morris.pdf
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=5151

by Arthur Kennedy Sun Jun 18, 2006 19:55

"
2)has used F14 planes on Palestinisan civilians, at one stage blowing up an apartment block because one Hamas member was inside,"

Oh Please....
You neglect the fact that Israel, using Arab rules (Hama and Black September) could wipe out the "palestinians" in one afternoon. Yet the Israelis risk the lives of good men in order to save civilians from harm.
Arab forces have killed more palestinians (black september...20,000 murdered in under three weeks)
Meanwhile, Israel makes every attempt NOT to kill civilians, whiel the peqaceful palestinians make every attempt to slaugher as many Israeli civilians (including Arabs , Jews and others from all over the world) as possible.

Golda Mier said. "there will be peace whn the arab love their children more than they hate the Jews" (paraphrase)
Hamas can stop the madness by stopping attacks on Israel. There is no nation on the planet that would allow their citizens to be slaughtered by their next door neighbors, yet the world demands that the israelis "understand" and NOT respond to daily attacks.

Supporting the murderers of palestine is equivalent to supporting their Nazi allies (Hajj Amin al Husseini was Yasseer Arafat's Uncle and Hitler's Mufti. The war against the Jews continues and the perps are the same.

by Delilah Sun Jun 18, 2006 20:26

The first casualty of war is truth. Interesting reading on the situation in Israel /Palestine
wd be John Pilger's :Freedom Next Time.

However. Philip Roth deals very gracefully with the question from the diaspora perspective in The Counterlife.

RB Kitaj : The First Diaspora Manifesto also deals gently with the issue of identity,
Diaspora and art.

Not going into personal feelings about this war. or The Road-Map or masculinist
posturing but the voices of people from both sides of that wall are unheard
because of Interference by a country unentitled to interfere.

Kitaj: also did some very good paintings about Rosa Luxemburg and the Auschwitz
story.

Roth's opus is very impressive. In fact the art of a nation/nations indicate so much about the freedom of the human voice. funny they way they are always attacked first by
the beligerent.

by Arthur Guiness Sun Jun 18, 2006 21:53

Thanks a million for that extraordinary peformance, Arthur. You have now proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the only people capable of defending Israel uncritically are racist fanatics who deny the established facts and demand that everyone else accepts their lies and fantasies. Any rational person will have watched you and Noel rant and rave on this thread and drawn the right conclusions. As someone suggested earlier, yis might as well be working for Hamas. Brilliant work!

by Arthur Kennedy Sun Jun 18, 2006 23:10

"yis might as well be working for Hamas. Brilliant work!"

Yes, Hamas is the current palestinian peace movement in charge of their government, seeking peace and understanding between neighbors. Hamas is working towards a peaceful solution to an old problem offering it's people a truly democratic nation, a two state solution and economic cooperation in the region. Equal rights for women and freedom of religion and acceptance of gays as useful productive citizens of a prosperous state.

by Satan Sun Jun 18, 2006 23:20

HA!HA!HA!

Oh, didn't I forget to mention...

Call me Legion...

Woah!Ha!Ha!

Israel/Palestine, always one of my favorite threads.

Arabs don't want peace, Jews control the banks, and I'll think up of something to stereotype about Christians

Woah!Ha!Ha!

by Geoff Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:52

Shut up Satan

Arthur

Thank you for answering my second point. Your response, replete with dripping sarcasm of 'Of please' was

"Oh Please....
You neglect the fact that Israel, using Arab rules (Hama and Black September) could wipe out the "palestinians" in one afternoon. Yet the Israelis risk the lives of good men in order to save civilians from harm."

You are telling me the Israelis would be able to level, exterminate or expel 1.2 million Palestinians that live in the West Bank in one afternoon? It took them a week to level just Jenin, using bulldozers to levels houses, some with people still in them.Unless they nuked the place, but I don't think they want to risk having future generations of settlers give birth to children with mad max mutations.

I did not see them making much effort to protect civilians from harm. In fact, young IDF soldiers regularly shoot innocents, including journalists, as a Channel 4 documentary revelaed some time back.

And firing missiles from f16s and Apaches into civilan areas belies your statement of "the Israelis risk the lives of good men in order to save civilians from harm." Oh please indeed.

Noel has offred no proof as to the veracity of his statement re Palestinians as camera men for Sky yet, must be working for Hamas.

And you, Arthur, have not addressed my other points I raised.

Especially my important one that asks; how would you react to a brutal occupation if you were an uneployed young man whose, lets say, mother had been shot by settlers, or brother shot by an anonymous IDF sniper? These things happen with such regularity that the victims themselves are at this stage anonymous. I'm referring to Amnesty reports, as well as Human Rights watch, etc.

Again, I genuinly am interested in reading your response. This is not a battle of rethorical wits, this is about how each of us might perceive what we each seperatly regard as the truth.

All the best
Geoff

by indeed Mon Jun 19, 2006 13:09

Yes, Hamas is the current palestinian peace movement in charge of their government, seeking peace and understanding between neighbors. Hamas is working towards a peaceful solution to an old problem offering it's people a truly democratic nation, a two state solution and economic cooperation in the region. Equal rights for women and freedom of religion and acceptance of gays as useful productive citizens of a prosperous state.
LOL THATS CLASS THAT IS, TIS TRUE THAT BOTH SIDES ARE RASCIST PIGS, FACE FACTS THEY BOTH HATE EACH OTHERS GUTS AND WOULD SKIN EACH OTHER LIKE PIGS WHENEVER THEY GET THE CHANCE, BUT THE HILARIOUS THING IS --THEY NEVER EVEN CREATED THE PROBLEM

by Noel Mon Jun 19, 2006 14:23

Geoff,

I never suggested Palestinian cameramen were Hamas members, but they may be.
http://honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/...s.asp

Have you checked out Pallywood on Google yet?

by Ali H. Mon Jun 19, 2006 14:57

Dr. Richard Landes invented the Pallywood tag to bolster his flagging academic career and is probably making a very nice living out of it too thank you.

The fact that he is making a living this way does not make him correct in his analysis and his so-called analysis videos contain nothing in the way of new information rather they are a collection of original broadcast footage edited together with remnants from the cutting room floor and a biased dialogue from a male voice which may or may not be that of Dr. Landes.

He does not inverview any other INDEPENDENT experts in ballistics etc. to back up his claims, and furthermore he has no background in these areas upon which to base his conclusions.

He is in fact alone in his analysis. I wonder why?

As for the "shocking" revelation that the cameramen producing the footage for Sky and others are Palestinians, it might just have something to do with the fact that foreign cameramen and journalists have frequently been targets for the IDF.

I'm sure that just like cameramen and journalists elsewhere they are a mixed bunch but given the sort of pasting they and their employers get from Zionists I'm sure their stories are thoroughly checked before being aired.

In fact the only retractions we have seen in recent times have been from the Israelis both government abd IDF who first apologise for attacks and rapidly do an about face when they are rightfully criticised!

by Arthur Kennedy Mon Jun 19, 2006 16:45

"It took them a week to level just Jenin,"

Only because the Israelis put good men in harms way by sending them house to house in order to minimize civilian deaths. Arabs on hte other hand always try for maximimum civilian deaths. If the Israelis played by Arab rules (Hama Rules: Syria slaughtered 25000 Sunnis in the town of Hama. After firebombs from the air, Assad sent foot soldiers in to make sure that not a man woman, child or dog survived. After the carnage, the city was leveled and paved over. It's now an Arab tourist destination --quite fitting)

Jenein wasn't leveled by the way...the destruction was only about 4 square blocks, but the Arab/Nazi press would have you believe that it was the size of New York City.

by Arthur Guiness Mon Jun 19, 2006 16:45

Noel has offred no proof as to the veracity of his statement re Palestinians as camera men for Sky yet, must be working for Hamas.

"Geoff,

I never suggested Palestinian cameramen were Hamas members, but they may be."

He never said you did, as any half-way literate person can tell by reading his post:

"Noel has offred no proof as to the veracity of his statement re Palestinians as camera men for Sky yet, must be working for Hamas."

He was repeating his point that many of the cameramen who have documented Israeli brutality are white westerners. You haven't made any attempt to answer this point, because you can't.

Better luck next time!

I see Arthur Kennedy is so deranged and frothing at the mouth that there's no point even trying to engage with him. Once again, thanks for exposing yourself as a racist fanatic Arthur.

by Arthur Kennedy Mon Jun 19, 2006 17:10

"there's no point even trying to engage with him

Mister Guiness Stout is still having difficulty addressing the most recent Pallywood Production.
I hear that "The Best of the Intifada" is coming out on DVD.
It begins with Al Dura, and culminates with the "Gaza Beach Massacre" Voice over by Sheikh Yassin.

by Ali H. Mon Jun 19, 2006 19:10

This guy went house to house in Jenin alright, levelling each one in turn with his D9 bulldozer ... a real humanitarian!

"I had no mercy for anybody. I would erase anyone with the D-9."

"They were warned by loudspeaker to get out of the house before I come,

but I gave no one a chance.

I didn't wait.

I didn't give one blow, and wait for them to come out.

I would just ram the house with full power, to bring it down as fast as possible."

"Do you know how I held out for 75 hours? I drank whisky all the time."

So much for IDF ethical values and investigations this guy admitted what he did to anyone who asked!

http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/kurdi_eng.html

by Arthur Kennedy Mon Jun 19, 2006 19:36

The "Jenin Massacre", another Pallywood Production.

Here's an actual photo of the destruction in Jenin.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/FF964449-750E-4828-9...0.jpg

by Ali H. Mon Jun 19, 2006 19:54

by omission I take it that you admit that the IDF did not "put good men in harms way by sending them house to house"?

Or is Kurdi bear the leveller of Jenin a "Pallywood" fabrication too?

Very convenient how you Zionists conveniently change story each time when you're confronted with evidence to the contrary.

A bit like the IDF and Israeli government really?

by Arthur Guiness Mon Jun 19, 2006 20:03

"Mister Guiness Stout is still having difficulty addressing the most recent Pallywood Production.
I hear that "The Best of the Intifada" is coming out on DVD.
It begins with Al Dura, and culminates with the "Gaza Beach Massacre" Voice over by Sheikh Yassin."

Ah, you would like me to address your claim that the former Hamas leader is actually still alive? The IDF didn't kill him with a rocket strike, not at all, they just sent him a container of sweets and a scholarly article on the cultural affinities between the Jewish and Arab peoples.

As I said, totally deranged and frothing at the moment, completely bonkers, mad, mad, mad, deranged racist fanatic, that's our Arthur. Thanks once again for exposing yourself as a raving lunatic

by Arthur Kennedy Mon Jun 19, 2006 20:12

"
Ah, you would like me to address your claim that the former Hamas leader is actually still alive? "

LOL!!!! Sheikh Yassin is currently in Paradise, being wheeled around by a bunch of virgins and fresh young boys.
He no longer has the need to send other people's children to blow themselves up.

by Noel Mon Jun 19, 2006 20:19

Or is Kurdi bear the leveller of Jenin a \\\"Pallywood\\\" fabrication too?

The Pallywood fabrication of the Jenin Massacre is not about buildings.
The lies told by Palestinians regarding the numbers killed is the fabrication.

500 DEAD
1600 MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN MISSING

Bare faced lies.
Lies made up by Palestinians.
Lies believed by dupes.
The Jenin lie has been exposed for what it was.

Ali H, you do your cause no favours by clinging to the myth of Jenin.
Let it go - there are lots of Pallywood lies that have not been exposed yet. Stick to those.

by Paddy Tue Jun 20, 2006 01:11

Zionists or callous assholes ?
I'd say the latter. The Zionist movement did not fabricate insults against little girls who had been traumatised by mass murder just previously. They were a serious movement making serious changes.
When a family is killed outright, it is very sad but some sickos make fickle gossip and jokes.
Those people were blown to pieces whilst having a picnic, thats the begining and the end of that.
Noel and Arthur K, go to a quiet place and reflect. You are not Zionists, nor are you supporters of anybody's rights. Nobody should have to read the poison you allow to seep out, get control of it.

That poor little girl should be in all our thoughts. She could be anyone's daughter. Anyone here, but for the grace of privilege.
Show some respect.

by Arthur Kennedy Tue Jun 20, 2006 01:16

"When a family is killed outright, it is very sad but some sickos make fickle gossip and jokes.
Those people were blown to pieces whilst having a picnic, thats the begining and the end of that."

Hamas has never been above the creation of martyrs.

by Ali H. Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:34

The IDF has made martyrs of 3,135 killed Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza including 627 aged under 18, 181 killed in extrajudicial executions and 288 (including at least 29 aged under 18) killed in the course of these assassinations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3694350.stm

by Ali H. Tue Jun 20, 2006 14:47

"The quantity of official forgetfulness about Israel is simply amazing. The most recent example is the wall. Critics of the wall claimed that it was just another land grab, and were called every variation of the term ‘anti-Semite’ or even worse, by Israel apologists, who loudly claimed that it was just intended for Israeli security. Not that many months later, Israel announced that it was in fact permanently annexing the enclosed lands, and everybody seemed to forget the entire course of the earlier debate, including all the name-calling against people who were simply trying to point out the truth about a major injustice. That’s why you have to ignore the name-calling: it is the main weapon of those trying to impose the Israeli long-term plan on the Palestinians."

by Arthur Kennedy Tue Jun 20, 2006 16:30

"The IDF has made martyrs of 3,135 killed Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza including 627 aged under 18, 181 killed in extrajudicial executions and 288 (including at least 29 aged under 18) killed in the course of these assassinations."

Of course, coming from Arab sources, the numbers are inflated. They also include the "children" killed in work place accidents (when their explosives explode and there aren't any Jews around). They also include children that the pealestinian peace movement murders because they thought they were jews. Just last week an Arab Israeli child was shot to death by the brave warriors of Islam. The family ws told that their son is a martyr for the cause. Don't forget to add in the dead "collaboprators- those are arabs who actually want peace. During the last 5 years no fewe than 75 "collaborators" were murdered, many dragged through the streets while still alive, disemboweled by the palestinian peace movoemnt and hung from lam posts (in Paliland, they're kinda like Christmas decorations, they can be seen hanging in Manger Square during the month of december)

What the palestinian need to know, and this can't be stressed enough:
In a war, both sides get to shoot.
I know it doesn't seem fair to the palestinians, but hey, that's just the way it is.

Keep up the good work IDF. You're showing remarkable restraint in the face of the "palestinian" obscenity.
(any other nation would have made shrot work of their neighbors who will not stop attacking civilians)

by Ali H. Tue Jun 20, 2006 16:59

As apparently you cannot read and also appear to have difficulty spelling the source is B'Tselem (an Israeli, not a Palestinian organisation) and is reported on the BBCs website.

The report also says:

"The above figures do not include Palestinians who died because medical treatment was delayed due to Israeli restrictions on their movement."

Very neighbourly!

by Arthur Kennedy Tue Jun 20, 2006 19:24

""The above figures do not include Palestinians who died because medical treatment was delayed due to Israeli restrictions on their movement.""

Terrorism is the cause for the restrictive movements.
I'm reminded of the palestinian peace activist who was treated at an Israeli hospital. She returned to the hospital after her recovery and to blow the place up. Kind of an Arab "Thank you" for the medical treatment.

Palestinian patient tried to blow up in the Israeli hospital where she was treated.

A young Palestinian woman, arrested on her way to blow herself up in an Israeli hospital, has been speaking about why she wanted to be a suicide bomber.

Twenty-year-old Waffa Samir Ibrahim Bass, from Jabalya refugee camp in the Gaza Strip, was caught as she attempted to cross into Israel at the Erez crossing on Monday (June 20). The woman, a burns victim, tried to use her permission to travel to the southern Israeli city of Beersheba for medical treatment.

Israeli soldiers noticed her acting suspiciously and stopped her. Bass was taken to a private storage room where she was ordered to strip. According to the army she had knee-high pants rigged with approximately 10 kilos (22 lb) of explosives.

by WhiteRabbit Tue Jun 20, 2006 20:14

"We came to an agreement with General Klifi that the most likely cause [of the blast] was unexploded Israeli ordinance," Garlasco told The Jerusalem Post following the meeting. While Klifi's team did a "competent job" to rule out the possibility that the blast was caused by artillery fire, there were still, Garlasco said, a number of pieces of evidence that the IDF commission did not take into consideration.

The main argument between Klifi and HRW surrounded the timeline of the blast, which the IDF said took between 16:57 and 15:10, at least 10 minutes after artillery fire in the area had stopped. HRW however disputes this claim and basing itself on Palestinian hospital documentation, claims that the explosion actually took place right around the time of the IDF artillery fire.

Meanwhile Monday, The Post learned that the IDF was currently inspecting a second piece of shrapnel doctors had retrieved from one of the Palestinians wounded in the blast and currently being treated at Soroka Hospital in Beersheba. A first piece of shrapnel, examined by the IDF as well as by an independent academic institute in Beersheba was found to not have come from a 155 mm shell, the type used in IDF artillery attacks on Kassam launch sites in the Gaza Strip. The second piece of shrapnel, sources said, was currently being examined in an IDF lab.

by Arthur Kennedy Tue Jun 20, 2006 20:35

No shrapnel found in Gaza victim's body

In unusual statement, Sourasky Medical Center casts further doubts on lethal blast at Gaza beach; hospital says 21 year-old Ayham Ghalia 'cleaned' of shrapnel before arriving at hospital, although it was not medically required
Meital Yasur-Beit Or

The Sourasky Medical Center in Tel Aviv has released an unusual statement, saying that that 21-year-old Ayham Ghalia, who was injured in the Gaza beach explosion , was 'cleansed' of shrapnel before arriving at the hospital.

The report casts further doubts over what happened in Gaza about a week and a half ago. The Israel Defense Forces said it was not involved in the explosion after completing an investigation it conducted, while the Palestinians continue to claim that explosion was caused by an IDF shell.

Ayham was taken to the Tel Aviv hospital, suffering from a multi-system failure.

She was hospitalized in very serious condition, and was sedated and connected to ventilator.

Ayham regained consciousness, but is still in serious condition. She is suffering from injuries to her hands, legs, and stomach.

Unusual practice

The hospital said that the shrapnel should only be removed when the shrapnel forms an immediate danger to the patient, adding that it was unclear why all of the shrapnel was removed from Ayham's body, despite the fact that they did not form an immediate danger, and their removal did not contribute to an improvement in her situation.

The hospital said in a statement that "the medical treatment did not fit the injury."

by Noel Tue Jun 20, 2006 23:08

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=115035552802...wFull

Time to change the misleading title of this thread.

by kintama Wed Jun 21, 2006 01:21

Shocking story about nasty Arabs removing shrapnel from a wounded person except for a bit that could'nt be removed what sort of hospitals do they run. A Jewish newspaper absolving its state murderers of responsibility for the slaughter of innocents has about as much credibility as the Sunday World.
More good news for Noel two more young children and a teenager murdered by the IDF probably thrown out into the street by their parents when they heard the missiles coming for the propaganda value their deaths would bring. Give the IDF the child before they are seven years old and they will never see their eight birthday.

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 21, 2006 01:30

"two more young children and a teenager murdered by the IDF probably thrown out into the street by their parents when they heard the missiles coming"

Perhaps the brave warriors of Islam, who routinely hang out where there are women and children would consider that - for every action, there will be an opposite and unequal reaction.
Note to Palestinian Arabs: In a war, both sides get to shoot.

by Paddy Wed Jun 21, 2006 03:07

Its not a war, its a criminal action. Its an attack by an occupying military force against the captive civilian population. Its an international disgrace. We are all implicated in it. Its not a war, stop propogating a myth . Armies attack, people die, its plain to see, stop all army attacks against civilians. Its a crime. Stop the murder.

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 21, 2006 03:30

"Armies attack, people die, its plain to see, stop all army attacks against civilians. "

Paddy me boy...the door of war swings both ways. Mahmoud Abbas disagrees with you.

Abbas calls for halt to Qassams
Abbas called Tuesday on militant groups to stop firing rockets against Israel, warning that they would be responsible for any Israeli retaliation, an official said.

"President Abbas called on all military groups in Gaza to stop launching rockets at Israel and to fully comply with the truce with Israel," said Abbas aide Nabil Abu Rudeineh.

"President Abbas holds any group and any faction that violates the truce fully responsible for the destruction and demolitions and victims that will result because of any Israeli imminent aggression."

by Arthur Guiness Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:28

Paddy, don't bother engaging with the clown, he's a nasty little racist who finds the death of children amusing. Just take it as read that any decent people reading this thread will find his fanatical bigotry obnoxious and ignore everything he says

by Ali H. Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:18

Critical Damage Inflicted on Medical Services in the Occupied Territories - An Interim Report

"In recent weeks, following the invasion of the Palestinian cities, PHR-Israel has received dozens of complaints reflecting grave injury to medical services: ambulances, hospitals, medical personnel, the evacuation of the injured, the transfer of the sick and the provision of food. Existing infringements, such as delaying and preventing the passage of sick persons and medical personnel, were exacerbated still further and new infringements were seen, including shooting at medical personnel and shelling hospitals. Below we present the principal infringements in the medical sphere, with reference to the international conventions providing protection against such infringements. The cases reported below are only examples - dozens more cases have been reported to PHR-Israel and processed by the staff members over the past week."

http://www.phrusa.org/healthrights/phr_isr041002.html

The IDF is of course guilty of many attacks on Palestinian hospitals, ambulances and even UN bases but why bother with details like these when lying professionally on behalf of the Israeli government.

"Now, in the last 45 minutes, the hospital in Beit Jala, the main hospital for the area, has come under attack four times. About an hour ago, a man was killed inside the hospital when it came under fire. Just now, an anesthesiology technician has been wounded. The director has reported major damage to the building and that tanks are at the entrance. This is not the first time shots have been directed there. Yesterday, when the director was being interviewed on television, a window behind him shattered from gunfire."

http://www.afsc.org/pwork/0111/011113.htm

They also have nothing against massacring refugees and UN peacekeepers inside UN bases:

"On April 18, 1996, amid heavy fighting between the Israeli Defense Forces and Hezbollah during "Operation Grapes of Wrath", a Fijian UNIFIL compound in the village was shelled by Israeli artillery. Around 800 Lebanese civilians had taken refuge there to escape the fighting, of whom approximately 100 were killed and around 116 others, including four UNIFIL soldiers were also seriously injured.

The U.N. appointed military advisor Major-General Franklin van Kappen of the Netherlands to investigate the incident. Van Kappen's report implies the attack was intentional."

The IDF also attack medical personnel with impunity:

"Three medical workers suffered shrapnel and gunshot wounds as they attended the injured. Due to the interference of Israeli troops, it took more than 30 minutes to evacuate the wounded personnel. One of the medical workers, suffering shrapnel wounds that had severed an artery in his leg, was removed from an ambulance by Israeli soldiers and held at one of their checkpoints for an hour. According to the ambulance driver, soldiers looked at the medical worker’s wounds and said, “Good, let him die, you can go only after he is dead.”

Other medical workers were reportedly forced to act as human shields by standing between stone throwing youth and Israeli troops. The Israeli Physicians for Human Rights organisation issued a statement in which they “strongly condemn[ed] this attack on medical personnel as a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention which clearly stipulates the neutrality of medical teams and workers.”

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/mar2006/isra-m02.shtml

There are also Zionist nutters who try less successfully to blow up Palestinian hospitals:

"Jewish extremist plot to blow up a Palestinian hospital and a girls' school in Arab East Jerusalem, arresting the bombers as they attempted to install their high-powered explosives."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,714484,00....html

by Paddy Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:36

When the freedom fighters of Ireland blew up 31 people in Omagh there was no call for a retaliatory strike. Nobody in the English Houses of parliament called for a ferocious response. What If the British had bombed Ireland, targetted a few criminals, killed ten or twenty children in collateral damage on Main Street, Drogheda, maybe assassinated a Martin mc Guiness figure for good measure.
When canary Wharf was bombed , going by the Israeli line of reasoning, the British should have levelled Dublin from Fairview Park to the Pigeon House and barricaded the Irish Government into Leinster House, and possibly put all the Irish on another diet.
When the British shot dead 14 civilians in Derry, going by the Israeli book of Rules, that would have been a measured response to the firing of terrorist rifles at the army and the thoughts of having a tribunal would be funny, Sure ten of them were terrrorists or terrorist supporters anyway.
You dont have to dress up Israeli crimes as anything , we will accept them just the way they are. Now our own government is complicit in aiding and abetting a collective punishment against the Civilian population of Palestine. Collective punishment is a crime. Why are we helping to starve their kids to death ? Because they attacked us ? Because they attacked the Israelis? No, the Irish are helping to starve the Palestinians because they voted for the wrong political party.
The truth is out, nobody needs to dress up these massacres and crimes against children anymore. It's acceptable , our government supports it. You voted for them, so now you support it. Nobody need to think up clever reasons anymore, its part of our national policy to punish the Palestinians in contravention of International law.
The Noels and the Arthur K.s are out of a job. Bye, Bye.

by Noel Wed Jun 21, 2006 14:38

There are also Zionist nutters who try less successfully to blow up Palestinian hospitals:

And what happened to these nutters?
The Israeli security forces arrest them.
Israeli society is appalled by them.
Israeli politicians of all hues condemn them.

Compare the reaction of Palestinian society to their own murderous scumbags.
Allowed to operate with impunity within the PA.
Lauded as heroes and martyrs by Palestinian society.
Palestinian politicians cheerlead them.

Things that should make you go hmmmmm....

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 21, 2006 16:48

"No, the Irish are helping to starve the Palestinians because they voted for the wrong political party. "

The palestinians are free to vote for whomever they wish. Western nations that have maintained the palestinians on the dole for 60 years are also free NOT to support them if they so wish. That's democracy for you.
The palestinians are living with their choices, as did the germans when they elected Adolf Hitler.

by Ali H. Wed Jun 21, 2006 19:02

"THE Israeli Army has told The New York Times that its report was flawed because it failed to mention two gunboat shells fired at about the time of the deaths.

The Israeli contention that the shelling had to have happened between 4:57 and 5:10 (and after it ceased fire) is wrong since this UN transmission confirms the beach massacre at 4:43.

And Israel has already admitted it WAS shelling at 4:43PM.

Now I understand why pro-Israel hardliners hate the UN so.

I find it interesting that the IDF only admitted its error after being presented with incontrovertible physical evidence.

What other facts might they be concealing??

Can anyone doubt that further qualifications and backtracking may be forthcoming?

Please tell me how a gold-plated IDF investigation led by a general misses the fact that Israeli gunboats shelled the beach area at the same time as the deadly shells landed?

I’ve always said here that the Israeli explanation stank to high heaven."

by Adolf Kennedy Wed Jun 21, 2006 19:12

Meretz Knesset Member Zehava Gal-On Saturday called on the government to ask for an international investigation of the deaths of seven Arabs on a Gaza beach earlier this month.

MK Gal-On said that Israel has a "moral responsibility" and that its credibility would be upheld if there were an international probe.

She also noted human rights groups allegations that the IDF altered evidence to shirk responsibility for the deaths.

by Arthur Kennedy Wed Jun 21, 2006 21:05

"She also noted human rights groups allegations that the IDF altered evidence to shirk responsibility for the deaths."

Old news. Since then, it's been discovered that palestinin doctors removed some shrapnel from the bodies of those transfered to Israel for medical treatment. Wooops, there wer some bits they couldn't reach.
Hurray for Pallywood!!

by Adolf Kennedy Wed Jun 21, 2006 22:04

strange=lies

United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan has expressed doubt over an Israel Defense Forces probe determining that the blast on a Gaza Strip beach last Friday that killed seven civilians was caused by a mine or explosive device, placed by Palestinians to prevent IDF troops from reaching the area.

In an interview published in the London-based Arabic language daily Al-Hayat, Annan regarded the IDF's version of the events as "strange." The IDF investigation team examining the incident concluded Tuesday "beyond all doubt" that the casualties were not the result of Israeli shelling

by Ali H. Wed Jun 21, 2006 22:35

"There is an urgent need for the government to revisit and revise its policy on relations with Israel.

In particular there is a need to end its policy of preferential trade relations with Israel in order to hold that country accountable for its persistent human rights violations in Palestine, especially in light of the increased intensity of attacks by Israel amounting to the collective punishment of Palestinians.

These attacks, including the attack last Friday on a beach which killed 7 Palestinians including 3 children and the missile strike on Gaza city today which killed 9 Palestinains including 2 more children, are war crimes."

by Ali H. Wed Jun 21, 2006 22:41

" The killing of seven members of the Ghalia family on 9 June on a beach in the North of the Gaza Strip is only one example of Israel’s unwillingness to conduct a full and impartial inquiry to establish the truth.

In spite of a growing body of evidence indicating that the victims were killed by Israeli army shelling, the authorities continue to deny all responsibility and have failed to take the necessary measures to adequately investigate the killings.

Such procedures, in which the Israeli army effectively investigates itself, have tended to exculpate Israeli soldiers and seem to have been aimed more at fending off international criticism than at establishing the truth.

Most killings of unarmed Palestinians, including children, are not even mentioned – let alone investigated – by the Israeli authorities "

by Arthur Kennedy Thu Jun 22, 2006 03:52

"Most killings of unarmed Palestinians, including children, are not even mentioned – let alone investigated – by the Israeli authorities ""

It sucks when both sides get to shoot.

by Ali H. Thu Jun 22, 2006 09:28

While it might seem perfectly acceptable to you the logic of firing back at random on unarmed civilians which is employed systematically by the IDF in Gaza and the West Bank was last used by the Nazis in occupied Europe.

"Just following orders" is a type of legal defense argument often used by the perpetrators of war crimes.

However under the Nuremberg Principles, "defense of superior orders" is not a defense for war crimes.

In addition if the Israelis were interested in learning from history as opposed to repeating it they would realise that this tactic in addition to other forms of collective punishment formerly used by the Nazis does nothing to enhance the security of their own citizens and in fact exacerbates the root problem.

by Paddy Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:36

It is brutally apparent that the Israeli army is a law unto itself. A state within a state.The Zionists of 48 gave birth to a force of arms that could not be denied then. In 48 it was considered a necessity, but as 60 years elapsed that sense of urgency was never checked and the raw omnipotence of the army curtailed. The army has remained the linchpin of Israeli society. Strength of arms , purity of arms, the unquestionable right to self defense pervaded the spirit of Israel and took over, never letting go. It's at the core of government , its at the core of society, it's at the core of the Israeli psyche. Sabras rule by strength of arms.
Inject 5 billion american dollars a year and what you have is one humungous coked up bull in a china store. It couldn't stop itself even if it wanted to. Every utterance is a self ordained prophecy , pre-ordained with rigtheousness. What it needs is a dose of reality. A worlwide embargo on all things Israeli. A UN investigation into the effect that American funding has on fuelling the psychosis of this deranged brute and the preparation of an international force to fill the void when the mad bull is tranquilised and put back in it's pen.
The future generations of Israel need independence from the militant hegemony of the Israeli army as much as do the Palestinians. The Israeli youth need a future free from the long dark tunnel of Israeli military paranoia.
Boycott Israel, abolish the American military gravy train to Israel and free the youth of the Middle East from a future of military hegemony.
Free Israel and Palestine from the tyranny of militancy.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4832.shtml

by Geoff Thu Jun 22, 2006 17:13

Noel,

Thank you for the honestreporting.com atricle. However, this only shows some print and radio journalists are Palestinians. I'd also like to get the source of the honestreporting.com claim that the BBC Gaza reporter made a claim at a Hamas rally saying that media and Palestinians were joined togeter to expose Israeli actions.

You have thus used an article that gives information about four Palestinian journalists, three print and one radio, and stated that all cameramen may be Hamas member as a result of this articles findings.

So, I am afraid to say, you still have offered no verifiable proof that every cameraman working for Sky is a Palestinian.I hope you can find something for me that may expand on your original claim.

While I am not impressed with the actions of the Israeli State, the IDF and the settlers,(in fact, I'm usually disgusted.) I do know that the Palestinian authority are not innocent of embellishing the truth themselves. In fisrt casulty of war is truth, and all that.

Later,
All the best
Geoff

by Geoff Thu Jun 22, 2006 17:25

Not many commentators from the pro Israeli spectrum have any definative argument as to the morality of settlement building. One writer, Alan Dershowitz (The Case for Israel, Wiley Press, New York, 2003) devoted a chapter that numbers four pages to this question.

While he quite rightly brought up the fact that Hebron was made "Judenrein" in 1929 by Arab militia while British troops stood by, he negates to answer why it is right that after the occupation of 1967, Arab farmers were forced off their olive groves and farms so that these huge settlements could be built, and the fact that water has been drawn away from Arab villages so that these settlements could have swimming pools amongst other commodities. In Hebron today, 80% of the water has been diverted from Hebrons majorety Arab populace to accomadate the few thousand settlers.

The land seized for settlements has now been incorporated into Israel, and the Security fence encloses these settlements.

Of course, there is the argument that Germany, ustria, etc both lost land after the end of both world wars. Jordan thus lost the West Bank.

The question in the latter case is; are ordinary civilians been punished by having their livelyhoods destroyed to make way for settlements?Or is this merely another consequence of the victors takes the spoils?

I hope both sides in this argument address this question.

Regards
Geoff :0)

by Paddy Fri Jun 23, 2006 00:21

Geoff said: The question in the latter case is; are ordinary civilians been punished by having their livelyhoods destroyed to make way for settlements?

No Geoff, thats not a question. Its an understated fact. They are not losing their livelihoods, they are losing everything ; Homes, Children, Lives, Past, Present, Future.

Here IS a question,

When are the Elected representatives of the Palestinian people going to be allowed to do their jobs and present to Israel and the world their mandate?

Here's another question,

When is the International community going to penalise Israel for its crimes?

And another,

When is Europe going to take America to task for pumping billions into stirring up blood bath after blood bath , be it with its own forces or its proxy forces, around the world ?

There is no two sides to this argument Geoff. Just the one.

by Arthur Kennedy Fri Jun 23, 2006 04:43

"
When are the Elected representatives of the Palestinian people going to be allowed to do their jobs and present to Israel and the world their mandate?"

Paddy me boy, they've already done that. It's called intifada.

Ya might wanna give the Hamas Charter a read, so you can be on the same page with them.
Their peace plan is the complete destruction of Israel.

by Noel Fri Jun 23, 2006 07:32

Geoff,
If one sees beyond the rhetoric of olive groves and keys and victim status there are two basic facts:
From an Israeli perspective this conflict is simply a real estate dispute.
From the Palestinian perspective the Jews must be driven into the sea.

The two-state solution will come to pass - most likely the security barrier will mark
the new Israeli border.
However, it would be naive to assume that Hamas et al would
stop killing Israelis if they retreated to the arbitrary 1967 ceasefire lines.

Perhaps the biggest mistake was to name the area TransJordan and not Palestine.

And talk about progressive, how about this beauty from Paddy:
There is no two sides to this argument Geoff. Just the one.

by Geoff Fri Jun 23, 2006 14:30

Noel, you wrote;

"From the Palestinian perspective the Jews must be driven into the sea"

Noel, I have heard of surveys carried out that show most Palestinians are prepared to acept the existence of Israel. Why did they vote Hamas, you may ask? It seems they did so because Hamas is not just an armed militia; they are a movement that provide day to day essential medical services and other forms of welfare for ordinary Palestinians.Money that had been diverted away by corrupt elements in the PA post Oslo was supposedly intended for such services. Now Hamas attempt to fill that void, and hence have gotten themselves elected.

Paddy,

There are always two sides to the argument. Yes, Israel has the uper hand, but tell me this; What thinks you of the 1929 Hebron massacre of Jews by Arab milita, while British troops stood by?

There are always two sides, you see, and not in the sense of who is right, who is wrong, but rather to get a wider paradigm on any given situation.

by Geoff Fri Jun 23, 2006 14:35

Understanding objectivly the arguments presented by both, the historical dynamics behind a situation, etc, is important. Often people ask, what leads young men to become suicide bombers? What leads the Israeli state to seize land and destroy livelyhoods in such a wanton and cruel manner?Is one side in general more psychotic than the other? Are neither?

Most people are capable of great cruelty. Do a google on either the Standford University Prison Experiment, or Stanly Milgram.

by Paddy Fri Jun 23, 2006 23:39

Dear Geoff,

I think that the 1929 massacre in Hebron must have been an appalling event.

What has that got to do with the Current breakdown of civilisation vis a vis the siege of Palestine. Where does that come into play in the necessity to cease the continuing mass killings of Palestinian families, the starvation of Palestinian population and the general world embargo against the elected representatives of the Palestinian people?

There are no two sides Geoff. There is the Hegemony of the American military project and its closely related partner : the ISraeli project for the destruction of Palestinian National aspiration - two very closely associated projects at this time, both on the same side.

The Palestinian government has an unmitigated right to carry out it's mandate. The collective punishment of the People for their democratic decision to put Hamas in government is a crime.
Palestine must be the only place in the world where the international community has openly decided to instigate malnutrition and poverty and mayhem as a diplomatic policy.
When you are walking down the road next time and some red vested Charity mugger tries to tell you that you have a responsibility to combat poverty in Sudan , stop the famine, all that guff...than keep your hands in your p[ockets and keep walking. It is now government policy of all the major civilised western countries to blackmail the Palestinians by forcing their kids into malnourishment and poverty. When they have gotten what they want from Palestine, they'll probably start on Sudan , Think about it - and dont waste your money .
By the way, you're wasting your time reading Dershowitz. You may as well have spent a month in Ramallah holed up with Yasser Arafat asking him for the lowdown on the whole story for all the objectivity you would get.

Anton Le Guardia: Israelis and Palestinians. At least he takes no sides.

by Arthur Kennedy Sat Jun 24, 2006 00:01

"The collective punishment of the People for their democratic decision to put Hamas in government is a crime."

The Germans made their democratic decision as well. Look where it got them. Carpet bombs and 60 years of occupation.

by benny morris Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:51

So did the Zionists - when they decided to colonise Palestine - and they too must live with it !

Bet they sometimes regret that they didn't go for the Madagascar Plan ... that would have saved a lot of hassle all round.

by Noel Sat Jun 24, 2006 16:38

'Bet they sometimes regret that they didn't go for the Madagascar Plan ... that would have saved a lot of hassle all round.'

FYI Benny,
The Jews 'didn't go' for the Madagascar Plan because the 'did go' for the Holocaust Plan.
It's curious why someone so ignorant of history would choose that monicker.

by benny morris Sat Jun 24, 2006 23:05

I was responding to the comment by your alter-ego about the "Palestinian's choice". To the best of my knowledge, the Palestinians never chose to have their land colonised by the Zionists. The initial "choice" was made by the Zionists to colonise Palestine.
This was a choice - other options were considered and rejected.

Refer to Herzl's "Judenstaat":
"Those Jews who agree with our idea of a State will attach themselves to the Society, which will thereby be authorized to confer and treat with Governments in the name of our people.
The Society will thus be acknowledged in its relations with Governments as a State-creating power. This acknowledgment will practically create the State. Should the Powers declare themselves willing to admit our sovereignty over a neutral piece of land, then the Society will enter into negotiations for the possession of this land.
Here two territories come under consideration, Palestine and Argentine. In both countries important experiments in colonization have been made, though on the mistaken principle of a gradual infiltration of Jews. An infiltration is bound to end badly. It continues till the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened, and forces the Government to stop a further influx of Jews. Immigration is consequently futile unless we have the sovereign right to continue such immigration."

Get the point ? Do I need to spell it out for you ? OK here goes.
The colonisation of Palestine (and associated ethnic cleansings) was a deliberate political choice made by the Zionists. They have to live with the consequences of that choice.

OK you seem to have a little problem with the Madagascar Plan. So let's say maybe the Zionists regret that they didn't follow Herzl's alternative suggestion - the Argentine Plan:
"Argentine is one of the most fertile countries in the world, extends over a vast area, has a sparse population and a mild climate. The Argentine Republic would derive considerable profit from the cession of a portion of its territory to us. The present infiltration of Jews has certainly produced some discontent, and it would be necessary to enlighten the Republic on the intrinsic difference of our new movement."

Happy now ? No, I didn't think so ... but then you guys never are !

by Geoff Sun Jun 25, 2006 16:31

"What has that got to do with the Current breakdown of civilisation vis a vis the siege of Palestine. Where does that come into play in the necessity to cease the continuing mass killings of Palestinian families, the starvation of Palestinian population and the general world embargo against the elected representatives of the Palestinian people?"

History matters in the collective mindset of many ethnic groups, they will use a significant event in their history to sometimes justify present policies carried out by that group. Thus, the Afrikaans used to justify Apartheid by harking back to Zulu attacks on 19th century Boer treekers. In Northern Ireland, Ian Paisley would often utilise the memory of the 1641 massacre of Protestants. Lebanese Christians have the massacre of their people by the Druze.

And Israeli Jews remember the Hebron massacre.

I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing; what such events do is help contribute to is the 'siege mentality'.
The siege mentality then allows the group to carry out reckless massacres in turn.So, the Hebron massacre has enabled what you outlined above to occur.Of course it is not necessary to carry out such a brutal plicy of occupation but this is what justifies such cruelty in the mind of the young IDF soldier or settler.

by Ali H. Sun Jun 25, 2006 19:36

the slaughter of an entire family having a picnic on a Gaza beach by indiscriminate IDF shelling.

The crude attempt to bury the truth by a rushed and obviously biased "investigation" which even most Israelis do not believe does nothing to improve Israeli security and if anything reduces it!

Whataboutery and cherry-picking historical events to justify systematic and sustained brutality is a diversionary tactic.

by Arthur Kennedy Sun Jun 25, 2006 21:28

"the slaughter of an entire family having a picnic on a Gaza beach by indiscriminate IDF shelling

Another successful Pallywood Production.
Guaranteed to win awards at the Teheran InterIslamic Film Festival

by Arthur Guiness Sun Jun 25, 2006 23:23

Long after anyone sensible has tuned out of his ravings, he's still raving on, denying the facts that contradict his fanatical, deranged, racist world view. He just can't help himself. Someone get this guy a doctor

by Arthur Kennedy Mon Jun 26, 2006 04:09

"Someone get this guy a doctor"

Your remarks are as cutting as poison soaked shrapnel from a palestinian peace missiles

by Ali H. Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:38

Uzi Benziman of Haaretz has written a compelling column about the IDF’s moral turpitude in its treatment of Palestinian civilians. And even more importantly in light of the IDF’s recent feeble attempts at investigating its own possible moral lapses–its lazy, hazy record of pursuing and prosecuting such investigations.

"Describing the discrepancy between the versions of the state authorities and the [Palestinian] victims…as one that leaves the Israeli public wondering - is an understatement.

Many Israelis actually believe the Palestinians, or those who speak for them, and not because they are consumed with self-hatred.

They have regrettable precedents:

abuse of Palestinians that is initially denied until clear-cut evidence discredits the denials (testimony from “soldiers breaking the code of silence”);

deaths of foreign human rights activists, which the state authorities ignore until international pressure compels them to investigate the circumstances in depth (the case of Tom Hurndall);

bogus descriptions of how innocent people were killed during assassinations from the air (the Salah Shehada hit);

false accusations against international bodies (the claims that UNRWA had helped transport a Qassam rocket while photos proved it was a stretcher);

etc etc."

"That strategic weapon - credibility - self-destructs: The moment it misses its target, it becomes junk….

Strangely, the fact that no one believes their versions puzzles the defense establishment’s top brass. These honorable individuals - in and out of uniform - cannot understand why their explanations are now unreliable.

A dramatic change has recently occurred: The defense establishment’s announcements are a priori suspect unless their validity can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt."