New material on The ISN website: Italy’s Red Decade Social struggles & political power 1968-80 //

by A O'R Tue Jun 06, 2006 01:01

This is what the lumpen proletariat of Finglas has been calling out for. Never mind the day to day shit of Irish politics, we need more pamplets on Italian history. You ISN are spot on with your politics. I cannot wait until 2064 when your pamplet on current politics will be produced. Happy Days.

by Ois - WSM Tue Jun 06, 2006 02:31

Just had a bried look at it and it looks interesting. Seems to concentrate on the CPI which is a bit surprising but I'll print it off as soon as my exams are over and give it a read.

Actually a few of the essays and pamphlets look interesting. I'll have a look at what Fintan has to say about Pannekoek as well.

Fair Play for producing these.

And A O'R that was one of the stupidest comments I've read on indymedia for a while.

by Pat Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:14

Funny how some people think it makes sense of sneer at theoretical development. Do they find it threatening in some way?

for the reord A'OR, the ISN is not just based in Finglas. Yes, it has a branch there but the group also has other members in Dublin and a branch in Belfast. It makes no claim to be a big group but it is growing.

by Colm - ISN personal capacity Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:47 breathc at hotmail dot com

Im not sure what A O' R's point is. Is it that she/he thinks left-wing groups should not produce any theoretical/historical material? Fair enough if thats your view, though it makes little sense to me.

From the tone of his contribution, she/he seems to be implying that the ISN is much more interested in theoretical work than in practical work on the ground. What she/he does not seem to understand is that in a healthy left-wing organisation both elements go hand in hand and are in fact intimately linked. For example, the ISN has been engaged in a lenghty internal debate about elections, left alliances and grassroots campaigning, arising out of our own experiences in the anti-bin tax campaign in Dublin and the anti-water charges campaign in Belfast. What happens in the cut and thrust of campaigning has a decisive impact on our 'theoretical' debates. This is not to say that the balance is perfect, it never is, and there is a constant need to correct a tendency to neglect one or other element of work. Only a complete fool would think that 'doing theory' excludes practical activity. Does A O' R really think that because one member of the ISN writes two short pamphlets on Italy, that all ISN activity grinds to a halt until he is finished. 'Sorry comrades, we can't distribute those anti-water tax leaflets in Turf Lodge this evening 'cos the leaflet on Italy isnt finished yet'.

For A O'R's information the ISN publishes and distributes a bi-monthly community newsletter, 'The Finglas People' to thousands of homes in the area. If he's so interested in the working people of FInglas, he can come and help us distribute the next issue or if he's into broader campaigning, he might like to get involved in the Finglas Anti-Bin Tax Campaign, where he can work together with ISN members, and others, on one issue that effects working people right now.

As for his sneers, if A O' R posts under his full/real name, I will gladly compare his record of 'practical activism' over the years with that of various ISN activists. Its easy to jeer from the sidelines, especially when you are not willing to engage in open and honest debate, but might be a tad embarrassing to give an account of your own record.

by Ois - WSM Tue Jun 06, 2006 13:17

one member of the ISN writes two short pamphlets on Italy

Yeah they say 'an ISN pamphlet' and are unsigned. I doubted they were a collective effort. I couldn't ask who wrote the prieces could I?

by James R - WSM (pers cap) Tue Jun 06, 2006 15:39

Those dismissive comments really are as misguided as even the worst trolling I've seen on Indymedia. Fair play for producing the pamphletts, its good to see some original material being churned out and people devoting time to the realisation that theoritical thinking is needed especially as an alternative to rushing into often misguided political action on the basis of "hand me down" political templates. Whats especially good about these two peices is that they eye up rather recent revolutionary history, where lessons can really be drawn that are relevant to how struggle can emerge and be shaped today. For those of us engaged in political work in the industrial west not enough goes into realising and taking on the recent revolutionary history and its lessons opting instead to batter each other with copies of Lenin or Bakunin.

by MichaelY - iawm - per cap Tue Jun 06, 2006 17:04

"Funny how some people think it makes sense to sneer at theoretical development. Do they find it threatening in some way?"

Of course they do...and the development of revolutionary theory [a completely different animal from throwing ideology about] frightens the shit out of all those whose 'practice' is geared solely around getting themselves, or their cronies/leaders, elected in some structure or other. Robust theoretical development is a massive weapon in the hands of an insurgent class or people.

Well done to the ISN re: their Italian pamphlet. It triggered a desire to search my cupboards. After a trip back to the past I discovered with glee a fantastic little pamphlet entitled 'Italy - Documents of Struggle' . It was published by the Ripening of Time (no.12) in December 1979 and has, as well as a short historical analysis of political developments in Italy (II World War - 1978), translations of documents from the NAP, the Red Brigades, Workers Autonomy and Prima Linea....some of these organisations are referred to in the ISN pamphlet. I don't believe these documents were ever again translated into English!

Interested to have a look at it? Let me know and well done again ISN!

by Curious Tue Jun 06, 2006 17:10

Where did you get this material. Was it perhaps captured from Red Brigade militants by Italian Intelligence and passed on to you?

by MichaelY - iawm Tue Jun 06, 2006 17:14

The Ripening of Time was published in Dublin in December 1979. I have a copy for all those who want to see. As far as I know the material was translated into English by a number of people working with that publication.
Curious - you are a pain....and not, in this case, a very bright one!

by Dan - ISN Tue Jun 06, 2006 20:17

Ois, I wrote the two pamphlets, I've had an interest in Italian politics for a long time and I thought it'd be useful to produce something accessible for people to read. I wouldn't say they express a collective ISN "line" on recent Italian history (I don't think it's even appropriate or feasible for a socialist organisation to have a well-defined line on subjects like this), although they are certainly informed by our general political outlook.

Regarding the focus on the Italian Communist Party: the first pamphlet certainly focuses on the PCI, because they were firmly in control of the movement at that time - the Action Party and the Socialists were never really able to challenge that dominance. Between (roughly speaking) the mid twenties and the early sixties, I think Spain was the only country where there was a real alternative to the official Communist movement on the radical left, with the Anarchists and the POUM. For better or worse (and I certainly think it was for worse, as should be clear from the pamphlet), the Communists led the workers' movement in Italy after the war.

The second one is a little more complex. I hope it's clear from what I wrote that the upsurge of worker militancy after 1968 was not initiated by the Communists, in fact they were completely out of step with the movement, and the activists of the New Left played a much more important role. The same could be said of every other collective-action campaign or movement (for example, the Communists had a women's section called the UDI; they eventually broke with the party altogether and struck out on their own because they thought the PCI was incapable of responding properly to the feminist movement).

But having said this, the New Left groups were unable to supplant the Communists as the main left-wing force: partly because of their own weaknesses (which I discuss), partly because the political stage was already crowded out by the Communist party. I suppose you'd disagree with my view that they should have contested elections, but I don't think this was the most important thing anyway - more important was the fact that they were unable to keep up their challenge to the Communist trade union leadership in the factories.

In the end, the majority of people who wanted Italian society to change put their faith in the Communists, and the Communists led the movement up a dead-end. Other elements on the Italian Left can certainly be criticised, but their responsibility was much smaller than the PCI's - I don't agree with the politics of the autonomists, for example, but they were never in the same position as the Communists, with millions of people backing their strategy and a mass movement behind them. Toni Negri never had the opportunities that were granted to Enrico Berlinguer and the rest of the PCI leadership.

by Ois Tue Jun 06, 2006 20:29

Not sure if I'd agree with all that. But I'll read the pamphlets before I respond. Talk to you over a pint about it sometime. As you may know I have a mild infatuation with the Italian New Left.

by Barry - 32csm Tue Jun 06, 2006 20:55

Its god to see others engaging in this particular process , looking for a way forward by examining projects which were launched in other countries in modern revolutionary times. This is similar to the process which has been ongoing within 32csm for the past while , examination of the theories of Fanon , Marcuse , Sartre , projects such as the Red Army Faction and the Black Panther Movement and the struggles for sovereignty underway in Venezuela and Bolivia as well as the radical struggles such as the land league which evolved in this country . I feel its important to examine the history , ideas challenges and failures thrown up by these theories and projects and look for ideas and inspiration in both their successes and failures as well as the questions they pose for radicals today . Similar to the idea of producing these leaflets the Sovereign Nation has carreied articles on such projects and ideas that came to the fore in the late 60s and 70s and will continue to do so in order to promote the debate on the way forward .

Its unsurprising to see the howls from those who see failed ancient orthodoxy being challenged and Id agree that the quest to become head of some structure by proving ones commitment to ancient ideological purity can be an all too familiar phenomenon , not confined to the left in Ireland Id add .

Anyway its good to see others taking an interest in the projects of that era that despite their shortcomings and mistakes held a lot of potential to change politics in Europe and elsewhere in a radical fashion .

by Dan Tue Jun 06, 2006 20:57

Fair enough if you disagree. I don't think it's possible to have a "right" or "wrong" opinion about that period - it's impossible to say what would have happened if x, y or z had not been the case, we can't go back in history and do laboratory experiments. I tried to provide enough information in the two pamphlets for people to make their own judgements, but obviously my own interpretation comes through. If people don't agree with my opinion that's fine, but I think it's important that people on the left have some opinions on the subject - anyone who wants to see a transition to socialism in the developed world, by whatever path, should look at the Italian experience and see what lessons can be drawn.

by Colm - ISN personal capacity Tue Jun 06, 2006 21:53 breathc at hotmail dot com

Some of interesting points have been raised in this debate. I agree with Dan on the question of a 'party line' on historic events. While one would and should expect the general politics of an organisation to be reflected in its members views and writings, it is incorrect to insist that members share a specific analysis of a historical event. Of course there are limits, for example I can't see how a member of the ISN, a participatory socialist organisation, would justify Stalins terror but it would be easy to envisage a diversity of views on, lets say, the Nicaraguan revolution of the 1980s.

What is important is a person's current political position. Is it really important if I think the Bolsheviks were rotten from the start and you believe that they were initially correct and later degenerated, if we both agree that today a healthy revolutionary organisation should be organised openly and democratically. How we came to that conclusion is of secondary importance. Of course, this is where the study of historic examples is useful, because it helps us to clarify and progress current debates about todays struggles. For example, it was primarily through my practical experience as a member of the WP over a decade but also from my own study of the history of the Russian Revolution that I came to the view that democratic centralism/leninism is a completely anti-democratic method of organisation which invariably leads to elitist top-down organisational structures. Now others in the ISN may have come to the same conclusion but via a different route and may well hold a different view of the Russian Revolution. So debate and discussion about historic events is important but conformity on such issues is unhealthy.

On different note, since AO'R has decided to re-enter the fray, perhaps she/he would respond to the points I made earlier following his/her initial sneers at the ISN. If she/he does so under her/his real name I will gladly engage in a discussion with her/him about the issues raised, including his/her respective record of 'practical' activism and that of ISN members.

by Barry Wed Jun 07, 2006 00:09

any organisation which does not include internal democracy as a vital ingredient of its own strategy is pretty much doomed to stagnate and degenerate . If people cant have a variety of outlooks as towards historic events as well as the way forward then its impossible for any meaningful critical analysis to take place , and therefore real understanding of the issues is lost . Then one is reliant solely upon edicts from a ruling clique who will interpret the events and lessons for those under them, the intellectual base of your organisation is stifled , personality cults and yes men as opposed to thinking articulate activists come to the fore and it ends in disaster every time . The quest for ideological purity as opposed to the search for effective action and strategy is a strait jacket that can rarely if ever accomodate internal democracy .

by Brendan - ISN Personal Capacity Wed Jun 07, 2006 01:08

Just back from a public meeting in the Cliftonville area of Belfast re Water Privatisation (CAWP) helping local residents organise a group to oppose water charges.
A O'R Are you familiar with term unity of opposites? Or just some sad person with little else to do but criticise genuine attempts to open debate on the left.