Ógra Shinn Féin Demand meeting with Taoiseach

by JD Thu May 25, 2006 08:40

Jesus lads, ya can't have young people committing suicide, killing people is our job!!!!

by ah bertie.. Thu May 25, 2006 23:16

just MAKE UP your mind for once.

by John - dunaree2000 Fri May 26, 2006 13:24

Where is the evidence to support your claim that an All-Ireland strategy would be the most effective one for reducing suicide? Why not a British Isles strategy? Or a European strategy? Or separate Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland strategies? The evidence for one is as good as the evidence for any of the others. Most people contemplating suicide couldn't care less whether the strategy employed to prevent them doing so is an All-Ireland one or not. Just because you're hung up on the idea of an All-Ireland State doesn't give you the right to exploit every tragic issue by claiming without evidence that an All-Ireland approach would be more successful in reducing suicide than any other approach. If the DUP were to campaign for a British Isles strategy as the most effective way of reducing suicide, they'd be laughed at. I can see no difference between that and your position.

by Jesus Wept Fri May 26, 2006 13:55

Duh, it is called combining resources and ideas on athe same (small) island.

(A "British Isles strategy" would not include any part of Ireland as, according to the name of the state, ‘The UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland’, not one part of it is British).

What part of that do you not understand?

by Mmmm Fri May 26, 2006 14:23

Working class catholic neighbourhoods in Belfast often have the highest suicide rate in Ireland. Many people believe that this is due to punishment beatings for petty crimes which leave teenage boys most vunerable. This is not an issue that is faced by Irish men across the country so I don't see how an "all Ireland" strategy will help this issue. Perhaps Orga Sinn Fein could see about putting pressure on their "grown up" party. Dissent republicans still carry out punishment beatings. They could only do so with either the implied support or at the very least, the IRA's unwilliness to take them to task on this.

That dissent republicans exist is at least partially the IRA's fault, and if Orga Sinn Fein were really interested in stopping teenage suicide in Belfast, they should put pressure on SF to encourage communities to drive out these thugs that prey on the children of these communities.

by Peter Nolan Fri May 26, 2006 14:58

Disingenuous comment above from someone who wants to start a fight within nationalist areas, based on the usual collection of off the wall assertions and half baked prejudices. Go away.

by Oh? Fri May 26, 2006 15:18

What's not true about the above?

That people have been driven to suicide after beatings and intimidation by paramilitaries?

That working class catholic areas have a shockingly high suicide rate?

That dissent republicans are responsible?

If you're going to dismiss me out of hand don't claim I'm lying, try to answer the points. OSF could have a real impact in these communities but that would force them to face some ugly truths about "community policing"

by Peter Nolan Fri May 26, 2006 15:26

Chapter and verse - where is it? Just a series of assertions and 'when have you stopped beating your wife' questions. If true (something you have asserted without any evidence whatever) , your contribution consists solely of an attempt to start a fight. Go away - come back with the evidence. Also completely off thread and mischievous.

by You asked for it Fri May 26, 2006 17:10

From the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3494511.stm

"Hundreds of mourners have attended the funeral of a north Belfast teenager who is believed to have taken his own life just hours after his best friend was buried.
The body of Bernard Cairns, 18, was found in the grounds of Holy Cross Church in Ardoyne, hours after the funeral of another teenager who is also thought to have killed himself.

In the past six weeks, 13 young men have taken their own lives in the area."

So suicide is a huge issue in stauntly republican areas. Are you willing to admit that now Peter?

"Republican paramilitaries are being linked to the increase as some of the young people took their own lives after being attacked. "

And look republican paramilitaries are linked.

Theres another article which suggests the IRA sub contracted out community policing duties in west belfast to the INLA but offers no proof, but again it's a simple question of size the INLA and the RIRA lack the size and man power of the IRA and their community policing efforts exist because the IRA tolerant it. So surely Orga Sinn Fein, if so concerned about teenage suicide in Ireland, they'd want to see something done in the heartland of staunch republicanism.

So Peter theres your actual proof, now will you quit trying to wriggle out of answering my points by uttering ad homien dismisals of what I am saying?

by C'mere and theres more Fri May 26, 2006 17:24

From Indymedia itself
http://indymedia.ie/article/63505

INLA Punishment Beatings Blamed for Rash of Suicides

by Peter Nolan Fri May 26, 2006 17:25

I'm afraid you have proved my original point.

The article you cite named one suicide as being possibly attributable to the INLA. There is the usual gratuitous unsourced throwaway comment about “the paramilitaries” on the basis of a single speculative assertion. I am no fan of the INLA or of the IRSP – and by the way your original comment did not mention this group at all, merely what you termed “dissent [sic] republicans” – your comment is typical of the lazy establishment journalism that regurgitates every policeman’s, securocrat’s and politician’s spin on life in nationalist and republican areas. It is a way of leeching off the misery of others in order to make cheap political points have more to do with an extraneous political agenda than with solving the problem addressed.

Now, go away again, and get some more persuasive evidence, or else think about your whole approach and change it. It's up to you.

by Ahem Fri May 26, 2006 17:38

For starts your claim that its just "one" is a lie as can clearly been seen by the use of the word "some"

Republican paramilitaries are being linked to the increase as [b]some[/b] of the young people took their own lives after being attacked.

in the article. But I suspect you'd rather obfuscate that engage in real debate.

So the suggestion on your part that this is just an isolated incident isn't true. If you watch the video with the article, local teenagers blame the INLA along with drink and drugs for the deaths. If you read the article I've incluided below you will see a link to an poblacht which includes the line

"Relatives of [b]some[/b] of those who have recently died in Ardoyne have lashed out at the INLA, saying their young loved ones had been repeatedly singled out for abuse by the group and had become depressed and paranoid as a result. " There was also a lively debate on sluggerotoole.com which broadly agree with the idea that republican paramilitaries drove several children to suicide.

So thats a body of proof, are you still willing to ignore it? And this is not off topic by a long shot

by Peter Nolan Fri May 26, 2006 17:44

At last, some actual discussion (the indymedia link) - which you should have read in the first place before you posted your ill-thought out comment. As you can see there is extensive discussion in nationalist areas of the problem – but none of it supports your equally badly thought out view that the IRA are ‘responsible’ for the INLA, or vice versa. Both of the articles (BBC and Indymedia) you cite date from February 2004. Now two and a half year’s later, what is the situation? You clearly have no idea as you are scrambling for any information you can lay your hands on, however historical.

If you care to delve deeper into the problems faced by nationalist areas, one of them historically is the complete disinterest in social problems or anti-social behaviour in nationalist areas by the PSNI-RUC. They have tended to treat those accused of anti-social behaviour as potential touts and have been largely indifferent to their behaviour.

So, why not try and engage with this initiative of Ogra Sinn Fein with a positive frame of mind. And deal with problems as they arise, and not on the basis of conclusions you arrived with before examining the issue in the first place.

[By the way, would you mind settling on a name of some sort, rather than bits of the latest information that whiz across your screen?]

by Naaahhhhh Fri May 26, 2006 18:36

-------------
>At last, some actual discussion (the indymedia link) - which you should have read in the first place before you posted your ill-thought out comment.
--------------

I did Peter when it was first written unfortunately the site upgrade has made the search engine perform poorly, and it took a while to dig out. I notice you're still going for the ad homiens.

------------------
>As you can see there is extensive discussion in nationalist areas of the problem – but none of it supports your equally badly thought out view that the IRA are ‘responsible’ for the INLA, or vice versa.
-------------------

Again ad homien you claim my logic is "badly thought" but don't bother to explain why. You poo poo it without explaining why. Do you think the INLA could operate "community policing" in the Ardoyne if the IRA didn't want them to?

--------------
>Both of the articles (BBC and Indymedia) you cite date from February 2004. Now two and a half year’s later, what is the situation? You clearly have no idea as you are scrambling for any information you can lay your hands on, however historical.
--------------

Nice, shift the goalposts again. A minute ago you refused to believe this was an issue at all now you're saying it's a "historical problem". It seems you'll do anything to avoid the thrust of my point and when your lies ("this never happened", then "it only happened once") are exposed you quickly scrabble to change the position. The suicide rate in West Belfast is still shockingly high

"The suicide rate in north and west Belfast is more than double the average elsewhere."
thats from last year
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0825/suicide.html

and north and west belfast had the highest suicide rate in western europe in 2005
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,,174....html

So claiming this is a "historical" problem is more ostrich like behaviour from yourself.

--------------------
>If you care to delve deeper into the problems faced by nationalist areas, one of them historically is the complete disinterest in social problems or anti-social behaviour in nationalist areas by the PSNI-RUC. They have tended to treat those accused of anti-social behaviour as potential touts and have been largely indifferent to their behaviour.
-------------------

Compared to the IRA and INLA who kneecapped them because of their behaviour? Your infantile logic that its the PSNI/RUCs complete fault because they couldn't or wouldn't do anything ignores the fact that the RUC had bigger problems to deal with for years, and couldn't and in some instances still cannot drive down some streets without being in heavily armoured cars. How exactly are they supposed to do actual community policing (compared to the euphemistic "community policing" dished out by the paramilitaries) when they cannot walk the streets?

-----------------
>So, why not try and engage with this initiative of Ogra Sinn Fein with a positive frame of mind. And deal with problems as they arise, and not on the basis of conclusions you arrived with before examining the issue in the first place.
----------------

Again a load of assumptions about where I'm coming from with no actual evidence to support your claims. You seem to want to be a have a cake and eat it kinda guy.......

------------------
>[By the way, would you mind settling on a name of some sort, rather than bits of the latest information that whiz across your screen?]
---------------

Try to keep up old bean..........

by Non republican Wed May 31, 2006 21:08

I can't see how u can argue with this campaign? im not republican but commend them on their campaign. im from these areas ure talkin bout and 2 be honest there is a lot of reasons behind suicide and paramilitaries cant be blamed for all them. i hav 2 agree with the campaign i think its fantastic well done!

by Donnchadh Thu Jun 01, 2006 02:47

Havent you heard that the Provisionals have given up all their weapons and now accept British rule in Ireland. Its a bit unfair to blame them for not stopping the INLA and RIRA who have guns and would presumably tell the provisionals what to do with themselves. Any way the best the provisionals can do now is report the matter to the PSNI.