The Afghan Hunger Strike, the Racist Counter Demonstration and the Left

by hs Mon May 22, 2006 00:29

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Banner on Henry St.

canvassing on grafton st

central bank

joe higgins putting forward a class position

by hs Mon May 22, 2006 00:32

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School students

One of the assorted drunks trying to pull down the banner

by Ciaron - Catholic Worker/Ploughshares (personal capacity) Mon May 22, 2006 01:04 At Large Down Under!

Thanx for your reflection and the photos.

The loss of monoculture is a traumatic event, just asked the West Papuans & Australian Aborigines. There's no denying it. I'm grateful that I,son of an Irish immigrant, was raised in a relatively multicultural society. After the White Australia Policy collapsed in 1972 (The Labor Party leader Calwell of the '60's coming out with the quote "Two wongs don't make a white" reflects how deeply it was entrenched), Brisbane got even more interesting multicultuarlly. But the loss of monoculture is traumatic and the surprise/trauma that stay at home Irish are having now that people want to migrate in their direction for a change is to be expected.

When we were doing the weekly soap box speaking in Temple Bar
(Is that still happening given Rossa's migration to the country?), the biggest crowds and most lively debates were around the issues of migration. Xenophobia won Australian Prime Minister Howard two elections in Australia, first when he deployed the SAS to hijack the Tampa that had picked up refugees from a sinking boat. And secondly when doctored vid footage and his claims that refugees were throwing their children overboard (later exposed as a fabrication/ but timed just before the lection and it did its job).

Divide and rule is an old trusty tactic and people tend to retreat into ethnicity when scared. Part of the reponse is to assure the locals that our movement will be there for them in solidarity when they take action on their issues. The working class soldier and the middle calass based anti-Vuetnam War movement in the U.S. was part of the dynamic exploited by the State. But hey, we all come from somewhere.

Given that this action taken by the refugees was taken with no warning, a lot of good folks did a lot of good stuff on short notice. So don't be too hard on yoursleves. It is always good to reflect after action, affirm the good stuff and self critique how things could have been done better and act again. The past week was very significant, a courageous nonviloent direct action, some great solidairty form all sorts of people from all sorts of (political) places and it made overt what is often covert in Irish society, the entrenched racism. The connection between participating in US bombing and destroying other countries and the flight of refugees you would thing would be painfuly obvious to all. But it ain't.

Solidairty is the name of the game.

by hs - . Mon May 22, 2006 01:05

when challanged about his own "celtic ayran purity" this irish rascist (with a thick english accent!) claimed he'd been living in England for 15 years. Either he's lying and is a migrant here (probably not stealing jobs or women though), or he was a migrant in engerland for 15 years where he picked up his nasty habits. Either way he's a hypocrite.

the migrant's migrant

by antifa Mon May 22, 2006 02:18

The bloke on the right was down there on Saturday afternoon, is irish, and is quite vocal against refugees, was getting involved in heated arguments with an SF member and one SWP'er who tried to have a reasoned debate with him. he was wearing a black hat, more like a baseball cap than the black wooly hat the British fascist was wearing, and also a hi-viz builders jacket. he also had his bike with him then.

more photos coming soon hopefully...

by blaise Mon May 22, 2006 03:06

for some strange - though not so strange in the political sense - reason - the ultra-lefties have painted all those who were not in favour of this Afghan hunger protest for assylum - as racist - which is a devious and clever ploy - but Dubliners are not as stupid as this forum would love to represent them as. There are very good rational points to be made for the violators of the sanctuary of St Pat's to be ejected from the cathedral - as they were finally, and thankfully, and peacefully by the Garda. MacDpwell is not the evil man he is portrayed as - in fact he is simply a strong minister who stood his ground and did not cave in to sympathy blackmail. We have immigration processes in place for these Afghans to present their cases and they should be heard in the proper forum as others have before them and will continue after them. They can prove their special cases before that tribunal. Racism is a terrible thing - but don't lump level headed people who object to your political positions into this category - by broad painting all those who are not on your wave length.

Slainte

by Badman Mon May 22, 2006 03:44

The people who carried out the counter demonstration, turned up outside a hunger strike calling for the government to intervene. They did not, in general, know the first thing about the cases of the men in the cathedral. They simply came on the basis of the men being asylum seekers / immigrants / refugees (most of them don't know the difference). They were motivated by antipathy towards immigrants, as simple as that. The signs and so on that they held up "No room at the inn" etc made no mention of the individual cases, they objected to the men as immigrants, not as individuals. In short, they were racists who seized upon the hunger strike in order to express their dislike of immigrants.

A second point is that they chose to hold their protest outside the cathedral where the men were holding a hunger strike. They taunted ambulances leaving the church with cries of "hope you die". They chanted "let them die". Racial abuse was commonly heard. Shouts about McDonalds and "pull the rope" were heard at times. One protestor raised a nazi salute. Once again, since they did not know anything about the individual cases of the men inside, they were clearly doing this on the basis of the men being immigrants. They obviously feel that taunting people being taken away in ambulances is acceptable if the people are immigrants. They certainly wouldn't behave in such a way towards a random stranger in an ambulance if that person was not an immigrant - since such behaviour is considered to be an absolutely unacceptable and sub-human way to behave towards people in our society. Indeed, anybody who taunted ambulances regularly would not last long in our society. And yet a group of "protestors" have obviously dehumanised immigrants to such an extent that they will happily taunt ambulances carrying them away.

I'm sure that some of those who were present might say that such cries and such behaviour was not indulged in by everybody. However, when you have such a small "demonstration" - no more than 20 people were present at any one time - you are obviously going to be closely associated with the behaviour of the group. Anybody who had a political point to make about immigration would have been very unlikely to choose such a venue for their protest - why turn up at a hunger strike rather than at a government building to protest about immigration or asylum policy? Anybody with a shred of human decency who did show up at such an insensitive protest would have dissociated themselves from the crowd as soon as they observed the hatred on view.

In summary. Those who attended the counter-protest have acted in an appallingly disgusting and racist manner. They should hang their heads in abject shame. This does not mean that they should all be written off, however. One can change the mind of a racist. On the other hand, there were at least 7 or 8 individuals who travelled from outside the area to the racist protest and who obviously have some sort of ideological commitment to propagating racism, most likely some variety of fascism. These people are less likely to be won over, since their racism is part of an ideological world-view of hatred and fear.

by blaise Mon May 22, 2006 05:19

let's clear this one up. There are Dubliners who were in favour of the hunger-striking Afghans and there are a great many Dubs against them attempting to blackmail the government into granting assylum for their case which apparently states that their lives would be in peril were they to be deported back to Afghanistan.

There is a separate case of racist taunting by mindless offenders outside the cathedral of St Patrick's. Those people who acted out their racist positions in public are a separate offence to the squatting Afghans and should be treated as such and should be punished for their crime. Public racist taunting I believe is and should be considered a crime..

Defenders of the Afghan protestors are using the Racists to validate their position and this is where the Poddle becomes muddle and the argument for and against deteriotes into shambles.

by David Landy Mon May 22, 2006 11:09

A great article asking the important questions. Here’s my two cents worth. I think it is important not to overemphasise the ‘organised racism’ part. As far as I could see there weren’t that many hardcore racists down there – in any case they were easily outnumbered by the hardcore anti-racists. The difference was that they got to the local community first and presented them arguments that some locals anyway found plausible and attractive.

We shouldn’t beat ourselves up for not being organised – the hungerstrike caught everyone on the hop, and as it went along we were getting more mobilised and more ideas for action together. Still, in future events – because undoubtedly and unfortunately there will be future crises – we know we have to engage with local people and other Dubliners more and quicker – by the time we started, people had already bought the government line which had been out there from day one.

I think we might as well come out and admit there was a class divide - while there were working-class people on our side, we were largely middle-class, not from the area, and unsure about how to deal with a crowd of jeering and intimidating teenagers. Still, there were people from our side who were trying to engage with them – both the local teens and the adults - and when the effort was made it did prove fruitful. I don’t know how many we persuaded that solidarity wasn’t charity, but just common sense for working-class people. I do know when the effort to engage was made - and it was hard to confront and talk to people screaming abuse – the level of hostility went way down – there were a lot willing to listen.

It’s easy to curl up in a corner and mumble about how Dubliners are a bunch of know-nothing bundle of confused hate, especially for those who experienced what was going on outside the cathedral. It’s important not to fall into that trap – we get nowhere.

David

by Joe Mon May 22, 2006 11:18

The blond haired guy in blue on the left of the picture was the character who punched one of the women anti-racist protesters on Saturday night and then ran off down the street as fast as he could. I don't think even the local kids were impressed with such heroism!

That was one of the notable things about the handful of organised racists there - they hid behind the kids and when the kids were not there kept quiet (as in that picture).

by pat c Mon May 22, 2006 11:29

I guess Dave is right, there was a class divide there and we had too few working class dubs on our side. Please! No avalanche of "but I'm a worker"! I consider myself to be working class as well but Dave is correct, our profile kinda jarred with that of the counter-protest. also, there was the culchie problem, quite a few on our side were from outside Dublin. that leads on to the danger of a Culchie Control Platform being founded.

How to deal with the couinter-demo? We could have cleared them away. Certainly we had the numbers to deal with them. But there was the danger of more of them coming back later. Especially as it would have been portrayed as outsiders attacking locals. There are some guys there who are worth watching and that will be done.

Building support within communities can be acheived but its difficult and takes appplied hardwork over a period of time. In the short term public meetings could be held in inner city areas in community halls but that means beinging local community activists on aboard. again theres no point in just parachuting in. It also means getting SF, LP, SP, Green and Independent TDs and Councillors to speak at these meetings.

It is important that we put any idea of point-scoring against "Capitalist" parties behind us. We have to be prepared to work with those GP & LP members who are prepared to oppose racism. Remember: they are elected representatives of the local people; we are not.

by Jonah Mon May 22, 2006 12:58

I think HS has a good analysis there.

The reality is that many people in working class and disadvantaged areas need a focus for their anger and discontent. Rather than putting the responsibilty at the feet of the government, they have chosen to target refugees and asylum seekers. It's a position the government helped to create. Canvassing in 2004 I got many reports from people in the Dublin Central area that when FF canvassers were confronted about housing, health or education services, they changed the topic to the Citizenship referendum and basically said, and in a couple of cases as bluntly as this, that the reason there was a problem was refugees and asylum seekers taking up services but vote Yes on this referendum and we'll get rid of them for you.

It's also worth bearing in mind that at the next general election immigration, and immigrations policy, will be a far bigger issue than it has ever been before. Many parties didn't even bother with a substantive immigration section in their manifestos. That will have changed by next time round.

In the meantime, there is a massive job of work to do with reaching out to people in working class areas and confronting racism, challenging people to put the blame on those that should be blamed.

I don't want to be negative, but I don't think public meetings, regardless of who speaks at them, will make much difference. Few people in those areas are going to attend meetings to discuss race or immigration issues unless they expect to be allowed to get stuck into them. A 'Solidarity with Afghan Hunger Strikers' public meeting in the Coombe or Neilstown could be held in a phone booth.

Generally speaking I've found the best way to confront these issues is on the doorsteps. Trail a couple of comments, see if people engage and then try and shift them round. These are angry, disenfrancised people, it's about redirecting that anger, acknowledging that the anger is absolutely justified, but the target they are directing it at is not. This requires being embedded in those communities, bringing local community leaders on board. Regardless of the reality the media representation of the demos at St Pat's Cathedral was middle class outsiders and do-gooders coming in and working class local residents playing their traditional role of racists.

Allows the media to kick local residents and the protestors simeltaneously. On the issue of the media btw, it might be no harm for people to analyse the media coverage of the last week or so. The Sunday Independent was perhaps the most appalling with Mark Dooley's 'Afghanistan is now a functioning democracy' the product of a man who is either utterly dishonest or mentally disturbed.

Anyway, how we do this work, in terms of trying to redirect the justified anger of working class and disadvantaged communities away from immigrants and towards the government is something I have not yet figured out. I am convinced no one party or organisation can do it alone. I am equally convinced that it must involve people living in those communities worst affected by government neglect as those are the ones most open to racists.

Other than that, I think a discussion of how it is done is vital.

by MichaelY - iawm - per cap Mon May 22, 2006 13:18

Well done HS, Jonah, David and Ciaron. Good discussion - good points.
A request: there is also a very interesting discussion developing on the same subject and themes in a parallel thread re: 'The End' of the Hunger Strike. Any chance we can all decide to pull the arguments together?

by Jonah Mon May 22, 2006 14:36

I had a read through the other thread as Michael suggested but think replying here is a better idea. The other thread is dealing with the aftermath of the protest whereas this seems to be a more analytical, where do we go from here type of thing.

I agree with the suggestion on the other thread that a meeting or conference pulling together the different strands of political opinion and activity on this one would be worthwhile. I hope Michael, who did a massive amount of work on this issue over the last week, won't take it personally if I suggest that someone other than the IAWM should co-ordinate or facilitate it. I accept the offer and suggestion was made in good faith and out of a desire to be helpful, but I think sometimes people in organisations can underestimate the level of distrust that can exist towards them, speaking as a Shinner here btw :)

I think the last week and the key role played by RAR in it suggests they are the people that regardless of political differences we could all trust enought to facilitate or co-ordinate such an activity. They are also the people who have been on the frontlines of this issue for a very long time and know the ins and outs of the state's immigration bureaucracy.

Broadly speaking I can see three distinct strands that need to be knitted together, and none of these are monolithic.

Firstly, we have the anti-racism campaigners. People like RAR, or those involved in the Racist Referendum campaign who have a good deal of experience in street based campaigning and solidarity work and whose primary political activity is anti-racism, much as for others their primary activity is anti-war or anti-EU.

Secondly, we have the political parties and organisations, and individuals I suppose, who would support the former, but for whom it is not, and will not, be their number one priority (I'd be an example of this too). There were Sinn Féin, Socialist, Independent, Green and Labour elected reps at the protests over the week, as well as SWP, ISN and WSM. We need to find a way to get these people to tie this kind of activity into their programmes of work.

Thirdly, there is the NGO sector, groups like the NCCRI, Immigrant Council of Ireland or various state bodies, institutions or state funded NGOs for whom radical street campaigning might be not their cup of tea, but who are reasonably politically sound on the issue and experienced in terms of policy making, contributions etc.

Within all of those broad sectors there would be internal differences. Some people, for example, would support an open door policy on immigration, something I would be opposed to. Some would want to broaden the work out to include indigenous ethnic minorities like Travellers, others would prefer to focus on immigrants. Some would favour direct action and some would be reluctant.

A meeting that brought together people from those three sectors to agree some broad, over-arching principles based on the need to combat racism and xenophobia through education, awareness building and campaigning and to support the development of interculturalism in Ireland is possible.

by MichaelY - iawm- per cap Mon May 22, 2006 14:46

There was no suggestion and not even a glimpse of a thought that it should be somebody from the IAWM facilitating. I think I stated that in one of my earlier messages. Understanding our own limitations is crucial at this stage Jonah. So no offence! Lol!!
Things have progressed a bit and I believe the Anti-War Alliance will be putting a statement later on today calling for a meeting on Wed evening in the Teachers Club. I know RAR argued yesterday that setting up a meeting should be called off until they have an opportunity to talk to the hunger strikers. That's grand as I am sure they will talk to the lads by Wed afternoon. There is a also a call from RAR for a picket outside the Court on Thursday morning.
I also heard rumours that a couple of people got tickets for Q&A tonight - with Ruairi Quinn and Kevin Myers on side by side it should be a grand gig.
If we go ahead for Wed evening then we should find an 'independent' and able [please] facilitator - with so many good people around that shouldn't be a problem.

Solidarity

by J Mon May 22, 2006 14:50

Please put a stopper in it. You are rambling and repeating yourself all of the time.

by Residents Against Racism - Residents Against Racism Mon May 22, 2006 15:11

We will be making an announcement tonight about a solidarity group meeting. We repeat our request for people to hold off on calling this meeting until we make the announcement.

We would like to thank everyone who was involved in the solidarity actions and the Afghan men have requested that we pass on their gratitude for your support.

The struggle continues and it should be obvious to all that this is just the end of the beginning.

by Seán Ryan Mon May 22, 2006 15:15

I think the real danger at this point is fragmentation. That's always a danger when new opportunities are presented.

Fragmentation can and will occur, if organisations attempt to assert ownership of issues. This can happen in the obvious ways which I don't need to go into.

The last week has shown that our diverse groups can function effectively and quickly when we choose to do so.

The most subtle and yet the most dangerous thing that can cause fragmentation is perspective. This 'baseline' or 'endgoal' that we keep focusing on. When one can see one's endgoal clearly it allows this person or group to formulate a 'straight line' formula from where they are to success. This is natural and usually the correct way to do things. However this 'streamlining' process also sets out to point out, define and count each point that composes the line. For instance anti-racists trying to end racism might see the week's actions as yet more proof that all that has happened is more proof of Irelands growing problem of racism and of the general public's apathy towards this. On the other hand, us anti-war types can frame the same story in a continuance of America's war against everyone who isn't American and our facilitation and actual participation of and in it.

So we've two completely different perspective visions of what's just happened, both are completely on the mark. But mindsets and the heart ultimately make desicions for us. That's why all this is so subtle and dangerous. Both mindsets here show a very distinct branching and seperation. There's a natural tendency in operation here. We must prevent this branching effect.

For example if both groups (as they did in this case) put aside baseline pictures and focussed primarily at the points that compose the line, we see many points of similarity on both baselines. These should be areas of convergance and co-operation, as they were in the last week. The justice department, including everything from the Gardaí to the government were the 'point of convergance' during the last week.

Ok that's my view on the last week.

I like the idea of this door to door stuff. Because that's what it's all about. We must engage, with those who need to know. We must also engage with those who share points of similarity. We should engage with members of the Wheelock family and others like them who also focus at the justice system. (won't see many of the local youths side with the Gardaí on this issue.)

Our government and in particular the justice system are a common focal point for all the disenfranchised of this racist and atrocity committing nation.

by jjcale Mon May 22, 2006 18:02

It seems the Residents Against Racism have adopted the Afghan refugees as their own? Did anyone ask the Hunger Strikers if this was a racially motivated incident or a protest against inept government policies? There is much interest in the failings of current policies and it's a bit dodgey classifying this as racist. If Irish protest against government policies it would never be called a race war, don't be presumptuous enough to call this a racist protest!

by DD - ashamedly none Mon May 22, 2006 18:20

Is your problem with the name of RAR or the classification of those counter protestors screaming racist abuse as being racist. If it is the former even RAR members will tell you that the don't like the name, however it is too late to change it now. If it is the latter there is no doubt that those screaming racist abuse were racist and it would be truely idiotic to suggest otherwise.
Perhaps people should also ask the guards if they knew the counter protesters. I did and the repsonse I got back about some of them shocked me. Some, not all, were convicted drug dealers, thieves, murderers, suspected involvement in the recent gangland murders. One of the young guards said to me that one of the men was up in the courts soon for rape. Now we should note that there was no accusations against all the counter demonstrators, we should also think carefuly before we accept the guards words as gospel truth. However some of the accusations were true as I checked it with some friends who lived locally.

by jjcale Mon May 22, 2006 19:03

Don't mind them eejits shouting obscenities! And don't let this be an issue of race, which it is not. It is an issue of Government's inability to forsee or be proactive towards migratory policies. Fair play to those that support the ideals of the protestors; but, what happens when they or someone else goes at it? It is all about the Government getting appropriate policies in place and about being able to handle the case load.

by D Mon May 22, 2006 23:52

Please folks, you need to educate yourselves between on the one hand; a group of RAR activists exploding a let them stay demo while on the other hand, provoking a counter demonstration to theirs. Is this racism? No. When people feel let down by their governments ineffective handling of their immigration policy, then they are bound to vent their frustration at this. Period.

by Badman Mon May 22, 2006 23:58

I'm not racist, but I do like chanting racist slogans.

by K - Revolt Video - Revolt Video Collective Tue May 23, 2006 01:01

Much discussion about local racists. Having documented the weeks events and have given opportunity to all present to air their views if they so wished. I can cofnirm that the vast majority of those from the locale supported the asylum seekers .Many of those from the counter demonstration considered themselves not to be racist but opposed the tactics of the hunger strikers.

by Reggie Side Tue May 23, 2006 02:11

overheard comment between two children buying junk in the spar beside st pats "this is deadly getting money for shouting at iraqis". Multiple people overheard children saying they had been paid to stay outside the cathedral.

by Caoimhe Tue May 23, 2006 12:00

I can't understand the idea of dying for motives of self-preservation. Presumably this was not a hunger strike unto death, since it would then be an absurdity. To kill oneself - horribly - to avoid possible death elsewhere seems illogical. In contrast with the Irish Republican hunger strikers, whose explicit purpose was to force a change that would benefit many others and change the terms of engagement in a long-running conflict, the Afghans seem only to have campaigned for their own particular ends. Ends that would cease on their death.

Which makes me think that the slogan "Don't let them die" is also absurd. Unless the demonstrators accepted from the outset that this was not, in fact, a hunger strike unto death. Which would make the slogan just a piece of empty posturing.

by Kelly Tue May 23, 2006 13:01

"I'm not racist, but I do like chanting racist slogans."

I was present on that day and the only thing I heard the other protestors say was 'End the Abuse of our asylum system'. Go on, call that 'racist' if you're foolish enough to believe anything so long as it paints people with a differing opinion racist

by DD Tue May 23, 2006 13:05

Kelly your comment is a complete and utter lie, or maybe your deaf. Members of the corporate media were attacked by racists other journalists were shocked at the racism on display, there was placards of let them die and their was horrendous racist chants taking place. I did not hear one chant similar to what you falsely claim. Your fooling nobody and shame on you you are an utter disgrace.

by Kelly Tue May 23, 2006 13:13

For your information, I'm not 'lying'. I was present two days ago at 12:00 midday. The counter demo was not shouting racist abuse then, as you claim. At that time, they were saying: 'End the Abuse of our asylum system'. I wasn't there for the rest of the day onwards so I couldn't comment on what was being said for the rest of the day.

by G.G Tue May 23, 2006 13:16

DD,
You have called the demonstrators 'racists'.

Now I ask for the exact quotations please.

by Badman Tue May 23, 2006 13:19

The hunger strike ended on Saturday (3 days ago). Were you standing outside St Patricks chanting on your own?

There is a large volume of audio recordings, photographs and testimony which record the clearly racist nature of the demonstration / mob. The Irish Times also reported racist chants. It's amazing how racists are so ashamed of being racist that they always try to pretend they are not racist. In this case the "I'm not racist but..." line is simply impossible to maintain. You took part in the most obvious manifestation of public racism that Dublin has ever seen. Live with it.

by d'other Tue May 23, 2006 13:21

I was there for a good portion of time and not once did I hear 'End the Abuse of our asylum system' being chanted. It hardly even makes for a good chant does it? The only thing that counter demo was chanting was "send them home" repeatedly. And is there any point going into the numerous incidents of what individuals on that counter demo said? Not to mention the kids going up to people of visible foreign extraction including some of EU based origin, threatening them to the delirious grins of their mates, the encouragement of older adults and shouting at them how they should go back home. But whats the point in arguing with a troll who insists on giving a counter demonstration that was reliant on tabloid scares as the base of its arguments and open xenophobia an articulation it didn't have?

by DD Tue May 23, 2006 13:35

GG if you think I am going to put into print what these racists were shouting then you are deeply mistaken. The comments would and should be deleted. Ask anybody who was actually down there. And Kelly these people were shouting this horrendous stuff all day saturday, and for most of the week. Irish society is very sick as commented on by the new version of "Rough guide to Ireland" who have warned people with dark skin about travelling to Ireland. Some people must have there head stuck up their backside if they think what went on by these counter demonstrators was acceptable in any society. Regardless of your opinion of the tactics of the men racism should not be tolerated. Also we should not overstate the "organistion" behind these counter demonstrators, a lot of those people were criminals plain and simple. Others were just plainly confused about the whole thing. Some of the counter protestors were only not present on Dole day, people whom McDowell and the right wing would call spongers.
The left needs to get very serious about this issue. We need to be tough on racism and tough on the causes of racism. The causes of racism are not the immigrants themselves as these people would still remain marginalised without any immigrants. Also there were a lot of locals who came down to support the Afghans as they stated they were often on the brunt of State discrimination, especially from the Gardai. There were also a lot of homeless people who came down to support the men. Resources need to be fairly and equitably distributed. We must join with other members of the working class and win justice for all. If we don't then people will always blame the easiest target be it immigrants, single mothers or other defensless people.
The events over the past week should be a wake up call to people. Either we start acting and campaign in communities or we continue to talk crap and do nothing about it. And if the latter is the case then we really will allow space for fascists to organise. Wake up people the time for action is now.

by Scáth Shéamais Tue May 23, 2006 13:58

HS: "It has definitely pointed to a situation in Ireland that there is an audience out there for racist politics, and it looks like racists are beginning to come out of the closet. That’s not to say an Irish National Party will pop up overnight, The popularity of Sinn Fein would make it difficult for that to happen."

What's that supposed to mean?

by Elisa Tue May 23, 2006 18:02

I am all for the afghan hunger strikers staying in Ireland but it really is petty insinuations and false allegattions such as in this thread that totally turns me off Irish Protestors as a meek willed lot with not a set of balls between them

Firstly) Just because someone has an english accent does not make them English or an english migrant. How quick the indymedias are to jump to conclusion that this 'fasict,hypocritical ' englishman is an immigrant himself?? Perhaps you should check your facts about him before brandishing this guy so readily as a hypocrite as it just makes you look ignorant of seeking any truth.

Secondly) Just because there was protestors in favour of the men being deported does not make them racist. Thats just an easy insult to throw in their direction.

Thirdly) Telling tales of what the horrid racist anti immigrant protestors did does not endear your plight to anyone. Baseless rumors such as this of what happened at the protest makes you seem just childish. 'overheard comment between two children buying junk in the spar beside st pats "this is deadly getting money for shouting at iraqis". Multiple people overheard children saying they had been paid to stay outside the cathedral.'
This sort of overhearing should have ended in the playground and im sure everyone who has written on this thread is over the age of six so no more 'my mate overheared....' its just ignorant.

by Eloosa Tue May 23, 2006 18:14

"Just because there was protestors in favour of the men being deported does not make them racist. Thats just an easy insult to throw in their direction"

Are you capable of reading? Do you understand english? Humans have developed the ability to read and write, so that they can communicate with each other. They write "letters" on a page, forming "words" so that they can express what they want to say.

In recent times, this has been transferred to the computer screen. Using this new-fangled technology, countless people have described in considerable detail the racist abuse shouted by counter-demonstrators outside the cathedral. Don't pretend that people are calling the protesters "racist" without any foundation. They are being called "racists" because they WERE racists.

by DD Tue May 23, 2006 18:21

Elisa as someone who was not there you should spare us this kind of nonsense. There is video evidence of the racists and what they did. As for the kids perhaps you should go down and ask the kids yourself how much they got paid. It was small money for sweets but the kids were more then delighted. Also people know who gave the kids the money in exchange for them screaming racist chants.
As for the "englishman" a journalist asked him why he was chanting racist slogans when he himself had emigrated for work. He claimed it was different when he left. The journalist explained that, according to the "englishmans" beliefs what he had done was "stealing a job" from a native englishman. The "english" man then repsonded with a racist comment about muslims. Quite frankly I am amazed at how quickly those who were involved in the racist chanting have tried to cover up what they did. A rather foolish tactic considering how many video cameras there was and also how many witnesses there were. Perhaps you should attend the indymedia screening on Thursday night in Liberty hall where a video will be shown with footage from outside the cathedral then you can see for yourself rather than post nonsense

by Starstruck Tue May 23, 2006 18:22

"Baseless rumors "
From first-hand knowledge of having been at St Patricks all week long morning til night I can tell you for FACT that all the above events occurred and that they are not baseless rumours as you so easily describe them.Had you been present I'm sure you would have a better idea of exactly what was going on down there.

"Perhaps you should check your facts about him before brandishing this guy so readily as a hypocrite"
Well Elisa again,here you err.Having had face to face arguments with this individual at various points during the week(after which I was left in no doubt,both literally and physically)about his beliefs) he is someone who has now an Irish Passport,which I must add he displayed at every available opportuinty,ahving been brought up as an Englidh citizen.
Now all that doesnt bother me in any way but it seriously underlined many of the arguments he was attempting to put across to justify his position and presence.

"Thats just an easy insult to throw in their direction"
That it may be,but the insults and abuse that was coming from these groups of individuals were so xenophobic,foul and racist that they then earned the term racist -for example-"All foreigners out" and "1-2-3-4Send them back to the war 5-6-7-8 Kick the chocolates out the gate"".There were many more which I shall not give the dignity of publishing but these chants are racist so instead of standing up for these people having not been on the scene yourself to witness their taunts and language and assuming blindly that "indymedias" are exaggerating,maybe it is YOU that should loom at the records before commenting.

There si audio files here from the scene,educate yourself.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/76205

by james otoole Tue May 23, 2006 18:35

so shouting 'if i put boot polish on me face i'd get better treatment'..is now not racist?...'so laughing whenever one of your friend shouts 'let them die' is now not racism?...so saying 'they're taking up all our hospital beds' is now not racism?...so threatening to break the nose of anyone who put up any kind of left wing argument is now not racism???...c'mon....some of these posts are bloody ridiculous!

by LK Tue May 23, 2006 18:54

I am shocked to find out that adults were paying children to harass the demonstrators and shout horrible slogans such as "let them die". Then the adults turn around and claim not to be racist. Denial seems to be endemic at the moment. As if the "I'm not racist" denial was not enough we now have the catholic church (in the person of a christian brother) trying to deny the abuse that took place in orphanages. I dread to think what effect all of this is having on the moral perception of our young people.

by hs - sp (personal capacity) Tue May 23, 2006 19:14

I mentioned the "english" protester because it was obvious he was a migrant, either from england to ireland or ireland to england (as he claimed). Either way it makes him a migrant whether irish or english is not the point The point is he is himself a migrant and therefore a hypocrite for being against other people being migrants. It also begs the question is it migration or skin colour which bothers him.? In the article I did not say everyone was rascist, I said there were some ordinary people who were angry and unfortunately directing it in the wrong direction. But as the evening war on all of these people went home and what was left was a collection of rascists (openly), children and drunks. I spoke many of the counter protesters, one processed himself not to be rascist but I challenged him that in effect he was at a rascist demo, especially as he was holding a "no room at the inn" placard. he replied it was just a bit of a joke. But I said what I will say to you. What on earth do you think people will read from that, no banners were present mentioning any of the social problems in the area, just banners saying that they wanted the refugees out and such sentiments. And as I mentioned one large banner reading "let them die".
All the people who were there were not rascists but it was a rascist demo, especially as the night wore on.

Scath

I mentioned sinn fein as it would be very difficult for anyone to form an anti establishment/populist nationalist party as one (sinn fein) already exists. Thats not saying sinn fein are rascist or anything of the sotrt, just that they would have taken much of the political space irish "nationalists" even of a right wing character would like to take. But in that i'm not comparing them to the BNP or anything. just making the point that a large nationalist party already exists, and nationalism has been an anti imperialist movement in ireland as opposed to a wannabe imperialist movement in most of europe.

by Gaz B -(A)- Tue May 23, 2006 19:52

the idea that people can be hierarchically divided based on race is archaic. Some of the older female racists had a go at people from indymedia (or people they accused of posting on indymedia to be more accurate) for posting up pictures of them and calling them racist (they of course denied they were), despite they themselves chanting, "let them die".

i asked one of the kids if they were given money for hanging around the cathedral, they confirmed it. The nasty thing about the protest was seeing people blame the hunger strikers for their socio-economic conditions. it's the government that screws people over with social housing and scandalous dole and minimum wage rates - not refugees. Seeing people exploit and divert this anger & dissatisfaction with their living conditions to support their own racist beliefs sickens me.

by Gilbert Jeannon Tue May 23, 2006 23:14

Twenty years ago it was great going down to Dublin from Belfast. It seemed here was the only city in Europe where you got no shite for your colour. In fact people seemed to want to make links between the anti-irish sentiment in Britain and that any racists in Ireland would always be reminded of the treatment Irish people recieved over there.

Lets cut to the chase, are we about an Ireland of equals? Immigration is a red herring. Like the debate on dole scroungers, or single mothers, this issue goes round and round, while the real issues of employment, housing and social co-hesion and community control are ignored.

The anti-immigration lobby is a racist lobby. If they were not then it would be English people or British passport holders, who should be the target as they are the largest immigrant group in this country. US passport holders are the most frequent visa over stayers in the EEC, should that nation's citizens not be targetted by immigration control and eyed suspiciously when they open their mouths in a bar?

No of course not, they're not on the whole Black. I challenge the anti-immigration lobby and its narrow minded representatives to give us a "colour-free and fair immigration policy", they cannot because their opinions do not see beyong colour.

Drop the ideas of multi-culturalism, we need workers action on racism and xenophobia. In the workplace and community action against racists in our communities..its not rocket science.

by blaise Wed May 24, 2006 04:36

One can be against massive immigration and not be racist. You cannot pigeon-hole all those against an enormous influx of newcomers from all races and creeds descending upon the island - as bigots - please, some decorum if you don't mind. One can also be for muticulturalism and not be for massive immigration levels. Obviously there is a certain need for immigrants, especially given the economic drive of the nation. If there are those amongst us not willing to work, then they have paved the way for more immigrants. Ireland can and does accomodate immigrants. Sure there are some who feel threatened, who feel their culture threatened, who feel other cultures are allowed to foster while theirs is told to subdue itself. Multiculturalism is a wild experiment eventually sorted out by the tribes. All cultures feel a sense of belonging to themselves - and a certain distance from other cultures. That is quite normal. Naive are those who believe the Irish are generally racist while thinking that the cultures who emigrated here are not. We are no different from them. The term racist is bandied about far too liberally, and generally out of context. Kids can be the cruellest of them all, yet I wouldn't consider them racist for some of the offending things some of them might say. They could say things but have no real intent to hurt or deprive another culture or race. White Irish fathers who wouldn't want their daughter to marry a black man could be considered racist. But perhaps the father just has a fear that the child of such a couple will have a hard time from the wedlock. There are black fathers who would have the same fears. Are they racist? Or simply fearful of the societal malaise which would accompany such a union? Nothing is black and white. I would also suggest that the immigrants from Nigeria, India, Pakistan, Romania and Poland to name a few samples are everybit as protective and tribal as we are. No different really. This is a slow merging process which at present has some growing pains - mainly because the immigration levels have risen so dramatically in recent years. I can well understand the government's position in slowing down and tightening controls on immigration. The open the floodgates theory is a foolish and ultimatimately destructive one.

by hs - sp (pc) Wed May 24, 2006 10:02

No one said eveyone against immigration is racist, what we are saying is people who are racist are using the issue. Of course their will be fears and problems, but the point is to try and get past those fears and build solidarity amongst people. Also racism can be a very useful tool. FF tds like to blame the housing problem on immigrants. Very handy for them. And when the economy makes a turndown you can be guarenteed the ruling classes will try and scapegoat someone. It used to be single mothers and people on social welfare, now its immigrants. Every time there is a lack of resources in housing, schools etc because of gov. inaction or corruption immigrants are being blamed.
And those of us who are politically active should be prepared for this and ready to intervene, its not just about attitudes, people are being physically attacked and verbally attacked and abused on a regular basis solely because of the colour of their skin. This is unacceptable and we have to stand up to it. To try and write off racism as you do is just as bad as saying everyone is racist in fact worse as it writes off people who are being attacked.

by james o'toole Wed May 24, 2006 16:53

"its possible to be against immigration policy and not be racist"...really??....ALL immigration limits are inherently racist!... by UN statistics there is roughly enough cash on this planet right now to make everyone on it the equivalent of western middle class (god forbid) 15 times over, thats a hell of a lot of money generated by a global workforce, now it seems to me that this global workforce is barred from freedom of movement that is so readily and with many smiles given to capital!...the whole notion of the nation state is defined by WHAT?
is it 'race'...well our mitachodrial dna point to us ALL being descended from the same stock so..no...em... is it geographic? so if i were born in a boat somewhere in the mid atlantic would make it difficult...how about parentage?...well what if my folks are from somewhere else but my social and cultural identity has been absorbed here..hmmm...in a world of growing pressures due to globalisation (i know that's a simplification but for f**k sake we dont have all the space in the world) seems to me people cling to national identity more.... anyway i'm sure there are better and brighter than me out there who can continue the argument that all immigration controls are racist.....
cheerio

by Gilbert Jeannon Wed May 24, 2006 20:30

Trying to understand your reasoning and a little suspicious at some of the language that you use. The immigration argument is simple for me. We are all workers.

National identity seems to matter very little when we are talking about the movement of capital, no one seems to want the send home foreign investors. In Belfast we have an Indian businessman opening up a hotel, in an area where Black people have been targeted, no racist went to burn down his hotel ( that's providing the local community with work ) but the racists in that same community are happy to pipebomb Black people's homes or verbally and physically attack us on the streets.

Racism "Blaise" is not a two way street, it is a "white person's problem". I do not have to go into a history lesson to back this up..its fact. Racism is a tool to divide workers.

Immigration is an intrinsic part of human history. How many blow ins are there in your street Blaise. Irish history has been one of emmigration, now that the economy of the 26 counties is attracting workers, why do you think racism is being used to make us distrust and hate, who benefits?

Multi-culturism is a tool of colonialisation and Empire. Irish history is about assimilation and integration. Let us build the 32 County Irish Workers' Republic with out the colonial vestiges of racism and sectarianism.

Blaise racism is a trem that is not used enough. Racist attacks happen every day in the six counties from british loyalists on irish people and now racist attacks are escalating in the 26 counties.
Who is benefitting from this upsurge in hate?

by blaise Thu May 25, 2006 05:17

gilbert and james - you are conversing with someone who loves all races and cultures genuinely. I also have stated earlier that real racism should be considered a crime. The mindless racist taunting which accompanied the Afghan hunger vigil outside St Pat's was - in my view - a crime - and should have been dealt with as such by the Gardai. Gilbert - racism is certainly not only ',white man's problem'' The Indians have their 'caste' system which is basically a racist way or columnizing human beings by pedigree. In certain African societies - lighter skinned blacks are given better jobs than their darker skinned brothers. There are tribes the world over. Our own travellers have experienced racism for eons now.

I'm certainly not going to protect racist people. I have as much disgust for them as you do, but I have my own views on immigration, the levels of immigration to a basically small island which is having a difficult time preserving its own culture while assimilating so many other cultures at the same time. As for suspicious language - have no clue what you mean by that. I have noticed that most conversations or attempts to converse over 'racism' tend to degenerate into sophomoric grandstanding. I was attempting to get beyond that. Presumptions lead nowhere. The facts will speak for themselves. Racist acts should be punishable by law. Thoughts are a different matter and usually when people get to know each other and their cultures these differences get ironed out.

by DD Thu May 25, 2006 10:15

Blaise I am always interested in this culture argument that people put forward as an anti immigration argument. I don't see it actually standing up to any scrutiny. Irish culture is in far more danger from TV and american music and shows than immigration. Even Aine Ni Chonnail rejects the culture argument. The main group of people who use that line are the Nazi's. Now I'm not suggesting that you are a nazi, but I do want you to explain your culture argument because frankly I think it's nonsense.

What is your definition of Irish culture?
Do you not recognise that TV is far more damaging to Irish culture than immigration?
Do you not think that culture adapts and changes over time?

by infohead Thu May 25, 2006 11:05

So the newspapers have been trying to say Afghanistan is safe.... maybe this report helps explain why the Afghanistans are terrified of going back

US military massacres 80 villagers in Afghanistan
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/may2006/afgh-m25.shtml

In the latest atrocity in the US occupation of Afghanistan, US warplanes massacred at least 80 villagers in the southern province of Kandahar early Monday morning. As many as 350 people have been killed this past week in Afghanistan in an explosion of violence..........

....US military A-10 “Warthog” warplanes were called in to continuously strafe the village of Azizi, beginning Sunday night and ending early Monday morning. The A-10’s 30mm rounds, fired from the gunship’s colossal cannon at a rate of 4,200 per minute, were initially designed to penetrate tank armor. As such, they pass easily through all substances used in ordinary construction, as well as human bodies. The warplanes also dropped several bombs on the village.

Azizullah, an 18-year-old boy who was cut in the face and chest during the attack, described seeing “scores” of mutilated bodies as he fled the village. “One [bomb] hit my house. I was wounded and my two brothers were killed,” he told the AFP.

And just to be sure that if anyone survived that they died of their injuries:

After the planes strafed and bombed the area, Afghan security forces sealed off the area and prevented ambulances and doctors from entering the village. Because of the massive destructive power of the munitions used in the operation, an accurate casualty figure may never be ascertained.

by Fintan Lane - Anti-War Ireland Thu May 25, 2006 11:22

The reasons for the racism expressed outside St Patrick's were varied. Some of the older people had 'ideological' views, arguing that Irish culture needs to be protected and that 'these people' are 'freeloaders' with a different outlook on life to 'us', i.e. they are the 'other'. An antipathy to Muslims was not strongly articulated, though the Taliban were mentioned as indicative of supposed Islamic intolerance. The most common argument was that, in some difficult to define sense, immigrants are depriving 'us' of something.

The kids and teenagers, more often than not, referred to 'foreigners' taking Irish jobs (the Irish Ferries case was mentioned) and being 'welfare spongers'. It seemed as if the Afghans were being blamed for social deprivation in general, as if poverty in the Liberties was caused largely by immigration. It was incredibly poorly informed stuff, laced with a lot of urban myths about immigrants arriving and immediately receiving houses and loads of money from the state.

In a way, it was as if they were a scapegoat for Irish society's ills. Same thing led to anti-Jewish feelings and the rise of Nazism in Germany. I'm not saying that will happen here (much different context), but, definitely, there is a real danger of rising racism and consequent attacks on immigrants.

One hopes that the events of the past week or so serve as a wake-up call. Not everybody has done well from the 'Celtic Tiger' and it is clear that many Irish people (those on low pay and in precarious employment or unemployed, in particular) are, understandably, looking to blame somebody or something. The Left argues that the blame should be put on the government and free market economics; right-wing racists blame immigrants. And much of the mainstream media, with its racist undertone, is feeding the latter.

by anon Fri May 26, 2006 01:18

The above only leads me to believe even more that the massive turnout for the Irish Ferries march was packed with ill informed racism. Not solidarity

by blaise Fri May 26, 2006 05:43

gilbert - check out Fintan's suspicious language '' The Left argues that the blame should be put on the government and free market economics; right-wing racists blame immigrants. And much of the mainstream media, with its racist undertone, is feeding the latter". Mr Lane gives us 'the Left' on one hand to contrast with 'right-wing racists' on the other hand. What happened to the right - the just plain right with contrary but decent theories and positions - and the middle who try to weigh up the two sides to make some kind of sense of it all? Omitted. Curiously? Are the Left beyond reproach? Just beautiful, loving people who are the good against all the evils of the world? Reminds me of the Church they so belittle when it suits them. The media's position is quite simple and has never changed. They wish to sell their product to their advertisers. If it gets people talking its doing its job. Sure they pander to their political ties. Who doesn't? We will never get beyond racism without talking truthfully about it. Forget using it as a convenient tool to win your case ie. 'the race card'. It is quite normal for a culture to mistrust another culture until it feels comfortable with it. Condeming others because you think they are racist without proof of it - leads nowhere. You should be petitioning to make the use of racists taunts - a crime - which it should be. Most reasonable people would not oppose that and that could be a start to setting boundaries which civilized human beings must not cross.

by DD Fri May 26, 2006 11:13

Blaise it is good manners to answer a question that has been put to you. Instead you merely post a rant. Could you please answer the question that I put to you about your culture argument rather than ignoring it

by rob Fri May 26, 2006 14:08

DD You ask

What is your definition of Irish culture?
Do you not recognise that TV is far more damaging to Irish culture than immigration?
Do you not think that culture adapts and changes over time?

You seem to want it everyway

Ok what is your definition of Irish culture (that seems to be in mortal danger from will and grace or pop idol) ? or culture in general?

If culture changes over time (as I think you are suggeting from your question) then arnt you leaving yourself open to the very thing that you seem to be against - that immigration does have an effect on the 'culture' of the host country.

One more thing, you use the words 'nazis' , do you mean actual nationalist socialists? or is it just a fit all insult for those you disagree with? perhaps a definition of 'nazi' might be forthcoming from you?

For the record, I am not against immigration, but I take the view that there has to be some sort of basic control, and that any immigrants should be made feel welcome and intergrated into society.

by Jimmy Fri May 26, 2006 14:27

At last nights "Where next for Republicans?" meeting in the ATGWU a vocal racist tried to argue that Ireland should have its borders closed to non-Irish, his remarks led to loud shouts of "get out you bollox" and "no platform for racists", he was ejected from the meeting by people from the floor and many supported this action due to his continued heckling.

There were also some people in attendance who were outside St. Patricks cathedral last week during the Afghani hunger strike protesting against the men and who felt strongly that they and the rest of the "immigrants" were the cause of inner city community problems such as poor housing and crime. Some of these "racists" wore metal easter lilly badges last week and dismissed arguments that the 1916 men, especially Connolly, would have supported the Afghan men and also refuted the arguments that the 1916 men and women were fighting for international justice and equality.

by pat c Fri May 26, 2006 14:33

"There were also some people in attendance who were outside St. Patricks cathedral last week during the Afghani hunger strike protesting against the men and who felt strongly that they and the rest of the "immigrants" were the cause of inner city community problems such as poor housing and crime. Some of these "racists" wore metal easter lilly badges last week and dismissed arguments that the 1916 men, "

I certainly didnt see those characters at the meeting. I clashed with the racist (who is also in Youth Defence, goes by the name Brendan)who was ejected and if I had seen the others I certainly would have had words with them

Perhaps you are mistaken about the St Pats throwbacks, I know what they look like, I was collecting money on the way out and reckon I would have recognised them if they were there.

by DD Fri May 26, 2006 15:28

Its a very Irish thing to answer a question with a question. It is also an amusing trait of some people here to not properly read posts and repsond attacking someone on the basis of poor reading of the post.

My point is that culture is in far more threat by tv than by immigration and you have not responded in anyway to that point. It is a point that is undeniable. Most young people far preferer american musicians than any trad sessions or other Irish music. This has nothing to do with immigration and is all to do with globalisation and telecommunications. Our culture has changed dramatically and this is not neccessarily a bad thing. Having grown up before immigration I can tell you that I never learned Irish dancing nor am I fluent in the Irish language nor have I read Peig or whatever that Irish book is. Also if you recall your history the Anglo Irish greatly added to our culture. For anyone to expect our culture to stay the same would be deeply mistaken and this has nothing to do with immigration. My point about Nazi's was that that is what they use as an argument and I wanted Blaise to explain his position on it. I did not call him a nazi as I pointed out in my post, however you deemed fit to ignore this, I will presume you overlooked this rather than deliberately ignored it. As for a definition of culture, people will have vey different interpretations. One would be that it is the totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought and that these patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population.

Also my questions were asked for the purpose of discussion not villification.

by rob Fri May 26, 2006 16:16

Well DD you seem to be guilty of the exact thing you accuse me of (not reading posts)

"Its a very Irish thing to answer a question with a question"

First of all you never asked me anything, mine was a stand alone question,

"culture is in far more threat by tv than by immigration....... It is a point that is undeniable"

because you say so??

"My point about Nazi's was that that is what they use as an argument"

Again I ask, what nazis?? what do you mean by 'nazi'?

I agree that culture is not static, and that any changes or influences on it are not good nor bad per se, but Immigration does have an affect on it, your own example of our 'anglo' influences is an example.

Many young people do enjoy trad music, Irish dancing has never been more popular, american tv or music is not a threat to anyone, (american music itself has its roots in irish music) some of it is good and some of it is crap, just like irish music or Irish tv (although in fairness the vast majority of homegrown TV is crap)

I think we are getting off the point here, Immigration (in my humble opinion) does have an affect on our culture - whether you see this as a positve , a negative or have no opinion is up to you, it does not make you a sucker 'radical' nor a 'racist' nazi do think either way.

did not mean to villify you, to be honest I thought you sounded rather pompous in your posts, although I am sure you are not in real life, so no offence intented.

by darren Fri May 26, 2006 16:43

Large number of working classes (and underclass) people have always been prejudiced against immigrants, and resented middle class students. That may not be a right or a good thing but its not a new development and it doesn't make them any different from their peers in other parts of the developed world.

Back in the late 60's and early 70's constructions workers in American cities took pleasure in beating up student demonstrators. Today many of them protest against opening up the US to immigration.

by DD Fri May 26, 2006 16:55

I know you didn't ask the question, however instead of an aswer to my questions I was repsonded to with questions. That was the point of that comment. (I was attempting to be funny but failed again!)

The point about TV damaging culture far more is undeniable, the proof is in the fact that far more people would partake in "alien" culture than Irish culture. I don't view this as a negative as people will decided and practise whatever culture they deeem fit. When radio was the main medium we had an anti jazz league set up with the support of Eamon DeValera who were protesting Jazz's influence on "destroying Irish culture". And I don't really see the damage that jazz did to our culture, but these people did view it as a threat over 50 years ago

The Irish Nazi's I am refering to are those active on various internet sites which wont be advertised here. The term Nazi I use to include national socialists, white nationalists, third positionists, and the national anarchists (there are a few). If you are looking for a debate on these ideologies we should start another thread rather than derail this one.

The point I was trying to make about the anglo Irish is that today we call them part of Irish culture. Irish culture will chage over time and this is a positive thing. Also I am not saying that TV is a threat or we should campaign to ban TV's what I am trying to say is that immigration is far less a threat to our culture than people claim.

Also I wasn't suggesting you were attempting to vilify me, I had the feeling that you thought I was attempting to vilify blaise which isn't the case. I wanted him to answer those questions so that I can understand what his arguments were. And as for being pompous I am sorry I came across that way, it probably has more to do with the UCD students who live above me who are partying now that they've finished their exams and playing loud hip hop music till all hours in the morning. I wish I was a student!

by orla Fri May 26, 2006 17:11

Its laughable to blame McDowell because some dodgy locals showed up to cause trouble, and show their lack of solidarity.

I presume it McDowells fault that they still refuse to see the light and vote Socialist Worker.

by blaise Sat May 27, 2006 05:03

Gilbert, been busy, but you wanted to know about Irish culture - read Joyce, O'Casey, inquire of Kavanagh on Baggot Street, any of the mental ruminations and conversations in Ullyses, the Moore Street calls of Mae the fish lady, the smell of porter from the barrels, christenings, communions, pillars, myths, cod on a bun, I could go on, go to Howth for glimpse of buttock and environ.

As a former student of Marshall McLuhan I am well aware of the effect of television on any culture. Never should have been allowed into the pub in the first place. Destroys conversation, sanctity and serenity. Culture adapts and changes over time - well that's a defo. Your nazi business - your talking to an Irishman who's married to an Armenian. Our cultures have had their share of atrocities and persecution from the hands of the British and the Turks, so cool that Nazi talk.

Finally, gilbert, you are pretty clever at avoiding answering all the queries posted on this site contrary to the Afghan position at St Pats and immigration controls in general. Afterall we are not talking about stopping immigration, here, merely controlling it. Or should we just open the flood gates and let them all in?

by Gilbert Jeannon Sat May 27, 2006 08:36

RE: BLAISE

Thank you for showing me one small facet of your irish culture, very enlightening.

My personal experience of culture on this island has been a political culture of opposition to colonialism, sectarianism and racism. I am also lucky to have met and worked with strong personalities, proud of their irish identity, comfortable in their culture and secure in their politics...stronger than some people in ireland, because their political and cultural identity once, would of got them, targetted and possibly executed by british unionist terror gangs. However despite this atmosphere of censorship and repression which exisited in the six counties, not that long ago, these working class people still held on to their strong belief in their irish culture and their community, but did not fall into the colonialist trap of sectarianism or racism.

I do believe in the free migration of labour. Workers have the right to move and live any where that they are needed. They have the right once they pay their first taxes to equal access to services, housing and to be treated equally before the law. By changing economic power relationships we can achieve a fairer society, freedom of labour and workers' control of the economy is the start of that process.

The hypocrisy of the anti-immigration lobby is that they target the workers and not the "captains of industry and business" whose profit motives need low pay and poor conditions. The anti-immigration lobby for me is a tool of big business and exploitation, dividing us as workers on the non-sensical lines of race and sex.

by Ned Wed May 31, 2006 16:49

There are some interesting things to view on the "RAR protest 2pm today at St Pat's- Counter protest planned?" forum on politics.ie. "Catalpa" is the creator of this thread and admits to being one of the "racists" who was present outside the cathedral. he states "Boy that was Fun!". "Gurrier" seems to think he was the man who did the nazi salute.

Gurrier writes:
"I further refer you to the considerable amount of audio and video footage available at indymedia which includes such pleasent cries as "get the chocos out", "I hope you fcuking die" (at ambulance) "N***er", a large banner marked "let them die" and placards calling "get out". Indymedia also includes recordings of threats to "stab people". I further have talked to 3 people who claim that death threats were made against them, two of them were women and one of these women was assaulted as was witnessed by at least a dozen people. The gardai have identified several of those who were present as heroin dealers and suspects in gangland shootings. In short it was about the nastiest little semi-organised mob of vile racists that I have ever encountered."

by John Franklin Wed May 31, 2006 20:06

>>>>>The hypocrisy of the anti-immigration lobby is that they target the workers and not the "captains of industry and business" whose profit motives need low pay and poor conditions. The anti-immigration lobby for me is a tool of big business and exploitation, dividing us as workers on the non-sensical lines of race and sex.

That's either a gross misunderstanding or a deliberate lie designed to smear critics of immigration. Listen to what you're saying - it makes no sense. If the anti-immigration lobby were a tool of big business, why would they be trying to interrupt the chain of misery in which Irish workers are shafted in order to recruit immigrants who, consequently, are also exploited?

by immortal terrier Thu Jun 01, 2006 13:31

The point is that by targetting fellow workers, instead of the real culprits of exploitation, you are playing into the hands of big business.