Dutch celebrity Islamophobe exposed

by hedgehog Thu Jul 06, 2006 18:20

Well hirsi told a few lies but she also highlighted a few home truths about islam and sharia law. her death threat was PINNED TO THE BODY of a brutally murdered theo van gough. In light of that, I doubt a few bitchy articles in newspapers or on internet sites will bother her much.

hirsi is a somewhat flawed character . I certainly dont think much of her choice of working with a neo con think tank but I found her writing on the subject of the oppression of women under islam articulate and intelligent. just because the messenger is flawed doesn't mean her message is invalid. And I must admire her courage to hold such opinions in public at great risk to her life. How many people do you know who would stand up for their convictions when the stakes are that high?

If religons just serve to encourage the oppression and mistreatment of the weak then what are they worth? We should learn to be decent to each other for its own sake in this world rather than deferring responsibility for our actions to dangerous fairy stories like christianity and islam. We need people like hirsi who have the courage to stand up to the bullying of institutionalised religon. Also we should not let the oppressive nature of political correctness stop us having this discussion. we spent long enough getting out from under the yoke of religous persecution in europe. lets not forget and lets not make the same mistakes again.

by Theo Van Tuesday Thu Jun 29, 2006 13:13

Rita Verdonk, the Dutch Minister of Immigration, is under pressure today. One of opposition coalition parties of the 2nd Kamer has put in a motion of distrust. Although she has support of the majority in Hollands second house she may have to leave or the whole cabinet may fall.

Ms Verdonk is the minister who exspoes Ayaan Hirsi Ali and removed her Dutch passport. Later she handed it back on condition that Hirsi Ali signed a statement to blame for this national scandal from her office.

In a nation where anti-immigration feeling's are running high Ms Verdonk has been exposed as a right wing racist unfit for public office.

by pat c Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:20

Hey chris

No need to say sorry, I was just clarifying my own position. I think that it is important that we dont allow ourselves to be bullied by bigots and in the name of Multiculturalism end up opposing rights for women and LGBTs.

Just remember: women who have sex outside of marriage in Iran and sexually active gays are hanged or stoned to death. Its Islam thats doing that. Not Dutch female politicians from Somalia or Kenya.

You might look at this link and consider supporting the campaign
http://www.thirdcamp.com

regards

pat

by Chris Murray - The Unmanageables Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:12

I have already mailed you on the issue. and owned to the not reading of the thread
(completely) crime.

I shld clarify: I objected to something I read re' Bomb them into equality'.

I object to that remark and whomever made it.

Regarding tolerance; The point I made in my mail and I make here again
is that the woman was flawed , but I dont have, to rephrase,
I do not take the right to condemn her. The accusation was of her
collusiveness. recognition of that can be wounding as we are
as gulity by colluding in a society that takes allows severe poverty,
rendition flights, capitalist progress through flawed legislation to attack and
isolate communities.

I apologise for any offence and thank you for the links.

I have written about the issue in legislation which disturb me
as an individual , so if the last remark seemed obscure, that demands an apology too-

(SIB, Criminal law(sexual offences)2006, Housing Bill (misc provisions) 2002.

by pat c Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:15

Tony

This is a story about Israel kidnapping 2 brothers. You might want to comment on it.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/76854

There are also anti war stories with HMS Ocean and Ploughshares in the titles. Your time would be well spent contributing there as well.

by pat c Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:10

I'm not prepared to waste my time further here. You are repeating yourself.

I am amazed that you have time to attack Anti Imperialist Socialists who differ with you on minor details but you have no time to attack the Pro Bush/Blairites and Pro Zionists on other threads. Your time would be better spent engaging with those.

I will not respond to any further comments by you regarding my defence of womens rights.

by Tony Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:00

Pat C your comments would be more credible if they were true - you say:
""Progressives " attacking someone who fled from a war torn "country" which was ruled by warlords and medieval mullahs"
But the fact is she did not flee from Somalia, she lived in Kenya for several years before moving to Europe.
Would you have such compassion for a racist like Thatcher because she is a woman? Of course not, so why privilege Hirsi?
Incidentally, for those who don't know, female genital mutilation is NOT a specifically Muslim practise. It is common in much of Africa, where it is practised by Christians, Animists, Muslims and many others.
It is widely condemned by Muslim leaders, as it should be.

by pat c Wed Jun 28, 2006 15:03

Many asylum seekers do not put down what is 100% the truth on their forms. Should I attack them for that? Should I only support those who fill forms properly. It is obscene that this woman is being hounded by supposed socialists because she "lied" on a form.

She stood up for womens rights by opposing the hijab, stoning and FGM.

by Mr. T. Wed Jun 28, 2006 14:48

Islamism is simply a religious flavour of fascism. It must be fought against with as much vigour and commitment as was needed to crush the 3rd Reich 60 years ago. Islamism is not a race nor is it strictly speaking a religion - it's a form of religious fundamentalist totalitarianism. No pasaran!

So called socialists and other self-described progressives who support or collude with islamists for whatever reason are as much of an enemy of freedom and human rights as the brownshirts, nazi appeasers, colaborators and french vishy during the second great war.

Get yerself some cop-on, Chris. Anyone half as outspoken as yourself would be stoned to death in a matter of hours in a country governed by sharia law. But don't take my word for it - just take one those fancy dress demo's of yours over to Saudi or Iran and find out for yourself.

by Tony Wed Jun 28, 2006 14:38

What more need I say? Why, Pat C. do you continue to behave as though it was Somalia this opportunist fled? Say it loud, she "fled" from Kenya, after living there for many years.
How many Muslim women have suffered because of her collusion with the racist right?
She is a vile manipulator of Islamophobia, to the detriment of other women.

by pat c Wed Jun 28, 2006 14:01

chris

whatever are you on about? i support the rights of women in islamic countries, that does not make me a racist or an islamophobe.

chris, i would ask you to check out the opinions of the Iranian and Iraqi Socialist Feminists who are standing up against Islamist oppression of women.

chris, in ireland you oppose the catholic churchs opression of women. does that make you racist and a catholicphobe?

heres some links to Iraqi and Iranian Socialist Feminists Groups. Support them in their fight against Islam.

http://www.maryamnamazie.com/

http://www.equalityiniraq.com/english.htm

http://maryamnamazie.blogspot.com/

http://www.socialismnow.org/index1.html

http://www.wpiran.org/English/english.htm

by wtf Wed Jun 28, 2006 13:33

mr chris,

who are you directing this to?
which comment?

"rapist mentality"?
what are talking about?

unmanageable? more like unintelligible!

by chris murray - the unmanageables Wed Jun 28, 2006 13:16

it is not simply a question of educating yourself about issues facing women
such as female circumcision, trafficking for sex, and "saying bomb them
to equality" show a complete lack of education, knowledge and empathy
indicative of people who are blinded by predijuice.
If there is a socialist future in Ireland , headed by louts and illiterates
then Ireland has a problem, with the issue of equality, with hate -crime
and with rapist mentality that is unbearable to see.

No borders/ socialist equality has moved on from the outdated texts that you get
your jollies on. am presuming that middle-class radicals just out of their
nappies were schooled by wage slaves. This is not diversity - it is
desperate clinging to outdated structures and schemas that expose
blind hatred, ignorance and worse the abuse of educational rights.

It is disheartening to see this abusiveness.

by no borders, please Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:01

Dutch ex-MP retains citizenship
Somali-born former Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali is to be allowed to keep her Dutch citizenship despite lying in her asylum application in 1992.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5120846.stm

Sadly, now she is off to Washington to be used by the next set of respectable racists...

'Ms Hirsi Ali has been offered a job at the Washington-based think tank The American Enterprise Institute to start in September.'

by Freeman Wed May 24, 2006 13:44

It is disgraceful to see condemnation of this woman for merely telling the truth (yes, despite the false information on her asylum application) about the position of women in Islamic socities. In Somalia for instance virtually all young girls are genitally mutilated (so-called female circumcision) before puberty, This is carried out usually by the elderly women with a rusty blade and no anaesthetic! They are their fathers's property before marriage and become their husband's on the day of the wedding. A man may take up four wives and divorce them whenever he pleases. Honour killing and sexual abuse of minors are also widespread (many girls are married off to older men at 12 or 13 years of age). Should we respect these wonderful "cultural traditions" or should we defend the right of Ms. Hirsi Ali or Theo van Gogh to speak out on these abuses? I expect the usual nonsense in reply from the kind of lefty idiots who are members of the SWP.

by Spinning Quickly Thu May 18, 2006 20:16

This is a tricky subject for me - partly because I'm not sure of the agendas of those involved.

I feel like I'm treading nervously along a political fault-line: on the one hand is the possibility of her being a feminist who genuinely campaigns for womens' rights - the other is that she is closer to a neocon.

I've noticed that rhetoric traditionally associated with left or liberal causes (e.g. free speech) has been hijacked by conservatives lately (e.g. John Waters in his columns on the Muhammed cartoons.)

On the one hand I genuinely worry about womens' rights in the Middle East, but I also worry about the controversy regarding Ayaan Hirsi Ali hurting ethnic minorities.

Looking at the Wikipedia entry for the VVD, which she stood for, I see that it's comparable to the British Conservatives and wishes to have social security available only to Dutch nationals.

by pat c Thu May 18, 2006 18:37

That neither Somalia or Afghanistans are safe places and that no one should be deported to either country?

Try and get down to St Pats tonight, our next struggle could be over Somalii asylum seekers.

by pat c Thu May 18, 2006 18:31

"enough of this please will somebody think of the women, bomb them to equality!"

Whereas the "left "are happy to let the Mullahs stone women to death.

What is wrong with supporting womens rights?

by anon Thu May 18, 2006 18:29

Who wants to put neo-con rights above womens rights?, that she and her co-horts wanted.

enough of this please will somebody think of the women, bomb them to equality!

by pat c Thu May 18, 2006 18:21

Some people may be having fun putting the boot into this uppity woman who chose to become a conservative in a country which gave her citizenship and human rights. But stop a minute, the stories you are spreading about her are the same tales that the right spread about asylum seekers: they lie, they come from countries which are safe, women are not at risk of FGM, women are not at risk of being stoned to death.

At the moment the right are telling us what a wonderful place Afghanistan is. Tomorrow it could be a group of refugees from Somalia who are at risk of deportation. By pretending that Hirsi was lieing about Somalia you are making things easier for the right. You will have todays comments thrown back in your face.

by deedee Thu May 18, 2006 18:14

My goodness, the description of her living in a nice area surely means that no women are ever oppressed once they reach a certain threshold of monetary value! This is where the left falls down again and again, with their own racism, i.e., everything '3rd world' and not white = good and everything '1st world' is bad (no matter what colour).

Hirshi Ali's dodgy asylum application is (years) old news. I notice no one has mentioned that Hirshi Ali's neighbours recently (end of April) won an appeal where a court said that her presence endangered them:

Threatened MP ordered out of secure home

AMSTERDAM — Liberal Party MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been ordered to vacate the high-security home she is renting in The Hague within four months.

An appeal court sided with her neighbours who complained her presence put their own safety at risk and caused disruption to their lives. Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner broke the news of the court decision at an EU meeting in Luxembourg on Thursday.

Somali-born Hirsi Ali is known as a critic of aspects of Islam and she went into hiding in November 2004 when filmmaker Theo van Gogh was murdered. They had finished work shortly before his murder on Submission, a short film about the ill-treatment of women under Islam.

Hirsi Ali and fellow MP Geert Wilders spent several months in hiding in secret locations due to death threats made against them because of their stance on Islam. "I think this is dreadful, horrible to have to move. I am happy living here and I feel safe," Hirsi Ali said in response to the judgement.

The neighbours lost their case initially but they won on Thursday when an appeal court accepted Hirsi Ali's presence meant they no longer felt safe in their own apartments or in the communal areas of the complex. The court ruled that is contravened Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights which guarantees respect for a person's private and family life.

The Dutch State had contravened these rights by moving to the apartment complex without seeking their consent and without taking measures to diminish the neighbours' valid fears, the court said.

Justice Minister Donner said he is considering appealing the decision to the Supreme Court "otherwise it will create difficulties for the protection of various people".

The neighbours said in a statement that their court action had not been directed against Hirsi Ali personally, but against the State for exposing them to danger.

I don't suppose this being the reason Hirshi Ali has to move has anything to do with the smears about her? It wouldn't be the can of worms this court case opens up, would it? Sure, a documentary about her is why she is fleeing, yeah, right. Nothing like making hay while the sun shines, eh? Attack Hirshi Ali and maybe no one will notice the case and it implications.

by pat c Thu May 18, 2006 17:23

More Amnesty lies?

Somalia: Child publicly executes father's killer on orders of summary court

Amnesty International today condemned the public execution of Omar Hussein in Mogadishu on 2 May. He was tied to a stake, hooded and stabbed to death by the 16-year-old son of the man whom he admitted stabbing to death in February, an elderly Qur'anic school teacher. Omar Hussein had been sentenced to death hours earlier by an Islamic (Shari'a) court. Shari'a courts in Somalia do not allow the right to legal representation or appeal.

by pat c Thu May 18, 2006 17:18

"Progressives " attacking someone who fled from a war torn "country" which was ruled by warlords and medieval mullahs. A new departure for the "left" from now on they wont support any asylum seeker or refugee who lies on an offical form.

The only real lies being told here are by those who deny the reality that Islamists treat women like animals.

by michael winter - Press Thu May 18, 2006 17:13 nmac at hotmail dot com

For those of you who doubt the conniving that Hirsi Magan got up to in Holland -
Just look at the Zembla broadcast yourselves. Look at the good schools, the paving on the streets, the cars the semi-detached houses that she "fled". The images from her family's hood look a lot more cosy that many parts of the Irish capital. In the photos from her wedding, she appears visibly jubilant.

www.uitzendinggemist.nl

The witnesses to her fable about the arranged marriage are both her aunts in Holland and her [middle-class] family in Kenya.

Not only this, but she duped her husband to be [nothing arranged about it] into getting her an airplane ticket to Canada - via Germany.

Despite claiming political asylum [she said she was fleeing a war] ...Hirsi Magan was never actually in Somalia when war broke out there....she -- and her middle-class family -- had already travelled to Saudi Arabia and from there to Kenya. she was 5 when she departed Somalia.

She lied over and over again on television about this.

If she was indeed fearful of reprisals from her family because of the arranged marriage...why then did she call her cousin from Amsterdam Central Station minutes after arriving? Why did she appear on two television shows that same year ...if indeed she feared some kind of reprisal?

For me, it's not the terrible way in which she defames Islam, but her repeated claims in the 90s and early naughties that she 'knows because' she was a direct product of this "repressive" culture.

Hirsi Magan has a political agenda, and that was never intended to happen in Holland [she originally wanted to try her luck in Britain]. That this agenda is elsewhere is visible from the discrepancies in the press releases posted on the VVD website from Tuesday last....one in Dutch for the 'home' press.....and under the LINK entitled "Click here for English version" - one finds a totally different speech...interesting

As she said on 60 Minutes in the USofA:

Its the 'American Dream'
.....that she is after.

by Pat c Thu May 18, 2006 17:09

This is from the Amnest International Somalia report for 2005 (Jan -Dec 2004). Perhaps Amnesty are Islamophobes and telling lies as well?

Women’s rights

The allocation of seats in the transitional parliament failed to meet the Charter’s quota of 12 per cent women. Women had little access to public decision-making and justice in Somaliland and Puntland.

Women’s organizations in all areas campaigned against violence against women, including female genital mutilation, which continued to be widespread. Women human rights defenders also campaigned against domestic violence and rape of internally displaced women.

Official courts, including Islamic courts and informal clan “courts”, continued to impose the death penalty and executions were carried out in several areas. Compensation (diya) was paid in some murder cases as an alternative to execution.

In December, Zamzam Ahmed Dualeh, aged 16, was convicted of espionage and imprisoned for five years after a grossly unfair trial where her rights as a child were given no recognition. The judge summarily dismissed her allegations of rape and torture by police officers. He sentenced her four defence lawyers to three years’ imprisonment for contempt of court, but they were released on appeal after payment of a fine.

Human rights defenders

Despite the risks, human rights defenders in Somalia and Somaliland campaigned for respect for human rights and reported on violence against women and minorities, faction killings, arbitrary arrests, kidnappings and political trials.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/som-summary-eng

by pat c Thu May 18, 2006 16:52

point to the lies please. apart from the "lies" on her citizenship application. who on the left will fail to support a refugee who has lied on an an application form?

Hirsi told the truth about how women are treated under sharia law. The real Neo-Cons are those who refuse to support Women against the Mullahs.

by anon Thu May 18, 2006 16:49

This women was knowingly and calculatingly whipping up hate based on multiple lies. thats what she was doing

by pat c Thu May 18, 2006 16:37

An immigrant woman "lies" to get citizenship. Is that a crime PH? Or is it only a crime to you because this woman dared to stand up to the Mullahs and say that women were entitled to human rights? The right not to be stoned to death; the right not to undergo FGM; the right to choose your own partner; the right to dress as you want.

If standing up for those rights makes Hirsi Ali an Islamophobe then I am proud to join with her in being an Islamophobe. Her "neo-con" politics are irrelevant. I never saw the left checking anyones politics in Ireland during campaigns in support of the right to choose or the right to divorce. The left were happy to work with members of FG, FF, and even the PDs.

PH, there are plenty of Wealthy White Western Male Neo-Cons you could go after. Why pick on a Somali woman exile?

by Paul Moloney - Somewhere in the Twentieth Century Thu May 18, 2006 15:47 paul_moloney at hotmail dot com

On a day when a group of Islamic immigrants are on hunger strike to stay in Ireland, such a gleeful reaction to Ali's troubles, whatever your opinion of her politics, is shameful. And the "lies" you say she told were about her _name_, something she has admitted to at least four years ago. As for her arranged marriage being a lie, the source of this information was her family itself. Which is a bit like taking the word of a husband over a battered wife, wouldn't you think?

P.