US Screw-Ups and Iraq

by The Fonse Wed Mar 29, 2006 15:14

Do you think that the car bombings and terrorism and Civil War would stop as soon as US troops withdrew?
I believe they would intensify and spread to Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, Turkey and Iran as Islamic fundementalists attacked the regimes in the Middle East who are keeping the lid on these wackos. Without American troops in Iraq and a US military presence in the Middle East in a few years Ossama Bin Laden would be the Sultan of an Islamic Empire - he would be in control of most of the earth's oil resources with which he could blackmail to Europe to allow him to develope nuclear weapons technology and if they didnt play ball he could arm a radicalised Muslim population which would overthrow Western governments weakened by economic depression due to the resulting high fuel demanded by the Caliphate.
America would no longer be safe as terrorists overjoyed by their victories in the Middle East would planned full scale terrorist attacks on US soil to dwarf 9/11.
America would of course be forced to go to war again -even the most anti-Bush democrat would have seen the light- but this new war would make World War 2 look like a pillow fight costing countless millions of lives and destroy most of the globe.
The removal of Saddam was a good idea - Iraq has a consitution and democratically elected politicians.
As Iraqi battalions begin to take on more and more duties, American forces can gradually be reduced and eventually a mere "fire brigade" force will remain to keep order as Iraqis themselves defeat the terrorists and armed guerilla groups. A free and democratic Iraq will inspire the populations of the neighbouring dictatorships in the region to demand their democratic rights from their rulers.

by Nodin Wed Mar 29, 2006 21:41

This idea seems to miss the fact that the US presences creates the problem. Likewise US support of Egypt and Jordans governments and its decades long support of Israels illegal occupation of the West Bank and Arab east Jerusalem. Your idea of some caliphate led by a triumphant Osama is the kind of sad gibberish that they spout on talk radio in the states, and has no basis in reality.

by Shannon Wed Mar 29, 2006 22:52

Thanks Re, you took the words right out of my mouth. Apperently "The Fonse" wants to ignore all the problems we've created by trying to police the world, both there, and in our own country with our national debt.

Maybe getting rid of Saddam helped the people some, but it has seriously endengered everyone living there. Now we have different groups fighting for power, not at all conserned who dies in the process. We need to get out of there NOW. There is no reason for our men and women to be there, in the middle of a civil war. We are simply one more group with guns and killing power making a mess of a very bad situation.

by The Fonse Thu Mar 30, 2006 13:43

The Middle East was a cess pool before America started interfering.
But we interfered largely for the better - American companies discovered the oil wells and it was we who gave the Arabs the technology and the education to establish their own oil industry - and it is Americans who buy the oil - without Western technology and oil hungry capitalism the Arab world would still be riding about on camels - many of the Arab countries have an enormous restless urban youthful population as a direct result of the economic boom - they may be poor but as not as poor as their ancestors who lived a biblical desert existence or scraped as peasant countryside farmers who breed them in the first place - it was easy for the autocratic rulers to rule the population in the past but Arab populations desire the prosperity that we enjoy - they are denied education by their governments who build palaces and drive Mercedes Benz while they fantasise about nuclear tipped rockets and ranks of tanks charging into Tel Aviv.
America made the mistake of propping up dictators like Saddam and other thugs to ensure our oil supply and crush their populations stoked up by Islamic fundementalism.
Islamic fundementalism is nihilistic philosophy which grew out of frustration - and it works in Mubarak The Saudi Sheiks and Musharrafs favour - they can blame America and Israel for their own misrule and at the same recieve American help to stop militant Islam from boiling over - all opponents can then be labelled terrorists - including democratic opponents who want to change things for the better.

America needs to:
1. Give up the addiction to Arab oil by finding alternative fuels - saving the global environment too.
2. Stop supporting autocratic dictators or better still remove them by armed force.
3. Crush Islamic fundementalism.
4. Fund democratic parties and movements who want to redistribute wealth, educate their people and who want to rule their countries autonomously.
5. Then get out of the Middle East and let the Arab nations form a political and economic unity like the EU or some other entity by their own choice- with freedom and democracy established the problems of the middle east will continue into the next century but they can be resolved not fossilised as they have been for millenia.

Prosperity comes with freedom - the middle east will always have extremism and terrorism and war as long as autocratic governments remain.

Europe in the 20th century was the mirror image of the Middle East - religious, nationalist and ideological extremism, ethnic hatred and poverty. Now Europe is at peace. Problems remain but now they can be solved by negotiation between democratic governments not by war between monarchs and tyrants.

by Air Filth Waterrain Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:36

To the Fonse

First of all America is a continent, I take it you mean U.S. rather than Mexico who should Crush Islamic fundamentalism. Many Arabs/ Persians have had their borders draw by the old empires of France, Italy, Britain drawing a line across a map with no regard to the different cultures and customs, hence civil war in these recently newly formed countries.

“Fund democratic parties and movements who want to redistribute wealth, educate their people and who want to rule their countries autonomously”

Ha Ha Ha HA HA HAAA

If you knew only a faction of the colonial history of these countries, you could never make sure a statement and claim to have a grasp on reason and logic.

“Prosperity comes with freedom - the Middle East will always have extremism and terrorism and war as long as autocratic governments remain.”

Watch an excellent BBC production called “The Power of Nightmares” its about creating an imaginary enemy, and using the most ignorant and narrow sighted fanatics in the U.S (fundamentalist Christians), to vote a fanatic (who offers them nothing but prayers) organization in power. Its scary how similar Islamic and Christian fundamentalists are.

The youths of many Arab/ Persian counties claim to hate the US, lets face they are the biggest imperial tree in the forest since the decline of European empires, The human race tents to hate its cause economic and cultural of oppression, read some of George Washington’s writings of the subject

by Noel Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:30

Calling for withdrawal of coalition troops NOW is effectively calling for genocide.
In their haste to see President Bush fail the usual suspects allow their true concerns to be seen - they truly do not give a fiddlers fuck for the people of Iraq.

by Shannon Fri Mar 31, 2006 15:10

Noel, you seem to forget that the Iraqi's aren't the only ones being killed. There are US men and women over there dying as well.

I know, we've created a mess over there by going in in the first place. Can't change that. We've created an even bigger problem by not going in with enough troops to end Saddam's regine quickly, and efficiently. Can't change that either. The results of all this is that we have different groups of people who have never managed to live together peacefully, fighting for power and control of the country, now on the midst of a civil war...according to the politicians. (Not sure how much more death, destruction, and fighting has to happen before they actually call it a civil war...) You say there will be a genocide should we pull out now. I disagree. A new strong leader hasn't emerged yet to call for a genocide as their all still fighting to gain power. I simply cannot see a reason for our troops to be caught in the middle of a country fighting a civil war.

Bush has made so many mistakes with this war. How many more men and women does he have to murder before he gets his much desired "victory?"

by Tom Paine Fri Mar 31, 2006 15:39

'Watch an excellent BBC production called “The Power of Nightmares” its about creating an imaginary enemy, '

An imaginary enemy who flies imaginary planes into imaginary buildings. An imaginary enemy who rules an imaginary country called Iran and stones imaginary women to death. An imaginary enemy who reprints the imaginary Protocols of the Elders of Zion and calls for the imaginary destruction of the imaginary state of Israel.

by The Fonse Fri Mar 31, 2006 15:54

The people of the middle east have no human rights - the government on a whim can march in and take their property - their economies are regulated in favour of the elite who control all the strings.
The elites spend the money stolen from the people on luxurious palaces and huge military infrastructure.

But if these tyrants can be overthrown, democratic control of government representatives garanteed, legal protection of property insitituted and enforcement of the law cleansed of corruption - then ordinary people will be in control of their own destines - with their property secure they will be prepared to take risks, invest, trade, recieve credit and prosper. Prosperity brings futher prosperity if it is supported by low taxes and investment in education.

But none of that is possible in countries throughout the Middle East where terrorists, tyrants and terrorists are in control - they are the source of the poverty and violence in the region and their removal will bring freedom and give the Arabs the chance to catch up with the West - trading nations who are democratic and free are less likely to go to war than despots.

America has made blunders in Iraq - but was the freedom of Europe from Marxism and Communism achieved without blunders - in the long run the nations of Europe trived once the old monarchs and tyrants has gone - the same can happen in the Middle East - sixty years ago Europe was in ruins now it enjoys freedoms and riches that other countries who remained tyrannies can only dream of.

by Air Filth Waterrain Fri Mar 31, 2006 17:24

You seem to think the whole Middle East is the enemy. The fact is most people are inherently good, despite what ever dogmatic political and religious views they might have. People generally have no interest in politics until it has an impact on their lives.

It is ironic that many people, who attack the dogmatic oppression caused by using Islam as a tool for controling the "hearts on Minds", fail to see their own dogmatic augments of US Vs THEM.

To use the Nazi term Terror on Terror, it’s a simple equation and cold fact that if countries don’t want to be victims of terrorists they should stop were leaders participating in terrorism.

On the topic of genocide, how many people in Iraq were butchered in the first Gulf war, how many people died as a result of embargoes (over a million), how many have being butchered since the invasion. If that does not count as Genocide, how many people does it take.

There are many people out there who would gladly detonate a nuclear bomb for Allah or Jesus, Zio.,… or what ever source they get their justification from. The world is not big enough or strong enough for the amount of irrational hate there is out there. A little understanding and enlightenment would go a long way.

Fuck Propaganda. The public is subjected to the ongoing institutionalization of “truth” and “reality” that is premised in total information warfare.

Fuck Stereotypes, Mythologies and Deceptions

One Race The Human Race

by Steve Fri Mar 31, 2006 19:16

"One Race The Human Race"

Thats a mythology of the Western liberal left - it is confined to the US and Europe - a mere social construct - it is plain as the nose on your face that there are humanoids with are "white" "black" "Asian" etc. They have different facial features e.g. whites have pale comlexions, blacks have deep brown skin color, Asians are yellow with slit eyes and usually black hair while Arabs have swarthy complexions.
How do you know they come from the same ancestor?

I think to overcome race hatred the governments should make it a law that we fuck eachother till we are all the same color

by Air Filth Waterrain Fri Mar 31, 2006 20:19

i meant the way we think not, not they way we look, apart from huge cultural,knowledge...etc differences human beings share many similar traits in how we think, yes including race hate

Its not a right wing left wing bullshit argument its how nature made its greatest creation the human mind.

by Roswell75 - the froggies Sat Apr 01, 2006 00:09 Roswell75 at yahoo dot co dot uk 24 , rue campo-formio 75013 Paris 0874561823

Middle-east in the mdedieval time was organized. Then Europeans colonialists succeeded to disorganize all for their own benefits. They choosed some leaders able to defend the benefits of the European countries. Then one by one, Europeans had to leave these countries but with some new frontiers and leaders not choosed by the local population.

Now a new type of colonialism exist in almost all developping countries, through selling weapons, through providing money to one group or another able to take control of the country in favor of a "rich" country.

In africa, in the middle east, in asia, lots of developping countries are in "war time" because of the need of us "rich countries" to gain influence and benifts of their natural resources at the minimum price.

US, France, England, Russia are the major one I can think of as weapons dealer. Most war start because one of these 4 is supporting a group against a government close to another of these 4 countries.
The result were a bunch of new dictators and kings taking control of different countries with the support of a rich country .. Saddam was one of these.

Now the US felt the need to bring "peace" in afghanistan, in Bagdad ... Europeans cannot critisize that since they were doing the same in the past. The only difference is that these countries have already experienced colonialism.
When the army responsible for their freedom only defended the buildings used to extract petrol once they took control of the main cities, the message to the population was clear...

If we take Irak for example, 62% of the popluation are Chiites, Saddam was backed by the US and become the leader of Irak even though he wasn't a Chiite.

Why are the US staying in Irak now ? mainly because they do not wish the Chiite to become the leaders of Irak, because they would be in favor of the US; they are not staying in Irak only because they want a democratic government... or they would invade Saudi Arabia as well.

Now the US have to face 2 solutions:
1) They leave Irak and there is a big chance this would end in a civil war, but there is also a chance the situation will quickly improve. However the nex government would not be necessary close to the US.
2) they stay until they're able to find a new saddam

Petrol or not Petrol, here is the question....