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Tuesday March 07, 2006 16:13
by Joe Lynch - lris
lris at eircom dot net
16 Beechgrove Avenue Limerick
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Comments (33 of 33)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33The above posting refers to the death of Dwane Foster (22) who died early this morning after being held in custody at Coolock gardai barracks. Mr Foster was being held in connection with the shooting dead of Donna Clearey over the weekend.
Whats the chance of the truth coming about about what happend to this man when in Garda custody? Maybe one day the so called government will apply some democracy to an Garda Siochaina and appoint and independent inspector. Its long over due (maybe 50 years at this stage...). I wont hold my breath,
S
if the old "Father" Peter "i sa nuthin" McVerry " Wheelock Theory holds up now and if there is massive social unrest in O'Connell Street this weekend over another "death in custody" ....
Three doctors saw him... one twice in the station, one once in the station, and at least one in Beaumont. The guy had serious injurues from a previous bike accident and was recovering from serious cancer.
He will have been asked directly in Baeumont by the doc how the pain had arisen. He made no compliant at that (or any other) time.
The GS wouldn't have bothered knocking lumps off him. They believed he was the shooter, that's why he was separated from his pals (different station). He was also recently paroled. He was going back to jail anyway. 5 arrests, play all 5 off each other. They were expecting at least one of the others - probably the woman - to sing like a canary, then use that to extract a true confession from the late Mr Foster.
A real mess, but unlikely the GS can be accused of any mistreatment (calling one doc twice, another once, then trucking him off to hospital).
I bet you any money the other 4 will confirm he was the shooter, the driver, the planner the everything to get themselves off.
Your motive for demanding an inquiry into the death of the unfortunate Mr. Foster is not based primarily on any concern for the truth (whether he died of ill health due to his alleged heroin addiction or some sort of abuse from Gardai disgusted by the insane murder of Donna Cleary, an entirely innocent young woman). It merely serves the long term socialist project to undermine the structure of present society - the idea that the police apparently represent the forces of bourgeoise capitalist society which socialists want to overthrow and replace with a utopian classless society of total equality - if it is possible to portray the police as oppressers it will contribute to the development of mass consciousness, revolution and the overthrow of the current order.
My subjective opinion at this moment based on the information inaccurate or otherwise and on my emotional reaction to the death of the Donna Cleary and my desire that her murderer/s get their just deserts is glee that Foster is dead - I suspect that he in fact was one of her murderer/s and immediate reaction was that if he was in fact guilty a long sentence of many years in prison was not good enough for him - though i feel the family of Donna Cleary deserved to witness his potential trial for her murder and the full facts of his alleged involvement coming to light before his almost certain conviction and life sentence.
Personally I don't care about the human rights of a suspected murderer if it appears based on initial information that he is a guilty as Lucifer - his life future health and well being are inconvinient to me.
In an ideal world all murder suspects should be given a fair trial - thats why we have courts where these cases are decided rationally by a judge, lawyers and a jury of twelve men and women - its flawed of course but it is the convention we have decided on and work with.
If I was in the position of a Garda in the police station with a scumbag such as Foster at my mercy I would find it very hard to resist the temptation to give him a serious beasting - if I was a Garda senior officer and I discovered what had happened i would find the temptation to ignore Foster's death in such alleged circumstances very difficult to woory about.
My personal opinion, I may well be proved wrong, is that most of the people of Ireland are satisfied that Foster was the killer and that his death is no loss and of little concern irrespective of the circumstances of his death.
My suspicions aside I believe it is more likely that Foster did in fact die of natural causes.
But if it is in fact true that Foster was murdered by over zealous Gardai - legal procedure demands a inquiry and potential trial - but If this never happened I personally would not care less.
You capture my own thoughts, and I suspect those of most others, to the tee. I know people who live/d close to where this character and his gang operated and they are all delighted. One of them told me last night it was like Dublin winning the All Ireland. A sad comment on life in our city perhaps, but a genuine one. Some day people like Seamus above will relaise that it is not the Gardai who are perceived to be the oppressors of most working class people, no matter how critical they might be of them - and generally they are critical for their LACK of action against these people.
I remember the case of a young boy arrested and who later died.
I believe there was case in the 1980's in which a unemloyed man was take in custody and died of unexplained injuries.
There have been shootings of republicans which may or may not have been cases of "shoot to kill"
The allegations in Donegal and the activities of gardai have brought the force into disrepute and the full truth appears to have been swept under the carpet by Gardai top brass and successive ministers for justice.
There have been several cases of miscarriage of justice over many decades.
There is alleged collusion with Republicans in the murderers of two senior RUC officers in 1989.
All suspected corruption must be investigated - in an ideal world the corruption should be stamped out. But human nature as it is and the how fickleness of public attention this doesn't always happen.
But my personal opinion in this case is that Foster died of natural causes - but if he didn't i don't really care if the Gardai in question are tried for murder - give them a medal instead!
You do not care about the human rights of murder suspects and would find it difficult to resist giving the likes of Dwane Foster a good beating if you had him at your mercy. If you were a senior guard and discovered that a suspect had been murdered in one of your cells , you would be inclined to turn a blind eye.
If that is an accurate summation of your views on the matter, then ,it must be said ,that you are advocating murder . I daresay that whoever killed Donna did so with motives and notions of arbitary justice similar to your own.
Donna Cleary was completely innocent - anyone who deliberately kills a completely innocent person is a monster in my eyes and deserves whatever they get - but in civilised societies we try these bastards and give them long jail sentences - but ideally we obliged to respect their human rights but we don't always do and sometimes we just let it go.
I mean I think we all secretly want the death penalty but we know time has moved on.
We would prefer criminals to be dumb enough to draw a gun on the police and get themselves killed so we wouldn't have to have a trial.
A lot of Texans thought Oswald should have got a medal for shooting Kennedy and a lot of Americans thought Ruby was a hero for shooting Oswald.
We felt cheated when OJ and Wacko Jacko got off scot free.
Before I start i wish to say that I myself knew Dwayne Foster and I knew of Donna Cleary although not personally.
My point is that at the end of the day both these people are dead... Their families are left without them.
Donna seemed a lovley girl with a son and her whole life ahead of her ... She was beautiful. Her family now have to pick up the pieces, What do they tell her son???
Dwayne was also a lovley young man and he had 3 children and a girlfriend. His family also have to pick up the pieces... What does his girlfriend tell his children?
Just keep in mind that both Donna and Dwayne are dead... these families are grieving, they have to pick up the pieces , they have to live with the fact that their son/daughter is not coming home.
So please ,let these families grieve, there has been enough hurt and bad feeling and upset over this , Both parties have lost some one who is special to them..
Lisa O Connor.
Finglas.
You cant compare the two. One was a junkie crook, the other was a mother who was attending a party, the author of this post was using a public figure's name as a pseudonym. All instances of that name and replies to it have been replaced with "troll" in the comments that follow. Choose an original pseudonym or use your own name please. Other posts may be deleted without further consideration as "impersonation". Thanks. - 1 of IMC editorial
Who clearly knew a different person than everyone else!
Troll,
I am not comparing the two. nor am i for one minute trying to condone what Dwayne did, he had no right!!
My point is Troll, that after the Thoughtless actions of Dwayne Foster on Sunday morning it is now the families that are left...
The Foster family have to live with the fact that thier son Killed a young mother... Their son left a young boy without his mother.. These are the one's who are listening to comment's like "Dwayne the Junkie" when in fact Dwayne wasn't a herion addict at all !!
For the Cleary family... How do they cope with the fact that thier lovley daughter, And she was Beautiful.. Will never be home.. What do they tell her son...they too are listening to Comments like "Donna was no Angel "... She sure looked like one , she was a beauty!!!
Regardless of what any of us think of either party.... both are gone.. So try and keep in mind the families that are left with out them... they will have to live with this for the rest of thier lives!!
If he wasnt a heroin addict then why was he prescribed methadone twice while he was in custody? His death should be fully investigated but as a "human being" he deserves no sympathy at all. It would have been better for all concerned if you had never raised this.
We all have our own opinion !!! It is our right as human beings.
I never in my life saw that side of Dwayne ! He was obliging and considerate to me ..
So now i know who he really was... It still doesn't change my feeling's on him...
I want to remember him for the person I knew...
You all seem to be missing the point!!
I am not defending Dwayne , I am not condoning what he did.... All I am saying is remember his family they had no part in this but they are now left to deal with the mess!
And as for the Methadone... I cannot say why or IF he was even given it...
I would think This is the reason for the enquiry !!!
Are you suggesting that 2 different doctors prescribed methadone to someone who didnt need it or want it? Perhaps they forced it down his throat.
Who said it was 2 diffrent doctors ? Who said he got Metadone twice ??
Were you there Troll? Can you say what is the truth and what is'nt the truth ?
I knew Dwayne since i was a child... these reports were the first i have heard of him being a herion user!!
Troll ,
You are trying to fight me.... I am on your side ...Donna and her family are the victims here.. This whole mess should not have happened...
It was reported on RTE and in the papers. I dont believe all that I hear or read but if the doctors had not prescribed methadone they would have come forward by now.
Maybe this is one of the reason for the investigation....
His herion addiction is news to his family...
That's why he got the methadone. He specifically asked for it.
In answer to your question "were you there?", the answer is yes.
Does anyone remember the way the police in England span the
shooting-dead of the Brazillian electrician ,Jean -Charles de Menezes , last year?
They put it about that de Menezes was a Muslim terrorist carrying a bomb on to the
London underground ,and they kept up that shameful lie for days afterwards . Senior police officers in London were quoted in today’s Guardian saying that they knew within hours of the shooting that they had killed an innocent man .The knee-jerk reaction of police forces throughout the world when they are involved in controversial killings is to go into cover-up mode . Democrats have a duty to be wary .
See: http://www.guardian.co.uk/menezes/story/0,,1726675,00.html
I wasn’t present when Donna was shot or when Wayne died in custody and so can't
be sure of the circumstances leading to their tragic deaths. Reports today suggested that there was “a struggle” when the Kildare farmhouse where the murder suspects were located on Sunday night was raided . These young men could very well have been roughed-up by macho cops confident that they would never be held to account by this country's political elite or by the corporate media . But the parents of Dwayne are entitled to know what happened to their son in the last hours of his life . If he had been my son I would be calling for an independent inquiry .
"Young men" !!! You make them sound like a fking football team that were out having the laugh after a few pints and were selected at random by "Macho cops". They were and are a dangerous and vicious gang who have terrorised their community for years and been responsible for a number of deaths prior to Donna Cleary.
I am not disputing Lisa's claim to know the family. She sounds genuine unlike some of the soi-distant bleeding hearts here but I think Lisa even you would agree that these people did a lot of harm and have little sympathy in South Finglas, whatever about sympathy for their families.
In a round about way we agree on most points.... My main point is that he DID have a family... mother , father, sisters, brothers... Sure he had kids and a girl who obviously loved him.I am not defending him in any way... I myself am a young mother and i could'nt bear it if some one had to tell my child they wouldn't see me again.. This is a heart breaking situation for Donna's family and I really feel for them... They are in my prayers daily.
Dax this is my point... remember that these peolpe are left now with the after math of Dwayne's actions last Sunday.. they are entitled to know what happened to Dwayne .. it is thier right as family and parents.
I am a firm believer in "what goes around comes around" and if this is the case it proves my belief... But I think the investigation might be a way for the family to deal with the grief at this time.Why try to fight or dismiss it if this is the only way they can come to terms with what has happened to him?
On the other hand my Mother died of a massive brain hemmorage... she took ill on a tuesday.. taken to hospital and they knew on first examination the doctors knew what was wrong... It took a week for her to die. She died the following wednesday.
Why did the doctor's not know he was hemmoraging ? Why did they discharge him if he was so ill?
It worries me to think that we could be discharged from hospital with a fatal lllness and die some hours later!!
Lisa O Connor.
You are quiet right... the truth needs to come out about how a man could have been seen by 3 docs and still die.
I believe that the conclusion will be that his condition was masked by preexisting conditions and treatments (cancer, bike injuries, heroin addiction) which probably resulted in the actual health problem which eventually cause death being difficult to diagnose.
PS... Re: The comment about "macho cops"? Is that more or less macho than randomly peppering a house with bullets then driving away? How would you feel if you were trying to apprehend a gang of killers in a house? Anyway that's off the point.
Dax,
I feel they had the right to go and catch these people by what ever force was nessisary to obtain them for questioning... I do not aggree that they have the right to use voilence to get these criminals.. That would be hipocritical...But Just like the foster family have a right to know what happened to thier son , the Cleary family have every right to know what led to thier daughters death and what happened to thier daughter who was totally innocent .
They were all refused entry to the party and they all went off and conspired to return to the house to get revenge !
If they had nothing to hide, why hide away in kildare ? Why did the guards struggle with them in the house... There is no question that even though all of them could'nt have pulled the trigger , they are all involved and all had a part !
Revenge in this case was fatal to Donna Cleary... It is a discrace that in this day and age the cost of a life is so low... this kind of tragedy is happening on a weekly basis and it worries me as a parent ,that I am bringing up kids in this world and unless i am very careful in decisions i make concerning my children... They could either be the shooter or the victim!!!!
On one hand I knew Dwayne Foster and his Pals and I knew that they were petty criminals , But I never knew them to be voilent...
On the other hand I know of other gangs in the dublin area not only finglas ... That are so voilent they are nearly un-touchable by the law and the local people live in fear!
As the generations of criminals die off a newer more vicious gang are in the making ! How do we protect ouselfes and our families from these people and thier actions of violence?
Very worrying !
Larry posted this on Wednesday:
“But my personal opinion in this case is that Foster died of natural causes - but if he didn't i don't really care if the Gardai in question are tried for murder - give them a medal instead! “
That is the sort of message we’ve been getting from sections of the gardai-embedded media all this week – not in so many words, but not far from it. I assume that either you knew Wayne personally or somehow have access to his criminal record. I didn’t know him and don’t think I have the right to be either his judge or jury . But even if I did know him to be a dangerous thug , I don't think that we should be giving the gardai the right to be his executioner.
I would have thought that decent members of the gardai would feel the same way .
I knew Dwayne and I did not know him as the person the media are portraying....Not to say that it may be the truth !
I always found him to be friendly and courtious... I knew he was a small time criminal but I never knew him to be voilent or even to be involved in a street fight or brawl.
It is god who will gudge him now for his actions..
It is sad that Donna is gone because of these actions...
What comes around will go around, as is clearly the case here.
obit.... obit... obit.....
i am so glad to of found this so i can set the record straight for my brother did not shoot dead a young mother my brother was not a junkie my brother was a son, brother and a father to four young children. one that he never even got to see. if the so called gardai that killed him were so sure of themselves that he did it then why didnt they charge him with murder? its a question you all need to ask yourselves. when your finished writing shit about a person that you dont even know. as for the comment "they believed he was shooter thats why he was seperate from his pals" were you there? how do you no he was seperate because he wasn't until the night he died. he was in a seperate cell but another one of them was in same station. he was in the station long enough for them to charge him and they didnt and why not? they were so sure of themselves it was him and so are all you by the looks of it. i am a person who used to believe in everything i read until i saw and read the lies they wrote and are still writing today about my brother. i hope they find the one who fired that gun because everyday that person is getting away with murder. and the reason that the lovely guards are letting that person away with it is because they have gotten away with murder themselves. you people seem to think that it is ok to murder someone and get away with it if you have a badge.and some of you think whatever the guards did to him is ok you are condoning what they did. you are saying its ok for them to commit murder. my family know the truth and thats what matters when the guarda kill someone close to you i hope you feel the same way about letting them away with MURDER
I made a post in another thread regarding the violence in our society and the differing views of violence perpetrated against men as opposed to violence perpetrated against women.
You can read the comment here: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/86225?author_name=Hubri...37440
Essentially the comments of Larry, Historian and Troll :) sum up the attitude of many in our society.
A man dies in Garda custody. All we have to go on are the Garda records of the event, the media's sensationalised accounts of this mans background, and possibly the recollections of some people in Beaumont Hospital. The Gardai have proven that they are not to be trusted in the event of a death in their custody.
Some of the commenters have made reference the 'innocence of the young lady' - and I'm sure she is innocent. She is always described as an 'innocent young lady'.
He is invariably portrayed as a 'violent scumbag'.
I have no idea if he is innocent or guilty in a moral sense, of the charges the Garda claim they were going to bring against him - and neither do you.
Equally I happen to know, and so do they if they stop to think about it, that the young man was also innocent - certainly in the legal sense - until convicted of this crime in a criminal court - that is what our courts are for, and that is the only sense that matters in our society, as the many Tribunals have demonstrated.
If you are advocating 'vigilante justice', then essentially you are supporting the type of crime YOU all have accused this young man of. For that is what he was apparently wanted by the Gardai for - vigilantism. That fact you can't see that surprises me not in the least. Seeing that would require using your brain for something other than plotting revenge against what you perceive to be the enemies of this wonderful society of ours.
You people demonstrate all that is wrong in our violent society. You're ultra-willing to believe anything the Garda and the Media tell you about the 'sumbags' that just happen to die in Garda custody, and yet at the same time you appear outraged at the level of violence in our society.
There a nice short word for what you are - Sheep, baa baaa, ya bloodthirsty Sheep (bit of an oxymoron there, I know, but I'll leave it in anyway ;-)
For some reason you can't see how the two are intimately intertwined.
It is a pity you appear to have neither the wit nor wisdom to see that.
God help us if you lot are indicative of the Irish mentality - and I truly fear that you are.
You only have yourselves to blame - you are willing to accept violence meted out by the state in our institutions, prisons, borstals, orphanages, Garda Stations etc. . You rail against the problems created in society by the high level of violence out there, and yet don't seem to have a clue how YOU yourselves are contributing towards it.
If you are willing to turn a blind eye towards the violence of State representatives, then yes YOU personally are responsible for the level of violence in the wider society.
But to be honest, I seriously doubt any of you will ever, EVER, comprehend that.