Iran's envoy to Portugal questions Holocaust

by hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Thu Feb 23, 2006 23:02

"An Israeli lawyer, Ervin Shahar, says he has asked Germany to charge Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (an ex-brickie elected in August 2005) with denying the Holocaust. Mr Ahmadinejad was widely criticised when he said last year that the Holocaust was a "myth" and that Israel should be "wiped off the map". Germany passed a law in 1993 forbidding Holocaust denial. It is punishable by up to five years in prison. Six million Jews were killed by the Nazis during World War II"
published 21h23 GMT http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4741042.stm

and so nice to hear from radio liberty again link with photo of the ex-brickie denying the holocaust.
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/02/549D1952-E....html

by pat c Sat Feb 18, 2006 16:13

no. i'm saying that gays and women shouldnt forgot their oppression.

what have hammas got to offer to women or gays? the right to be treated like animals!

the regime in iran should be overthrown, but it should come from within. progressives however should support the democratic iranian opposition.

i oppose imperialism.

i oppose zionism.

i also oppose islamic states. i would like to see all of them go. as should all socialists.

by Dr.Nightdub Sat Feb 18, 2006 16:05

Starting at Morocco and going right the way across north Africa, Palestine, Iraq, detouring up into Chechnya and continuing back to Afghanistan and Pakistan, people are faced with poverty, appallingly corrupt regimes, etc etc. The US army is waiting out there, it weighs fifteen hundred tons. The people ain't happy, they wanna fight back. Funded by whoever, Islamic fundamentalists offer the only real resistance or force for change to the current situation generally. The fundamentalists carry an awful lot of baggage which we in the west, at a minimum, dislike intensely.

Realistically, what do you expect the people in those countries to do? The only options they've got RIGHT NOW is to either accept their lot or back the fundamentalists. Honestly Pat, you're one step away from saying "Stop this misguided resistance and start building the party."

by pat c Sat Feb 18, 2006 15:34

" However it's at least contradictory, if not downright hypocritical to make a post about holocaust denial and then start banging on about "islamofascism" with the implication that all Muslims are to be hated. Let's see, identifying adherents of a particular religion as The Enemy."

i never said that. my fight is with islam as a religion and islamic fundamentalists. i have no fight with ordinary muslims.

."Or, on a whole different level of magnitude, but seeing as it happened more locally you'd think people might remember it more, institutional discrimination against northern Catholics."

i have written extensively on that on indy. use the search engine.

"As it happens, I think ALL the major religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam - have obnoxious strands to them to some degree or other. "

agreed

"But I'm also prepared to believe that people follow those religions not BECAUSE they're obnoxious, but for whatever emotional / spiritual / psychological comfort they derive, however illusory."

agreed. but if their religious beliefs interfere with my freedom then its another story.

"Religious discrimination is not that different to discrimination on the basis of race, nationality, gender or sexuality - unless you view the latter as being genetic whereas religion is a matter of belief, and if you're going to tolerate discrimination on the grounds of beliefs, you're into well dodgy territory. Pat C, please bear that in mind next time Islam makes your blood boil."

islamic law states that women who have sex outside of marriage and gays should face death or at least be flogged. thats what happens in many islamic countries.
you cant change your sexual orientation, you can change your reigion.

i'm not talking about religious discrimination, i'm attacking islam in the same way i would attack catholicism or presbyteriamism

"Tackling the illusions and obnoxious strands of religion - Islam or any other - is an issue alright, but it's not the most important one right now."

it is for gays and women.

"There's a bigger picture. The main problem isn't that the people of the Middle East are led by Islamic fundamentalists. The main problem is that they're being invaded, bombed and shot by US / UK imperialists."

no reason why the struggles cant go hand in hand:

down with imperialism!

down with the islamic regime in iran!

for womens rights and for gay rights!

by Dr.Nightdub Sat Feb 18, 2006 15:22

I wanna make one thing clear at the outset - I absolutely oppose holocaust denial 100%, no matter who does it, neo-Nazis or Iranian ambassadors.

However it's at least contradictory, if not downright hypocritical to make a post about holocaust denial and then start banging on about "islamofascism" with the implication that all Muslims are to be hated. Let's see, identifying adherents of a particular religion as The Enemy...what did that lead to before? Well - the holocaust itself for one. Or, on a whole different level of magnitude, but seeing as it happened more locally you'd think people might remember it more, institutional discrimination against northern Catholics.

As it happens, I think ALL the major religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam - have obnoxious strands to them to some degree or other. But I'm also prepared to believe that people follow those religions not BECAUSE they're obnoxious, but for whatever emotional / spiritual / psychological comfort they derive, however illusory.

Religious discrimination is not that different to discrimination on the basis of race, nationality, gender or sexuality - unless you view the latter as being genetic whereas religion is a matter of belief, and if you're going to tolerate discrimination on the grounds of beliefs, you're into well dodgy territory. Pat C, please bear that in mind next time Islam makes your blood boil.

Tackling the illusions and obnoxious strands of religion - Islam or any other - is an issue alright, but it's not the most important one right now. There's a bigger picture. The main problem isn't that the people of the Middle East are led by Islamic fundamentalists. The main problem is that they're being invaded, bombed and shot by US / UK imperialists.

by pat c Sat Feb 18, 2006 14:56

i wasnt being attacked by jews, i was being attacked by islamophiles, the same ones who have been attacking me elsewhere. this is obvious from their comments on the editorial list where they refered back to my previous crticism of islamic fundamentalism.

these islamophiles wont tolerate any criticism of iran, even if it means that they line themselves up with holocaust deniers.

these people want to see jews driven into the sea.

pardon me if i'm also a bit sceptical of your bona fides.

by Gay Geori Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:53 gaygeori at graffiti dot net

True enough it was said in the Irish Times. I wonder if our embarrassment of a "President", Masses McAleese, will condem them?

Oddly, I didn't see a bunch of enraged Hassidic Jews from "Little Jerusalem" (Portobello) in Dublin marching on the Mosque off the South Circular Road, or Israeli F-16's bombing Gaza in return.

Nor did we see Catholics on top of the EU buildings (just as we saw Palestinian gunmen on top of EU buildings, in scenes, uncoincidentally reminiscent of the scenes in Munich in '72 and Steven Speilberg's movie) when pictures of the Pope Nua in Nazi uniform were published by..... Indymedia....

But now we see 10 dead in Libya.... draw your own conclusions...

by ruth Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:46

What I noticed was how the writer pretended he was attacked by islamofascists last night when the comments were used by someone with different to usual typeface, which he too used, all those comments are gone now.
But why didn't he realise he was being attacked by jews?
If he really was a defender of holocaust remembrance he wouldn't have quoted the denial.
fascists are such liars.

by simon Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:29

a story which was not reported in the commercial media gets put up here without the obvious rebuttal. No-one ever said six milion were burnt. Why would someone quote the iranians and not correct them and then go on to talk about anti-semitism? This thread stinks.
and the author's protestations of innocence are hollow. At the very least six million europeans were selected on the grounds of their religious or ethnic background and stripped of their citizenship, educational qualifications, property, imprisoned, put to slave labour, tatooed, experimented upon and systematically murdered.
And IBM provided the data processing technology.

No-one can touch these issues without recognising the fact, and to quote the Iranians without correcting them. Its a very badly written article which though pretending to report an insult has further compounded it.

by pat c Fri Feb 17, 2006 19:08

in todays Irish Times a cartoon in an iranian newspaper is described: hitler is in bed with anne frank. the caption reads: "write that in your diary anne frank".

this is the sort of anti semitic filth which appers in the iranian press every day. is there any possibility that the islamophiles might condemn this instead of demonising me because i stand up to the islamofascists?

by pat c Fri Feb 17, 2006 19:01

i'm appalled that you refuse to condemn holocaust denial. its strange that you and your ilk are outraged by a few cartoons of muhammed but you ignore the anti semitic cartoons which appear every day in the islamic press.

i've made it clear that i think the iranian people themselves must overthrow the islamofascist regime which rules iran.

criticising holocaust denial does not make me a neocon. how low some people have fallen. in their zeal to bow down before islam they will find common cause with holocaust deniers.

by rabitte Fri Feb 17, 2006 18:41

Why add to the column inches of hate against Iran, some seem to have gotten into a lock of defending their point to degree of doing the neo-cons work for them yes criticise them but if you want to write about Iran write about its people that are trying to bring down its elite that you mention not add to the lets bomb Iran frenzy. which the above article does and little else.

by pat c Fri Feb 17, 2006 14:21

dont forget the israelis already have nukes. i'm not happy at the idea of iran getting nukes but i dont like the fact that the israelis apparently have at heast 300 nukes. enough to destroy the entire middle east. if a nuclear war starts, even if it stays regional, as well as the middle east, parts of africa, asia and europe could be made uninhabitable.

the current iranian regime are misogynistic, ant-semitic, homophobic undemocratic thugs. but change must come from within. support, including arms if necessary, should be given to the iranian resistance.

by Cliff Fri Feb 17, 2006 14:15

A few well placed nukes would incinerated most of Israel in few seconds eh?