Austria has arrested David Irving for Holocaust Denial.

by Seamus Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:26

Is the irony of arresting someone because they say something unpalatable or untrue not lost on so the called "anti nazis"? This sort of behaviour is classic nazi facism. Is the holocaust such a holy cow that no one is allowed on the pain of punishment, to question aspects of it? I for one would like to know where the total of 6 million jews murdered comes from, how was this figure arrived at? I am not for one minute denying that the nazis brutally murdered and persecuted jews among others. But shouldnt we get to hear Irving and what he has to say, even if it is to just laugh at him. I for one would love to attend one of his lectures and put questions to him afterwards. Unfortunatly modern day nazi anti free speech fasicts prevent this. Whos next I wonder, anyone who questions american war motives? anti terrorist "laws"? only a matter of time.....

by A10 Fri Nov 18, 2005 14:06

Hear Mr Irvings "theories".You get mr Chouday a radical islamist boned up on them,and no doubt no friend of Jews.And as he is flavour of the month in Ireland with a free platform in TCD and no doubt many welcomes to return.No doubt under "free speech" he could espouse them without let or hinderance.

by me - personal capacity Fri Nov 18, 2005 14:39

surely free speech should only be applicable to the point where you are causing harm to other people. Holocaust denial goes a bit beyond just saying what you think, depending exactly what wording is used it can be really harmful, give people scapegoats and incite hatred. It could be the cause of physical harm and it's pretty obvious if you look at Ireland the last thing we need is more racism.
Depends how far you want to take freedom of speech, all Hitler really did was talk, but he talked people into murder, genocide in fact.

by james - none Fri Nov 18, 2005 15:17 jamesm at bpmultipage dot ie

Freedom of speech means just that, without any restrictions, or conditions. Otherwise it ceases to be freedom, but a limited range of allowable thoughts and expression, punishable by imprisionment. Yes this smacks of fascism. There are already laws against incitment to hatred, denying the scale of the holocaust hardly qualifies, it is just an academic exercise.

by Michael Fri Nov 18, 2005 15:46

David Irving is a racist bigot, but to arrest him on the grounds that his words might lead to some violence is over the top. You've got to round up all the priests, rabbi and imams then too. Rotten as it may be, but for every one person killed by the Nazis is their campaign of extermination and genocide against European Jews, Roma, and others, there must be at least one or two more in history who were murdered in the name of religion.

by Fintan lawler Fri Nov 18, 2005 15:54

Professor Kevin McDonald was a character witness for Irving at the Lipstadt trial. McDonalds anti-Semitic books have been praised by William Hughes, longtime columnist for the Irish People newspaper in New York, at the time edited by John McDonagh. Hughes also was the longtime Washington correspondent for Radio Free Eireann, hosted by McDonagh on WBAI in New York. McDonagh regards Hughes as his political mentor. McDonagh is the New York representative of Republican Sinn Fein.

And these characters are accusing the Provos of departing from republican principles!

by Ben Oghre Fri Nov 18, 2005 17:24

It couldn’t have happened to a better person; for years He has been a thorn in the flesh for many holocaust survivors whose presence and testimonies at these camps are evidence enough for a historian and a researcher like him to establish some empirical evidence.

David Irvine was not interested in the truth of what happened, He is rather a crusader for neo-Nazi organisations looking for a mouth piece in people like him.

I hope he gets a lengthy jail term to serve as a reminder of how the world has come to view such extremist views

by ex-Brit Sat Nov 19, 2005 20:51

Seamus, you're showing up your ignorance. You demand:

"I for one would like to know where the total of 6 million jews murdered comes from, how was this figure arrived at?"

The numbers were arrived at from the Nazis themselves. They were such obsessive and pedantic record keepers that they wrote down every person they murdered. Well, 1+1+1 etc. adds up to 6 million.

This is backed up by testimony of survivors who recorded the names of their murdered family and friends.

Holocaust denial is a crime that stands all on its own and is not comparable to being anti-Iraq war or anything else. If the Holocaust is denied it could lead to it happening again. Simple as that. Some people here wouldn't mind that however.

by the bean counter Sun Nov 20, 2005 23:33

So Mr. Ex-Brit, all these records add up to a round figure of precisely 6 million do they ? If not, what pray tell is the exact figure based on these records and where can we find a reliable reference source documenting the breakdown leading to this total ?

I'm afraid you're showing yourself up. The figure of "six million" is surely no more than an *estimate* that crops up frequently in Holocaust historiography. If one were to be allowed freedom of speech on this matter (not always guaranteed in a forum like this) one could add that it may or may not be an accurate *estimate* but above all else it remains to the best of my knowledge an *estimate* not a figure arrived at by simply totting up the obsessively detailed accounting records of some Nazi bureaucrats.

I may indeed be wrong on this point and I am happy to be corrected if this is the case. Contrary to what someone like yourself might be keen to allege, I am no Holocaust denier, simply interested in the right to have an open discussion on such matters unhampered by unnecessary dogmatism.

by SH Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:56

While the 6 million figure has been disputed by non holocaust deniers people seem to forget or ignore the fact that around 5 million communists, homosexuals and other ethnic minorities were killed.

by gay geori Mon Nov 21, 2005 13:28 gg at bearla dot ie

"courageous students to address an ancient university association"

Q: Where have we heard this infantile undergraduate polemic about "freedom of speech" before?

Ans: Every time the Phil, Hist, L+H, Swiftian Hoax Freedom Institute One Man Show D. Wankshaft, and the rest of the red-socked fop wannabes need to promote one of their tiresome and irrelevant debates or themselves.

In fact, the news about Irving is about one week old. It was even covered by the Irish Independent on 17 Nov.

Reference point: The story of Irving and his visit to Ireland's university sector has been well documented already on Indymedia.ie. See:
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=70876&search_text=andrew%20black&condense_comments=false#comment115039

by A10 Mon Nov 21, 2005 13:37

The six million is an estimated total of all the peoples that were killed.Not an exact figure for just the Jewish pouplation,although they were the most killed.
As for Irving being a nazi spokesman,at one rally in Belguim a bunch on neo nazis showed up and started seig heiling Irving.Irving told them to basically shut up and sit down as their tactics and carry on was bringing shame and disgrace to Germany.Not very pro nazi sentiments there.
Also if he is such a nazi supporter why then did he torpedo the Hitler diaries in the 80s at the Stern press conference.When such agust bodies as Trevor Donald another historian of note declared them genuine???It would have benefitted him if the diaries were declared genuine.

by Apalled Mon Nov 21, 2005 14:48

A10 you are totally wrong again

6 million is the estimated figure for Jewish dead.

other groups such as homosexuals, roma, etc estimated that 5 million have died.

Maybe you buddies in the German special forces have brainwashed you

by A10 Mon Nov 21, 2005 21:47

maths on your part 6mill+5 mill equals 11,[and noone apart from fools,those who are making money from the Holocaust industry or who dont know what they are talking about has ever come up with this figure].
The standard figure for this is six million,go and argue it with the Nurnberg war trials documentation
Yeah,yeah all Germans are Nazis arent they???Same as ALL Irish are IRA bombers.! YOU are a racist IRISH prick!

by io Tue Nov 22, 2005 14:50

And now attention turns to those meetings he had or didn't have early last week with various members of the austrian establishment.
Whilst Austria's sunday newspapers were shocked to learn that a newspaper from Berlusconi's media empire "il Foglio" had criticised the decision to arrest him, which just goes to show...
http://www.kurier.at/oesterreich/1183435.php
http://www.orf.at/index.html?url=http%3A//www.orf.at/ticker/200432.html
Il Foglio's readership seemed happy only one letter in protest against the editorial which said "the real fascist is Saddam not irving" got published.

just goes to show....

by A10 Tue Nov 22, 2005 22:26

You WOULD have MORE reason to post anti German comments with your backround then?So I suppose I could replace that with all Jews are Palestinaian baby killers.??Or all Brits are Paddy killers? See racisim can work both ways.!!
I didnt shove any of your people into a gas chamber or into an oven.
So dont try laying your blame on me.As a matter of fact one of my uncles on the Allied side was one of the first US presonel into Dachau.
It happened,yes the German people will carry that stigma for evermore,but it is the Jewish people who are making themselves unpouplar by keep coming back to remind us of the fact and wanting compensation for everything that happened to them.
What makes you so damn special???
The world has had more genocide since then of which the Jewish race hasnt been to reluctant to participate in either..
You would want to start getting over it and stop demanding special treatment for every slight.You know the Russians lost as many in the invasion of their homeland.
Heavns sake the Irish suffered genocide under the British in the 500 years of their occupation.Do we go whining to the UK and the world evey time the Brits crack a Paddy joke or shoot or imprision one of us??We would have the UK BROKE with compo claims for dispossesion,enslavement,etcetc etc.But you dont see us going on about it at every opportunity,except the few total republican headbangers.
Also If you are so sure as a race that all and every incident is gospel as what happened to you,which I do belive did happen.Why are you so reluctant to allow any dissent on this matter???
Going by your point that it is racist to even discuss this,you would have to belive that there is somthing to hide.Not only that,for your info Irving never denied the Holocaust,he is questioning the numbers and WHO was actually responsible for signing off the final orders.I would have taught
that would be very pertinent to proving your arguement
.So go on and use the cop out racist excuse to dismiss the arguement.But the fact is the more the Jewish people and the world do not allow debate on this issue,the stronger it will look like you have somthing to hide.
I apologise for calling you a racist Irish prick,but I wont give you the pleasure of being able to crow that I called you a...well you will know what I mean.

by the bean counter Wed Nov 23, 2005 07:45

Surely you know that Jewish people never participate in anything quite as vulgar as genocide .... that is something that others do to them ..... at most they are guilty of a little bit of ethnic cleansing ....

Read the interview with Benny Morris if you don't believe me:

So when the commanders of Operation Dani are standing there and observing the long and terrible column of the 50,000 people expelled from Lod walking eastward, you stand there with them? You justify them?

I definitely understand them. I understand their motives. I don’t think they felt any pangs of conscience, and in their place I wouldn’t have felt pangs of conscience. Without that act, they would not have won the war and the state would not have come into being.

You do not condemn them morally?

No.

They perpetrated ethnic cleansing.

There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide—the annihilation of your people—I prefer ethnic cleansing.

by A10 Wed Nov 23, 2005 14:29

Christ !!!It's just as sick.
So it's Ok for Jews to "ethnically cleanse"an area?But not for the Serbs or Croats?It would be Ok for Protestants to burn Catholics out of areas of Belfast.Or Catholics to ethnically cleanse their State after it's founding of Protestants?Or for Hutus to ethnically cleanse the Tutsis??
You are not much further then from genocide if ethnic cleansing is ok .Just a question of words really in a pretty feeble arguement.

by reddub Wed Nov 23, 2005 17:41

freedom of speech doesnt imply total impunity.
is it ok to label someone a paedophile or something as repugnant and hide behind freedom of speech?
of course not.
shout out fire in a crowded theater?
hmmmmm

the reality is that irvine is a nazi sympathiser with an agenda. he has been caught attempting to destroy documents that didnt fit his argument.

by all means argue whether 5 or 6 m jews were killed while the rest of us fall asleep with the irrelevance of it, but a neo-nazi activist shouldnt be allowed hide behind our 'liberal' freedom to dissent.

its the clasic paradox of whether you give people who want to remove freedom of speech freedom of speech.

or in this case does irvine have the freedom to lie?

by A10 Wed Nov 23, 2005 19:19

wasnt it GB Shaw that said the ultimate test of demoracy is the privilige to shout fire in a crowded theatre??
Also as I stated before Irving is not a nazi sympathiser.He belives that neo nazis are not doing anyone any favour.He is trying to prove/disprove a accepted norm,and prove its historical accuracy.
At one stage in history of mankind we belived the world was flat and the Sun revolved around the world.To say any different was to be accused of heresy and witchcraft and be burned at the stake.
Nowadays,to say that you are expressing some doubts about a supposedly established historical fact.You are accused of being the modern version of a witch in leauge with the devil.It took people like Galleio to pove the church wrong.

Plus we are hyprocritical,we allow radical muslims free speech that ar e hell bent on eradicating Isreal and the Jews,not to mind our way of life,and who would espouse the belif that Hitler was doing a blooddy good job,and was really a nice fellow [for an infidel]
and totally misunderstood,really.We would proably applaud them .Yet,if a recognised historian,which Irving is BTW.His book on Hitler is considerd one of the most authorithive works on the man.says,hold on,did Adolf really sign in person an order for genocide of a race?Or was it a total gross misunderstanding[I know a lame way of explaining somthing like the Holocaust]
And if he did sign this,there surely must be his sig on a doccument somwhere??So where is it?
We go apeshit at any suggestion of this scread ox being challanged,not to mind it being gored.WHY?Everything else gets challanged in mankinds history,why is this subject such a taboo??

by iosaf Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:07

as usual the editorial writers of Europe have been tardy to offer opinions on the case.
But one opinion was made in Spain linking the Irving case to the importance of "historical memory" (something i've a lot of very developed opinions on) in the context of this week's anniversaries 30 years since the death of Franco, 60 years since Nuremburg and 30 years since the proclamation of the Bourbon King in Spain. The point made by four spanish newspaper editorials is that "revisionism" does not only effect historians (and their "clients"/"readers"/"students") of the Nazi regime but many other European countries as well. Every state and country has a revisionist. And the spanish equivalent is Pio Mao a writer who has attempted (quite succesfully) to rewrite the spanish civil war and franco era as a victory for christian liberalism against the bolshevik with not a single atrocity commited. As in Spain : as in Italy : as in Ireland no doubt...

by james Mon Nov 28, 2005 22:10

no it is not ok to label someone a paedophile in the wrong, if published publicly it is libel, and against the law. However it is freedom of speech to insult someone, and there will be the consequences, most likely a punch in the face.
If exercised in a malicious way this can be easily exposed, it does not require draconian laws prohibiting the discussing of certain topics.
If this guy wants to question the facts, so be it. There was a war, history is written by the victors, without doubt whitewashing their attrocities and exaggerating their enemies.

by knitting the threads Thu Feb 09, 2006 19:46

" The trial of a prominent German Holocaust denier extradited from Canada resumed on Thursday and his lawyer charged the case was politically motivated. Ernst Zuendel, publisher of works such as "Did six million really die?" is facing charges of inciting racial hatred in addition to denying that the Nazis killed six million Jews. Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany that is punishable with up to five years in prison. The trial was suspended last year after the judge dismissed his publicly appointed defence lawyer when she produced written submissions that appeared to deny the Holocaust. Zuendel's newly appointed attorney, Hans-Ullrich Beust, said he would defend his client without resorting to grandstanding, though he complained that the trial was politically motivated. "The defence is supposed to defend the accused without prejudice or political misconceptions. But these proceedings are clearly political," Beust told reporters.
State prosecutor Andreas Grossmann told reporters that he expected Zuendel's defence team would try to "drag out the proceedings to create a forum" for Zuendel's ideas."

read full article @ link
http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=14...44000

by anti-fascist Fri Feb 10, 2006 14:43

which have now been reproduced globally (at no extra reward to the cartoonists) has now suspended its cultural editor for suggesting republishing of 3 Holocaust cartoons published in the Tehran daily on the 7th of February.

*The european union has evacuated its observers from the West Bank.
*5 European embassies have burnt.
*9 people have died in protests, and one NATO/ISAF base was attacked in Herat Afghanistan,
*followed by clashes between militants of the two Islamic mainstream traditions which has seen escalation of conflict in Islam between Sunni and Shia each with different attitudes to "iconoclastic depiction".
*one man has been arrested for wearing a "suicide bomber" belt during a protest in London.
*credible evidence emerged of an attack by Al Qaeda on a US city.
*credible evidence emerged of Iranian and Syrian agent provacatuers in the attacks on European legations in the Levant.

It is now only a matter of time "and sales push" before "Holocaust" cartoons appear in western media. Meanwhile 2 "Holocaust deniers" face the courts of Austria and Germany and lawyers talk of "not giving their agenda oxygen" !?

Tell denmark what you think.

121-122 St. Stephen's Green
Dublin 2
Ireland
Tel: 00 353 (1)475 6404
Fax: 00 353 (1) 478 4536
E-mail:dubamb@um.dk ...

by - Fri Feb 17, 2006 18:42

so says Austrian sociologist Christian Fleck, as the trial of the most prominent holocaust revisionist continues in Vienna. But Holocaust denial has taken on a new and worrying twist. The Iranian state has instructed its ambassadors to promote Holocaust denial as part of their wider "anti-zionist" policy, and the ambassadors are protected by diplomatic immunity.
So as the European press almost saw Holocaust denial cartoons published in the "name of free speech" now fascistic elements in Europe may trot out Holocaust denial simply by "reporting" the statements of diplomats who are themselves immune.
& unfortunately this phenomona is not confined to the European mainland, these fascists are logging on to indymedia lreland. The president of Ireland, mary Mc Aleese yesterday defended her statements in Jordon on the abhorrence felt by Irish society at the stoking of hatred on all sides in the last months and weeks as fascists on both sides one divide "Fundamentalist Islam & Iran / Western liberal free speech advocates" as being wholly consistent with both Irish governmental and European Union policy on "hate".
Fresh legislation is being prepared throughout the EU to tackle the promoters of "hate" and "holocaust denial", and indications are the Irish state will play its full part in that.

You may think this space is clear of fascists. IT is not.
You may think a fascist may not belong to a social minority, may not be a homosexual or transvestite or single mother. But they may. You may think a fascist may not infilitrate campaigns such as "the right to choose", but they can.

Identify the fascists. Remove them before the responsibility to deal with them is taken on by the state.

by update Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:15

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4730832.stm

by Duine Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:53

Admháil go raibh sé cearr! Nach ionrach an boc de stairí é? Seans go raibh ann don Oll-loisceadh! Is maith an fhirinne a chluinstin ó staraí

by Matt Tue Feb 21, 2006 01:50

I dont see how putting Irving in jail will solve anything or refute any of his arguments...anyone who is prepared to believe Irving's version of events, anyone who believes the holocaust wasn't really so bad after all is only likely to become more entrenched in their views when Irving is put away...
the holocaust happened but saying that the german people will bear the guilt for generations to come is foolhardy and shortsighted....the holocaust could have happened in any country under similar conditions..and many other countries have seen similar though not to that extent,genocide and widespread statesponsored murder....it was not caused by some fatal flaw in the German genepool and any germans who were not involved e.g. were born years after the holocaust are in no way implicated in it....
I say let him question the holocaust, the way he should be challenged is with well researched material showing how wrong he is not by locking him away....yes freedom of speech should be granted to those wishing to remove freedom of speech-whats the point in freedom of speech if you still aren't allowed talk about certain issues....a bigger cage is still a cage....
I find it slightly surreal that he is specifically charged with denying the holocaust...it's like being charged for saying the grass was blue yesterday....
Irving gives voice to a view held most definitely by many other people...and locking him up will only let someone else who likes the idea of guest trips to Ireland to stand in his place...
the evidence of the holocaust is there as a trip to auschwitz birkenau or any of the concentration camps scattered throughout eastern europe will tell you...reacting to Irving deliberate provocation only gives him what he wants...

by adriana Fri Feb 24, 2006 00:09

'' 5 million communists, homosexuals and other ethnic minorities were killed.''
even among them was plenty Jews.

by Reality - Green Party Member Fri Mar 07, 2008 18:51

This person, I don't even want to call him by his name, he deserves this title. Should not be let speak. He is making money from the suffering of others, Many times I have advocated the right to free speech but not in this case. This interview on the Late Late tonight serves no purpose other than to create sensationalism, draw in more viewers and give a platform to an insane, ranting, raving lunatic who's goal is to promote neo facism and race hatred throughout europe and the rest of the world. if the Austrians saw fit to lock him up, then so should we. RTE are a disgrace to the nation.