Decomissioning witness retracts Nazi comments

by Caobhin Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:28

He apologised for losing his temper - he did not retract anything.

by Curious Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:48

What does Empey and his ilk think was the nature of the Northern state upto direct rule? A Northern Ireland of Equals. Has there ever been an apology from any strand of unionism for the nature of the state? I didn't support the Provo war but I'm not blind to the nature of the northern state before 'the troubles' started.

by rooster Thu Oct 13, 2005 13:12

has lost all credibility on the World stage, I'm afraid he has shown in the heat of the moment his true feelings.

by Darragh Thu Oct 13, 2005 13:22

Northern nationalists were treated like scum by unionists, Fr. Reid was absolutely right in what he said about nazis.

by Curious Thu Oct 13, 2005 13:25

At least we can take solace in the fact that the members of the leading party of unionism in the North have never shown their true feeling - eh?
What was the nature of the Northern state before 'the troubles' rooster? Care to elucidate your own thoughts on this?

by fitzman Thu Oct 13, 2005 13:26

Fr Reid apologised for losing his temper. The other witness Rev Good defended Fr Reid stating "It was said in the context of a very heated moment within this meeting when some things were being said about him personally, about his church, about Clonard (Monastery). Allegations that were quite unfounded and unsubstantiated, which were very hurtful and dangerous, were being made. In the heat of that moment Fr Alec reacted in a way that I know from what he said to me later he regretted the way in which he put it.”

The people that were abusing Fr. Reid where Willie Frazer and his like. This man is a hate filled bigot that cannnot accept any of the other realities of the north or the troubles other than the IRA killed people. He purports to act for victims but, like the DUP, will share a platform with any loyalist murderer.

Fr Reid's comments are historically correct and shoud not be retracted - as the president was forced to retract hers. The history of the northern state should not be brushed under the carpet so as not to offend the unionist population. The same people that have never apologised for their treatment of the minority population.

by Righteous pragmatist Thu Oct 13, 2005 13:59

The IRA expects us to take word of lunatic who compares the unionists to the nazis that they have decommisioned their weapons!

by I am not a Nazi! Thu Oct 13, 2005 14:00

Of course Catholics/Nationalists in Northern Ireland were discrimnated against by the Unionist state and elite. That is an historical fact. And Fr. Reid is partially correct in saying that there would have been no IRA campaign without that oppression. But he is completely wrong to compare it to how the Nazis treated the Jews.
The comment from fitzman: "Fr Reid's comments are historically correct and shoud not be retracted - as the president was forced to retract hers. The history of the northern state should not be brushed under the carpet so as not to offend the unionist population."
This is an outrageous statement. I would like Fr. Reid and fitzman to inform us all of the locations of the concentration camps in which Northern Catholcis were gassed and executed?
What symbol were catholics forced to wear in order for them to be publicly identified and shunned and abused?
Neither I nor others from a Protestant background in the North are Nazis and such a statement is grossly offensive. British Imperialism aided and abetted by the Unionist elite were responsible for the oppression of Catholics, not all Protestants from the North and the remarks should be retracted.

by Noel Thu Oct 13, 2005 14:36

Surely the ravings of a bigotted priest does not disqualify him from being an independent observer?
You'll be claiming that IRA/Sinn Fein appointed him as an observer next!

What's that..........they did appoint him?

by fitzman Thu Oct 13, 2005 15:51

May I say first that I am glad to hear that you are not a nazi. Secondly, neither I or Fr. Reid made any referances to protestants, the referance was to unionists. You must have made that inference yourself. The thirdpoint is that Fr. Reid said that the unionist treatment of the catholic community was 'LIKE the Nazi treatment of the jews'. I will set out a few of the reasons why I agree:

- state (Stormont) sponsored and controlled murder gangs
- state police and semi-paramilitary militia used by the state to violently repress and control the minority population
- the exclusion of the minority population from jobs and housing forcing the population to live in poverty stricken ghettos.
- controlling the electoral system to remove any possibility of proper political representation

All of this based upon an underlying hatred of the minority population's race and culture.

Yes, you are correct there were definately no gas chambers or star of david patches. But behaviour 'LIKE the Nazi treatment of the jews' - Yes I think so .

by Caobhin Thu Oct 13, 2005 16:28

There were Dachau type concentration camps (Magillan, Maidstone, Long Kesh) where the political inmates were incarcerated without trial and brutailised.

No Stars of David? No need- the sneaky shits operated discrimination by checking surname, address and where an applicant went to school, to deny jobs, housing etc.

There are countless quotes from Loyalist politicians openly advocating discrimination and in one case incineration against Catholics. Anyone who expresses outrage at Fr. Reids crude, though heartfelt, observation is deliberately oblivious to the odious history of that fillthy little homeland.

by Barry Thu Oct 13, 2005 17:45

Of course northern catholics certainly are not the most oppressed people in the world . And no they werent put into gas chambers by the million .

But I think Fr Reids comparison is an apt one .

Heres what a leading unionist politician even in the 1970s wanted to do . And he came quite close to taking power . David Trimble was even his key advisor . And his vanguard party , with its own paramilitary wing with long black leather coats and motor cycle escorts were nazi like in appearance . Calls to "liquidate " the enemy , when youve basically defined the nationalist population as the enemy are indeed similar to nazis .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Craig

Defining someones ethnicity simply by their religious background is nazi like . The ruling unionist party was always controlled by the Orange order ,and just like the nazis you must be of pure protestant blood , not a convert , half breed or married to a sub human to be an orangeman . In the early 1990s senior DUP politician Sammy Wilson famously referred to catholic voters as "sub human animals" .

And of course we had the regular state sponsored pogroms and Kristalnachts . Catholic businesses and homes were put to the torch almost once a decade . The biggest state employer was quite proud of the fact that every last catholic had been cleansed - chased , beaten and shot out of their shipyard .Even in 1969 the mobs which burned the lower Falls , and went after Fr Reids monastery , were led by prominent politician such as the late Johnny McQuaid MP and the local police . Like the nazis too the state had its official paramiltary gangs in the pure protestant B Specials and C specials . Later we had the unofficial paramilitary gangs , membership of which was neither illegal or barred one from joining the UDR .

In the late 1960s my own parents recall the job adverts in papers and signs in shop windows which plainly stated " No Roman Catholics need apply " .

Just as Hitler based his appeal on the belief that German aryans were downtrodden , oppressed and under threat from the enemy within and without so too has unionism always justified its discrimination , hatred and murder . Just as Hitler dreamed of the glorious reich , so too does unionism glorify the racist British empire of history and immortalise their glorious role in it . Indeed it is the belief of racial superiority inherent in the British empire which is at the heart of unionism . Unsurprising that the British NF , C18 and BNP have always had a close affinity with loyalism and vice versa .

Just as Hitler annexed a weak czechslovakia without international outcry , so too was the north itself annexed to provide living space for unionists . Unfortunately it wasnt ethnically pure enough , hence the reasons thousands of catholics were burned from their homes and driven from their jobs when Britain and the unionists annexed the national territory .

Fr Reid is now the second very moderate but high profile voice from within the nationalist community to liken this treatment to nazism .
As for his chief critic ,the Markethill bigot Willie Frazer , just like neo nazis elsewhere in Europe its his followers and fellow travellers who are attacking Carnmoney cemetery even in broad daylight during the blessing of the graves . Its they who have openly threatened to desecrate the graves and even dig up the corpses . They declared their hatred in full view of television cameras . However unionist politicians believe although misguided ,this is an act of protest and not simply base hatred and savagery .

While the end product of Hitlers Nazism and the Orange state here was of course very different , the belief in ethnic superiority over their neighbours , the desire for total separation and the sheer pathological hatred of the sub humans and half breeds which is at the heart of unionism is too close for comfort .

Ill make a concession to those who are outraged at Fr Reids comments and acknowledge the key difference that the nazis have been defeated , unlike our ones .

by I am not a Nazi Thu Oct 13, 2005 17:51

fitzman says:
- state (Stormont) sponsored and controlled murder gangs.
- Incorrect Stormont didn't exist the state organisation of shoot to kill policies and collusion with loyalist paramilitaries etc was organised directly from London.

- state police and semi-paramilitary militia used by the state to violently repress and control the minority population.
- Correct however these same state forces where also to a far lesser extent used against loyalist paramiltaries and protestants.

- the exclusion of the minority population from jobs and housing forcing the population to live in poverty stricken ghettos.
- Correct under stormont, not correct under direct rule. However protestant working class people also have and continue to live in poverty because that is the nature of capitalism.

- controlling the electoral system to remove any possibility of proper political representation.
- Correct under stormont that there was gerrymandering however the voting system was also discriminatory against working class protestants as it favoured the rich and middle class property and business owners.

Caobhin says:
There were Dachau type concentration camps (Magillan, Maidstone, Long Kesh) where the political inmates were incarcerated without trial and brutailised.
- Incorrect - these were prisons in which people where interned without trial and also imprisoned on claims of paid informers but there were not concentration camps, I think you need to brush up on your history of the holocaust.


No Stars of David? No need- the sneaky shits operated discrimination by checking surname, address and where an applicant went to school, to deny jobs, housing etc.
- Correct but this is too sweeping a statement otherwise why even under the Orange State were the majority of workplaces in the North mixed?

There are countless quotes from Loyalist politicians openly advocating discrimination and in one case incineration against Catholics. Anyone who expresses outrage at Fr. Reids crude, though heartfelt, observation is deliberately oblivious to the odious history of that fillthy little homeland.
- I have no truck with any of views or actions of unionist or loyalist politicians passed or present but I think you need to remove your sectarian blinkers. To claim that what happened in the North was worse than the Nazis as you do is incredible and I would suggest that you would go away and learn about fascist Germany and what actually happened to the millions of Jews, socialists, gays, gypsies and disabled people under Nazi rule before you come out with this type of crap.

by I am not a Nazi Thu Oct 13, 2005 18:08

Barry writes: Just as Hitler annexed a weak czechslovakia without international outcry , so too was the north itself annexed to provide living space for unionists . Unfortunately it wasnt ethnically pure enough , hence the reasons thousands of catholics were burned from their homes and driven from their jobs when Britain and the unionists annexed the national territory .

History is obviously not a strong subject for sectarian bigots of either side!
The North was not annexed by Britain. When the ENGLISH from ENGLAND invaded and occupied Ireland Britain did not exist.
Unionism as a political ethos didn't exist when the ENGLISH from ENGLAND invaded and occupied Ireland as the Union did not exist.
People from Scotland who where moved into the north east of Ireland during the plantation were not Unionists (as Unionism didn't yet exist), neither were the majority of them repressors of catholics as the majority were not rich landlords but poor peasants and artisans.

I think that Indymedia is diffinitely a place in which people should express their opposition to Unionism and Loyalism as well as the sectarian politics of republicanism and nationalism. It is not a place were this type of sectarian and anti-prostestant bile should be allowed. And despite your protestations it is obvious that your comments apply to all northern prostestants.

by Barry Thu Oct 13, 2005 18:27

The annexation Im referring to was when the NI state was created . It was annexed by Britain with the direct support of unionists , both of whom most definitely existed at the time . Im not for one moment referring to the arrival of people from different countries on our shores through history . I certainly dont hold to any "pure blood" definition of Irish nationality .

by fitzman Thu Oct 13, 2005 18:33

You seem to think that there were no loyalist murders prior to 1969. Loyalist mobs were rampant in the North from the turn of the century (even before partition belfast was controlled by unionists) - the state (stormont) and its police and milita (b specials) were entirely complicit in their actions. The fact that some elemants of these forces did occasionally act against certain loyalists does not refute my point at all. Your statement that loyalists live in poverty also does not even address the issue of state sponsored sectarianism - ditto with the barring of acces to democratic representation. You have not answered any of the points raised. Are these actions by the unionists, while based upon a hatred of the minority populations's race and culture not 'like the Nazi's treatment of the jews.

"even under the Orange State were the majority of workplaces in the North mixed?" Up to know I thought you were in some way knowledgeable of the history of the north but that statement is totally taking the piss. I did not even get into the attitude of the Orange Order or the UUP and DUP statements in outright support of the murder of innocant civilians. So here is a good one below.

On the 29th May 1984 Belfast DUP councillor George Seawright said of Catholics "Taxpayers money would be better spent on an incinerator and burning the whole lot of them. The priests should be thrown in and burned as well"

Could have been spoken by Gorbles (sp ?) himself

by paddy savage(padraig sabhaois) - consistent life ethic(inc animals) Thu Oct 13, 2005 19:07 achorusline19 at hotmail dot com

No the treatment of catholics wasnt as bad as the treatment of the jews by the nazis,but it sure as fucking well had many similarities and the catholic community were trampled on,and forbidden rights,all under the rule of parliament!!Wouldnt doubt it for a minute.I have friends of all faiths and no faiths,buddhists,hindus,catholic,protestant,new agers,raeilians,so i am not biased in any way against protestants,they dont accept the pope as christs ambassodor on earth(neither do i and im a new age catholic)and i wouldnt say jesus does either)lol!!,but look who proclaim to follow jesus,Condoleeza rice(a calvinist)dubya(a methodist)all obsessed with war,domination,numerology,imperialism)and yes,i mean is their a link here?Obviously,not all protestants behave in such manners,i dont think the earth would exist if they did,lol,and yes,im aware of the times of the inquisitions!!And just look at the conter "protesters" at the recent Belfast gay pride march,all protestant congregations,"born againers",holding signs about sodomites and ;save ulster from sodomy"which is a campaign from the "free"presbyterian church to rid ulster of "sodomites",it was well televised with parade participants apparently upsetting a leading loyalist paramilitary man by calling him an"evil religious fundamentalist murderer"which he is.Love Diversity,in all aspects and areas of your life.
love and light(and techno) homo paddy

by Mark C Thu Oct 13, 2005 19:21

"It was said in the context of a very heated moment within this meeting when some things were being said about him personally, about his church, about Clonard (Monastery). Allegations that were quite unfounded and unsubstantiated, which were very hurtful and dangerous, were being made. In the heat of that moment Fr Alec reacted in a way that I know from what he said to me later he regretted the way in which he put it"

Did those who made these comments about Fr Reid apologise? Were they asked to apologise?

by Barry Thu Oct 13, 2005 19:55

To a fenian priest !!! Are you on drugs ? And especially now the media are denouncing father Reid , sure he thinks its christmas .

Wee Willy Frazer is also a key organiser of the LOVEULSTER camapign , which is a front for the recent loyalist protests which have included the attacks on Carnmoney cemetery sunday ( with threats to defecate on Catholic graves and dig up corpses) and the recent rioting and gun and bomb attacks on the cops and Brits .

Wee Willy Frazer also recently announced that loyalist paramilitaries of all persuasions are more than welcome at the massive LOVEULSTER rally , and that the cops better keep their distance from it if they know whats good for them . However the media are making a bigger hoo haa about Reid calling bigots like that Nazis .

You see Willy Frazer is a UDR "victims" spokesman , who says the IRA were ethnically cleansing protestants and still are .

Heres what wee Markethill Willys mates on his LOVEULSTER website think of Alec Reid .
Read it and weep .

http://www.loveulster.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1469

Im not a big fan of Fr Reid meself but a saint would blow his top after being taunted by these sort of white trash . And thats what Willy Frazer is . By the way Markethill is one of the most bigotted areas in the north where theyd happily cut a catholics throat . Willys a local hero .

by I am not a Nazi Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:34

This is extracts from what Fr.Reid said:

Fr Reid said: "I don't want to be hurtful here, but I'm going to be straight. The nationalist community was persecuted for up to 60 years by the unionist community, for which the unionist community should be thoroughly ashamed.


It was then that Fr Reid said: "The reality is that the nationalist community of Northern Ireland were treated almost like animals by the unionist community."

Fr Reid continued: "They were treated like the Nazis treated the Jews. When the . . . you see you won't listen to the truth. You come from a community that should be absolutely ashamed of itself for the way it conducted politics in Northern Ireland for 60 years. You are in the same category as the Nazis as far as I'm concerned." At this point, Mr Frazer left the meeting, ignoring calls for him to return.

He wasn't talking about Unionist politicians he was clearly talking about Protestants, that is what is meant in the north by the phrase unionist community the same way that nationalist community refers to catholics.

by Caobhin Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:46

I am well aware of the victims of the Holocaust (insult removed -ed) and I did not claim;

"....that what happened in the North was worse than the Nazis as you do is incredible " -

This is a blatant lie or evidence of your complete thickness - if you actually read what I wrote you would see that I said that a more accurate description for the sectarian state would be fascist as opposed to "worse than the Nazis".

I would suggest you read before you respond in future.

by TV viewer Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:59

Saw it on the news last night and it changed my mind as to what I had read. Frazer is a myopic bigot (not withstanding his family history). He will NEVER accept the conditions in the North before the CRM.
Reid might have over egged the pudding but he did it under fierce provocation. He apologised but I somehow doubt we will ever see an apology from the unionist community or any acknowledgment of the nature of the northern state before the CRM.

by fitman Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:10

C'mon guys this is a discussion so lets not let is degenerate into the type of shit that is on that 'Love Ulster' page. The link was helpfully provided by 'Barry'

To I am not a Nazi - if you read the full statement I find it hard to believe that you can not agree with Fr. Reid (as you are abvioulsy and intellegent and non sectarian individual). He was talking to Willie Frazer. I would very much connect Willie Frazer with the unionist community even though he is not a politician. The unionist community includes all the people that vote unionist - and all those people that vote for the fascist bastards that ran the state for 60 years are fully responsible and should be ashamed of themselves. Every protestant and catholic and other that voted for them is guilty. I do not blame anyone for anything on the basis of their religion - that is the attitude of the DUP.

by rooster Sun Oct 16, 2005 03:12

What was the nature of the Northern state before 'the troubles' rooster? Care to elucidate your own thoughts on this?

-well, nationalists were opposed to the setting up of the NI state and so were considered to be disloyal as they would try to sabotage the state at any opportunity, this was reinforced by the abstentionist polcies of their leaders which meant that unionists were forced to take the full burden of political power.

Now, no-one can deny that nationalists were treated badly during this time but to compare their treatment to the way nazis treated the jews is a complete joke, tell me mr. curious, where were the gas chambers, concentration camps, liquidation policies, cattle trucks, the fact that the Stormont government had complete control and could have implemented these policies if they wished is a testament to their integrity and commitment to humanity.

by Major Ayeswatter Sun Oct 16, 2005 19:37 ayeswatter at hotmail dot com

While the Britsh and Unionists actually fought the Nazis and their evil ways eire did nothing, except that is to officially express their regret at the death of Herr Hitler to the German embassy. Examine the tactics of the IRA just one of many cases in point: abducting and murdering a woman (Jean McConnell) for showing compassion to a dying soldier. Rebublicans without doubt have acted like and committed atrocities akin to the Nazis. How dare any rebublican call Unionists Nazis. You are the Nazis and well you know it.

by Jamesy... Sun Oct 16, 2005 19:41

We're well aware of what Fr Reid said (we've seen enough 'extracts' over the last few days), but I think you're missing the point here. Fr Reid was right in what he was thinking, but probably wrong in saying what he said, but can you really compare it to anything ian paisley has said?

"Catholic homes caught fire because they were loaded with petrol bombs; Catholic churches were attacked and burned because they were arsenals and priests handed out sub-machine guns to parishioners" Ian Paisley DUP Leader, 1968

"If the British government force us down the road to a united Ireland we will fight to the death...This could come to hand to hand fighting in every street in Northern Ireland. We are on the verge of civil war...We are asking people to be ready for the worst and I will lead them." Ian Paisley 1985 Ulster Clubs Rally Larne

What about John Taylor?

"There is in particular amongst the Catholic community now, increasing fear of paramilitary activities. And in a perverse way, this is something which may be helpful because they are now beginning to appreciate more clearly the fear that has existed within the Protestant community for the past 20 years." John Taylor UUP

"We should make it clear that force means death and fighting, and whoever gets in our way, whether Republicans or those sent by the British government, there would be killings," John Taylor UUP, Tobermore, October 1972

...and we could include Seawright, Frazier himself, Dawson Baile etc etc.

It's all very simple - a 78 year old man was outraged at the unjust criticism levelled at himself, his friend Harold Good & the Church Fr Reid represents - and quite simply - he exploded, reminding us all, and the rest of the world what we all know about Unionism. The facts are there. History hasn't, and never will look favourably on the politics on protestant people untill they learn that this 'wee' country isn't just theirs anymore.

p.s. I read the other day that you lot are even too 'hardline' for the KKK. Made me laugh that one.

by Jamesy. Sun Oct 16, 2005 19:55

While the Britsh and Unionists actually fought the Nazis and their evil ways eire did nothing, except that is to officially express their regret at the death of Herr Hitler to the German embassy.

-There were many Irishmen who went to fight against Hitler in both World wars, and against Franco in the Spanish Civil war. The Country was officially neutral and I can see no problem in that. Did you know that the Larne gunrunning in 1913 was German guns. What side were they on? Eh? Confused huns lol...

Examine the tactics of the IRA just one of many cases in point: abducting and murdering a woman (Jean McConnell) for showing compassion to a dying soldier.

-Not that i agree with her death, but Jean McConville was a tout just like Doris Day last week. Here, how many innocent Protestants have been murdered by Loyalists within the last few years? How many kids did Adair and Billy 'Black Taxi' Wright murder? How many kids have the british Army killed in Ireland, India, Iraq etc etc. Are we going to go tit for tat here? What about Fr Reids compassion to 2 dying soldiers - did you know about that? Thought not.

Rebublicans without doubt have acted like and committed atrocities akin to the Nazis. How dare any rebublican call Unionists Nazis. You are the Nazis and well you know it.

-Really, look at that last statement and laugh at yourself you stupid numpty. We all know that any Republican murder can be matched by a Protestant terrorist murder, especially when we include the Shankill Butchers, eh? What about Thomas Devlin?

- You can't even spell Republican you gimp.

http://www.irlandinit-hd.de/sub_themen/brown.htm

by RobbieS Mon Oct 17, 2005 01:31 Ireland

Anywhere else and they'd be called extreme-right, neo-fascists (or some other synonym with the same meaning).

Today on BBC Radio Ulster at 1:25 pm., David Vance once of the UKUP/UKU (don't know who he's with now), said in a panel discussion:

"I have nothing but contempt for the Civil Rights movement: it has done nothing but bad for this society".

Nigel Dodds called Fr. Reid's comments “racist”[?].

April 29th, 2003, Ian Paisley said of ‘that strange character from Dublin’ Brian Cowen, that there was a ‘reason his lips were so thick …If he wants to use his lips to better effect, he should do it somewhere else and do it with people of similar physical looks."

Paisley had set up the Protestant Unionist Party in 1964 (a bastion of inclusivity).

other telling comments.
Basil Brooke, 1934: exhorted "those people who are loyalists not to employ Roman Catholics, 99% of whom are disloyal".

1934 a great year for free expression in the 6 counties, 'cos also that year, "Lord Craigavon" says:
"I am an orangeman first and a protestant and a member of parliament afterwards . . . All l boast is that we have a protestant parliament and a protestant state"

The Orange Order have more in common with the racist notions of the Orange Free State and they both have William as a hero.

Niall Stanage, writing in the Guardian on Dec 18th 2002, wrote of the 50 years of one-party rule at Stormont:

"Every branch of the state was cankered. At the beginning of the 1960s, Northern Ireland's civil service was 94% Protestant. By the start of the Troubles a decade later, 39 out of 44 members of the Northern Ireland judiciary were Protestant. Council houses were routinely allocated to Protestants over Catholics across the north. Unionist rule also gave Northern Ireland the B Specials - ostensibly an auxiliary police force, in truth a Protestant militia - and the flagrant rigging of electoral boundaries. Gerrymandering reached its nadir in Derry, where 9,000 Protestant voters were represented by 12 city councillors, while 14,000 Catholic voters could elect only eight. The crunch came when a civil rights movement sprang up to challenge these wrongs. Eminently reasonable demands for change precipitated an existential crisis for the state. Security forces were deployed at the behest of the unionist establishment to beat civil rights marchers off the streets".

This is akin to the apartheid of the South African National Party, of of the AWB led by Eugene Terra-Blanche.

March 2002, David Trimble talking about the 26 Counties: "pathetic, sectarian, mono-ethnic, mono-cultural State".

Fellow-Irishmen, look to your history and we will forgive your shame.

by Saor Uladh Mon Oct 17, 2005 02:20

The attitude and conduct of Unionism towards Irish nationalists, north and south, is essentially one of racism.
And now that after 30 years of futile amed republcan struggle, Unionism, under the Good Friday Agreement, has strengthened its basic political aim(continued Union with Britain) its unlikely that it will decommission this racist mindset from which it derives its political identity.
Thus the Good Friday Agreement because it strengthens the Union with Britain reinforces Unionist racist bigotry. This is a dilemma which neither Sinn Fein nor Fianna Fail can deal with. ( Forget FG and Labour)

by rooster Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:10

Perhaps Fr Reid should make a study of Nazism and reflect on the proximity which his own Church had with that murderous system.

Some examples which he might wish to reflect upon are:

Among senior Nazis the only one not brought up in a Roman Catholic home was von Ribbontrop.

The National Socialist Party only came to power in Germany with the support of a small Roman Catholic party, which formed a coalition with Hitler on the basis of their shared faith.

The links between the Roman Church and the Nazi Party in Germany and Mussolini are an interesting study and the late Pope had cause to apologise to world Jewry for the support given to both these regimes.

The present Pope was one of Hilter's troops.

Such points should be studied, not to condemn our Roman Catholic neighbours as Nazis but to show that those who condemn others with such a slur are aware of the plank in their own eye.

Fr Reid's assertion that the IRA are not involved in criminality; that it is not responsible for the Northern Bank raid and that he believes all that the IRA say in relation to criminality, shows that he does not bring objectivity or critical analysis to the situation.

by RobbieS Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:41

That is precisely the nub of it. Protestant/Catholic is not a religious distinction like anywhere else, so much as a badge of superior/inferior. Anyone who is not a Protestant, might as well be a Catholic, be they Jew, aetheist, Muslim or whatever.

I am an aetheist, like most republicans, I suspect. I don't have much time for Fr. Reid's religion, but I equally refused to be tagged with his religious marker by the supremicist notions of the herrenvolk.

My partner is English, raised as CoE: she thinks that what passes for Protestantism in the north is madness.

Protestantism in Ulster, ulike anywhere else, is less a religion than a badge of superiority. The Orange Order is a specifically Irish institution, though it has chapters in Scotland and perhaps, Liverpool.

The Battle of the Boyne was the last spasm in the Thirty Years War (Europe-wide), but the ruling mindset has changed little in the intervening 300 odd years.

In an increasingly secular world; if one takes away the culture of domination, there is nothing left to Unionism. Unite with us against the corporates!

Equality for all and an end to religion. That would be more like a Glorious Revolution, and didn't many Irish Protestants know it well in 1798.

by IT Tue Oct 18, 2005 09:44

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/opinion/2005/1018/1470521035OP18FINTAN.html

by fr. joe Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:00

did yis see the news this morning? apparently the old reid chap apolgised to the nazis for comparing them to unionists.

by Barry Tue Oct 18, 2005 17:32

Nazis are people who like to dress up in black clothes that go about and tell people what to do all the time !!

by Major Ayeswatter Thu Oct 20, 2005 13:13 majorayeswatter at hotmail dot com

-There were many Irishmen who went to fight against Hitler in both World wars, and against Franco in the Spanish Civil war. The Country was officially neutral and I can see no problem in that. Did you know that the Larne gunrunning in 1913 was German guns. What side were they on? Eh? Confused huns lol...

Confused? You are! Hitler was not responsible for the First World War and Nazis did not exist in 1913. Too immersed in Irish history to know your facts?
Those Irishmen who did fight against Germany were called and treat as traitors. Get off the fence, are you saying it was right to fight the horrors of Nazism or remain neutral? Remaining neutral - If you can see no problem with that then I am glad you are no friend or ally of mine - 20 million Russians killed and 6 million Jews shame on you. By the way it should be “were” not was in: in 1913 was German guns

Not that i agree with her death, but Jean McConville was a tout just like Doris Day last week. Here, how many innocent Protestants have been murdered by Loyalists within the last few years? How many kids did Adair and Billy 'Black Taxi' Wright murder? How many kids have the british Army killed in Ireland, India, Iraq etc etc. Are we going to go tit for tat here? What about Fr Reids compassion to 2 dying soldiers - did you know about that? Thought not.

Here we have a case of defending the indefensible “a tout” - prove it you ignorant person. I suspect you would blindly defend anything the IRA did. By the way it should be a capital I in: Not that i agree also Fr Reids should have an apostrophe.

-Really, look at that last statement and laugh at yourself you stupid numpty. We all know that any Republican murder can be matched by a Protestant terrorist murder, especially when we include the Shankill Butchers, eh? What about Thomas Devlin?

- You can't even spell Republican you gimp.

I see I have obviously hit the nail on the head here! You are reduced to name calling in the absence of a reasoned argument, why not go the whole hog and call me a Nazi because I don’t agree with your warped views and bigoted opinions.

Ireland is slowly moving on and some people are committed to reconciliation take my advice stop this childish name-calling and try to see things from the other persons view. You may surprise yourself and become a better person for doing so. Who knows you might even become a decent human being.

by rooster Thu Oct 20, 2005 14:03

oh come on barry, I think they did a little more things than that, I'm sure that the Nuremberg trials were not just about germans being a little "bossy"!!

by ede - Saor Eíre Ógra Shinnféin Fri Oct 21, 2005 13:10 eiresaoirse32 at yahoo dot com monaghan 676676

Unionism was set up to overthrow other nations such as ours, and hitlers nazieism was set up to overthrow other countries such as poland ,same story little difference there was no famine remember but lets not let them rise again and send there fat controller back to england and shut all the west brit lackie slaves up in the 26 up the Republic.
lizzie winzer the german nazie brit will never set foot in this lovely land and the union jackeens shall no longer be slaves we shall free you Éire Amach

by keharflyn Wed Apr 19, 2006 15:06 westmeathann at hotmail dot co dot uk n/A N/A

Will we ever have peace if we rehash the past? People of all faiths or no faith can share in equal jobs, housing, government, and decent living standards. The ordinary folks have always been conned by the wealthy and that's all its ever been about, take the blinkers off, relax and live!

by Billy Williamson Wed Apr 19, 2006 17:54

Fr Reid should know all about Nazism as the Catholic Church supported Europen Fascism all the way - whether blessing Mussolinis contingent going to support Franco or actually running Slovakia for the Nazis. A leaf through "Hitlers Pope" would maybe put some colours in his paintbox

by Caobhin Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:17

The Catholic Church has always sided with power be it fascist or British imperialist. In Ireland they condemned the 1798 rebels, the Fenians, trade unionists, republicans and anyone else who sought to change the status quo on earth as opposed to waiting for some heavenly reward.

It's convenient for you to forget he pope also sided with your crowd after the battle of the Boyne, Billy, so put a few new colors in your own monochrome paintbox.

by Billy Williamson Thu Apr 20, 2006 18:39

If the Catholic Church always got behind those in power why did it support the rise of Mussolini's fascists against the Conservatives and likewise in Germany. Read Hitler°s Pope paddy Boy.

by Caobhin Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:53

I have no time for the Catholic Church nor for sectarian spinning - are you saying the fascists/nazis were underdogs when the Catholic Church pallied up to them? -ever hear of the Concordiat? - what year? Ever hear of Communism? Work it out.

PS Your Brit masters weren't too averse to chumming up with the Nazis -Munich 1938?

Read history yourself sammyboy

by Freedomforall Sat Apr 22, 2006 20:05 westmeathann at hotmail dot co dot uk

C'mon you Royalists, your mob was buying German guns for your terrorists prior to going to fight them for the british crown in both wars. Stop the crap and just do what you should have done since 1921 practice equal rights for all.