Basra British Jail Break Iraqi Sovreignty

by Hilaal Tue Sep 20, 2005 00:40

Two British terrorists shot dead an Iraqi policeman this morning in Basra when asked to stop at a checkpoint.

They were in arab disguise with light beards, travelling in a civilian car.

They were carrying high explsives rigged to explode . These are some of the terrorists that have been planting bombs at Shiite mosques and other targets.

Crowds reacted to British army attempts to free the Intelligence terrorists by burning at least two tanks but later the Brits returned to break down the walls of the jail where the two men were being questioned by an Iraqi judge.

Britain could not risq these men telling the truth about who the real terrorists in Iraq are.

Cptured British Intelligence Terrorist

Captured British Intelligence Terrorist

British Tank Burned by Iraqi civilians

Scumbag British Soldiers Burns As Crowd Wait to Render Him

by Barry Tue Sep 20, 2005 01:00

I bet these undercover killers would have preferred to have been caught by the garda , who probably would only have made them tea . It seems however that as expected , the Brits are at the same dirty antics over there that they perfected both sides of the border here .

Al Jazeera are covering it here .
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9E60DCBA-3470-4FF5-AA15-8000CCF163E9.htm

At least some elements of the puppet Iraqi establishment seem to have more respect for their sovereignty than homegrown free state variety . It seems also that with the discovery of explosives on these boyos theres a lot more going on in Iraq than meets the eye . Just like here .

And just like here Britain has no concept of the sovereignty of any nation unable to successfully defend itself militarily .

by flamin nora Tue Sep 20, 2005 01:13

Been a while since i saw any of those murdering scumbags in flames .
Not surprised to hear that British undercover soldiers were caught with a primed bomb just as the sectarian divisions in Iraq seem to reaching fever pitch . Maybe now the apologists for British murder o9n this site will care to offer an explanation of what these guys were up to . Suppose it was just a few bad apples again , eh ?

by kintama Tue Sep 20, 2005 01:40

Oh dear a bit of a difference of opinion. MOD sources say 'our chaps' release was negotiated. The Governor of Basra disagrees saying the 'negotiations' were 'a barbaric act of aggression'. Official Iraqi sources are quoted as saying that British tanks stormed the jail.
It would seem that somebody is telling lies and funny enough some Iraqi civilians appear to have involuntarily negotiated a date with Allah during the negotiations. On the balance of probabilities, taking account of Tony Blairs sterling record of truthfulness, you have to assume that negotiations might be stretching it a bit. Still who's counting when it comes to a few dead natives of Iraq. One can only hope that Lee Clegg is'nt one of the freed Basra Two.

by Baffled Tue Sep 20, 2005 08:54

What a lovely bunch of open-minded contributors!!!!!!!!!

by jayzhus Tue Sep 20, 2005 08:57

as the 3rd largest party and the one that got 23% of the 5/5/2005 election share its central to their agenda, though many only think of the much smaller Respect party in this regard.
The Liberal Democrats are currently holding their annual conference in Blackpool, and yesterday whilst this "obvious breakdown" in the "cosy co-operative situation in Basra where the British army are helping locals build democracy and aren't at all like the yankee" was happening, they were listening to their foreign affairs man make a speech-
at link:-

by fancy that Tue Sep 20, 2005 09:21

has now been cancelled. As you will have noticed the USA and UK and Italy regularly hint at troop reduction and withdrawl in comments but never never "officially". In the last 14 days hints were made that the troops would be moved to Afghanistan, well thats not happening now.
What is curious about all this, is the "chain of command", it does seem very obvious that a secret military operation overlapped with the normal deployment, and the end effect psychologicaly is to stoke war.

Iraqi police officers were killed on duty.
On whose authority?
Iraqi children were rioting yesterday, and they were shot at.
On whose authority?
The Iraq state is illegally occupied.... o.w.a?
________________________________________
meanwhile here's this morning's ribbids:
-
Basra governor, Mohammed al-Waili, said British soldiers used more than 10 tanks and helicopters to break down the walls and free the pair, thought to be special forces officers.

He said they had been arrested for allegedly shooting dead a local policeman and wounding another.

On Tuesday, a Ministry of Defence spokesman said the pair were actually discovered at a house in the city after troops broke into the prison to look for them.

Iraqi authorities were thought to have ordered their release but when it did not happen the forces took action.

"Two British soldiers were detained and taken to an Iraqi police station," he said.

"We then started negotiating with the Iraqi authorities for their release. We understand that the authorities ordered their release.

"Unfortunately they weren't released and we became concerned for their safety and as a result a Warrior infantry fighting vehicle broke down the perimeter wall in one place.

"Our guys went in there and searched it from top to bottom in order to go and recover our two soldiers who had been detained. They weren't there unfortunately but we did obtain intelligence that pointed to where they were.

"We then launched another operations to recover them, from a house in Basra."
source - telegraph

by Noel Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:14

'They were carrying high explsives rigged to explode'

Funnily enough - I couldn't find any report which mentioned this.
Although that doesn't seem to matter too much to the other barstool Jihadi cheerleaders.

It wouldn't be Hilaal making up stories by any chance?
Surely there's enough of his mates killing innocents with suicide bombs, without inventing some more?

by oh dear Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:18

was.... the Iraqi ministry.
Now why would they make that up and tell the Chinese?

by Rob Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:27

Ah yes the impartial chinese media.....

by deputy dog Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:32

- the war in iraq -
The reports stated two British commando special forces dressed as Iraqis have been cought by the Iraqis after they were found shooting and killing local policemen. And the Iraqis put them in jail.
The BBC reported somthing VERY vague about an attack on the Basra jail but it caught my attention, so I switched to the Australian TV channels to find more info:

The reports stated two British commando special forces dressed as Iraqis have been cought by the Iraqis after they were found shooting and killing local policemen. And the Iraqis put them in jail.

The British army then, came with tanks, destroyed the jail and freed the two british commandos. In the process, all the Iraqi prisoners in the jail ran away to freedom.

Riots started, and I saw British tanks engulfed with molotov coktails and British soldiers runing out of thier tanks, some were on fire.

This report give crediblity to the 'conspiracy theorists' who have long claimed many terrorist acts in Iraq are, in fact, being initiated and carried out by US, British and Israeli forces.

The TRUTH is the British had to either rescue or kill these two commandos in order to keep these operations secret. Fortunately for the two Brits, they were saved.

The British Commander of the forces involved gave such idiotic excuses I won't even bother to report them to you. The followng just moved on the net...


Iraqi Prison Stormed By British Tanks And Helicopters

British forces in tanks and helicopters stormed an Iraqi jail tonight to rescue two service personnel who were arrested after allegedly shooting dead a local policeman and wounding another, the governor of Basra said.

The two men had been taken to the Basra jail after violence erupted earlier today in the southern Iraqi city.

Photographs of the two - thought to be special forces officers - were taken and released to the media, showing them bandaged and bloody.

British troops had arrived at the police station where the two men were being held and encircled the building.

They were attacked by demonstrators with rocks and petrol bombs.

One soldier was seen engulfed by flames tumbling from his tank and gunfire was exchanged between the two sides, leaving three soldiers injured and two civilians dead.

Later, more than 10 tanks and helicopters broke down the walls of the jail in the rescue operation to release the two arrested servicemen.

It was also reported that 150 Iraqi prisoners escaped in what Mohammed al-Waili, the governor of Basra, described as a 'barbaric, savage and irresponsible' act.

The MoD refused to comment after officials said that the two men were undercover officers dressed as Arabs.

The spokesman said: "We can confirm that the two military personnel have been released."

Mr al-Waili said: "A British force of more than 10 tanks backed by helicopters attacked the central jail and destroyed it. This is an irresponsible act."

He said the British force had spirited the prisoners away to an unknown location.

http://www.rense.com/general67/cmndo.htm

by jordan thornton Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:45

- british state terrorism in iraq -
Just as the Downing Street Minutes proved that Bush/Bliar were LYING in order to fiegn justification for an act of naked aggression they knew to be illegal, the leaked "Iraq: Options Paper" proves that the UK/US were planning to incite Civil War, in order to take the heat off of the Occupiers, and allow them to plunder Iraq while the People killed themselves. If you'll study the media's coverage over the past few weeks, you'll note that they have served as a willing partner.
Iraqi Police Disrupt UK False Flag
Jordan Thornton | 20.09.2005 06:52 | Repression

Just as the Downing Street Minutes proved that Bush/Bliar were LYING in order to fiegn justification for an act of naked aggression they knew to be illegal, the leaked "Iraq: Options Paper" proves that the UK/US were planning to incite Civil War, in order to take the heat off of the Occupiers, and allow them to plunder Iraq while the People killed themselves. If you'll study the media's coverage over the past few weeks, you'll note that they have served as a willing partner.

Today's developements were rather interesting, given reports of US/UK troops attempting to incite Civil War within the country, and reports from Iraqis of them carrying out False Flags to this end.

Two British "undercover" soldiers, dressed as Arabs, fire on the Iraqi police. Had they not been caught, the media would have been reporting on yet another "insurgent" bombing, worse, a Sunni attack on Shia, etc. (as is the current pattern) or at the very least, an "insurgent" attack on the police.

Then, rather than risk these operatives disclosing their intent through questioning by Iraqi police, the Brits break them out of jail with tanks, which Basra officials called "a barbaric act of aggression", inciting a riot which left two Iraqi civilians dead.

I sincerely hope the media will have the courage to follow up on the circumstances of the UK operation which would require soldiers to pose as Arabs, and drive a civilian truck filled with explosives through a crowded city.

In light of this new developement, I just wanted to include the letter I sent two days ago to two Canadian networks about this very issue. I have posted this on several websites throughout Canada, including the Independent Media Network, simply so that they cannot claim ignorance of the issue in the future.

I hope they will give this matter the attention it deserves, as responsible journalists would, but I'm not hgolding my breath.

Here is a copy of my last correspondence:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I realize that you've limited your news resources due to the lockout, but I've found your recent news coming out of Iraq rather disturbing, as I believe it paints a distorted picture of the situation, furthering the interests of those who started this illegal war.

What bothers me the most, as a fellow journalist, is that when you repeat the unsubstantiated allegations of the Bush Administration about al Zarqawi and "Al Qaeda", you no longer preface this with "the Bush Administration claims" or "US officials allege", which is the proper thing to do.

I thought that the exposure of some of the more serious LIES emanating from these people would have been enough to teach you that.

Regardless of who is responsible for the most recent attacks (all indications still suggest the Iraqi Resistance, what you now refer to as "the insurgency", for some still-unexplained reason, and many reports suggest the Occupiers themselves ...), it has long been known that the US/UK/Israel would try to foment Civil War within the country, pursuing that old Colonial Trick of Divide & Conquer.

Even leaked documents, which accompanied the Downing Street Minutes (the Documentary Evidence of the WMD Lies, which nobody is pursuing, unfortunately), such as

******* "Iraq: Options Paper", written by the UK Overseas & Defense Secretariat Cabinet Office, a full year before the war began, states directly that "'Divide & Rule' is easy", then details how existing ethnic tensions can be manipulated into such a conflict, thus taking the heat off of the foreign occupiers ******

, who violated International Law and the UN Charter in order to invade the country.

Perhaps if you plan to continue down this road, you could ask to see some actual evidence that this one-legged "Terrorist Mastermind" (and CIA asset, whose death in Afghanistan in 2002 the Bush Admin. claimed as a "victory in the War on Terror") is actually in Iraq, and if not, perhaps you can apply the standard "alleged" to these empty claims.

Considering the current state of the media, I would think you would be going above and beyond to protect your credibility and reputation.

Here is an article about this situation, both from Le Monde, and a BabelFish translation of the same. Perhaps you would consider pursuing the matter.

Sincerely,

Jordan Thornton

"Abou Moussab Al-Zarkaoui est mort. Son nom est utilisé par les occupants pour rester en Irak"
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-689730, 0.html

"Abou Moussab Al-Zarkaoui died. Its name is used by the occupants to remain in Iraq "
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------

Iraqi police detain two British soldiers in Basra
"Two persons wearing Arab uniforms opened fire at a police station in Basra. A police patrol followed the attackers and captured them to discover they were two British soldiers," an Interior Ministry source told Xinhua.

The two soldiers were using a civilian car packed with explosives, the source said.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-09/19/conte nt_3514065.htm

Two Britons held in Iraq for firing at police
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?t ype=topNews&storyID=2005-09-19T164541Z_01_YUE94652 9_RTRUKOC_0_UK-IRAQ-BRITONS.xml

UK soldiers 'storm' Basra prison
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4262336.stm

British tanks smash Iraqi jail to free UK soldiers
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?t ype=topNews&storyID=2005-09-19T201444Z_01_YUE94652 9_RTRUKOC_0_UK-IRAQ-BRITONS.xml

UK TROOPS ON HIGH ALERT
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-134420 83,00.html

Meltdown in Basra
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/index.php?id=P2377
Jordan Thornton
e-mail: pilgrim112@hotmail.com

by Marianne Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:55

So for much for convincing the locals that they're trying to restore law and order and democracy...

by Barry Tue Sep 20, 2005 22:42

They managed to convince the majority of Irish people theyre only here to uphold law and order , despite blowing hell out of Dublin Monagahan and stoking sectarian tensions here with similar undercover operations , identical in fact .

Remember these undercover army killers rule the roost in a large corner of this island and have a great deal of influence in the rest of it , hence no investigations by the free state into the murders of its citizens .

From Iraq to Ireland its the same dirty British game .

by Al Wed Sep 21, 2005 03:46

Barry,
Stop stating the same tired old crap. The British didnt kill police officers here, your beloved IRA did.

And you still havent proven the British were responsible for setting or planting bombs in the Republic.

You want us to attack and shoot British soldiers but moan when an IRA man gets a black eye.

by Ned Garvey (British Agent) Wed Sep 21, 2005 05:52

Al , youre own garda crap is getting more than tiresome , as are your right wing anglophile postings. Loyalists clearly didnt possess the bomb making capability to construct those car bombs and still dont . So who did it in your opinion ? Martians ?

Your police force has clearly engaged in a cover up for their British army buddies on this mass murder ( and other terrorist murders) for decades. Your force was responsible for the files disappearing from Garda HQ as well 2 years ago .

I presume you believe the families of those killed should stop spouting their crap as well ?

It appears that unlike An Garda Siochana the Basra authorities were actually going to question undercover British soldiers as to why they were transporting a bomb while dressed as arabs and why they opened fire to evade arrest if their activites were lawful .
This type of thing happened north and south of the border and your force turned a blind eye and even harassed the relatives of murdered Irish citizens , as happened in the Dublin Monaghan case .

Unsurprising then youve become so touchy every time Barry mentions that the British were responsible for murders on the streets of Dublin . Most of Ireland seems to believe it , the relatives of those killed certainly believe it yet you go mad when the British army are accused of it ?

Interesting . Maybe you could tell us why Ned Garvey was sacked from the guards sometime ?

by Al Wed Sep 21, 2005 18:46

Ned,
The difference is I dont make comments based on crap information. I use proof something which neither yourself or Barry will be able to provide concerning British soldiers killing Irish citizens in the Republic.

Now, provide proof that this has and does happen. I accept that information was passed on from the British army, I accept the RUC did there best to fuck up the investigation but what I dont accept (along with every respected author and expert) is that it was a british soldier that planted the bomb and the Gardai deliberately covered it up. Please explain why we would do that? Provide real proof if you want me to change my opinion.

I will keep commenting as long as you and Barry keep shouting anti-Garda slogans.

Now remind me, who has shot more Gardai? The British or the IRA?

by Barry Wed Sep 21, 2005 19:21

Dead wrong again Al , heres Don Mullans conclusion..

http://www.irishresistancebooks.com/reviews/mullan.htm

Lets hear you rubbish him , should be a good laugh .

Serving British soldiers carried out those attacks on the orders of British army intelligence ..

by Brian Thu Sep 22, 2005 05:20

I never came across this reference before but it seems very interesting on Dublin Monaghan:
http://republican-news.org/archive/2001/May24/24dubm.html

I totally agree with Barry that Irish people are depressingly gullible when it comes to stuff like this. When you read up on russia or indonesia or the phillipines or of course iraq u see at least some commentators and politician prepared to point out to people the nature of the conspiracy or whats going on whereas here we dont seem to be well served that way. What irish politician or commentator stated clearly and repeatedly during the troubles that say even the loyalist paramilitaries were controlled by the intelligence agencies? Yet numerous people must have been able to see that very well and just were too afraid to point it out i guess. I think maybe Fr's Denis Faul and Raymond Murray might be 2 honourable exceptions but i cannot think of too many more.
And I guess Sean McPhilemy with the Commitee.

by Readers of this blog Thu Sep 22, 2005 05:24

Good Job. Home safe. I don't see a problem here.

by rooster Thu Sep 22, 2005 16:51

nice one lads

by Al Thu Sep 22, 2005 20:20

Barry,
Im sorry but I just lost the bit of respect I had for you.

I wont even comment on the source you linked to because that should be obvious however please explain the following quote:

"long overdue book on the Dublin/Monaghan bombings by Loyalists from the UVF"

Your link, your source but it proves my point. Cheers Barry.

And before you quote teh bit that states aided by teh british. I was the one that said that.

Now, explain that quote and then provide a link that proves your point not mine ;)

by Barry Thu Sep 22, 2005 23:05

is the British army and their undercover wing .

Despite those bombs being constructed by senior British Army intelligence operatives operating out of the Castledillon army base , and transported , primed and detonated by Captain Irwin , Corporal McConnell and army intelligence operatives such as Robin Jackson and Billy Hanna ( active operatives and agents NOT mere informants) , you maintain the ridiculous fucking pretence that it was not a British army operation because 20 years later the UVF claimed it. Neither the UVF or UDA had the expertise to construct these bombs or carry out such attacks . That is a conclusive undisputed fact also .

Your position seems to be that every time these killers murdered someone they had a UVF hat on instead of a British army or RUC one, thereby exonerating the crown forces from responsibility . At the time of these murders it wasnt even a criminal offence to be a member of a loyalist group . British army officers are on record from that time clearly stating that membership of a loyalist paramilitary group was not even an impediment towards being recruited into the UDR . At one stage the UDA on the Shankill rd were able to openly patrol it in British army open topped landrovers .

These bombs originated from within the British army at a high level and were tansported and planted by serving members of the British crown forces , British army and RUC . 2 members of that gang , former soldier Albert "ginger" Baker and RUC sgt John Weir have gone public and claimed that these operations were done on the orders of British army intelligence (MI5) , were constructed by MI5 and that both MI5 and senior members of RUC special branch knew all about these killings before and after . Senior army officers such as Captains Maynard and Niarac , and others such as Major "bunny" Dearsley ran this deathsquad and ensured for years it had a free run .

Weir and Bakers accounts have been backed up by 2 senior members of British intelligence , Fred Holroyd and Colin Wallace . Yet you continue to maintain Im telling lies and that this is just a conspiracy to blacken the poor British army and your special branch chums .. Doesnt surprise me in the slightest .

Nor does it surprise me today that the open public meetings called by family members of those innocents killed in the 26 counties are monitored by a heavy Special branch presence outside , despite Fianna Fail and Fine Gael members attending . The unveiling of the monument to the victims of the Dublin bombings also saw the families being photographed , pointed at and scowled at by Special Branch monitors who were there en masse and overtly hostile to those poor people when they should have been on their knees begging forgiveness . At the first public memorial service in Dublins Pro Cathedral garda special Branch were at it again , writing down car number plates and photographing victims family members as they entered and left the cathedral . Shame on the dirty bastards . After refusing for years to release the files into the bombing for examination , as soon as Justice Barron announced hed be examining them they promptly disappeared from Garda custody . Do you deny that as well Al ? That the files into the biggest mass murder in the states history just vanished from Garda custody the second someon has received authorisation to examine them , despite the garda fiercely resisting this ? Because youve insulted peoples intelligence on this subject enough as it is so youd hardly be embarassed .

The residents of Basra today are demanding the removal of the local police commissioner on the grounds that hes an agent of British intelligence who has attempted to assist Britain in its cover up in the Basra affair .

When one thinks of what Commissioner Garvey , Sgt John McCoy and others got up to in not only the Dublin Monaghan murders but numerous others in the 26 counties , it appears that the modus operandi of British intelligence and their native recruited quislings in Ireland and Iraq is virtually identical .

by Barry Thu Sep 22, 2005 23:29

Despite this being totally illegal . And he wasnt even sacked despite it!!!!!!!! He carried on as a serving garda special branch officer for years after his admission !!!!!

Heres an article on this written by Don Mullan and British involvement in the bombings

Lets hear you rubbish him AL. Although youll mmore likely find a spelling mistake and then use it to rubbish the whole article .

http://www.relativesforjustice.com/publications/monaghan.htm

by Garda Adrian Mole Fri Sep 23, 2005 02:15

Al , do you have anything to say on the fact a senior member of Garda Special Branch could give a front page interview to an Irish Sunday newspaper fully admitting to being a paid undercover agent for a foreign military power for the previous 15 years and not even lose his job never mind being thrown in jail ?

What does this say about Garda Special branch but the entire state apparatus ? Is this not even slightly worrisome for you ?

by rooster Fri Sep 23, 2005 04:48

what a great phrase!!

by dictionary Fri Sep 23, 2005 07:41

the mechanisms by which the state is run . a fairly run of the mill phrase to anyone with a grasp of the english language .

by Al Fri Sep 23, 2005 14:11

Barry,
You really need to read your own links before speaking about tehm. It doesnt state anywhere that he was apaid British intelligence officer. It states, and I quote "'The Badger' was to supply intelligence on the IRA/INLA and his British counterparts were to reciprocate with intelligence on Loyalist terrorists who might cause a threat to the Republic" - He was a special branch detective. He worked with a foreign body to share intelligence. Whats so strange about that? That happens every day of the week across the world using europol and interpol. Are you suggesting that passing information onto another country about a terrorist organsiation is a bad thing? It means your a spy? Wake up Barry. Stop shouting foul against your beloved murderers.

As for the bombing I again have to quote from your link "Holroyd has stated publicly that he also believes Loyalists did not carry out the 1974 attack unaided". thats from Holroyd, the manyou claim planned and executed the bombing yet he is saying that Loyalists had help.

Again, please provide proof that it was the British directly that bombed Dublin, you cannot. They helped, I agree with you on that. I also agree that the Gardai at the time were naive and manipulated by the RUC. Yes I can say that but what your suggesting simple isnt true. The LVF bombed Dublin either with training from British soldiers or by using British soldiers but it was not sanctioned or carried out by the British army.

As for the Gardai, what else need I say? Sharing intelligence in order to gain intelligence on threats to Ireland is a normal practice. Back then the Gardai trusted the RUC and got royally fucked over but thats not being a traitor.

Now, either prove your original commenst or agree with me.

And BTW, you dont have to love the British to accept the truth just like you dont have to be in the IRA to hate them.

by Barry Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:14

Al , your fraudulent and highly cynical debating technique is quite apparent now . Not for the first time do you selectively quote simply one part of a single sentence provided in a link , twist it out of its context ,and use it to your own ends . You also simultaneously and quite blatantly ignore 99.99% of the rest of the case which has been presented . I wonder why is that , the constant deliberate lies and evasions from yourself ?

Firstly your laughable attempt to pass off Detective Sgt McCoys activities as perfectly normal and legal police work comparable to liasing with Interpol etc . Detective McCoy claims he first travelled to Lurgan after being approached by a civilian acquaintance , not as a result of any official request from a government agency . It was just from nameless "people" who wanted to meet "some sort of a policeman" . Are you trying to tell us this is normal police procedure Al ?

His meeting with British intelligence agents was totally clandestine , it took place in a carpark in the dead of night for fucks sake . The legal advice given to Don Mullan clearly states that a garda engaging in such a relationship with a foreign military agency without Governmental permission is acting outside the law .ie ILLEGALLY.

When this was reported in the press on numerous occasions at no stage did either An Garda Siochana or the southern government ever come forward and state that Detective McCoy was acting with official sanction , and whats more they still have not . Therefore it is quite clear that he simply was not .

Why have the government and the Garda authorities not stepped forward to clear Det McCoys name given the serious allegations against him which have been appearing in newspapers for decades now ? The man has become utterly notorious . Even former British intelligence officials publicly claim McCoy and many other Garda were and are British agents . Given the serious public implications here why do the authorities not just state he was acting with official authorisation ? The whole matter would be cleared up in seconds . Is the Gardas own representative "union" asleep here as well ? Even they arent defending him .

Are you seriously trying to con people into believing interagency police co-operation is done in this decidedly dodgy manner . Does normal everyday police work of this kind end up the subject of no less than THREE internal garda enquiries as well as being reported in the national newspapers as a national scandal !! Why would an interview with a garda carrying out routine sanctioned police work even be front page news in the first place ? Both the security correspondent for the Irish times and Don Mullan have stated that Detective McCoys unprecedented interview given to the newspapers was a calculated act of blackmail should any disciplinary procedures be initiated against him . If they didnt back off hed spill the beans on what a lot of other people got up to . Yet you very cynically portray all this as perfectly normal everyday stuff .

Dont insult peoples intelligence any further on this , its quite disgusting given the serious nature of the case .

You also deliberately ignore Det McCoys unnanounced visit to the home of Irish Army officer Trears in the company of British officer Peter Maynard . Why call unnanounced to an Army officers home if the visit was legally sanctioned ? Why not just request a meeting through official channels ? Again since neither the Garda or the government have stated McCoys activities were legal and sanctioned the only rational conclusion can be that this meeting , just like McCoys activities with British military intelligence was a clandestine affair .

Trears claims that the British officer Detective McCoy brought to his home explicity offered him substantial sums of money in return for passing on intelligence . McCoy by his own admission was passing on intelligence to the very same people , without any sanction or authorisation . Therefore it is perfectly safe to assume McCoys arrangement with these people would have been just the same as the arrangement Captain Maynard put to Captain Trears . And again , McCoy has been repeatedly and publicly accused of being a British agent to the point of notoriety and yet neither the Irish government or his superiors have ever stepped forward to claim he was acting with their sanction or knowledge . The gardas representative body arent fighting his corner either . Nor has he initiated any defamation proceedings against those who have accused him over the last 20 years .

If Detective McCoy and other Gardas activities were sanctioned why on earth would the Garda authorities fly Fred Holroyd to Dublin ,under an assumed name , as part of no less than three internal garda enquiries into McCoys activities ?

No Al , your claim that McCoy was involved in normal police duties is farcical . However its not as farcical as your claim that the British army supplied the three car bombs , but didnt sanction or plan the atrocity !!! You cling to the myth that it was purely a UVF operation despite the fact that the UVF publicly denied doing it for 20 years . They only issued a statement claiming it when Yorkshire television accused the British army in 1993 . The statement claimed they acted alone which is utterly ridiculous and simply an attempt to take the heat off their British masters .

By the way Captain Fred Holroyd has not been accused by me or anyone else as having been complicit in these atrocities . It is abundantly clear that Holroyd utterly opposed such activities which is why he was booted out of the British army in the first place . You obviously havent even read the information .

Its clear you havent because you still claim no British soldiers planted the bombs , when its been pointed out to you that serving members of the British army did do it , along with fellow RUC officers and British army agents . The fact that these people were also loyalists is quite besides the point , joint membership of the British army and loyalist paramilitaries was perfectly legal and even acceptable at the time . The British army is on record as stating such . The Mid Ulster Brigade of the UVF was controlled by the British Army in the first place , as those among their number have publicly attested to . Former British military intelligence officers have also come forward and backed these claims up , along with the claims that Detective McCoy and other Gardai were in the pay of British military intelligence .

One of the men who controlled this murder gang in Portadown was none other than Captain Maynard , whom Detective McCoy was bringing to peoples doors in order to recruit them into British military intelligence . This goes a long way to explaing why since the atrocities Garda Special Branch have harrassed the relatives of those murdered when attending memorial masses and services . It explains why the investigation into the bombings has been actively obstructed by Garda Special branch and why the files into the bombing suddenly disappeared , IN THEIR ENTIRETY , as soon as Justice Barron was given permission to examine them .

Why the harassment of the victims families , why the garda obstruction ?

by Al Sat Sep 24, 2005 15:40

Barry,
Exactly how often has the IRA admitted a brutal murder of a woman or child was carried out in its name? How many times have they denied a person is a member when they clearly are?

Hyou ever considered the fact that its intelligence gathering, its supposed to be clandestine. Its supposed to be secretive. It wouldnt really be worth a whole lot if every single Tom, Dick and Harry knew about it now would it?

I suppose you would like us to print informants names and their handlers on the website as well wouldnt you?

As for Europol and Interpol, not really the big boys they are now back then. The PSNI and the Gardai are still in contact and still intelligence sharing.

The only reasoning for your blatant stand on this subject is because it was your great IRA we were talking about, otherwise its paranoia. Im not sure which.

Now, Im off, you can continue being paranoid and looking over your shoulder. personally I stopped doing that a long time ago even though we all know the late, great IRA regularily follow Gardai and their families. But its OK when its them doing it, isnt it? Its ok for them to kill citizens of the republic and Gardai, isnt it?

by Barry Mon Sep 26, 2005 22:04

When Detective McCoy travelled north without any official sanction to meet MI5 he knew full well what he was doing was highly illegal . Thats why he acted clandestinely and well you know it too .

The Wyman Crinnion scandal was all over the news at that time http://irelandsown.net/spies.html .

However Al you seem to believe a garda can become a paid agent of British intelligence without compromising his job , never mind his country . Get fucked Al , thats not intelligence gathering , its criminal treason and you know it . Theres a huge difference between basic security and clandestinely becoming a paid agent for a foreign military power .

Furthermore McCoys own Taoiseach had expressed the opinion at the time that British intelligence had carried out the 1973 bombings and murders in Dublin , yet here he was meeting those same murderers regardless . This scumbag wasnt doing his job , he was committing a crime .

I have not once mentioned the gardas tailing and harrasment of republicans on this thread , never mind complained about it . What I have certainly pointed out though is the fact that Garda Special Branch have stalked ,harassed and monitored the relatives of those killed in the 1974 massacre as well as others like the Ludlow family . One can only assume its because MI5 have told them to do it in order to frighten them off . What danger do those poor peple pose to anyone FOR FUCKS SAKE ?

You have not responded to any of this despite being being repeatedly asked to explain the gardas behaviour towards these people . You instead have expressed the opinion that its ok for Garda members to become British military intelligence agents on the grounds they are fighting republicans . It is unsurprising then that MI5 agents in Garda special branch have deliberately obstructed the investigation into mass murder on the streets of Dublin Monaghan , Dundalk , Castleblaney , Kildare and other places by their fellow MI5 agents and their MI5 handlers . It is no surprise that all the garda files into the bombings , IN THEIR ENTIRETY , have disappeared once justice Barron was cleared to look at them .

If your flippant and cynical attitude towards the massacre of your fellow citizens is typical of Garda Special branch , then its no surprise either that the collective term for so many garda is "filth" . Because their activities with British military intelligence and their collusion in this case is certainly worthy of the term . Only filth harass , stalk and monitor dozens of bereaved families attending mass for their urdered relatives .

FILTH

by macavity Tue Sep 27, 2005 02:03

I just saw for the first time Thaddeus O'Sullivan's 2000 movie "honest and decent" starring amongst others Kevin Spacey of "the usual suspects" and "american beauty" fame, it seemed to me to be quite obviously based on the life of a Dublin criminal Martin Cahill (who was assasinated in the mid 1990s) and bore the nickname "the general". When his criminal activities became too obvious to hide, and his little diabetic fingers went into the wrong parlours, I do recall that the gardaí could do nothing more impressive than "stick to him like flies on shite".

I'm not a member of SF or any of the other republican groups, but the feelings of intrusion, and intimidatory policing tactics expressed in above comments are very understandable to me. Because that was exactly how the Gardaí "at their highest level" operated with "reason" or without.

filthy indeed because they never put him away
-did they? & it took Veronica Guerin's murder to give them enough evidence to put away his "big man" sucessor. (another movie that does the "explain the south of Ireland to us" rounds)

I hope for the sake of the poor neighbours of these "big men" Al's generation of plod who make detective are a bit more succesful. Maybe we'll read a feature article and see more court cases and less horsies and hearses.

by Al Tue Sep 27, 2005 02:29

Filth Barry? Really? This coming from a person that worships terrorists? Terrorists that have killed over a 1000 people. Really Barry, do you honestly expect a response to such double standards?

Now, prove your allegations and explain why Gardai survelliance is terrible but your heroes actions so great or stop wasting my time.

by rooster Tue Sep 27, 2005 04:23

However Al you seem to believe a garda can become a paid agent of British intelligence without compromising his job , never mind his country .

-have you got proof? No? I did'nt think so!!




"Theres a huge difference between basic security and clandestinely becoming a paid agent for a foreign military power."

-not really barry, the security services have employed moles within the IRA for decades and this has saved hundreds of lives.



"You have not responded to any of this despite being being repeatedly asked"

-you don't answer other peoples questions so get off your high horse.

by Detective Badger Tue Sep 27, 2005 06:03

Yet again we have An Garda Siochana and a mid ulster loyalist/ British security forces member teaming up together (Al and rooster you make a lovely couple).

And yet again we have a garda refusing to answer legitimate questions about Dublin Monaghan . Al, your response to Barry is quite pathetic . Hes provided you with some very disturbing facts about the Gardas role in this case which you refuse to answer on the grounds hes a republican .

First you demand he provides proof , which he does in a number of links . Then you say you refuse to respond to the proof he provided because hes a republican (when youve already responded to him on many occasions ?? ) Youre a feckin hypocrite Al who simply wont address the issue .

And then you go on to demand he provides more proof (why , I thought you refuse to respond to him becuse of his political background ?) Is it all just too uncomfortable Al , because its looking to me like you simply dont have an answer .

However Im not a member of any republican organisation and Id quite like to hear a gardas opinion on why members of the Dublin and Monaghan bereaved have been continually harassed and stalked by garda special branch . I find it very disturbing news indeed .

And why did the Dublin Monaghan files go missing from Garda custody recently ?

Can you tell us your opinions on this Al please . Your usually not so shy .

by moriarty Tue Sep 27, 2005 14:15

Under the current irish constitution and legislation, any secret service activity or operations of the Irish state are not transparent or accountable.

Unique in the European Union -

# There is no publically named director of intelligence.
# There is no accountable procedure where that director might answer questions in the Dail, Senate or public inquiry.
# There is no declared or accountable budget.
# There is no legislative prerequisite of disclosure, no "20/30/50/60/100 year rule".
# There is no evidence that the covert wings of the State either of gardaí or armed forces are self-sufficient if facing the same tasks their equivalent bodies in other EU states do. We might wonder for a moment how many members of the Gardaí are fluent in the languages Chinese, Urdu, Arabic or Africa and can properly monitor criminal or terrorist activity within the jurisidiction of Ireland
without recourse to assistance from other extra-state entities.
[if that is the case - there has been no accountable or transparent procedure to effect ensure such co-operation is legal under national or inter-national law]

******************************************************

Now for reasons of the development of the Irish state and its peculiar constitution, many functions of intelligence agencies which in other comparable countries would have seen the development of a civilian based agency, have been restricted to the Gardaí and have focussed on the monitoring of "subversive" elements most notably connected to Irish republicanism and cross border activity. The main party of Irish republicanism is now the 2nd largest democractically elected party in the Northern Ireland and is represented in the Dail. There has been as of yesterday confirmation that the IRA have committed to solely peaceful political activity.
which brings one to the question, what are they doing now? But for various of the reasons outlined above, no TD or Senator may ask that question because of -

accountability
transparency.

*******************************************************

I put to all of you, that if you knew the truth of Irish history 1965 to 1975 (the last 40 to 30 years) you would all regardless of political prejudice be very uncomfortable and in many cases shocked.
But it is my firm belief that such information must some day be in the public domain, as it is my firm belief that the irish state has passed the stage of its "sovreign" and "independent" development when it should have dealt properly with these questions for the public interest.

by Al Tue Sep 27, 2005 14:32

Ah now I see the problem. What barry calls proof I call Republican propoganda.

No he hasnt provided any proof, he has provided allegations all of which come from Republican websites. These websites dont even make the same allegations as Barry does.

Barry claims that it was the British army on its own that bombed Dublin/Monoghan. No terrorist organisation was involved. The person making the allegation must provide proof, not the defence. His links dont back him up, they claim there was co-operation and some soldiers/UDR men may have been involved but there is a big difference between that and what Barry stated.

Personal opinions of those without knowledge is not proof, its hearsay.

And why can non-republican opinions not be offered to back Barry up? Is it because they are the only 2 parties that need PR against the Gardai?

Please, I see allegations against Gardai all the time, mostly on this site. I also see allegations that I personally know are false. Theres never any proof to back the allegations up but proof seems to become a burden for the defence when its Gardai involved.

Now, provide proof of the claims that Barry made, not alternative allegations but the ones by Barry.

Also, you moan that I dont respond because Barry is a Republican, well I dont see him answering my questions.

Now, if you want to keep the debate about Dublin/Monoghan going I suggest you post in the thread dedicated to that subject.

As for Gardai being paid agents. Again, proof please. I answered quite clearly, no evidence he was paid. No evidence the information was one way only. Its intelligence, its clandestine, if it wasnt then the IRA would have killed a lot more people. Thats why it bothers Barry so much.

by :-) Tue Sep 27, 2005 14:59

and find out all the answers and come back and write a decent article for the newswire and it might get approved for a feature!

by rooster Wed Sep 28, 2005 17:18

"the mechanisms by which the state is run . a fairly run of the mill phrase to anyone with a grasp of the english language"


Its also a loaded phrase used almost exclusively by republican politicians and their supporters. LOL dictionary/barry/badger

by detective badger Thu Sep 29, 2005 01:02

it sounds like youre loaded every time you come on to this site . never once have you posted anything remotely articulate , sensible or interesting . all you do is repeat peoples posts word for word and say "wrong".

waste of breath time and space .

by rooster Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:14

"never once have you posted anything remotely articulate , sensible or interesting . all you do is repeat peoples posts word for word and say "wrong"."


your wrong, but heh at least I only post under the one name, can you say that?

by Detective Badger Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:29

Indeed every post here which asks for garda accountability is the work of none other than myself , under a wide variety of aliases , dictionary ,Barry ,Badger , Betty and last but not least Al . .

All these personas are merely part of my apparatus .

by anti war bore Fri Sep 30, 2005 15:35

With regards to the 2 "heroes" rescued from an Iraqi jail, there is no doubt about British illegality in conflict zones. They do as they please! ,and know they can get away with it because America will allways back them up.
Iraq is going to be raped pillaged and destroyed by the coaliton forces.Is the life of a child worth a barrel of oil?. I would hate to be an Iraqi with the way the british and american forces are conducting themselves as "freedom fighters!" .. Iraq is a roast sitting on the dinner table and every parastitic nation is going to carve a large slice for themselves...I hope the 2 British hereos are happy tucking into sunday dinner with their kids knowing full well they left some children without thier dad's

by Barry Fri Sep 30, 2005 19:42

Very good link here with personal testimonies from bereaved citizens of both occupied nations

http://www.serve.com/pfc/misc/bogbasra.html

by rooster Sat Oct 01, 2005 20:00

Barry, stop posting links from biggoted sectarian organisations, I checked that link out and the website had no information on IRA murders or the many thousands murdered by the Iraqi secret police in other words it was completely one sided and devoid of impartiality.

by anti war bore Sat Oct 01, 2005 21:48

everyone is entitiled to their opinion, but there is nothing bigoted or sectarian about family members of civilians murdered by the british army giving first hand accounts of their loss. You would'nt expect them to have V:E celebrations in the bogside or celebrate the queen of englands coronation ...not before and certainly not after..

by Barry Sun Oct 02, 2005 17:27

The link is not to a sectarian bigooted organisation . Its to the Pat Finucane Centere a human rights organisation named after a murdered human rights solicitor .

You boring pedantic timewasting fool .

by rooster Tue Oct 04, 2005 22:51

And instead of defending your link why must you lower the tone to attacking me personally? You were trying to provide a link that showed "personal testimonies from bereaved citizens of both occupied nations"
I looked at the links and struggled to find any evidence or mention of IRA atrocities os any situations that resulted in injured/dead security services, protestants, unionists or any other groups that were not from "your community"
In that way it was nakedly sectarian and bigotted.

by rooster Tue Oct 04, 2005 22:54

Thats a good one!
When someone only defends the human rights of one side of a conflict then they have behaved in a partisan manner and can be seen as legitimate targets by the combatants of the "other side"

by seedot Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:19

-When someone only defends the human rights of one side of a conflict then they have behaved in a partisan manner and can be seen as legitimate targets by the combatants of the "other side"


Does this mean that any solicitor or Human Rights organisation that does not speak up for both sides is a legitimate target?

Those civil rights workers in Alabama (no attempt to stand up for the rights of white supremacists) - legitimate targets?

When Amnesty speaks out against Turkish or Syrian repression of Kurds - legitimate targets?

When the OO defends the right to march, without talking of the right not to have triumphalism on your street - legitimate targets?

by Barry Wed Oct 05, 2005 13:46

running around Basra armed to the teeth with no explanation

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/0CE71C28-C465-45AA-8674-D3C870893C3B.htm

Its exactly the same shite they were at here . Counter gangs to cause civilan deaths and sectarian hatred .

by rooster Wed Oct 05, 2005 15:28

And instead of defending your links why must you lower the tone to attacking me personally? You were trying to provide a link that showed "personal testimonies from bereaved citizens of both occupied nations"
I looked at the links and struggled to find any evidence or mention of IRA atrocities os any situations that resulted in injured/dead security services, protestants, unionists or any other groups that were not from "your community"
In that way it was nakedly sectarian and bigotted.

Go on then defend your links, if you can?

by Barry Wed Oct 05, 2005 17:10

The PFC is a human rights organisation which highlights STATE abuses of human rights . It works closely with British Irish Rights Watch which has highlighted cases such as the UDR4 and the murder of Billy Wright in the Maze Prison .

If you wish to highlight further cases were protestants/ loyalists/ security force members have been murdered and falsely imprisoned by the STATE , or killed with major suspicion of the STATES collusion I suggest you get in touch . Because they will highlight them without a shred of doubt .

The reason they highlight STATE skullduggery , rather than NON-STATE-SPONSORED skullduggery is because the STATE is the organ which investigates it . It usually doesnt investigate or highlight its own crimes , hence the need for a human rights organisation in the first place . Its very simple and has nothing at all to do with sectarianism .

You are simply a bigot who is programmed to instantly attack anything you percieve as Catholic which accuses the state of wrongdoing . It is instinctive and you cant help it , no matter how foolish it makes you sound . Your crazed accusations of naked sectarian bigotry against these people are quite sad , and evoke a strange kind of sympathy for your personal plight .

by Mark C - Teacher Wed Oct 05, 2005 17:38

"If you wish to highlight further cases w[h]ere protestants/ loyalists/ security force members..."

I thought they only highlight state murders. Perhaps you should delete protestants/ loyalists or else add in Catholic/ Republican.

Just a note.

Mark Conroy.
And please, if something can read: it is, you should spell it as it's, not its - something that you haven't managed to do in you 32CSM comments. Again, just a note.

by Mark C - Teacher Wed Oct 05, 2005 17:42

The person who originally wrote this report gave the address of Al Jazeera as aljazeera.com. This is the address of a different news company and has no affiliation with the Al Jazeera news channel.

From Al Jazeera . com:

Important note: Aljazeera Publishing and Aljazeera.com are not associated with the controversial Arabic Satellite Channel known as Jazeera Space Channel TV station whose website is Aljazeera.net.

The English language service for the News Station is http://english.aljazeera.net

Al Jazeera International is launching soon.

Mark Conroy.

by Mark C - Teacher Wed Oct 05, 2005 18:04

Rooster,

I think I agree with most of what you say above, but not what you say about Al Jazeera. Having read a lot about the channel (many articles and a very informed biography) and a decent amount of literature about the Middle East in general, I have to say that I think Al Jazeera is probably the most objective mainstream channel. They can' t but be with the amount of hassle that they get from all sides of the debates they get mixed up in. Even if you translate their tagline from Arabic to English it reads: "The Opinion and the other Opinion". I know this could be Orwellian Newspeak but I certainly don' t feel it is. I have not checked out the links provided by Barry (or whatever pseudonym he used) so I won't comment on them.

Mark Conroy.

by Barry Wed Oct 05, 2005 18:49

WTF is that about ?

As for " I thought they only highlight state murders. Perhaps you should delete protestants/ loyalists or else add in Catholic/ Republican "

That is my point entirely . The British government are a lot less likely to have commited human rights abuses against its own soldiers and operatives . Therefore the PFC isnt sectarian in the first place as this person has alleged .

by Mark C Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:34

Yes, but protestant and loyalists (ie civilians) killing people cannot be considered STATE murders.

Mark

by Barry Thu Oct 06, 2005 13:49

If it turns out the state imported weapons from SAfrica and gave them to loyalists to kill people with . And if the state told the loyalists to kill people and even helped them do it , and covered it up afterwards . And if the people pulling the triggers were state agents themselves being directed by FRU army intelligence and Special Branch . And if state ministers denounced Pat Finucane as a terrorist sympathiser in the House of commons before it sent its agents like Ken Barret out to shoot him .

State sanctioned , state armed , state directed , killers even paid agents of the state . Such things are actually state killings . Maybe you were too busy checking someones punctuation when this dirty washing was being aired in public ?

by rooster Thu Oct 06, 2005 21:58

these killings were, what twenty/thirty years ago, killings in a dirty war were everyone got stuck in. Stop trying to elevate certain killings to some kind of special status when every death was a tragedy.

We should have had a truth and reconciliation commission where all groups "came clean" about what they did and did'nt do and why.

This would have stopped all this bickering and bitching and the past could be left there, in the past. End of lecture.

by Beechmount Fri Oct 07, 2005 03:51

If our government wants to rule us with trust we need to be sure it wont kill us again .

Deaths arent just tragedies , they are crimes . At least let us identify the criminals ?

by rooster Sat Oct 08, 2005 00:20

You will not be getting these details, all sides will continue to hide their dirty laundry.

by jeezabel & elijah Sat Oct 08, 2005 01:23

the dirty linen is where all start with.
Who washed the dirty linen?
Do we ever ever want a society again to flourish where the laundry is so cursed?

by rooster Sun Oct 09, 2005 01:25

or is that a bit too revolotionary

by surprise Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:46

Well what do you know the guy the British send to investigate the two undercover SAS men disguised as Arab "terrorists who were obviously part of the campaign to create a civil war, has died under mysterious circumstances. However according to a Ministry of Defense spokesman, his death was "not due to hostile action" nor to natural causes.

It appears he died sometime ago back in Oct 05. His name was captain Ken Masters.

by Washington Irving Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:24

Well, actually they weren't disguised as terrorists, otherwise they wold be wearing more than a headscarf and not carrying standard issue SAS equipment, which is kind of a big give away. At least they may have reconsidered waving a Union Jack at the checkpoint.

Don't you think if they were for some inexplicable reason trying to foment civil war, they'd rather go down the route of getting plants to infiltrate and manipulate dissident factions? Or are you really suggesting that everyone in Basra is a happy law-abiding bunny that couldn't possibly have a gripe with the invasion?

Please only make allegations where you have solid evidence and the skills to be able to interpet it accurately.