How Cú Chulainn's head, golden shield and arm came to be at Tara

by butyric fermentation Tue Sep 20, 2005 09:28

all that'd be left of him is the gold shield, and no doubt someone had the luck of finding that and selling it for grubs.
And this is how you promote an ecological alternative to a motorway is it?

by CZ Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:02

The issue is Tara. The story is one of many that makes Tara what it is.

Problem is that people like you think that saving our heritage is only a tool, a banner for environmentalism. Heritage can and should stand on it's merits and not be used as a cover for other agendas.

Do you think Tara should be used as a tool to fight motorways, or can you accept that it should be preserved on its own merits?

The reality is that there is a motorway on the plans, and the question that remains is can it be moved away from Tara.

by butyric fermentation Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:48

but its utterly crap to quote a bit of goidelic legend in translation about some man (probably a right gurrier) whose head and arm and (hello?) golden shield are there in defence of what Tara is was or will be thought to mean by Irish people.
Now on the subject of that shield, was it gold plated or the solid variety? If it was the solid variety then where did he get the money? Did he sell some slaves? And considering the heavy weight and softness of gold it doesn't really seem like a useful weapon does it? Now what was the standard of gold plating in the millenium before Christ? were they up to light alloys? Were there many druids pursuing the electrocatylitics popular study option at royal tara ? No they bloody weren't.

The gold shield is a lie. Utter crap to keep the kids happy at a night-time story telling. And if the shield is a big porkie, then chances are the whole rest of the legend is as well. The whole story is polluted with other european myths and heavy dosis of christian martyr stereotype. The remains of man named after a doggie are just likely to be under the ILAC centre.

REALISM

So, you've got a fine hefty motorway planned for many good economic and infrastructural reasons, and there are many fine alternatives which will serve the needs of ireland in the future and be the pride n' joy, but because the lobby opposed to the motorway seems so fond of epic, useless contests and mythical remembrance which didn't even work when expropriated by the crypto-fascist state in the early 20th century you're losing your campaign.


Do yourselves and all of Ireland a favour.
Talk about the future.

by CZ Tue Sep 20, 2005 14:55

The reason the campiagn is in trouble is easy to make out - mixed motivations, loosely gathered under a vague 'Save Tara' umbrella.

The problem has been when asked if the M3 can't go through the valley, what the solution was there would be half a million alternative soltions, or even worse, silence.

Rail for Meath is great. And a 2+1 would be as good as a motorway, particular with the weaving route the M3 has at the moment.

However, there is going to be an M3 and the best you can hope for is that it is moved and that it doesn't inhibit reopening the rail line through a lack of bridges, amongst other issues.

You see, no matter whether Cuchulainn existed or not. It is the association that matters, and the reality that Tara is a resource for recreation, one of only 2 places close to Navan that you can take a walk around which is family friendly. Both of those sites (Tara and Dalgan Park) will be affected by this route so the road should be moved. Dalgan will loose 30 acres+.

My appeal is that whether you give a toss about Tara or not that it should be appreciated that it is an irreplaceable feature and record of our past, mythically and historically and culturally. Your angle seems to be if there is a road, then you don't give a damn where it goes, and so what if it destroys priceless assets in the process.

Pity - your views will suit the 'crypto-fascist state'.

by justTooExciting Tue Sep 20, 2005 18:13

So much talk about how Ireland needs to prepare for its glorious now and even more spectacular FyooCHA. But of course; that's where it's at. The Future---bow down and praise the deity of times to come.

Charge! Bulldoze those sleepy hills and vales---open space is SO overrated. How nice to shake hands through climate-controlled windows without ever stepping out from one's McMansion. And lets get bigger, BIGGER vehicles to swallow even more petrol, and Giant, Cú Chulainn-like motorways to squeeze in every last vehicle that can be puzzled onto the tarmac. And let's pay once, twice, perpetually for the joy of crowding on to the uber-road with all our neighbors. Let's warm up the atmosphere with black top, and fumes, and Road Rage. Fun, fun times. Let's welcome the days of allergies, and chronic fatigue, rushing from jobs to kids' games. We'll be so busy spending and earning and paying that there's no time to wonder what the government 's up to. Oh - think how smoothly every little bureaucratic scheme, every slick pocket-lining initiative will run - Heaven on Earth.

And the little snot-nosed whiners moaning about heritage and environment can dry up and blow away. And they can take their ideas of sacredness, of identity, of learning and tradition, of well-being, and hide these away. Bury them deep into another barrow, where centuries from now another generation will dig with their even bigger earth movers. Maybe they will find a shield of gold, or gold-plate, or maybe just stumble on one of these rags of an archaic value system only to wonder what sort of humanity cared about the soul when there is Money and time to fritter away.

by The Tipper Truck Tue Sep 20, 2005 22:32

I LOVE INDYMEDIA!

Just when you think no-one cares!

by butyric fermentation Tue Sep 20, 2005 23:16

Important enough to wonder how to motivate a large section of Irish society to support a new motorway route and cultural and heritage sustainable development of the site, in the process giving archaelogists jobs and the ILAC crew something interesting to do at the weekend.

& that is in essence the problem, Lansdowne Market research have found that the most unpopular minister of a government which registers higher dissatisfaction than satisfaction, is the minister of transport.

And in the lessons on Cu Chulain the fighting whippet doggie man of ulster aren't going to convince the ILAC voters that _supporting a new road_ is better than opposing the proposed road.

I love the place, been a long time since I visited it, i organised a kicking rave there many years ago, all the drivers had their registration plates noted by the local plod, for looking a bit too druid/dredd/informed on the hidden mysteries stuff and those without cars had to hire a bus to drogheda to get home which they did eventually.

You have made several tactical mistakes which reveal inexperience on how politics work on national level. But they're not mistakes you can't repair soon enough. You see "the crypto-fascist state" has been moribund, I sometimes call it the "eire state". It started dying when mary robinson got "the very special job" and I did the rave on Tara.

Its now completely dead and gone well past butyric fermentation which any non-political leaving cert student will tell you - smells cheesy.

If you don't see that, spend a few afternoons in the "vintage shopping mall" the ILAC.

You unless I am very slow and dim, are a broad based coalition of interests who *support* a new transport solution and a new *state investment* in the Tara heritage. If you'd studied business at Harvard you would have got a business plan together by now an shown how terribly profitable your long term solution was.

Anyway, "the people of Ireland / Eire / doggie man" will be proud of their train / tram / cycle path / long motorway and interpretive centre.

bless em. its all about the people. Sure if they knew what anarchy was about they'd vote for it.

by CZ Wed Sep 21, 2005 08:44

Fair points there, but the druid stuff doesn't catch most peoples imagination. Maybe Cú Chulainn doesn't either but now that new film has been announced http://www.tarasos.com/index.php?id=163&type=event then he / it is a topic coming tin to the public eye.

For the record, the Irish Times will no longer print letters about Tara (they say every campaign has a lifespan on the page and Tara is dead), the local papers in Meath will only print NRA propaganda such as last weeks article about 'M3 finds don't reveal anything significant' on the front page of the Chronicle and the national press don't see any new(s) to print.

The reality, and I live minutes away from Tara isd this. The road is going ahead. Most people in Meath want it.

My analagy is this: You have a child with a toy. You take the toy off the child and the child will flip. But if you tell the child to go somewhere else and play with the toy the will be happy enough to do that.

The toy (M3) shouldn't be in the valley in the first place - it goes out of it's way to get in there. The only option most likely to work with people is the rerouting.

Would you not consider giving a dig out?!

by butyric fermentation Wed Sep 21, 2005 13:23

eh thats exactly my point, a lot of the publicity the campaign has generated around itself is un-interesting to the widest possible public in whose name and interest the government make decisions to build motorways.

& a lot of the early foolish tactics to stoke national concern are still remembered. I'm not surprised its harder to get letters printed, do note, this indymedia collective (the main campaign panel you've publicised on) only voted to introduce "history and heritage" as a category in the last month.

a heritage issue always starts in "human interest" if it is to gain momentum it must be linked to "financial interest" or the widest it goes is "arts & academia". You have long got to that stage, a very long list of learned scholars across the planet have joined you, yet not a single one has written something along the lines of:-

"The madser gouger nordie with the dogs was using a shield covered in gold paint"

Because thats not the way academia wins credibility. Unfortuanately your academic support circle though global is *not influential* (& you could even admit has provoked contempt from mainstream politics on several ocassions) nor is it even well thought of by ordinary tax payers who see more glamour and value for money in rocket science. That leaves you with the other lobby - "arts".

A movie of Cuchulain will reduce all your efforts to a "oh he was massive as well as mad a proper liam neeson meets mick Collins but taller". & in that your hopes will be forever buried in the credits list of an another "irish celtic tiger pride" movie product which alas, the government you are opposing created. Its one of their main tools of national psychological support.

Honestly if you are to delay this process until change of government, you have to build the financial alternative, every archaeologist agrees with you, no way they're not going to. Every druid does too. Great that's less than 1% of the population. You need a lot more, despite the "majority of the public being against the dig when polled" you are not sure they are "in favour of your alternative". You've only got potential new government support of the greenies on 6% voting intention, and they've a few other issues which are important to be dealt with at the table of decision making when the time comes.

What you need, & do take this on board, is :-
1) a financial scandal.(not so easy)
2) a chance discovery of a well preserved oxen leather shield with a drop fo gold paint still visible.
3) the subsequent exposure of said relic as a fake.
4) a crop circle in the shape of Tara in the strong farming fields of Meath.


http://www.tarasos.com/
http://www.savetara.com/

by CZ Wed Sep 21, 2005 13:57

Valid points.

However, there has already been media reports of vested interests and a FF candidate in the last by-election withdrew because of links to dunlop..

Hasn't helped.

Without a smoking gun, you have to use what you have to fight it.

The works are ongoing. The NRA have refused to stop digging, and the legal team didn't want to show their hands early by seeking an injunction.

Which means there is digging at the moment. To quote yer man rumsfeld, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you would like to have.

In no way do we have the army we would like to have, but at least we have some volunteers.

The old tactics from the start have repercussions, you are right. However, I was not involved in any campiagn back then, and those of us involved now, are involved for the first time, and are involved knowing that the cause is a) unlikely to succeed and b) not popular. There are no celebraties amongst us, not even the well known faces from previous Tara campaigns!

But that doesn't mean that we will not keep trying. We have (just to mention) a number of bands lined up for a gig at the start of November in Navan (well known names), and we plan a number of activities to highlight the stupidity of the current plan.

As this ground has previously been covered (kind of) then the only difference is that we are appealing to the local populace directly, and that we are presenting an alternative that cannot be painted 'anti-M3'. Again, it's a plan not gauranteed to succeed but it is the only plan at the moment.

And it is worth giving a shot, because at least the court case is going to start with some degree of activity happening rather than having a completely indifferent public ignoring it.

This is the last throw of the dice. Forget about 'direct action'. It doesn't engender public symapthy, and when that starts, it is already too late to stop these projects. It is now or never, and the only hope of success is a solution which will not take an M3 away from the people up in Meath that want the M3, but will still Save TARA.

by Photo Wed Sep 21, 2005 21:15

Is this..

The real issue is this

by stardust Wed Sep 21, 2005 21:25

The party's not over 'til the fat lady sings.

by Better Effort Thu Sep 22, 2005 01:16

More photos on Tara SOS

The Story

by butyric fermentation Thu Sep 22, 2005 02:04

An Acre is 4840 squared yards or 0.40468564224047 of a hectare.
the size of the interchange is 28 acres.

or 28 x 0.40468564224047 hectares which is more or less 11.33119798273316 allowing for the little huts where the workers make tea during construction and where the casual driver will throw bags of rubbish when the motorway is done.

Stephens Green park in dublin is about 9 hectares in size. The interchange in that picture above is 2 hectares larger than stephens Green, larger enough to build a terrace of average sized middle class houses. Or if you're not familiar with Dublin's parks or ireland's middle class, the interchange being planned on a site of undisputed archaelogical value to Ireland and Europe, is about twize the size of of the Paris theme park "mini france" at Elancourt. Or about the same size as the central "lung" of London, Hyde, Green and St James Parks without Buckingham Palace (where the english queen lives).

Or if you're american its just over twice the size of Washington's mall. (and yes buckingham palace is really small)

by CZ Thu Sep 22, 2005 08:36

can be made visual?

by butyric fermentation Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:23

there are several ways you can go on that. You take a map of said areas of "popular area size" and superimpose proposed development. Its often the problem with maps, and photos of areas, anyone not familiar with Tara looking at the photo above will imagine scale (its neurological) on the size of the workers (7 visible) and the church. It seems much small than it is, because we "foreshorten" and underestimate the area of the fields.

You could keep such maps in the minister Cullen's portfolio and compare the Tara proposals to aDublin Airport map, since he just squeezed himself into the news this morning, asking for higher airport charges. & most interestingly the first man to oppose him is Mr O'Leary of Ryanair (very popular with the masses [they're proud of him] - described in FF circles as the unacceptable face of capitalism). There's an angle, all developed states are being asked (by the french side of the millenium goals) to support air-travel tax to fund aid to africa and the third world, O'Leary refused, as did FF, coz they only spend money on themselves, you could push that and compare the area of proposed development at Tara, with that at dublin airport, with the size of Stephens Green with the area of land Haughey sold to Dublin airport, and then you'd be right on the fianna heritage trail.